At what cost normalcy?

[TGMarla]

Going to my car the other night, my neighbor who had seen me dressed as
a woman befor, decided to confront me.He called me many names but the one
that I remember most was a f-----in sissy.


This post got me thinking. This guy is, by societal standards, "normal". His reaction, unfortunately, is the all-too-common response people (mostly men) have when confronted with the transgender world.

We here have often stated that the road to social acceptance would be to educate the public to who and what we really are. But in this case, it's safe to say that all the enlightenment, education, and social acceptance in the world wouldn't change his mind. Some people just won't ever learn, and don't aspire to. Even though the gay community has gained so much acceptance in this world, this guy would still refer to them as "faggots" and "queers", and feel that he was above them. Thus his response to a man crossdressing is to call him a "sissy".

Is this the cost of being "normal"? Does one subscribe to the doctrine of intolerance and ignorance, even unknowingly, in order to stay "normal"? Is it only people who experience and live alternative lifestyles that aspire to tolerance and acceptance of those who are not exactly like themselves? Even people who are non-confrontational, peaceful people generally do not accept those in the transgendered world. My own neighbors, and my own family, while decent, wonderful people, simply would not accept it if I were to appear before them in a dress and heels. At what cost is this normalcy?

[LisaM]

Katie B,

I agree with you.:thumbsup:

[Samantha B L]

Not everyone reacts the way that guy did,Marla. I used to walk around the area where I lived not long after high school with my hair in top knots,updos,boofoos and beehives. Actually,people weren't hostile but they did holler double edged remarks standing there washing their cars and I got an ocaisional catcall. But I do think that some people are hostile to LGBT and TG/TS/CD. I don't know how many or if it's most people who are this way. I do think that many people are decent about it but they probably take the attitude that "if it was my kid I wouldn't stand for it"

[TGMarla]

You say, Marla, "My own neighbors, and my own family, while decent, wonderful people, simply would not accept it if I were to appear before them in a dress and heels." Something wrong there. Either they're decent, wonderful people and will accept... by definition - that's what decent people do! Or they won't accept, and your description of them as decent and wonderful is wrong somewhere.


Now, now. It's not open-season on my family just because I made this comment. They largely have not been exposed to the TG world, and know nothing of my crossdressing. It would be a serious shock to them, and it's a shock that I choose to not give them. They are decent people, and simply because they would have an adverse reaction does not negate this fact.

[Gerard]

What I have learned is that a lot of people can't handle uncertainty well. They want a well ordered world where they just have to do as told.

These people get upset and angry if their world view is distorted because it makes them feel uncertain and insecure.

The second thing that seems to happen in the event you describe, is something I've noticed in our culture, namely male-ness is defined as not-female. I think it also used to be the other way around, but feminism seems to have made a real change there.

So it seems that if someone can't handle uncertainty and comes across a male with female looks or behaviour, they get upset and aggressive to try and restore their view of the world.

I think the best way to respond is by accusing them of having a problem because they are uncertain about their own manliness.
It might not be the case, but the behaviour does seem to stem from surpressing uncertainty so I think it will hit close enough to home to shut a lot of people up.

[Sarah Doepner]

It's hard to come up with a single curve to cover peoples reactions because part of it is their level of involvement. If someone is a total stranger they, like the CD, has the shroud of being anonymous and can get away with just about anything with no real emotional committment. If they have never concerned themselves with the fine distinctions between TS/TG/CD and the rest of the GLBT community, I would assume they would simplify things so they could get something verbal out before the chance is lost. My goodness the world needs to know how each idiot feels about things! However a neighbor or family member should have more of a stake in what they see and experience. We would hope that after years of living with or near someone and learning their good traits that discovering a different side would result in a little thought before they react.

From the CD side, I don't see the benefit in exposing this kind of information to my 80+ year old in-laws, so I don't share. Similarily, my conservative neighbors don't need to know but if it happens I hope to be able to engage them in discussion and not let the result be determined by an initial knee-jerk reaction. Strangers, unless they get in my face, will probably remain strangers and may be beyond my ability to enlighten.

I don't know for sure what to say about the orginal post where it was a neighbor who yelled at the CDer. I hope that it wasn't a neighbor who had been close in the past. It would be a shame to have a long and trusting relationship die because of this. Now that I've tried to simplify things, I have to fall back on reality. Just like each of us, the rest of the world is made up of individuals with their own unique take on things. That's what makes it so damn complex and frustrating I guess.

[docrobbysherry]

What I hate, is all the voices yelling, "pervert"!
And THOSE R just in MY HEAD!:eek:

[Gerard]

What I hate, is all the voices yelling, "pervert"!
And THOSE R just in MY HEAD!:eek:

Those are voices you should try to do something about, as it has to do with your own self image.

I've tried to figure out what the word is supposed to mean, and I mostly come up with that it's subjective. It seems mostly related to behaviour that people see as well outside their norms and morals.

So to see yourself as a pervert, you have to ask yourself what your norms and morals are and if you maybe want to change them.

I found that this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perversion makes an interesting distinction between deviant behaviour and perversion and how for example peoples perceptions of homosexuality have changed over time.

Deviant behaviour is like some people are left handed, even if the average is right handed. It can mean anything non-average.

I'm not sure of a good definition of perversion, but to me it seems to mean behaviour that harms people, themselves or others, physically or mentally. At least that's what I can come up with here on the spot.

[Granny Gray]

Oft times a male who makes a "show" of hyper-masculinity has a deep seated irrational fear inside. Seeing another male dressed as a woman touches that fear. He may react and in reacting to his fear that he may also be a bit of a "sissy" in spite of his overt desires to be a "man's man" may prompt him to project his irrational fear onto the person he sees and act aggressively. Though it's not 100% accurate, there's much that is valid about the statement: "Show me what you hate, I'll show you what you fear in yourself."

If the fabled bell shaped curve of normal distribution is accurate, then the incidents of purely 100% "Alpha Males," who truly are hyper-masculine, is less than 1% of the male population.

There are, however, elaborate social rituals observable among ordinary collexions of males in public which, among them, are designed and performed to show each other just how much of a "man" the individual is. It's fun to stand aside from a group of "men" to observe their behavior, to watch their posturing and acting out these rituals they don't even realize exist.

Granny

[GaleWarning]

Is racism normal?
Is political correctness normal?
Is crossdressing normal?

You find these three phenomena everywhere you look!

My take on life is that anything which harms no-one is in order, whilst anything that can or does harm anyone is NOT in order.

So from my perspective, the first two are NOT ok, as they do harm people, always.
CDing can be harmful if it
(a) is deliberately engaged in to incite unsuspecting people (eg confronting a pizza delivery man)
(b) destroys a relationship.

Just my morning stir!
:tongueout

[deja true]

Yeah, well, "normalcy" changes with every generation doesn't it? (Heck even yearly or monthly or daily depending on what technology and art bring us.)

Remember when it as normal to have to drop money in a phone to make a call if you weren't at home? Remember when it was normal to have only three channels on your normal black and white 15" tv screen? Remember when those tv people couldn't say any of hundreds of proscribed words or even allude to bodily functions.


And normalcy varies by every socio-economic class, eh?

Remember when it was okay to pay women less for doing the same job as a man? Remember when it was normal to want a car with more cubic inches than your buddies? Remember when it was normal for all the black folks to live on one side of town and all the white folks to live on the other?

Normalcy is what conservatives (in thought and in politics) strive to maintain.

Fortunately for the young, the idea of social normalcy is changing pretty rapidly as far as our issue is concerned. There'll still be neanderthals. But they are a dying breed!

:)

[Kate Simmons]

Those who cannot think outside of the "box" or who remain static in their outlook are doomed to extinction. This goes for anything.:)

[Sherry-Stephanie]

Normalcy will only exist as it relates to CDing, transgender, homosexuality black white red pink polka dot whatever...if the world is perfect and balanced which it isn't and was never designed to be that way...if it were we'd all look the same...

We are different to most...that vast majority...even gays look at us different just as straight people look at gay guys ...wondering "how could they be that way"....that's just the price we pay for electing (if one wants ot use that term...) to dress femme...we should know/realize this fact of life and accept the reality that when we go out in publix we'll run into someone who is that way...if we do simply smile and maybe do a curtsy to him and simply move on...and eliminate him from all metal recollection of being in existance of this life...simply make him irrelavant to human kind...

But that's easy to say because I'd probably stand there and find soemthing that I could"discuss" about him in a rather demeaning and inflamitory way...simply in order that I could "yank his chain some"...and then see what would happen...but that's just me....

[suchacutie]

Might it be possible that the ability to say nothing (not be involved) increases with the distance from anything near and dear?

Might it be that her neighbor, meeting someone he didn't know, away from his home, would have said nothing even though he had the same internal feelings?

I'm thinking that he erupted because he's stuck with her :) She are going to be there, in proximity of his domain, and he has to deal with her. It may be that he has never had to confront these feelings of his with a flesh-and-blood person and his response was years of "talking to the mirror".

I hope that her proximity slow wears off the edge of bigotry he has, at least to the point of neutrality, if not acceptance.

all my best

tina

[Cathytg]

oh, I don't know... anyone who confronts people in the front yard and calls them names seems to be in some kind of alternative lifestyle of their own.

[tricia_uktv]

Going back to my college years when I studied statistics (rather than the A/W 09/10 collection) I seem to remember that there was no such thing as normal. There was mean, mode and average but there was something called the normal deviation. I quite like that expression.

[Jenny Brown]

oh, I don't know... anyone who confronts people in the front yard and calls them names seems to be in some kind of alternative lifestyle of their own.
What? Where's the logic in that comment? Yeah, the guy might be an un-educated loudmouth redneck jackass or whatever, but is that an alternative lifestyle? :doh:

[suchacutie]

Yes, it is a nightmare that people would call neighbors names for what they are wearing! Unfortunately there is a group of people who live is complete fear of what they cannot control or what they perceive is a threat to their lifestyle/existence. If we were not so sociologically vulnerable as a group, we would probably pity that neighbor.

Lets face it, if my neighbor shouted names at me for wearing an ethnically-distinctive hat of some kind, I'd just shake my head and move along, feeling sorry for him!

tina

[PaulaJaneThomas]

Even people who are non-confrontational, peaceful people generally do not accept those in the transgendered world.

In your country maybe but as an out TG my experience of the people in this country is that of a very high level of tolerance and a significant level of being openly supportive. Of course there are idiots too.


My own neighbors, and my own family, while decent, wonderful people, simply would not accept it if I were to appear before them in a dress and heels. At what cost is this normalcy?

My neighbours have no choice in the matter. I come and as I want dressed how I want. Some are actually very accepting. The others know better than try anything. The chavs next door are sh1t scared of me, which is nice :D

[ReineD]

Marla, I don't think the neighbor is "normal". But change doesn't happen overnight. It begins from within the community with strength and confidence to educate others. Those who are naturally more enlightened will early on understand and support. Then laws will eventually be changed. And then the politically correct attitudes will be taught in schools and the media will reflect this as well. There will be some obtuse "Archie Bunker" types who will never get it, but their children will have had exposure to a changing society that does accept, and they will not share their parents' attitudes. Their own children or their grandchildren will grow up having vastly different attitudes than their grandfather. And if there are geographical pockets of people who are slower to accept, attitude changes will occur there too but it will just take longer.

I was referring to the Civil Rights Movement. And now we have a black President.

My SO and I go out frequently and we've never run into anyone as uncouth as that neighbor. Most people have been very friendly. If someone has thought my SO was odd, they kept silent.

Your neighbors and family might have a difficult time making sense of the CDing in the beginning, and it may take awhile before they become comfortable with it. But, I wouldn't rule out the possibility entirely.
:hugs:

[meri]

Tag line says it all. Either you are insecure and prop up your ego by pointing out all the faults in others or you are a "live and let live" type of person.

Unfortunately for us, most people are the former rather than the later. Thus, we will always run the risk of a confrontation.

The only possible benefit of this potential exchange is that we can learn to "not be like they are". We can live and let live, we can be nonjudgemental. If you go after them, then you are simply lowering yourself to their not-so-lofty level.

Consider crossdressing and being "different" simply "practice". You are learning to be a better person, any fool that you have a confrontation with is your teacher.

There's a different point of view, eh?

[TGMarla]

If they are wonderful and decent people, then in my experience they will accept your cross-dressing; that's what "normal" people do.

I like that. :battingeyelashes:



There will be some obtuse "Archie Bunker" types who will never get it, but their children will have had exposure to a changing society that does accept, and they will not share their parents' attitudes. Their own children or their grandchildren will grow up having vastly different attitudes than their grandfather.


Yes, so often we find that the greatest change is inter-generational. My father hated rock music, and didn't think much of hippies. I love rock music, but I hate rap. Young kids love rap, and they'll find something in their kids that they dislike as well. The end result is usually more tolerance.


Consider crossdressing and being "different" simply "practice". You are learning to be a better person, any fool that you have a confrontation with is your teacher.

And I like that, too!

[VeronicaMoonlit]

They largely have not been exposed to the TG world, and know nothing of my crossdressing. It would be a serious shock to them, and it's a shock that I choose to not give them. They are decent people, and simply because they would have an adverse reaction does not negate this fact.

You can't be 100% sure they would have an adverse reaction. For years, from childhood on up I thought my family would, but they didn't. They even commented on my lack of trust of their inherent decency. I was selling them short.

We also know that people who know GLBT people tend to be more supportive of such things as legal protections and whatnot. But they can't know us until they know us. Which I know quite well is hard.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[ashcrimson]

This is a hard matter for me to deal with because my SO is just like that, just not confrontational but is very much prejudiced and close minded. It does hurt. I cant think of any other word for the feeling anymore. Its different to be insulted by a stranger, by a relative, by a friend, by a co-worker.

[RobynP]

This post got me thinking. This guy is, by societal standards, "normal". His reaction, unfortunately, is the all-too-common response people (mostly men) have when confronted with the transgender world.

This guy may think he is normal... but he does not realize how "not"-normal he is.

Many years ago (I am showing my age here) there was a comedian, Don Rickles, who made a living by insulting just about everybody. His type of comedy today would be viewed as very prejudice, hateful, and demeaning.


We here have often stated that the road to social acceptance would be to educate the public to who and what we really are. But in this case, it's safe to say that all the enlightenment, education, and social acceptance in the world wouldn't change his mind. Some people just won't ever learn, and don't aspire to.

I think part of the problem is that we are trying to change his mind. We CANNOT nor will we ever be able to change his mind. Only HE can change his mind. And if he doesn't want to change his mind, he doesn't HAVE TO which is one of the benefits of living in a free country/society. We cannot ship these people off to a re-education camp to force them to change their mind. Passing hate-crime legislation and anti-discriminatory legislation will NOT change his mind. People do not have to tolerate or accept every different lifestyle, political view, or personal behavior.

However, his behavior needs to change. No matter whatever he is thinking, he is responsible for his actions. There is no excuse for verbally assaulting someone.

Robyn P.

[sandra-leigh]

Is it only people who experience and live alternative lifestyles that aspire to tolerance and acceptance of those who are not exactly like themselves? Even people who are non-confrontational, peaceful people generally do not accept those in the transgendered world.

I don't think so, or at least not exactly as expressed.

Back in either my 3rd or 4th year of high school, there were a specific couple of guys in one of some of my classes, who were nice guys, obviously of some intelligence (even if not especially so in the maths and sciences), and who even though they were not in my circle of friends, treated me as human rather than shunning me as being majorly uncool for getting high marks and not indulging in drinking, drugs, or sports. No, I didn't have the nerd pocket protector... my social group was too small to have any kind of cultural structure.

I recall that at some point, after those two fellows had done something of interest (an 8mm school video or something like that), I indicated to one of my (few) friends an intent to go over to the other two people and talk to them and get to know them better. My friend distinctly discouraged me, saying that getting to know them would be a disaster for what little social standing I had, since the two of them were a gay couple and the ostracism of being gay would rub off on me. And what I said to myself at the time was that even though I didn't know exactly what being gay implied, that considering how well they had always treated me, that being gay was surely no bad thing -- that, on the contrary, it was the gay people who were treating me as human and the "straight" people who were bullying or ignoring me.

I regret to this day that I felt that I "needed" the certainty of the few friends that I had then, and so did not go over and strike up those conversations and become friends -- but inside me, it taught me a lesson in tolerance and in judging people by their character that I have never forgotten. And in the years that followed, it was often to turn out to be the homosexuals and the harmless social outcasts who treated me with respect when the mainstream people couldn't be bothered to even say "Hello".


This story comes with a postscript: although it was 30 years ago that I learned that lesson, I had long hoped that some day I might run into them again some day, and apologize for giving in to the prevailing homophobia of the time. I was thinking about them again just a couple of weeks ago, and did a little searching... and found one of them on facebook and was able to send my long-delayed apology. He in turn put me on to the other fellow, who is also on facebook, and I now have two new facebook friends. Both of them have done pretty well for themselves; one of them became a documentary film maker, winner of multiple awards for his social justice films.

[noeleena]

Hi...
Who is normal & what is normal
This will have a lot of different . answers . to. many people . I am not normal so how do people deal with me . I never asked people to accept this kid who is a woman i just told them the next time you see me will be ...as.. a women & did they accept . those i talked to had no problems . we have under 3500 people in waimate were we live they all knew me before i came out . then in one night . new zealand knew who i was . on two t v stations . i did not ask those people to accept me then . yet i had two people ring me up who i knew going back 50 & 30 years . plus others knew . there are two things that happen . you walk down the street . & some people say hi . or they are not bothered . too busy i spos . what i am saying is . when people know about you . i e. t v . papers .. the net . people may not understand . or even have any clue yet most accept you are different . not normal . hey i.m happy with that . i have had such a response that was good & no problems . why ... is it because i had the guts to open my self up to all the world .. i did . that is not a boast far from it . its just the fact i was given this if you like on a silver plate . & was accepted . & remember i am not a passable looking woman . far from it . voice & all so what .
If we are true to our selfs then dont put your selfs down, be counted . i have . if you go in to battle do you run when the first shot is fired. you trained for that battle .
So i was trained as well & went out in to the fireing line .. remember i had people behind me & help . so was not alone ......i can not tell you how to do it . only you will know whats best for you . if not we do have friends & others who can help . i know some of you will be thinking who the hell is this jackass kiwi . well a nobody . yet i did have the guts to walk out through the door & go for it . & be accepted on my merrit
Yes we have things to go through . i did not say it would be easy .. yet its still more than worth it . to be your self .
...noeleena...

[Raychel]

Who is normal & what is normal

A normal weekend for me is getting all dolled up on Sunday and enjoying soem Raychel time. Most of the people I know think that I am a bit strange and I never quite fit in with a crowd.

That is the way that I have been for the last 50 years, Sure I may have issues, but that is who I am. They will just have to get over it.

If people would just accept who they are and let life be, all would be good. Afterall I wouldn't go getting in his face calling him a macho asshole. Where does he get off getting in your face calling you a sissy.

[Ralph]

I see a lot of hostility - understandable, to some extent - towards people who have trouble understanding and accepting us. But I also know from reading posts here that most of us went through a period of self-discovery when we ourselves weren't sure what to make of it. For some it might mean years, or even decades, of not knowing if we are gay, insane, or just some kind of sick pervert. I know I spent at least 10 years going through all those fears and more.

So I put it to you that we cannot hold others to a higher standard than we had for ourselves. If it took me that long to figure out I'm not a pervert, how can I expect any better of my neighbor who doesn't even have the advantage of being inside my head or knowing what the urge feels like?

Don't see this as a confrontation or proof that humanity is doomed to barbarianism; look at it as an opportunity to enlighten the uninformed.

[Stephanie Heplby]

While I tended to agree with your points overall, I was struck by two of them...


Remember when it was okay to pay women less for doing the same job as a man?

Have you looked at the stats lately? Or perhaps the status of U.S. legislation to change the situation?

Sadly, it is still very much ok to pay women less for the same job. We talk like it is not, but our actions speak volumes in a very different direction.


Remember when it was normal to want a car with more cubic inches than your buddies?

In many (perhaps most) U.S. subcultures, it still is normal to want a more powerful, faster, hotter car. Have you noted that the most popular car sold by "New GM" is the retro Camero? Or perhaps you might have noticed that, until very recently, the hottest selling vehicles in the U.S. market were SUVs -- the larger the better.

Sorry, this appears a bit off-topic, but it is actually right on. When we look around us, we see "progress" or "decay" in the ways that conform to our ideologies, goals, beliefs, etc. We should be aware of these tendencies when assessing how the world relates to us as individuals, whether crossdressing, applying for loans, driving through a neighborhood, whatever.

[TGMarla]

Good point, Ralph.


(I almost said "good pint" by mistake, and that made me wanna go get a beer! :D)

[ReineD]

So I put it to you that we cannot hold others to a higher standard than we had for ourselves. If it took me that long to figure out I'm not a pervert, how can I expect any better of my neighbor who doesn't even have the advantage of being inside my head or knowing what the urge feels like?

What you say is true, but it does take a long time for CDs to come to terms with themselves because of the negative societal attitudes about the CDing. It is a learned process. If you had grown up in an environment where boys were not made to feel as if they were inferior or perverted for expressing feminine sides, and if the TGs around you had been free to express themselves openly, would self-acceptance have been an issue?

I know I've just described an ideal world free of TG bias and this is not the world we live in right now. But hopefully we are beginning to change this. :hugs:

[TGMarla]

Good pint, Reine! :drink:


And she scores!!!! :cheer: