Trying to understand behavior [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

KellyV GG

09-04-2009, 07:29 AM

Out of curiosity, have you mentioned to him how the incident made you feel? Does he act in your day to day relationship as though he thinks men are superior somehow to women in general just by virtue of the fact that they're men?

Hugs...Joni Mari

thanks so much Joni. I did tell him right away how it made me feel...belittled, inferior...that it was OK to emulate me and my gender until there was a real issue to deal with and then it felt like he had to uneven the playing filed. He did say that it was nothing like that but I think any girl in my position would have felt the same way.

I don't think that he feels men are superior to women but he is a big sports guy and can be a bit of a macho poser around other men or his sons, but in general no. Geez, there are so many places you can go trying to figure things out. I do understand the guilt aspect but it seems iike CDing can be such a self centered thing sometimes that he forgets to consider how I might perceive things or feel, it seems like it's all about his fragile feeling. In general the CDing has brought us much closer and I feel very lucky that he trusts me enough to open up this side to me but that incident made me feel like it's just something he can step out of any time. I do get the guilt thing tho...thanks for the great advice.

Kate Simmons

09-04-2009, 07:29 AM

True self acceptance amounts to being comfortable in one's own skin regardless of what one looks like. Unfortunately, some folks never get to that point in their life and seem to need an excuse to act one way or the other. The goal should be to develop as a full spectrum person capable of being empathetic towards others. Only when one realizes it's really about getting in touch with and managing the feelings and not what they are wearing will they really be able to do this.:)

KellyV GG

09-04-2009, 07:33 AM

Only when one realizes it's really about getting in touch with and managing the feelings and not what they are wearing will they really be able to do this.:)

How do you get to that place when you are torn between 2 genders?

Miranda09

09-04-2009, 07:38 AM

How do you get to that place when you are torn between 2 genders?

Time and patience!!! If your SO feels more secure in male form when arguing or whatever, just let it be. It will take time to achieve the balance you're both looking for. :)

Paula Siemen

09-04-2009, 07:51 AM

What is hard for non-crossdressers or GGs to understand is that crossdressing in general is repressed and causes a shameful internalized feelings. I'm sure he felt very vulnerable in the argument (discussion) due to his internalized lower self esteme. This site is invaluable in helping us crossdressers realise that crossdressing is NOT shamefull or wrong. It is just a part of our being for what ever reason. Don't take his changing back to male mode as his desire to feel superior to you. Its truely not like that at all, but more of his feeling totally vulnerable and small because of his insecurity over the crossdressing.

Good luck to you both.
Paula

Joni Marie Cruz

09-04-2009, 07:55 AM

Hi Kelly-

I get what you're saying, lots of times guys will "macho-up" in an argument, lord knows I've done it plenty of times, and being in a skirt makes it tough to do that. It seems to be that people should be able to have a disagreement and argue without gender being part of it. Hell, relationships are hard enough without transgenderism being thrown in on top of it.

As far as the sports and the "quien es mas macho" stuff, a lot of times, at least I think so (go ahead, flame me, I have my asbestos panties on, they're itchy but they work) it's a cover for our feminine feelings. We learn to disguise ourselves around other men and so get into sports or macho occupations and so on. Not to say that women can't be seriously into sports or in those sorts of occupations, too.

Anyway, you are so right, it's mind boggling how many avenues this aspect of human behavior can take you. Books have been written.<lol> Give him his chance to work through it, which it so sounds like you are. It's even worse in some ways to be given freedom to be yourself if you've been closeted up for years and learning how to deal with that freedom is kind of tough.

Hugs...Joni Mari

He did say that it was nothing like that but I think any girl in my position would have felt the same way.

I don't think that he feels men are superior to women but he is a big sports guy and can be a bit of a macho poser around other men or his sons, but in general no. Geez, there are so many places you can go trying to figure things out..

KellyV GG

09-04-2009, 08:04 AM

It's even worse in some ways to be given freedom to be yourself if you've been closeted up for years and learning how to deal with that freedom is kind of tough.

Argggghhhh...what does that mean????? Geeeeeeeezzzz....I have given him 1000% freedom...it's all about him getting in touch with her right now in our lives. Sorry to get off topic but...what's the answer???? Slow him down to give him a chance to process his feelings or just take the hinges off the closet door like I have and let him go wild. Really it's not my place to determine that, it's his life, his issue to process but I'm trying....it's impossible to figure out. At least I can borrow his lipstick...looking for upsides.

Kate Simmons

09-04-2009, 08:08 AM

How do you get to that place when you are torn between 2 genders?Well, I never said it was easy Kelly. It took me over 50 years to get to that place by myself. Some people never get to that point and when you have someone who cares and you can grow together, it helps. The important thing is to take the time and iniative to really understand the feelings, accept them and make them our own. In this way we can use them to work for us and they become a choice for self expression rather than a compulsion that must be obeyed.:)

Sheila

09-04-2009, 08:11 AM

Kelly ............ I can hear your frustration at being unable to understand what is going on ............ been there done that one with my Ex .......... will go find a link in a min and then re.edit this post okay :)

but sometimes our knowing really does throw them into a loop .......... once they had to have "this thing" under control, now they think they have the freedom to do waht they want and for some of them it brings an even bigger turmoil ............ I know it is not easy to understand, but it just is.

For you take a breath, sit down, read a book, watch Tele, listen to music ......... in other words relax, take some time out to enjoy doing what you used to do before you found out ........... I know it is hard when you are where u are with cding .......... I did the headless chicken bit 4 years ago, and yes I was as supporting as you are and yes I was as confused as you are with the whole reaction from my cder as you are with yours ........... damn fellas they remain confusing whatever they are wearing;)

This thread here is the one I was saying about ............ ? FOR CDR's ONLY PLEASE (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94072) I hope this helps you to understand a little :)

cdterri

09-04-2009, 08:11 AM

Years ago my first wife and I got into a heated argument. I had been dressing in front of her four seven yrs and she always told me she had no problem with it. However during this argument she suddenly called me a queer. I quickly changed clothes, and the next day burned every fem thing I owned. "MY FIRST PURGE" She apologised over and over, begged me to forgive and forget, even went out 2 days later and bought me a new skirt and top. I could not let it go, From that day on I could not look her in the face. Four months later I walked out on her 'the straw that broke the camels back" I guess. Anyway to this day if my wife and I argue I feel the need to change. I'm terrified that something similar may happen and I don't know how I would react

Kali

09-04-2009, 08:13 AM

Argggghhhh...what does that mean????? Geeeeeeeezzzz....I have given him 1000% freedom...it's all about him getting in touch with her right now in our lives. Sorry to get off topic but...what's the answer???? Slow him down to give him a chance to process his feelings or just take the hinges off the closet door like I have and let him go wild. Really it's not my place to determine that, it's his life, his issue to process but I'm trying....it's impossible to figure out. At least I can borrow his lipstick...looking for upsides.

What my SO did was remind me, as needed, that it was all about balance; her needs, my needs, our needs. Like a lot of CDs dressing for me is an escape. I'll always remain a straight male, regardless of my attire.

But for some it isn't about the dressing, it's about all of the dynamics that go with being transgendered. This is a long, and touchy topic, even here, but it would likely be a good idea for you and your boyfriend to talk about his feelings and motviations. It's not an easy discussion, and it's usually an ongoing one, but like anything else in a relationship, communications is the key to success.

Joni Marie Cruz

09-04-2009, 08:13 AM

Hi Again Kelly-

Girl, if I knew that answer I'd write a book. Honestly, I don't know nor do I think anyone else really knows, it's up to your boyfriend how he handles it and what sort of person he is. He must be a good guy or he wouldn't someone as caring as you in his life so there's that to start with.

As you mentioned a lot of our behavior, girls like us, tgirls, can be so very self centered and we don't even realize it until someone smacks us in the head. Being able to talk to him about your feelings and how all this is affecting you and your relationship is what's going to determine where this all ends up. From your posts you seem a pretty intelligent and forthright and articulate woman who knows how to say what she means, just talk to him (I keep wanting to say her, but it makes it a bit confusing sometimes) and make sure he knows he can talk to you. It's a process.

BTW, is he a member here? Maybe he should be. Just a thought.

Hugs...Joni Mari

Argggghhhh...what does that mean????? Geeeeeeeezzzz....I have given him 1000% freedom...it's all about him getting in touch with her right now in our lives. Sorry to get off topic but...what's the answer???? Slow him down to give him a chance to process his feelings or just take the hinges off the closet door like I have let him go wild. Really it's not my place to determine that, it's his life, his issue to process but I'm trying....it's impossible to figure out.

Tina B.

09-04-2009, 09:21 AM

Hi Kelly!
Glad you found us. Just keep one thing in mind, you have known for a couple of months, your BF has been going throught all of this, single handed, for years. It takes a little time to learn to share something that has been such a big secret all of your life. I know it seems like things have been like this for a long time, but really it's just been the blink of an eye. I told my wife some thirty years ago. It took a long time for us to adjust to the world as we kow it know it now. But boy was it worth it, to put in the time, I don't know a lot of couples that are as close as we are. and while we wear different sizes we do share Jewery and make up, as well as sharing fashion tips. We love to watch chick flix together as well as shopping, having a husband and a girl friend in the house does have its advantages! Give him time, and take time for yourself, talk about how you feel and make him talk about how he feels, and if he can,t do it in a dress, make him do it in pants, but do it.
Tina B.

docrobbysherry

09-04-2009, 10:39 AM

I have found that guessing what my SO, or ANY female I'm with is thinking, is USUALLY a mistake!
If I REALLY want to know, I ASK THEM!

It sounds like you've already done that! He may be either, not feeling like answering, or DOESN'T know HOW TO! Us closet CDs often don't HAVE to deal with these issues. Because we dress alone, in private!

However, I'm NOT going to try and guess his thots and feelings. And I don't think u should try either.

If you're comfortable with this idea, it may help u both!
Invite his fem side over for drinks. Without being confrontational, slowly bring "her" out with questions you've organized in advance. If u can make him/her relax, feelings about why he dresses, and what he enjoys about it, may come out.

One disclaimer: Sex is an important part of MY dressing! I find that embarrassing and would have a hard time discussing that with a GG I cared about! He may feel the same!:eek:

KellyV GG

09-04-2009, 10:50 AM

If you're comfortable with this idea, it may help u both!
Invite his fem side over for drinks. Without being confrontational, slowly bring "her" out with questions you've organized in advance. If u can make him/her relax, feelings about why he dresses, and what he enjoys about it, may come out.
:

What are the right questions to ask without sounding like I'm accusing him of something and without him getting defensive? It's very uncomfortable even going there..I'm not sure that he knows how he feels and I don't want to push it but I know that we REALLY need to talk about it.....thanks!

suchacutie

09-04-2009, 10:59 AM

Hi Kelly and welcome to our thoughtful family!

Everyone of us who carries two genders around inside of us treats the relationship between those two genders a bit differently. Hmm, "treats" is the wrong word: it's just the fact of our internal wiring that the two genders have a relationship.

For me, if there is any stress in my life, my femme side, Tina, just can't handle it. Being Tina takes everything I have, emotionally. Also, Tina has evolved to think "as a woman". My wife has worked with us (Tina and me) to understand the fundamental differences that exist in the socialization of girls and boys as they grow up. At this point Tina is socialized enough to be a different entity from the male me. Thus, if my wife and I need to discuss important issues in our lives (including having a disagreement), Tina has to give way to my male self. Not only can't Tina handle the stress, but she is not the person who should be discussing important issues that belong in the husband/wife realm.

Having said that, when things aren't stressful, Tina and my wife do discuss issues about my male self as if I were a third person. Well, actually I am a third person, and that is really the whole thing: We are three people. My wife and I can discuss things about Tina (and often do), and Tina and she can discuss things about me.

That, I believe, is the kind of situation you just experienced. His personas were on overload, and the issue, he probably felt, involved his male side. Thus, he couldn't emotionally deal with it unless he was firmly his male self. It sounds that like me, he is one person with two perspectives on life. Also, it seems that he is so committed to you that he would not allow anyone else, even his feminine side, to get between the two of you when an important discussion had to happen. I view that as a strong commitment to your relationship.

I hope this helps!

tina and him!

KellyV GG

09-04-2009, 11:03 AM

Also, it seems that he is so committed to you that he would not allow anyone else, even his feminine side, to get between the two of you when an important discussion had to happen. I view that as a strong commitment to your relationship.

I hope this helps!

tina and him!

Wow Tina...thanks. That helps alot!!!!! Kelly

suchacutie

09-04-2009, 11:04 AM

One thing I forgot to stress: As has been said in previous posts in this thread, you can have a conversation with his femme self about his male self. In fact, it can be quite liberating for him to partake in this kind of discussion.

You might start by having discussion about her with him. Use good stuff. Ask him what her opinion might be about something. "What does she think about that". Then when it's she you're talking to, ask her about him. How does he feel about (politics, religion, the sky, whatever :) ). If he is used to having these discussions about his "other" gender, you can open any pandora's box with the assurance that he can separate one gender from the other.

Enjoy them!

tina

AllieSummers

09-04-2009, 11:05 AM

I'm not sure that his changing was to be more superior than you but I guess anything is possible. My wife and I have had a fight when I was dressed before over an non-cd issue and I did the same thing. I think I actually changed to punish myself in some way.

I am also very happy and fun loving when I'm dressed and I don't want to bring anger or pain or any negative feelings into my dressing. I guess that might mean that dressing is a form of escape from problems...I don't know.

I wouldn't read too much into that one event. If it does become a habit then it might be an issue but I bet that he was a lot like me and just didn't feel comfortable combining the two.

Kisses,

Allie

Cindy09

09-04-2009, 11:07 AM

Welcome to the forums, Kelly.

I'm not sure that I can shed any more light on this subject other than to affirm what some of the other girls are saying.

It took me 23 years to accept who I am and come out to my GF, and even then it took months not to feel guilty about being a girl when she came home from work. Even though she was totally amazing and took it all in stride (almost better than I did making the revelation) I still felt this guilt and uneasiness inside of me.

Your BF's quick change into boy mode was probably due to insecurities inside himself. It is hard to be in conflict when you have another monkey sitting on your back. Rather than be in a power play, he was more likely trying to rid himself of internal conflict so that he could deal with the more pressing, important issue of resolving the conflict with you.

The only thing that will make him more confident with who he is is patience. Especially if you guys have just begun this journey. Remember that telling you was a HUGE thing for him, and although you may be totally cool with it, he may not be.

I highly recommend the book "My Husband Betty" - you can get it on Amazon. It's written from the point of view of a GG married to a cross dresser and what they had to deal with. It may help you discover what questions you need to ask and how you can be supportive. He may not even know.

And reaching out to us was a good step. You may feel like what you are going through is strange, but it's not to us! For all of your questions, one of us has been through it!

Let me know if I can help in ANY way!

Hugs,
Cindy

Misty is Kindafem

09-04-2009, 11:14 AM

So, he gets up, stomps out of the room and eventually comes back dressed masculine. So, I ask him what's up and he says he can't argue with me dressed like that. which leads to a whole other thing because that was pretty much saying to me that it was just fine to be a girl unless you need to be a man to be in a stronger position and therefore superior to me.

Wow. Very clever girl you are. Based on this and a couple of other posts, I would suggest that he would be outmatched in an argument with you.

I know a lot of the ladies here will disagree, but I think you hit the nail right on the head. He is NOT comfortable with who he is, evidenced by the macho act with his buddies that you described.

When the "argument" starts, the makeup and wig has to come off because "she" isn't strong enough to deal with you without resorting to what "he" can bring to the fight. Because at the root of this is the perception of what you were doing. It's telling that you say "it was no big deal" and then "he stomps out of the room". Those of us who are "masculine challenged" like to discuss things until we reach a mutual understanding but the testosterone laden among us like to stomp and yell.

The other component is the sheer intimidation factor. Aggressive men have always kinda put me off balance and I totally understand your offense at him changing to macho mode just to, in his mind, finish an argument.

My heart goes out to both of you, and my words of advice would be the same to either of you; Hug her.

-Misty

Gerard

09-04-2009, 11:16 AM

thanks so much Joni. I did tell him right away how it made me feel...belittled, inferior...that it was OK to emulate me and my gender until there was a real issue to deal with and then it felt like he had to uneven the playing filed. He did say that it was nothing like that but I think any girl in my position would have felt the same way.
I'm not a girl, but not a big guy either and I think I can imagine some of what you would have felt. This is about how you felt, and if my experience with women is anything to go by, you were right on the money as to assessing why it happened, although he probably didn't do in consciously.

If he made you feel like that, then it was the wrong way to do, no matter what his conscious or unconscious intentions.

There are two types of very male behaviour I notice in stories on this forum, when concerning crossdressing husbands:
- Those that think that if their spouse isn't stopping them, she must be accepting and thus end up going too fast.
- Those that go after crossdressing like other men go after model trains. Men often are much more obsessive in their behaviour.

You have to remind yourself that under that dress and make-up, there still is a body with loads of testosterone and a male upbringing.
Men and women solve things differently, my experience is that women want to talk, and men just do things.
I don't know you or him, so I don't know you live and communicate with each other. But my advice to both sides usually is for the man to try and talk and listen more, and the woman to try and assert herself more.
For you that would mean that on the one hand you support him, but on the other hand you apply the breaks when things get outside your comfort zone. Not just in words, but also in deeds. For example, put his woman clothes in a closet where you have the key. Put yourself in control and in a position of power.

As in defence of us guys, most of us are not very good at putting our impulses and emotions into words and we will often react defensively and in denial when the deeper layers of our psyche are laid bare. Men are not taught to handle emotions and understand themselves.

I think much can be gained by you being in a position of power, and he learning to talk and communicate, instead of using body language. I agree with the poster above me that it sounds that he is in conflict with himself and has not come to know who he really is. Your story tells a of a lot of posturing, which is all façade and make believe. Try to make him open up to you either in boy or girl mode and slowly peel away the layers until the boy and girl become the same person.*

Just my 2 Euro-cents. Others here also have good opinions.

*) I'm not a Psychiatrist, you might want to consider professional councelling at some point. It seems others in this thread actually handle the whole thing by having very separate boy and girl persona, I personally found that I only started to feel whole after they merged.

Misty is Kindafem

09-04-2009, 11:25 AM

...I agree with the poster above me

Um hello ...Gerard?

My name is Misty, nice to meet you, ;-)

Gerard

09-04-2009, 11:36 AM

Um hello ...Gerard?

My name is Misty, nice to meet you, ;-)
Sorry Misty, but I had forgotten your name, and if I'd looked it up I would have lost my train of thought.

Now back to the topic at hand. I just want to add that I want to applaud KellyV for coming here. I find that women often make more of an effort to understand someone else than men.
Next to that, they seem to be better at it, or at least at expressing it in words. I've had women angry at me that seemed to read my every thought, while their intentions and thoughts were a total enigma to me. I think many women have better developed social skills because they can't muscle their way out.

It might help if he came here too, and tried to talk. I know it helped me.

Mrs. X (gg)

09-04-2009, 11:42 AM

Hi Kelly and welcome:

I believe that his behavior had nothing to do with him wanting to be superior but to disassociate or disconect the warmth, happy, comfortable feeling of being in women clothes with the argument taking place.

Do I make sense? While in female they're peaceful or in a calm mood, wanting to be polite and soft, enjoying themselves. To be arguing in that heaven state, ruins the moment.

Just like we in a spa, having this great massage but arguing with your next bed partner...doesn't go together.

ReineD

09-04-2009, 11:42 AM

Hi Kelly, welcome! :hugs:

Thank you so much for bringing this up. I've been here for awhile and this is the first time I've seen this topic discussed. I haven't even experienced it with my own BF, so I'm glad to be reading all the responses. I do have some thoughts about a few things you said, and I hope they help:

Sure wish I had a "happy place" to change in to.

You and I are not transgendered, so we don't have that side of us that feels precarious and vulnerable where we don't know how to process certain emotions. So there is no need for us to escape out of our gender if we run into a situation that we simply don't know how to deal with. As the other TGs said here, it will take time for your BF to reach the same level of confidence with his femme side as he feels with his guy side.

that it was OK to emulate me and my gender until there was a real issue to deal with

Your BF is not trying to emulate us. He does want to learn from us because he hasn't been socialized to know how to express his femme self, but he really is trying to be herself.

It's even worse in some ways to be given freedom to be yourself if you've been closeted up for years and learning how to deal with that freedom is kind of tough.

Joni Marie, hope you won't mind my take on what you said, but to explain to Kelly, I understand you to mean that it is much easier learning how to process feelings as a woman if you've had the freedom to do so all your life, than it is to learn how to do this all at once, when you suddenly have or give yourself that freedom.

What are the right questions to ask without sounding like I'm accusing him of something and without him getting defensive? It's very uncomfortable even going there..I'm not sure that he knows how he feels and I don't want to push it but I know that we REALLY need to talk about it.....thanks!

It's not so much the questions as the frame of mind you both are in when you discuss things. It is best to remain objective and positive, as if she is the teacher and you are trying to learn. Talking about the fundamentals of being femme is hard and your BF might not have all the answers. He hasn't needed to define it in words for himself. So asking questions like "what makes you want to dress" is like asking someone "why do you like apples better than oranges".

You could ask her his history; when she began, how she felt while reassuring her that you understand the concept of having felt scared or ashamed when she was younger. You could ask her if she or he feels sad for not being able to do certain things, or maybe sad that she couldn't show herself to her parents. You could ask her about one of her best experiences while dressed. And ask her what her dreams are, what she would like to do, all the time keeping an open, not judgmental attitude. And lots of cuddling. :) And the converstation will go from there! :hugs:

Joanne f

09-04-2009, 11:52 AM

I know that i put that it can be linked to a type of guilt when a Cder suddenly takes off the clothes that they are in for no apparent reason but some how just guilt does not quite seam the right word so i am going to add shame to mix in with guilt , it is a sort of a mixture of both , you feel guilty and shameful all rolled into one while you are standing there in a dress while your wife is arguing with you so you have to get the clothes off as quickly as possible to try and make it feel right and normal and the odd thing is that the more the Cder thinks of there partner the more it can hit them until they get over this faze, which in turn can make them angry inside for being caught that way in the first place .

Crysten

09-04-2009, 12:51 PM

thanks so much Joni. I did tell him right away how it made me feel...belittled, inferior...that it was OK to emulate me and my gender until there was a real issue to deal with and then it felt like he had to uneven the playing filed. He did say that it was nothing like that but I think any girl in my position would have felt the same way.

I don't think that he feels men are superior to women but he is a big sports guy and can be a bit of a macho poser around other men or his sons, but in general no. Geez, there are so many places you can go trying to figure things out. I do understand the guilt aspect but it seems iike CDing can be such a self centered thing sometimes that he forgets to consider how I might perceive things or feel, it seems like it's all about his fragile feeling. In general the CDing has brought us much closer and I feel very lucky that he trusts me enough to open up this side to me but that incident made me feel like it's just something he can step out of any time. I do get the guilt thing tho...thanks for the great advice.

Hiya and welcome to the forum!!! Well, I can tell you from personal experience - if I argue with my wife while I'm dressed....I just feel ridiculous. Especially if it's about something serious. Dunno why. Sorta like "here I am in this goofy get-up trying to make a point about something I feel strongly about". Sort of like a clown reciting Shakespeare, I guess - doesn't work too well. This hasn't happened recently, so maybe (by now) I would handle it differently.

The guilt has a LOT to do with perceptions of personal failure. "I like to dress and act like a woman, therefore I feel like a failure as a man". This can be totally unconcious, I think, however, the resulting behavior speaks VOLUMES about how we REALLY feel. A lot of us may feel this way. Self acceptance is a long journey. It's EXCEEDINGLY HARD to deal with someone who hasn't fully accepted themselves. Once this happens, generally the guilt feeling subside, and things become more straight forward.

The only thing I can suggest is - try and take it slowly, expect some bumps in the road, and communicate your feelings. We're a complex bunch, no doubt, and getting to where we want to be is a long, tough road, both personally and in relationships.

Welcome to the forum again, I hope you find something of value here. :)

Rhonda Jean

09-04-2009, 04:55 PM

There's a lot to be said for the happy place. For me, I'm unaccustomed to dealing with anything but the most pleasurable things in life when I'm dressed. Unhealthy? Maybe. It is quite an escape that I find in no other activity. It certainly gives me an unrealistic association with all things female.

In all my years of cding, I can only remember one similar situation, and it wasn't with my wife, which would have made it worse. When it happened, I became hyper-aware of all my feminine affectations. I could practically feel the lipstick on my lips. I could feel my earrings stabbing my ears. I could go on and on about every little thing. Moments before I had been happily strolling throught the mall, feeling ever so pleased about my very feminine presentation, and reveling in the same things that now seemed foreign, yet still an inescapable part of me. My posture, my gestures, my voice. It all seemed very incongruent, and I wished it wasn't there.

When I'm dressed, I enjoy being softer, a little more vulnerable, friendlier, nicer. I'm not used to dealing with negative emotions while dresses, and don't want to.

I remember that during this incident I got flashes of myself, as if I were on the outside looking in. A few moment before I would have seen myself in a very feminine and flattering light. At that moment, I saw myself a an angry man in a dress.

If there's really such a thing as pettitcoat discipline, I imagine that this is one reason it works. Speaking from experience, one can pretty quickly begin to feel pretty ridiculous exhibiting this type of male behavior when femininely attired.

KellyV GG

09-05-2009, 06:04 AM

Wow this whole thing is so complicated on so many levels. You would think that this would be more complicated emotionally for me but not even close. Thank you all for being so candid and taking the time to share.

It took me 23 years to accept who I am and come out to my GF, and even then it took months not to feel guilty about being a girl when she came home from work. Even though she was totally amazing and took it all in stride (almost better than I did making the revelation) I still felt this guilt and uneasiness inside of me.

Thanks for that Cindy...it makes me wonder...if you are dealing with something that causes so much shame, guilt and confusion and continuing to do it causes more shame and guilt, what's the benefit? It's so hard to understand. And how do I make it easier? He won't talk about it and quite obviously doesn't know how to define what's going on inside himself. Is it possible to ever be comfortable with anyone if you are dealing with constant guilt and shame?

As in defence of us guys, most of us are not very good at putting our impulses and emotions into words and we will often react defensively and in denial when the deeper layers of our psyche are laid bare. Men are not taught to handle emotions and understand themselves.

This is hard to completely understand because if you're femme side is so strong that it has to manifest itself, develop it's own personality, have it's own name and wardrobe it would be logical to assume that you might be more in touch with your emotions. But thanks for that...I think that's exactly what's happening. How do you deal with another person denial, tho, when it's all so crystal clear and written in neon from my side of things?

Your BF is not trying to emulate us. He does want to learn from us because he hasn't been socialized to know how to express his femme self, but he really is trying to be herself.

So asking questions like "what makes you want to dress" is like asking someone "why do you like apples better than oranges".

Thank you..it's so hard to understand. He's so disconnected from his own feelings that I don't see how he will ever really connect with who him/herself really is. And I don't know how to help. Wish I had read this before I asked him what makes him want to dress, which I did last night. His answer: a very uncomfortable "dunno, it's just clothes". And when I tried to push it farther he completely shut down. Don't know where to go from here.

I know that i put that it can be linked to a type of guilt when a Cder suddenly takes off the clothes that they are in for no apparent reason but some how just guilt does not quite seam the right word so i am going to add shame to mix in with guilt , it is a sort of a mixture of both , you feel guilty and shameful all rolled into one while you are standing there in a dress while your wife is arguing with you so you have to get the clothes off as quickly as possible to try and make it feel right and normal and the odd thing is that the more the Cder thinks of there partner the more it can hit them until they get over this faze, which in turn can make them angry inside for being caught that way in the first place .

So...relationships are difficult enough to begin with, so how do you deal with a partner who is dealing with guilt, shame and anger about something not even related to normal relationship issues. Now I feel like I have to walk on eggshells to protect his fragile side. Which doesn't seem fair, but at the same time I wish I could take all of that away and certainly don't want to make it worse. But if something non CD realted is bothering me is it better to wait until he's in boy mode and therefore more comfortable with himself before we deal with it? I know that if I have to tiptoe around for months or years until he feels comfortable with himself I will more than likely really resent it.

The guilt has a LOT to do with perceptions of personal failure. "I like to dress and act like a woman, therefore I feel like a failure as a man". This can be totally unconcious, I think, however, the resulting behavior speaks VOLUMES about how we REALLY feel. A lot of us may feel this way. Self acceptance is a long journey. It's EXCEEDINGLY HARD to deal with someone who hasn't fully accepted themselves. Once this happens, generally the guilt feeling subside, and things become more straight forward.

Things were pretty straight forward and we really had nothing to deal with before "she" appeared in the relationship. Suddenly it's a whole new thing and yes....Exceedingly hard. I accept her, have shopped for her, have done her make-up, have run all over London searching for the right wigs, shoes, etc...which I would never even do for myself, too much bother. So...here she is, everythings complicated and I'm running around like a mad woman trying to make sure she has what she needs. This is supposed to be a good thing but it just gets more and more complex.

I'm not used to dealing with negative emotions while dresses, and don't want to.

Thank you for sharing that story, Rhonda Jean. Very telling. One thing....no one is happy dealing with negative emotions. But just because when dressed you are in your happy place (not you specifically....I'm refering to my BF really) and something negative occurs...oh well, you have to deal with it like a person relating to another person...uncomfortable or not. It's part of life and to be on the other side of behavior you don't understand or may misread on top of the issue at hand is just craziness.

Sorry for the long post. I appreciate the incredible support so much. Really feel the need to vent today........Cheers....Kelly

PaulaJaneThomas

09-05-2009, 06:51 AM

So...here she is, everythings complicated and I'm running around like a mad woman trying to make sure she has what she needs.

Don't do that or you'll probably end up with an overgrown spoilt child on your hands. Let her go out and buy her own things. You're living in the most cosmopolitan city in the most tolerant country in the world.. Use that to your advantage There's no excuse for her to dump all her shopping needs on you. The shops don't care. They probably get dozens of TG customers every day. If I lived closer I'd offer to drag her round the shops.

Rhonda Jean

09-05-2009, 08:19 AM

KellyV

Your questions and comments are very insightful. I love your openness and honesty. We (I) probably don't get enough of that.

I could sum up my feelings on it by saying that reality can really screw up a fantasy. The examples are endless.

I actually think you've made some sort of quantum leap in acceptance by not only allowing, but expecting him to deal with everyday life within his femme personna. Most of us have dealt with cd related issues while they're in the forefront. You seem to have bypassed the usual, " I'm afraid my friends will notice his shaved legs" concerns and gone straight to "I'm able to deal with real life as a woman. Why can't you?".

A question for you. When you're having this disagreement with your boyfriend and you're looking into his made-up eyes, are you not distracted by his sparkling earrings and femine-looking breasts? Or bothered that his words come through his red lips? I think (knowing I may be completely wrong) that this is another one of those times that most women would want all this stuff to just go away. Do you feel like you're arguing with a woman? Your girlfriend? Or do you see all this no differently than you expect he sees you similarly attired? Do the clothes and makeup make no difference to you, or do you think you treat him differently when he's "her"? This is quite an intruguing discussion, and (to me) quite revealing into the thoughts of an acceptins SO. Thanks for your the insight!

KellyV GG

09-05-2009, 08:57 AM

KellyV

Your questions and comments are very insightful. I love your openness and honesty. We (I) probably don't get enough of that.

Rhonda Jean...I appreciate your and everyone's honesty and willingness to share. It's a massive relief to have someone to talk too.

I could sum up my feelings on it by saying that reality can really screw up a fantasy. The examples are endless.
Ain't that the truth...I think that might be a little bit of what's going on with us. He's clearly going thru some massive emotional stuff when dressed that he just can't express. Be careful what you ask for, I guess.

I actually think you've made some sort of quantum leap in acceptance by not only allowing, but expecting him to deal with everyday life within his femme personna. Most of us have dealt with cd related issues while they're in the forefront. You seem to have bypassed the usual, " I'm afraid my friends will notice his shaved legs" concerns and gone straight to "I'm able to deal with real life as a woman. Why can't you?".

I don't know that I've made any sort of quantum leap. I care about my relationship. My friends thoughts aren't important. I have, however, taken the wrap for the shaved legs and body with his kids. They noticed and started giving him a hard time and I jumped in and said that I made him do it cuz he was too hairy. Which I'm sure got back to their mum (who has no idea, supposedly), but, oh well. And ya...you don't get a pass for dealing with anything based on the gender you happen to be presenting and how fragile that part of your ego may be. It's not a game and not fair to me to have to deal with one aspect over the other. I deserve that much.

A question for you. When you're having this disagreement with your boyfriend and you're looking into his made-up eyes, are you not distracted by his sparkling earrings and femine-looking breasts? Or bothered that his words come through his red lips? I think (knowing I may be completely wrong) that this is another one of those times that most women would want all this stuff to just go away. Do you feel like you're arguing with a woman? Your girlfriend? Or do you see all this no differently than you expect he sees you similarly attired? Do the clothes and makeup make no difference to you, or do you think you treat him differently when he's "her"?

If I get distracted at all when he's dressed it's because he's a very very pretty woman and and an average bloke. I do tend to find myself staring at him excessively, but because he's so pretty! As for the arguement...not at all. I see him/her, either way. I can tell you I did not want the whole CDing thing to go away at that moment, just what I considered childish behavior because he couldn't deal with a situation en femme. Which, thanks to all of the comments, I do understand on one level but still....boy or girl, he's a grownup. Figure out how to deal with life as a grown-up, please. Maybe I lack a level of understanding, I know how incredibly difficult this all is from his perspective, but...I study martial arts, so if I get in an arguement wearing my gi, does that mean because I have fighting clothing on I have to be in that mode...sorry, I'm in fighting clothes, I have to kick you're **s now cuz I'm dressed like this...or, let me change into girl clothes and we can have a civilized discussion. OK...over simplified maybe, definately..but I don't think it needs to be a complex issue. Anyway...I wanted that attitude/behavior to go away, but I see one person. I don't see a girlfriend at all. I see my pretty, feminine (which he is not so much out of dress) boyfriend in a dress, wig and make-up expressing a side of him that is obviously so strong it needs to materialize. But I don't see a gender change or consider him my girlfriend. He's not. I do treat him differently when he's dressed. But in a good way. He's softer, more affectionate, more snuggly, very sweet and giggly...it's nice. Boy him is nice as well, but she's easier to snuggle with and get closer to physically.

This is quite an intruguing discussion, and (to me) quite revealing into the thoughts of an acceptins SO. Thanks for your the insight!

Thanks for your insights! This is certainly not something I ever imagined ever ever ever to be dealing with in life. And it's way more complicated than I thought it would be. I am very accepting because I love him dearly and I believe everyone has the right to be who they are. But not at the expense of those around you....Kelly

deja true

09-05-2009, 09:25 AM

...
Kelly V... This is hard to completely understand because if you're femme side is so strong that it has to manifest itself, develop it's own personality, have it's own name and wardrobe it would be logical to assume that you might be more in touch with your emotions. But thanks for that...I think that's exactly what's happening. How do you deal with another person denial, tho, when it's all so crystal clear and written in neon from my side of things?

Well, yes, a very strong feminine inclination abides in many of us, but we just have not had the socialization or opportunity to mature into it. So, as others have said, especially Gerard, we just cannot, will not bring ourselvs to verbalize it in any understandable way. Hell, we cannot even understand it ourselves.

Until we are able to even begin to accept this within ourselves we see it as a curse. And that cursed feeling will last forever until we can. Many here, myself included, have been able to get there with the help of the examples and stories and advice of folks here (peers who have also sufferred the curse and been able free themselves of it). Many others have needed the concentrated help of professional and impartial confidants like psychs and shrinks! Even if the feeling of being cursed can be shed, though, that doesn't necessarily engender the feeling of being "blessed".

I ramble a little here, but the point I'm trying to get to is this: Your man is isolated within himself. The frustration of being unable to understand himself, and the crippling inability to even be able to communicate to you what he himself cannot understand, may be the cause of his withdrawal. That's what we do as men.

You're very well-intentioned attempts to empathize and help don't seem to be able to help your relationship either. In fact, as PaulaJane says, you may even be exacerbating his retreat into himself. Not ever having had any acceptance, he may be finding yours almost unbelievable. And, oddly, that's kinda scary, too.

So there must be another way...

They've already been mentioned here. Joining this group and opening up to "peers". Given the thousands of folks here and the thousands who have passed through, we've probably heard it all. And/Or professional counselling. And/Or a local support group that he can talk to face to face.

As you've already read, we all celebrate your acceptance and the hard work you're going through to normalize this unusual relationship. And we're sorry that it's such a difficult exercise for you.

Good Luck to you, dear one ...

There's a lot of varying advice here. Use what you think will work. But most importantly, keep yourself and your own peace of mind in the forefront of your actions.

:)

KellyV GG

09-05-2009, 10:12 AM

...

Until we are able to even begin to accept this within ourselves we see it as a curse. And that cursed feeling will last forever until we can.

Thanks for that. Maybe I'm not taking it all as seriously as I should. It hurts to see someone you love going thru something neither one of you understand. It's horrible to see it..or anything..as a curse you are forced to live with.

The frustration of being unable to understand himself, and the crippling inability to even be able to communicate to you what he himself cannot understand, may be the cause of his withdrawal. That's what we do as men.

Thanks for that as well. It's easy to forget that. I am very in touch with myself and my own feelings so I assume he/she should be as well. I so want him to be able to communicate what ever is going on.

They've already been mentioned here. Joining this group and opening up to "peers". Given the thousands of folks here and the thousands who have passed through, we've probably heard it all. And/Or professional counselling. And/Or a local support group that he can talk to face to face.

Not a chance in the world at this point. I mentioned this forum and maybe talking to other people in his position which was immediately met with "so, you're saying there's something wrong with me!" and no matter how gently I try to re-approach the subject I'm immediately shot down.

As you've already read, we all celebrate your acceptance and the hard work you're going through to normalize this unusual relationship. And we're sorry that it's such a difficult exercise for you.

Thank you...I very much appreciate all of the help and support. More than you can imagine!!

ChrisP

09-05-2009, 11:03 AM

Kelley,

Your post made me look at some of my own behaviors and assumptions in a new light.....thanks for bringing this subject up.

I've had something similar happen in the past (with my ex), and for me, changing out of my dress and heels to have/complete the discussion was my reaction to my notion that the crossdressing bothered her.
I guess I saw the change in clothes as a return to a "neutral" corner, since she wasn't at all positive about my proclivities ( I would call it toleration rather than acceptance).

I see clearly that you are accepting of his dressing up, and in this case his return to male attire seems more like posturing rather than (in his mind) a return to baseline/neutrality.

You are very articulate about this, and you make a very good point that I at least completely overlooked.

I would just tell him outright how you feel, and that if the two of you have a disagreement while he is enfemme, it needs to get resolved (assuming it can be) in that mileau.

It is really, really hard for some of us to accept this part of ourselves.
We've struggled most of our lives to hide it from others, and we feel extremely vulnerable about it. The positive regard that you give to him is going to help his acceptance of himself happen eventually, but it will take time.

And I agree that you shoudn't have to carry the frieght for his shaved legs or other grooming habits that the kids notice. The fact that you stood up for him in this situation tells me that you saw how vulnerable he was at that moment, and compassion caused you to react to protect him.

Hopefully as he learns to accept this side of himself he will be able to own up to his own choices.

BTW, if he did ever do this again (change clothes during an argument), do what you alluded to above: put on your gi. When he asks "what are you doing?", tell him: "the same as you....changing clothes for a fight".
It might give him something to think about.

Chris

leslie ann

09-05-2009, 11:21 AM

hi kelly and welcome :hugs: i cant be dressed and argue with my S/O lol dressing takes me to a relaxed and warm place and argueing is not relaxing :2c: side note hes really missing out on a great place here maybe you could just leave your computer opened on this site so the next time hes on its allready here ?? good luck and try not to over think it too much

Misty is Kindafem

09-05-2009, 11:36 AM

KellyV,

Um, I think I'm starting to get a little crush on you. ;-)

Your posts are outstanding and your SO really needs to wake up. Somebody needs to have a direct and honest conversation with her and there's a few girls on this board that would love to do it.

I don't think you're going to get through because I believe you intimidate her. You're sharp as a tack and you know her awful secret, it's no wonder she needs to "man" up.

She needs a friend.

The worst part about this thing is the isolation. It's a shame that a lifetime of societal pressure has the potential of screwing up the best thing he's ever managed to do; find you.

-Misty

Crysten

09-05-2009, 11:44 AM

And if she's so pretty (as you describe) - well, where is her picture!!

Hmmmmmmm????? :battingeyelashes:

deja true

09-05-2009, 11:56 AM

Kelly ... Not a chance in the world at this point. I mentioned this forum and maybe talking to other people in his position which was immediately met with "so, you're saying there's something wrong with me!" and no matter how gently I try to re-approach the subject I'm immediately shot down.

Yowch!

This is maybe the root of the problem... a refusal to even try to accept....
I guess most would say that you've gotta back off a little ... but...
I'm thinkin' that very quiet, very calm, very loving, very gentle pressure might help...

no recriminations ... no expressed frustration .... just love!

It seems it's really in his hands, hun. You've done your best!

:straightface:

(Hmmm! quick late thought ... might it be possible to print out these pages and offer them to him? He's got to be able to get an inkling that his isolating behaviour is not the best reaction to your acceptance. Misty is right ... he needs a friend ... that was my emphasis on the benefit of "peers" to talk with. There are scores of potential friends and shoulders to cry on right here...)

Kathi Lake

09-05-2009, 01:03 PM

Kelly,

Two things come to mind while reading this whole (very interesting) post.

One, when your boyfriend strikes back defensively (and it sounds like he will due to his level of self-acceptance) with "You think there's something wrong with me." Reply along the lines of, "No. I am simply looking for support to wrap my head around this concept - one that you have had a lifetime to work on."

The second thing is your strength as a woman. I think may on this board will agree that women - through the benefit of their communication skills, their genetics, their upbringing, and their natural flexibility - are the "stronger" sex. You talk of walking on eggshells so as not to crush him. Are you talking of his feminine side or of his male?

Finally, I'm glad you said the word "pretty" when referencing your boyfriend. That implies a level of acceptance that may surprise even you. Many women would find it distasteful to admit that their man makes a pretty woman.

Kathi

Rhonda Jean

09-05-2009, 01:40 PM

KellyV,
I don't know how old you are or what kind of life experience you bring to this, but (speaking as one whose "been through it") you display an incredible level of matter-of-fact acceptance, maturity, and love that really is a quantum leap above what most ever achieve. As almost an aside, I can't imagine why he'd ever argue with you about ANYTHING! That'd solve the problem! If you guys don't make it, it's not on you! If he loses you, he'll regret it for the rest
of his life.

I'm not one who blames SO's for not accepting, even though that lack of acceptance cost me a 30 year marriage, and the love of my life. We ask for, and maybe even expect, to not be judged too harshly for being wired a little differently. The flip side of that is that we shouldn't be too quick to blame our SO's if they're not wired to accept it.

You are truly a gem. I suspect that this matter-of-fact attitude carries over into all other aspects of your life. It's really wonderful! Give yourself a pat on the back. Maybe you've picked up some valuable insight from this thread, but don't let it complicate your simple outlook. I love it!

JenniferZ2009

09-05-2009, 01:45 PM

The only thing I can say is that for me there are days that I get home from work put on some heavy metal music, take my shirt off, leave my pants and socks on and go to bed.

I say this because there are just moments that we go through that nothing seams right and we go to what we "know". For me that is sleeping in my male pants, socks on and no shirt. That is how I slept when I was a firefighter many years ago (makes you able to get dressed and out the door faster) and that is my ultimate happy place, and at the same time sad, in my life. I do this on my really rough personal days when "Jennifer" and "Brian" are hashing things out and I don't quit feel comfortable wherever I am.

Joanne f

09-05-2009, 01:56 PM

[QUOTE=KellyV GG;1858088]

Now I feel like I have to walk on eggshells to protect his fragile side. Which doesn't seem fair, but at the same time I wish I could take all of that away and certainly don't want to make it worse. But if something non CD related is bothering me is it better to wait until he's in boy mode and therefore more comfortable with himself before we deal with it? I know that if I have to tiptoe around for months or years until he feels comfortable with himself I will more than likely really resent it.

No in my opinion you do not and should not walk on egg shells, you just act normal in that way he will get use to your normality and will get over his difficulties a lot quicker , it mite sound odd but that is the way it works as the more you shelter him the longer it will take him to realise that you look upon it as something quite normal and acceptable for him to be doing (that is the Cding ) not the tantrums .

ReineD

09-05-2009, 03:53 PM

Kelly, :hugs:

You've said many things I'd like to address. I hope you don't mind the long post. If my advice seems harsh, it is not intended to make you feel uncomfortable, but to try to point you to a different way of thinking. When I first began seeing my BF, not knowing how to be in a relationship with a CD seemed like such a huge issue, since I had never been in a situation like this. It was difficult for me to separate the CDing from the non-CDing issues, and this was the primary reason I joined this forum.

Is it possible to ever be comfortable with anyone if you are dealing with constant guilt and shame?

It takes time. Lots of non-CDs deal with guilt or shame over past events, or other issues .. like jealousy, or depression. Life is cyclical and it does require an SO to be patient, as long as the one who experiences the issue recognizes he or she needs to work on it. You never know if one day you might be the one with a difficult issue to deal with and you will want him to be there to support you.

You can let him know that you understand how difficult it is for him to talk about this, since you know he's had to keep it to himself all his life, but it is hard for you when he doesn't let you in. Gently ask him to work on this, and tell him you will do your best to continue to be supportive in any way he wants you to be.

I asked him what makes him want to dress, which I did last night. His answer: a very uncomfortable "dunno, it's just clothes". And when I tried to push it farther he completely shut down. Don't know where to go from here.

Go back and read the last paragraph of post #36 for suggestions! :)

Now I feel like I have to walk on eggshells to protect his fragile side. Which doesn't seem fair, but at the same time I wish I could take all of that away and certainly don't want to make it worse.

You do not need to walk on eggshells. Just accept where he is with the CDing at the moment, and don't try to rush a resolution. The best you can do is to be there when he wants to talk about it, but otherwise, step back and just enjoy her company.

But if something non CD realted is bothering me is it better to wait until he's in boy mode and therefore more comfortable with himself before we deal with it? I know that if I have to tiptoe around for months or years until he feels comfortable with himself I will more than likely really resent it.

Unless he dresses far more often than he is in guy mode, then yes I would wait until he is no longer dressed if something unpleasant comes up that needs to be discussed. Certainly anything to do with the CDing. Think of it this way: if you and he (in guy mode) had looked forward for weeks to celebrate an anniversary at an exclusive restaurant, and something came up during dinner, wouldn't you let it slide and reserve the discussion until later?

Having said that, once my BF and I were at a GLBT club while dressed, and something happened to upset me. I excused myself and took a walk outside to center myself again, and came back in when my head was clear. We discussed the issue the next day. I've discussed things at the moment in the past, and believe me, the results were much better when I waited. Not so much for him, but for me, since I was calmer.

Lol. It gets easier. Last weekend we went to a burlesque show dressed. He knew that a stripper he had dated a few times some years ago had organized the show, but it turned out that she was also starring in it, with her long blonde hair and perfect body. (Probably implants!) :p She did a hot, steamy number with another woman. They sensuously spread wet, milky paint all over their naked bodies with their hands and washed it off again very slowly, also using their tongues and arching their backs. You could almost hear the hard breathing of every man around us. :rolleyes: I nearly walked out, :) but I took a deep breath and took it in stride. I was very relieved when the number was over with. We talked it over afterwards and everything was fine.

Getting back to you, another suggestion might be to tell him you feel upset about something and it cannot wait, so ask him if he would like to change first before you discuss it together.

I accept her, have shopped for her, have done her make-up, have run all over London searching for the right wigs, shoes, etc...which I would never even do for myself, too much bother. So...here she is, everythings complicated and I'm running around like a mad woman trying to make sure she has what she needs. This is supposed to be a good thing but it just gets more and more complex.

Kelly, you need to stop doing this. You are not responsible for her CDing. And you will wear yourself ragged. This is no fun for anyone, not even your BF. Let him take the lead. You can suggest things, but let her or him decide. Once in a while, for a nice surprise, you can bring home a small gift, but the rest is entirely up to him.

...
In fact, as PaulaJane says, you may even be exacerbating his retreat into himself. Not ever having had any acceptance, he may be finding yours almost unbelievable. And, oddly, that's kinda scary, too.

So there must be another way...

He may also feel rushed to be who he is not ready to be right now, just to make you happy. This is not unheard of. Take a back seat to it, Kelly, and just turn the matter back into his hands.

It hurts to see someone you love going thru something neither one of you understand. It's horrible to see it..or anything..as a curse you are forced to live with.

Yes, but that's life. None of us can live other people's pain. Do you have children? As parents we realize the best we can do is be supportive, be there if they need us, but let them fly on their own and make their own mistakes. This applies to everyone ... siblings, partners, friends. The trick is to learn to be OK when life isn't perfect, because we have no other choice. We cannot fix things for everyone. And we wouldn't expect others to take care of our issues either. Try to look at the CDing as a journey that the two of you are embarking upon together, and try to be OK with not knowing and letting go of the outcomes.

Not a chance in the world at this point. I mentioned this forum and maybe talking to other people in his position which was immediately met with "so, you're saying there's something wrong with me!" and no matter how gently I try to re-approach the subject I'm immediately shot down.

The answer is simple: "Not at all .. I just thought you might enjoy talking to people who are quite happy with the CDing. But, it is entirely up to you, I'm happy with whatever you decide."
:hugs:

KellyV GG

09-06-2009, 08:04 AM

Yowch!

This is maybe the root of the problem... a refusal to even try to accept....
I guess most would say that you've gotta back off a little ... but...
I'm thinkin' that very quiet, very calm, very loving, very gentle pressure might help...

no recriminations ... no expressed frustration .... just love!

Refusal to accept is definately the root of the problem I think.
He claims that he's never done this before, that it's just a new thing that's come on since I've been in his life. Gawd...How frustrating is that to hear? Please...how insulting. So he's using me to justify this to me. It doesn't help that I'm a New Yorker, living in London and he's from a quaint little nicey nicey English village so communication wise what I consider gentle pressure could be interpreted as coming on like a steam roller.

KellyV,

I don't think you're going to get through because I believe you intimidate her. You're sharp as a tack and you know her awful secret, it's no wonder she needs to "man" up.

She needs a friend.

Well, I know I'm not going to get thru and I know I intimidate her/him...and I know he's ashamed and I know he/she (very hard to call him her) needs a friend but it's not gonna happen. I''m hoping time will change that....

Kelly,

One, when your boyfriend strikes back defensively (and it sounds like he will due to his level of self-acceptance) with "You think there's something wrong with me." Reply along the lines of, "No. I am simply looking for support to wrap my head around this concept - one that you have had a lifetime to work on."

Tried that...he claims that this is all new and apparently just popped up out of nowhere so when I brought that up he acted all offended. How do you respond to that?

You talk of walking on eggshells so as not to crush him. Are you talking of his feminine side or of his male?
Both really. He's appears super confident. But god forbid I mention that someone else is attractive or not notice something he's done. He takes everything so personally. So...I knew he had self esteem issues but all of this new stuff sure explains all of that, I guess. Phew...hard enough dealing with a touchy man, now I have to deal with an insecure woman too.

KellyV,

. The flip side of that is that we shouldn't be too quick to blame our SO's if they're not wired to accept it.

Imagine this...your wife has a secret. Your underwear starts disapearing. So do your stockings. One day, she drops a bomb on you. It's something you can't even begin to understand. She needs you to tho, it's "who she is". She needs an entirely new wardrobe, is shopping like crazy -12 of everything isn't enough, it takes over your life. She has to do it, she needs to express herself. And you need to accept an entirely new personality. She splits apart in front of you and can't even explain to you what she's going thru or why or how it feels...nothing. On top of that, your social life completely changes, you spend evenings in because she can't leave the house and express herself the way she needs to. it's now your secret too. This new person is moody, touchy, confused and probably needs therapy. There's not alot you can do to help. She expects you to understand and accept this new alter ego. You begin questioning her sexuality, your own and you have no idea where this may lead. How many men...or women...are wired to accept something like that. I don't think many men would be very accepting at all. I don't know why it's not a problem for me, why I haven't flinched, we are all different but it's alot to ask another person to accept at face value.

tell him you will do your best to continue to be supportive in any way he wants you to be.

ReineD...thank you so much for the excellent post and fantastic advice. It's very much appreciated and taken to heart. Here's an example of how touchy he/she is...when I dared use the word supportive he got all upset because "just because I like to wear women's clothing to relax doesn't mean I need support. You make it sound like I have a problem". There's apparently not a thing I can say....

ChrisP

09-06-2009, 09:38 AM

Kelly,

It sounds like he's in full defensive mode currently.

My guess is that all you can do now is try to open the lines of communication without pushing him away.

The ball is in his court. If he can't find a way to reach out to you, you may have to reconsider the relationship.
I'd give it more time.

Also a tip a therapist told me once (and assuming that he has no substance abuse history).....get him tipsy over a bottle of wine or drinks, while you stay relatively sober. Now gently probe him over these issues, and you might see some interesting information come forth. It's worth a try.

Good luck,
Chris

ReineD

09-06-2009, 10:40 AM

Imagine this...your wife has a secret. Your underwear starts disapearing. So do your stockings. One day, she drops a bomb on you. It's something you can't even begin to understand. She needs you to tho, it's "who she is". She needs an entirely new wardrobe, is shopping like crazy -12 of everything isn't enough, it takes over your life. She has to do it, she needs to express herself. And you need to accept an entirely new personality. She splits apart in front of you and can't even explain to you what she's going thru or why or how it feels...nothing. On top of that, your social life completely changes, you spend evenings in because she can't leave the house and express herself the way she needs to. it's now your secret too. This new person is moody, touchy, confused and probably needs therapy. There's not alot you can do to help. She expects you to understand and accept this new alter ego. You begin questioning her sexuality, your own and you have no idea where this may lead. How many men...or women...are wired to accept something like that. I don't think many men would be very accepting at all. I don't know why it's not a problem for me, why I haven't flinched, we are all different but it's alot to ask another person to accept at face value.

I know it is hard to adjust to a CDing relationship, both for the CD and the GG. But, it would be hard to adjust to any situation out of the norm. Think of a spouse developing clinical depression. Or MS. Or having experienced the death of a child, one of the partners can no longer function. Or say you become a paraplegic after an accident. Or there is a torrid affair with someone else. There are many situations that can make relationships difficult.

I don't know what it is that enables couples to get through life's challenges together and survive. But some do. They get through it and reap the rewards later. Or they cannot and they split up. I think it has to do with the amount of love and commitment there is in a relationship and having the ability to communicate and compromise.

If the relationship is unbearable for you, then you need to walk away. If you believe your love to be strong enough to try to make it work, then it might be best to try different tactics than you have already. Either way, it is your choice. You cannot "make" him be the person you want him to be, and vice-versa. Like it or not, the CDing is at whatever point it is in his life and he needs to resolve his issues at his own pace. Explaining things to him calmly as I've suggested before is really the only way, and then leave it at that. Do not engage with him if he accuses you of believing that he is sick and he "needs support".

He either is as difficult to talk to as you describe, or the two of you are communicating on entirely different planes. We cannot tell you what to do, or how to "fix" him, or if he should tell his side, how he could "fix" you. But the anger you feel, although very real and understandable, will not help the two of you move beyond this.

You need to decide, Kelly, whether staying in this relationship is what you really want. And if you do want to make it work, well, we all know it is not easy .... lol. You don't need to convince us. But do go back, take one or two of the suggestions you've received, and try them out. And try to keep your cool. :hugs: I hope you can make things work.
:hugs:

Last thought ... if he is not ready to share the CDing with you as much as you would like him to, then why not just wait until he can? I'm assuming you live the bulk of your lives together while he is in guy mode?

Misty is Kindafem

09-06-2009, 12:29 PM

This is one of those situations the GG's talk about.

It's NOT the dressing that's the problem. If this wonderful woman can't make this work, the CD'r will surely blame it on the dressing but I think we've all clearly seen the real issue.

KellyV, your posts are riveting.

-Misty

Rhonda Jean

09-06-2009, 01:29 PM

Kelly,
I may not have been very clear. What I meant was I dont blame SO's (you) when you can't accept us (cders). Sorry about the confusion. Believe me, I'm on your side.

For what it's worth, I think you're dealing with something beyond crossdressing here. I've crossdressed for a long time, and, from reading posts on here and elsewhere for a long time, I'd say I'm pretty typical (althought that covers a lot of ground). MOST of what you dexcribe is very different from me. The clothing is just an adjunct. My very non-professional diagnosis is... this is a mess.

I wouldn't have any idea how to start making this better, and I AM a crossdresser!

Christina Horton

09-06-2009, 02:31 PM

Ok first welcome to our family. Now I am responding before I read all the responses why, Well I have a thought and want to express it first. Now for me and maybe for you BF when he's dressed he feels very feminine, So his emotions are right there. We men are taught to NOT get emotional and be manly. When he's dressed and you argue , He does not know how to handle the feeling and the raw emotion SHE is now having. Changing back to Male-mode is a self defence mechanism to keep his emotional ("DAM" so to speak) for breaking until he can get used to all of the fem-felling she will have. We are like little girls whom can't control of crying anger etc. Joy comes easy but the rest comes slower. We are like teenagers when it comes to shopping , makeup etc. We also have the emotion of a teen. Just not sure how to deal with it so she has to change back to something that HE can handle better. Now when you bf is in fem-mode more and experiences the wave of emotion's that women do ( granted we may never get there fully but we may get close) we are over whelmed by them. Just think of the way you feel when things go right , or go so wrong, That's when we can feel 24/7 since most of us can remember but could and was taught not to express. Now that he can it over loads her and makes her go the what she has been used to all her life.

Men and women have such a different way of dealing with there emotions that it can seam weired , but you just have to think , "my bf is dealing with two fully different sets of emotions that her/his feeling might confuse her/him. I only use her/him when I want to show the two side of a CD. We (most of us) have had this fight most if not all our life and when we have to deal with it fully it can scare , or confuse us. I have know I was a CDer since I was 4 , but did not know why and kelp it from everyone. So until I came out to my family and friends in 92 no one even had a clue. Now I can go out dressed and been having the time of my life. I have no girl friend right now but I am looking.

So if that happens again just tell her if you think she is going to change tell her that even though your arguing she should stay dressed cuz she need to deal with the emotions she feels. YNK she might have a break through.

I hope I helped , I may be off base but that's the way I see it. It's my :2c: worth. good luck and please keep and open mind she is very , very ,lucky to have you. :love::hugs:

Ok i just read all through. There has been a lot of great advice here and only you can decide what you need to take.

Argggghhhh...what does that mean????? Geeeeeeeezzzz....I have given him 1000% freedom...it's all about him getting in touch with her right now in our lives. Sorry to get off topic but...what's the answer???? Slow him down to give him a chance to process his feelings or just take the hinges off the closet door like I have and let him go wild. Really it's not my place to determine that, it's his life, his issue to process but I'm trying....it's impossible to figure out. At least I can borrow his lipstick...looking for upsides.

When some one is in jail for 20 30 years and get out, Fear in all around, They can't get used to being free, their used to being told when to eat when to sleep , what to do for work etc. Now there out free and now there scared and don't know how to deal with it. It can be similar to CDing . You (locked up in your own mind) and now you find a GF that has set you free and you don't know what to think. Your so used to someone tell you what to do that the out side world seems big and scary. She also might be in denial on how long he has wanted to do this. Although some CDs have been late bloomers and found they like to dress after 30 40 50 years and it scares them and even if they have the love and acceptance of a GF they are as said ashamed and guilty cuz they don't know why there not the man they thought they were. The girls like me who knew since we were kids may be a little better and faster at excepting our true selves , but we still need time. As I said I came out when I was 22 to my family and I did not start dressing until last year Aug 8 2008 , that's how long it took me to (get ready to dressssssssssss) And I excepted my CDing when was about 10 to 13 or so. After I started to dress out in public it took me about 10 month to be really comfortable with all of my life as a CD. Your BF need time to get there .

What are the right questions to ask without sounding like I'm accusing him of something and without him getting defensive? It's very uncomfortable even going there..I'm not sure that he knows how he feels and I don't want to push it but I know that we REALLY need to talk about it.....thanks!

The right questions are the ones in your heart you need to be asked. You need to sit HIM down and tell him you care for him as much as you do and make sure that he knows that you love his fem-side and will wait for him/her to be comfortable en-fem. It will be a waiting game until he figgers out his feeling . Just remember he has to deal with male and Female feeling. If you think its hard for you it will be twice as hard for him. Good luck and if you need My support just PM me hun KK.:love: Your the best hun.

docrobbysherry

09-06-2009, 04:45 PM

...if you are dealing with something that causes so much shame, guilt and confusion and continuing to do it causes more shame and guilt, what's the benefit?

It's so hard to understand. And how do I make it easier? He won't talk about it and quite obviously doesn't know how to define what's going on inside himself.
........Cheers....Kelly

I've been dealing with guilt ever since I started dressing about 10 years ago. I was over 50, and had never even THOT of trying on ladies things! That has happened to others here, too! So, it COULD have happened to your BF!

I kept my CD secret completely inside for 8 years!

What's the benefit, and why can't I quit? Compulsiveness DOESN'T run in my family! No alcoholics, gamblers, smokers, or druggies! All hardworking family folks! So,what is it about my "recent" CDing that is so compulsive?

I REALLY DON'T KNOW!:doh:

Kelly, men r used to talking things over with their buds! They DON'T tend to talk about VERY personal subjects directly, but somehow, walk around the edge of those subjects. Many compassionate men, will NOT push too hard for details!

I have NOT found that same compassion in women. In my experience, they'll push for every juicy detail! On the other hand, women seem more compassionate when they've heard those details, than men r!

My point being, I can discuss almost anything with my buds! I think they would be thotful, helpful, and keep our conversations to themselves! Even if I was gay! However, CDs MITE fall into the same category as pediphiles with them!
If they told folks about me, they'd rationalize that they were WARNING THEM!:sad:

Your BF may have the same problem! Being used to discussing his personal problems with his men buds. But, unable to reveal his CDing to them!

Kelly, I suggest u stick with him as long as u r able to. Be helpful, supportive, and there for him. If HE wants to talk, great! He'll eventually HAVE to talk to someone. I feel sure that if u r there for the long haul, it will be to u!:hugs:

Karen Francis

09-06-2009, 09:19 PM

There is a certain "mood" that makes for a successful crossdressing experience. Because of the "vigorous discussion" that had nothing to do with crossdressing, his mood changed and and it was no longer enjoyable.

Try having intimate relations after having the same argument, I'll bet it doesn't work out too well either...

KellyV GG

09-08-2009, 07:45 AM

Kelly,

My guess is that all you can do now is try to open the lines of communication without pushing him away.

The ball is in his court. If he can't find a way to reach out to you, you may have to reconsider the relationship.
I'd give it more time.

Also a tip a therapist told me once (and assuming that he has no substance abuse history).....get him tipsy over a bottle of wine or drinks, while you stay relatively sober. Now gently probe him over these issues, and you might see some interesting information come forth. It's worth a try.

Good luck,
Chris

Thanks Chris...I might just try that. But in do I do it when he's in girl or boy mode? I'm not even close to reconsidering this relationship. I know that I need patience...that's hard tho.

One good thing...we were in a neighborhood in London yesterday we have never been to before. There were some funky little shops and in one of them were 3 CD'ers, not even close to passing but looking really good, shopping away and having a great time. So I said see....it's not that strange at all. Perfect timing for that to happen. And then we got him several skirts. And he did talk to me a little bit last night while in boy mode. So guess I'm gonna have to be happy with little bits as they come out.

Like it or not, the CDing is at whatever point it is in his life and he needs to resolve his issues at his own pace. Explaining things to him calmly as I've suggested before is really the only way, and then leave it at that. Do not engage with him if he accuses you of believing that he is sick and he "needs support".

You're right...it's just that I think I have been wonderful, therefore I deserve to know exactly what point the CDing is at in his life. And I know...maybe he doesn't know himself. It will be a long time before I suggest anything that puts him in a place to accuse me of believing he's sick or needs support. That's frustrating ecspecially when I know how much just this forum would help him.

But the anger you feel, although very real and understandable, will not help the two of you move beyond this.

I don't think I'm angry....definately very frustrated. OK and maybe a bit resentful because I think that if you're going to be in a relationship and you're lucky enough to have an understanding, non-judgemental partner then whta's the problem?

Last thought ... if he is not ready to share the CDing with you as much as you would like him to, then why not just wait until he can? I'm assuming you live the bulk of your lives together while he is in guy mode?

Although he's is guy mode way more than girl mode...the shopping, etc...well, you all know....it's always right there so he might as well be dressed all of the time. Don't want to wait, but it's the best nd only thing I can do, I guess....thanks for that.

It's NOT the dressing that's the problem.

-Misty

Ooo... this just occured to me. Using the dressing as a scapegoat for anything and everything is the easy way out of anything and everything....isn't it? Hmmmm...

Kelly,
I may not have been very clear. What I meant was I dont blame SO's (you) when you can't accept us (cders). Sorry about the confusion. Believe me, I'm on your side.

Sorry..I know you are. Just had a little rant that needed to come out, I guess.

I wouldn't have any idea how to start making this better, and I AM a crossdresser!

Yikes...

when he's dressed he feels very feminine, So his emotions are right there. We men are taught to NOT get emotional and be manly. When he's dressed and you argue , He does not know how to handle the feeling and the raw emotion SHE is now having.
Men and women have such a different way of dealing with there emotions that it can seam weired , but you just have to think , "my bf is dealing with two fully different sets of emotions that her/his feeling might confuse her/him. asked.

Christina....thank you for the wonderful post. I so appreciate your willingness to share all of that. Very helpful, thanks again. The split emotions are something I hadn't considered before posting here. And I can't say I understand but maybe it's one of those things where you just can't walk in someone else's shoes (in this case heels...) So..is it like having a split emotional life inside of you, as opposed to an alter ego or secondary...or primary or equal, whatever...personality? And do I have to live with 2 emotional personalities that react and process things in very or completely different manners? Can you ever just integrate it all and get to a healthy emotional place or do you have to pick a side...or let the side pick you, I guess...

I've been dealing with guilt ever since I started dressing about 10 years ago. I was over 50, and had never even THOT of trying on ladies things! That has happened to others here, too! So, it COULD have happened to your BF!

How can that be??? It seriously just popped up out of nowhere? Which is what he claims (he/she is 41). But....the first time I watched him put on stockings...well, seemed a little too natural to him. Ha....as I write this I just got a text that the 3 pairs of new shoes and skirt and blouse he ordered from New Look just arrived...oh my.... Anyway...how does that happen? Do you think you repressed it for 50 years or what/how/why???

There is a certain "mood" that makes for a successful crossdressing experience.

This is what really bugs me...that I have to take the mood into consideration or god forbid unintentionally say or do something that will spoil the "mood". His/her mood... I do ubnderstand what everyone has said and how complicated it really is, but it makes me want to do something like wear a green hat, or something...no one is allowed to upset me when I'm wearing my green hat because there's a certain mood that goes along with wearing my hat and as along as it's on please do not upset me. Alright that sounds immature, bratty and over simplified, but....I don't know.

Thank you all, really. I can't even imagine how I would be dealing with this if I hadn't found all of you wonderful people....xxx Kelly xxx

PaulaJaneThomas

09-08-2009, 10:30 AM

One good thing...we were in a neighborhood in London yesterday we have never been to before. There were some funky little shops and in one of them were 3 CD'ers, not even close to passing but looking really good, shopping away and having a great time. So I said see....it's not that strange at all. Perfect timing for that to happen. And then we got him several skirts. And he did talk to me a little bit last night while in boy mode. So guess I'm gonna have to be happy with little bits as they come out.

Serendipitous. With luck, it might get his mind going in a more positive direction. It's hard work with some people (Pretty Moody Tranny syndrome or PMT).

Ras

09-08-2009, 10:58 AM

Kelly, you have gone way beyond what many GG's would do. I don't understand why he had to change into male clothes to argue with you. So you should be upset at this.

It sounds like you have gone way out of your to be supportive and helpful. Many CDer's would die to be in his place. It also sounds like he still has some insecurities about dressing..since he felt the need to change

ReineD

09-08-2009, 01:36 PM

Kelly, you have gone way beyond what many GG's would do. I don't understand why he had to change into male clothes to argue with you. So you should be upset at this.

Ras, of course you are entitled to your opinion and as well meaning and supportive to Kelley your post is, her BF is where he is at with the CDing and IMO he doesn't need to be judged. There must have been a time, in your own progression, where you would have been mortified to even be seen dressed, let alone discuss emotional issues with someone else.

Had Kelley's BF been dressing with her for years, then you would have a point. But right now I'm afraid Kelly needs to move beyond being upset if she and her BF have any hope of moving past their communication difficulties.
:hugs:

silkyness

09-08-2009, 01:49 PM

I have this problem too. I just came out to my girlfriend. I don't feel comfortable getting dressed around her yet, and during arguments I just have no desire to dress anymore. It's not because I feel more superior, it just somehow also makes me feel wrong about dressing. Like my man hormones kick in and go "you're not supposed to be wearing this".

Rhonda Jean

09-08-2009, 02:34 PM

What I get out of this is that Kelly's BF is saying "Feed me, feed me, feed me, I'm special, I'm misunderstood," and Kelly is knocking herself out trying to feed him and it's never enough, or it's too much, or there's something not right about it. This would drive anybody nuts! I'd be lying if I said I'd never done something similarly idiotic, but it's still idiotic! My God! Being a crossdresser may make one a little atypical, but it isn't a license to be an inconsiderate b#$tard! He needs to get a grip!

NatashaCD

09-08-2009, 02:49 PM

Hi Kelly very riveting thread I was in a relationship much like this but i didnt make her go out and buy me things she never bought anything for me anyway i was open to her i wanted her to register up with this forum but she refused if she did most of the things you are doing it would have been a much stronger relationship I told her i dress even before we met so the ball was in her court to take it further and she did we wound up arguing alot mainly due to the fact that she never even bothered looking into sites like this I applaud you Kelly for making the effort and i do hope your b/f gets over it and comes around and realizes how damn lucky he really is *hugz*

Ras

09-08-2009, 02:57 PM

Reine, I was not meaning to "judge" but merely stating my observation form her posts as to ho9w he was reacting. We all have had insecurities with our dressing and the fear of being rejected or call many different names or even being outed. Even after all my years of dressing I still have some insecurites and am trying to answer the question why do I dress. Some days it does not bother me..others it does.

I agree with they need to be very open and communicate what they both want, need and desire and how this will progress so BOTH are happy and acceptable of the dressing.

Ras, of course you are entitled to your opinion and as well meaning and supportive to Kelley your post is, her BF is where he is at with the CDing and IMO he doesn't need to be judged. There must have been a time, in your own progression, where you would have been mortified to even be seen dressed, let alone discuss emotional issues with someone else.

Had Kelley's BF been dressing with her for years, then you would have a point. But right now I'm afraid Kelly needs to move beyond being upset if she and her BF have any hope of moving past their communication difficulties.
:hugs:

ReineD

09-08-2009, 10:56 PM

:iagree: :)

Kathi Lake

09-08-2009, 11:19 PM

Can you ever just integrate it all and get to a healthy emotional place or do you have to pick a side...or let the side pick you, I guess...I believe that is exactly where many of us want to get to. I know that I am close. As a result though, I am seen as a bit odd. As a woman, I dress as a woman, my mannerisms are those of a woman, my speech patterns are those of a woman. My voice, however, stays firmly in the male range. Reason? Well, I'm not a woman, nor do I really want to be one. I am a guy that simply likes to dress as fully as possible - mostly for blending. Someone who looks like a woman from a distance will get less looks than one that is obviously a male in a dress (in my experience, anyway). Plus, it's fun!

As a man, I dress as a man. My speech patterns are less womanly, but still a bit on the feminine side (inflection, range, etc.), as are my mannerisms. I try to walk like a guy, but I kind of forgot how - a point of contention with my wife, who sees me walk from behind and says things like "Calm those hips down, Slugger!).

So, I am pretty firmly integrated - right in the middle. It may be a strange place to be, but you know what? I'm supremely happy! I view the desires I have not as a curse or a "condition" but a blessing. My life basically rocks. :)

Kathi

Christina Horton

09-08-2009, 11:42 PM

Christina....thank you for the wonderful post. I so appreciate your willingness to share all of that. Very helpful, thanks again. The split emotions are something I hadn't considered before posting here. And I can't say I understand but maybe it's one of those things where you just can't walk in someone Else's shoes (in this case heels...) So..is it like having a split emotional life inside of you, as opposed to an alter ego or secondary...or primary or equal, whatever...personality? And do I have to live with 2 emotional personalities that react and process things in very or completely different manners? Can you ever just integrate it all and get to a healthy emotional place or do you have to pick a side...or let the side pick you, I guess...

Well HE/SHE has both in what ever his mode is. It is a part of him not 2 personalities but one. When he is in Male mode he is expressing his male side he grew up with. In fem-mode he is expressing the girl he has either repressed all his life or just found. When you talk to his male side you are TALKING to a man who just happens to have a large female side to him. I started a thread awhile ago here's the link it might help you understand My thoughts on our struggle with it.http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103226 . Now this is just my idea of how we feel but you also get some others giving there take on there own feeling on the subject. It will be a hard road and he will struggle with inner demons until he is really to open up fully. He could be so afraid that when he does open up to you fully that you will be disgusted and leave him. YNK.

Oh if I forgot to say this YOU ROCK BABY.!!!!:D:love:

Satrana

09-09-2009, 04:56 AM

Now I feel like I have to walk on eggshells to protect his fragile side. Which doesn't seem fair, but at the same time I wish I could take all of that away and certainly don't want to make it worse. But if something non CD realted is bothering me is it better to wait until he's in boy mode and therefore more comfortable with himself before we deal with it? I know that if I have to tiptoe around for months or years until he feels comfortable with himself I will more than likely really resent it.

If he is dressing regularly as you describe than that should allow him to get to grips much faster with his emotions and feelings than most other members here who are usually greatly restricted when they can transform, so I would say months rather than years. It is in effect a female puberty that he is going through - it takes time to explore and understand what it all means and to get the initial excitement of new experiences under his belt.

What is unfair to you and many other SOs is when the CD does not want to grow up. The fun and escapism of having an alter ego is addictive and many CDs are happy to keep two seperate identities. This is an unhealthy situation and a difficult one to accommodate inside a relationship. You are quite right to demand that this type of split personality is not going to work and you expect him, in due course with your support, to become self-accepting and fuse his femininity into his normal personality. He needs to be just him irregardless of what clothes he wears. He needs to be able to feel feminine without having to always resort to the trigger mechanism of dressing up.

But as others have said you need to be patient, this is going to take a while. Don't fall for the trap of resenting him and his dressing because that will destroy your relationship. It is like dealing with a kid - one minute they make you laugh, the next they make you want to tear your hair out. But kids grow up and so will your SO if you give him the space and support.

One other thing, his sensitivity about his dressing as being considered as something wrong - you need to reassure him that is not the case, rather it is the split personality that is wrong. His job is to integrate his feelings so that you can have a normal life together with a single person, your job is to accept femininity is normal and healthy in men and not to judge him by expecting masculine stereotypical behavior from him.

A CD is the same as a tomboy except that isolation and shame forces us into a closeted fantasyland of escapism and using coping mechanisms like a split personality. A tomboy is not weird or unnatural, you may consider yourself one, but tomboys do not follow the contorted path that CDs do. However it does not have to be this way if you are prepared to offer a guiding hand back to reality.

KellyV GG

09-09-2009, 07:38 AM

What I get out of this is that Kelly's BF is saying "Feed me, feed me, feed me, I'm special, I'm misunderstood," and Kelly is knocking herself out trying to feed him and it's never enough, or it's too much, or there's something not right about it.

Don't you think that will balance out in time? Or have I been such an enabler that it won't unless I start ignoring it and let him do his thing? Phew...I need a vacation.

I applaud you Kelly for making the effort and i do hope your b/f gets over it and comes around and realizes how damn lucky he really is *hugz*

Thank you Natasha...

I am a guy that simply likes to dress as fully as possible - mostly for blending.
Do you mean personality blending? How long did it take you to find that balance.

My life basically rocks. :)

How cool is it for anyone to be able to say that?!

I started a thread awhile ago here's the link it might help you understand My thoughts on our struggle with it.http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103226 .

Thanks for the link! I do understand that the equation probably never changes no matter what mode he/she is in..but the difficult thing to wrap my mind around is the alter ego aspect, or the ability to move back and forth between sides until, maybe...I don't know, like Kathi mentioned, you find a place where you're blended. Meanwhile until that happens isn't it all very confusing? Certainly is from this side of things. Thanks again for the great posts and info....

It is in effect a female puberty that he is going through - it takes time to explore and understand what it all means and to get the initial excitement of new experiences under his belt.

Wow Satrana...thank you for this post. So, if I understand correctly...essentially, the repressed female personality has to go through a muturing process on it's own since it's been repressed for so long? That sure sounds like a personality split. Does the grown up male side know that he's dealing with an immature female side? Or is it just like a massive adrenaline rush, which is what I am seeing in him and her right now. It looks a bit bipolar. Sounds like a confusing state to be in.

The fun and escapism of having an alter ego is addictive and many CDs are happy to keep two seperate identities. This is an unhealthy situation and a difficult one to accommodate inside a relationship. You are quite right to demand that this type of split personality is not going to work and you expect him, in due course with your support, to become self-accepting and fuse his femininity into his normal personality. He needs to be just him irregardless of what clothes he wears. He needs to be able to feel feminine without having to always resort to the trigger mechanism of dressing up.

Is self acceptance all it takes to get there? And if you're happy simply living a part of you out through an alter ego...which is something I'm concerned about..how do I get him past that place into the place where he wants to be integrated? Am I making this more complicated than it is???

But as others have said you need to be patient, this is going to take a while. Don't fall for the trap of resenting him and his dressing because that will destroy your relationship. It is like dealing with a kid - one minute they make you laugh, the next they make you want to tear your hair out. But kids grow up and so will your SO if you give him the space and support.

Thanks for that. It certainly would be easy to resent it all as it does seem to be taking over his life right now. But thanks to all of you I think I get it, but it is such a self centered, self absorbed activity (if that's the right word). But I can live thru this if it means finding some balance at some point. But I am not completely sure about how to be supportive and give him space at the same time.

One other thing, his sensitivity about his dressing as being considered as something wrong - you need to reassure him that is not the case, rather it is the split personality that is wrong. His job is to integrate his feelings so that you can have a normal life together with a single person, your job is to accept femininity is normal and healthy in men and not to judge him by expecting masculine stereotypical behavior from him.

Thank you

A CD is the same as a tomboy except that isolation and shame forces us into a closeted fantasyland of escapism and using coping mechanisms like a split personality. A tomboy is not weird or unnatural, you may consider yourself one, but tomboys do not follow the contorted path that CDs do. However it does not have to be this way if you are prepared to offer a guiding hand back to reality. Well put, thank you. Actually, although I am a very girly girl, I do drive a custom Jeep, study martial arts, do alot of extreme sports where I am often the only girl involved. So I get that. But thank you for expressing that so beautifully.

Rhonda Jean

09-09-2009, 10:15 AM

Kelly,
I've probably taken some liberties with my posts that come across like, "I'm THIS way, so anybody whose THAT way is messed up." I not a counsellor, so the only thing I have to offer is totally based on my own experience. Water them down appropriately for your own situation. I'm not an expert. Now, back to taking more liberties...

Crossdressing, ESPECIALLY with a supportive SO, should be delightful, fun, relaxing, a real high, something that creates a bond between a couple that is beyond that which is achieved under ordinary circumstances. Not just because you like the same clothes. Because of an understanding, an acceptance, an openness, and a trust that breaches the limits of the usual male-female realtionship. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't sound like that describes where y'all are with this.

Again, forgive me, but the picture I get is that of your BF as if he were dealing with some debilitating disease and you as his caretaker.

Excuse the possibly unfortunate referrence, but if his thing was having a drink or several, this might be like him brooding at home waiting for you to bring his booze while you're out ther trying to find the perfect selection/s for him.

A very basic point here. For me, and I think most of us, shopping is my thing. Even in drab, even by myself, I'd rather shop for clothes and shoes than do most anything. Add an accepting wife or girlfriend, and it becomes so fun, exciting, and even therapeutic that it borders on illogical. With a wife or girlfriend AND enfemme and it surpasses illogical! In your case, though, you were running around picking things out for him. I totally don't get that!

When I was married and my wife would bring home something girly for me it was fantastic! But, those were just little special gifts for special/rare occasions. Certainly not things I asked her to do. Shopping together was what did it for me.

Being a crossdresser, transgender, or whatever flavor can lead to lonliness and isolation. I know it doen't HAVE to, but, let's face it, for many of us it does. I've never felt the guilt that many refer to, except when it cost me my marriage. Lonely and isolated, yes. I won't go through my whole biography here, but the best time in my life was when I was with a loving, accepting, encouraging wife who SEEMED to love everything about me, and who wasn't afraid to hold up a blouse in a dept. store and say , "I think this'd look cute on you!", or say she liked the color of my nails. It appears that your BF is missing out on exactly that kind of interaction. I don't get it.

Will all of this settle out in time? I don't know. I could kin of relate to him not being able to argue with you while he was dressed, but the rest of it I have no concept of. I guess that doesn't mean that it's unusual or wrong or whatever, I just can't relate to it. I commend you for trying to understand and dealing with it all on a very high level. We should all be so lucky!

KellyV GG

09-09-2009, 10:44 AM

.

Again, forgive me, but the picture I get is that of your BF as if he were dealing with some debilitating disease and you as his caretaker.

OMG...I hope I'm not as pathetic as that! What I really think is we're at the weird beginning stage and ya...with perhaps more issues than normal..whatever normal is...but I don't feel like it's a disaterous mess! I do realize that I act like a Jewish mother and feel like I need to do everything for everyone. but in this case my goal/hope is that he becomes comfortable enough with it all to take his own initiative. Like...now he's doing his own make-up and nails now and making some choices that don't involve my input. That's something, isn't it? I swear I'm not a doormat. Maybe just a little too helpful for my own good.

Excuse the possibly unfortunate referrence, but if his thing was having a drink or several, this might be like him brooding at home waiting for you to bring his booze while you're out ther trying to find the perfect selection/s for him. I really am not that pathetic.

A very basic point here. For me, and I think most of us, shopping is my thing. Even in drab, even by myself, I'd rather shop for clothes and shoes than do most anything. Add an accepting wife or girlfriend, and it becomes so fun, exciting, and even therapeutic that it borders on illogical. With a wife or girlfriend AND enfemme and it surpasses illogical! In your case, though, you were running around picking things out for him. I totally don't get that!

I so hope it gets to that place. Meanwhile, I think I deserve a medal, a trophy, a patch, a gold star and at the very least an a for effort. What do you suggest I do?

Being a crossdresser, transgender, or whatever flavor can lead to lonliness and isolation. I know it doen't HAVE to, but, let's face it, for many of us it does. I've never felt the guilt that many refer to, except when it cost me my marriage. Lonely and isolated, yes. I won't go through my whole biography here, but the best time in my life was when I was with a loving, accepting, encouraging wife who SEEMED to love everything about me, and who wasn't afraid to hold up a blouse in a dept. store and say , "I think this'd look cute on you!", or say she liked the color of my nails. It appears that your BF is missing out on exactly that kind of interaction. I don't get it.

Well...in a perfect world, if there is a perfect world for someone in my situation, when I met him he would have been more like you. Again...I hope we get to that place. Meanwhile, really...what do you think I should be doing. I'm very all or nothing in life and I'm just trying my best to get this and get it all out there. Maybe not in the most ideal way, but I'm trying.

Rhonda Jean

09-09-2009, 11:22 AM

I never thought about you being a doormat. You're someone very much in love, and that's pretty cool.

I do think you deserve a medal!

I don't know what you should do. Hopefully, when all the initial BS dissolves, crossdressing will become a comfortable backdrop for an otherwise fulfilling relationship. I don't know that there's anything you can DO to make that happen or if it'll just (hopefully) evolve. Good luck! My God, you're anything but pathetic. You're a gem! PM me if you'd like.

Angel.Marie76

09-09-2009, 12:09 PM

My goodness! Hi Kelly, you've had quite the experiences with your BF these days haven't you? :-) I'm just catching up here, so don't mind me if a little sounds redundant.

In all seriousness, I note in your last post that your BF has begun to do his own makeup and nails.. this is fantastic! From the perspective of someone (myself) who has only come out of the closet in the past year now, I can tell you it was one of the most confidence boosting moments to be able to look in the mirror and know that there was this beautiful woman staring back at me.. and it was all my own doing!

Going back through your posts, I can see that there is probably a significant amount of fear that he has about really digging inside himself to experience CDing in front of another person. In my own experiences, before I came out to my GF, I was primarily a closet dresser, only showing her face on Halloween here and there (but not so much as to arouse suspicion). I hinted about things like shaving my legs and playing with makeup and clothing with each and every one of my previous GF's and, except for my ex-wife, NONE of them accepted the idea of just teasing hints about it.. so I remained locked away for many years. It really, REALLY is one of the largest internal blows to your self-esteem when no one on this planet, it seems, 'gets you' and wants to let you be yourself without persecution. You have all these 'insane' and 'unusual' thoughts going through your head.. and seeing other TG/TS/CDer folks about ALWAYS made me feel like a two sided coin: Either I was doomed to hide myself in the closet, or I would have to be out, loud and proud! (which the thought of scared me to death)

When I started seeing my current GF, and a string of circumstances came about that I outed myself to her that I liked to dress, as many have read this story, she was, in the instant, accepting, and did some of the very things you've detailed in your messages. You, sweetheart, are a fantastic lady for respecting your BF and giving him the tools and support that he needs to figure out where he wants to 'be' with himself/herself.. Now, as with everything, there are certainly some negative emotions to be had, and I can tell you very clearly that my SO and I have had our share of ups and downs. Only a little while ago (lets say 4 monthsish ago), I could tell you that, when my GF and I fought, if I were dressed at that moment, I shrank away, almost to go and cry in a corner. Arguing destroyed every single drop of confidence it took to be able to sit there, in our apartment together, and be able to just 'be me' and relax. I would slink away, like some outcast, and start shedding my layers of external femininity.. My SO, she saw this, and stopped me, several times, with what can only be considered love an affection and has said so many things....

'Why are you changing?? You look beautiful... I'm not angry with you because of the dressing, don't change.. Why go through this effort if you're just going to strip it all off? If you want to dress like a woman, then you need to start acting like a grown up woman and DEAL with the issue and not run away... doesn't being like this make you comfortable? Why undo everything just to be 'a man' again if being dressed like a man doesn't make you comfortable??' and so on and on....

My biggest concerns are wrapped around when I'm /out/ in the world and at clubs, out shopping, you name it.. Your BF may not ever want to leave the home, but goodness, at least for me, my nerves have been so on edge when I'm out that one wrong conversation sometimes causes my whole ivory tower to collapse and I want to just turn and run home.. Times have passed though, and its amazing how much growing one can have in a year's time. At home, now, when I'm able to (80+% of the week) I dress, and, arguments or not, Angel stays. Out in public, confidence has been higher, and a little fretting now and then is par for the course. The end result is, if he's just cracking open his shell, then each new crack exposes new sensitive skin to a very REAL world, and it's up to him to be able to put makeup over those new cracks and hold himself together.

Now, I will say that we have indeed fought about my dressing/transition, but mostly because I've been transitioning slowly to presenting as a woman F/T.. and I can not stress enough - SLOWLY. She misses 'her man' and many of the traits that are held dear to that identity.. MAN-liness, beard stubble, hairy legs, you name it.. she's liked the idea of her protective man, and she's loosing him to another woman (so to speak). If you have problems with your BF's dressing and/or his mental state in regards, you have to certainly understand that, as so many others have said, you, nor he, may not even know how far he wants to go with this.. but that taken in time, in small doses, sometimes the end result does become more clear over time.

Granted, I do identify as Transgender / transsexual, so for me, gaining this experience and practice is but a journey towards not only better understanding myself internally but working (secondarily) on aligning my exterior self with the girl that's been hiding inside. This may not be anything like his own personal journey, so to each their own of course.

Watching my GF take all this in, helping me, coaching me, counseling me, guiding me.. has been great to experience as a part of our relationship. She has blossomed herself into a stronger woman as well, and holds my hand in public when we're out, and shows me affection without restraint (whereas when I first came out to her, it almost seemed like she was disgusted with the idea of paying attention to me in public - which hurt of course but is a separate conversation).

Believe me hun, if you're both strong enough to last through the first days/ weeks/ months/ perhaps years of experimentation and understanding, then your relationship with either flourish or, as in many cases, just reach a point of digression.. which should not necessarily be feared, but just understood. It is only in being true to ourselves that we can be true to each other. :hugs:

Best wishes to you and your honey, no matter what. :)

PS: Oh, and I wanted to add at the end that, simply, I agree with so much of what everyone else has been saying too; You need to make sure you LISTEN to your own limits as much as helping him define his.

Kathi Lake

09-09-2009, 02:25 PM

Do you mean personality blending? How long did it take you to find that balance.Well, the blending I meant was more of an appearance blending. If you see someone in a dress or skirt, with long hair and makeup, the "guy or girl" meter naturally moves towards the girl side. If you're as ugly as I am, the eyes are averted since no one seems to want to check out an ugly woman. That's my view on blending. :)

As for personality blending, I would say that I really only have one personality - a combination of the two genders. I can be driven, but am normally low-key. I am empathetic, sympathetic, patient, kind and nurturing. At church, I am "the playground mom" it seems. When a group of us go to the playground on weekends, the kids seem to come to me when they get owies, much to the consternation of their mothers. To the mothers, I'm just one of the girls. We've discussed it. They know I'm straight, but they naturally just let me into their circle. They couldn't explain it, they said it should feel weird to them, but I just "fit." They've stopped apologizing about talking about sex and "girl stuff" around me and teasingly include me in those subjects.

How cool is it for anyone to be able to say that?!I honestly hope it's not as rare as it sounds. I'm the type of person that is generally happy. Having the experiences I've had, doing the things I've done - life does indeed rock!

With time, I'm sure that your BF will get there. I wet through a bit of the "shame on me" period - especially living in such a conservative state as Utah - but it didn't last once I came to grips with the fact that I was and am doing nothing wrong.

Kathi

sometimes_miss

09-09-2009, 03:38 PM

As some others have mentioned, I use crossdressing as a 'defense mechanism'. Stress makes me want to crossdress, so I just give in to the desire. Being dressed allows me to focus on the clothes, and the sensations of being feminine. Arguing in that state would be counterproductive, and I too would want to keep my crossdressed state as a safe place for me to retreat to when I need a break from the rest of my life. So I would suggest not attaching too much to your SO's desire to change back to male garb when in an argument. Live and let live.

charlie

09-09-2009, 06:18 PM

Argggghhhh...what does that mean????? Geeeeeeeezzzz....I have given him 1000% freedom...it's all about him getting in touch with her right now in our lives. Sorry to get off topic but...what's the answer???? Slow him down to give him a chance to process his feelings or just take the hinges off the closet door like I have and let him go wild. Really it's not my place to determine that, it's his life, his issue to process but I'm trying....it's impossible to figure out. At least I can borrow his lipstick...looking for upsides.

Hello Kelly!
Perhaps 100% freedom to dress and be feminine is just too much for both of you. How about some rules for both of you that you and he can live with and be comfortable with. When you got together with him and knew nothing of his CD you never knew that you would be where you are now. A bit of the old life may be good for both of you. Less experimenting and trying things out all of the time. A pause to live where you are comfortable and have been so to speak.

Satrana

09-10-2009, 08:53 AM

So, if I understand correctly...essentially, the repressed female personality has to go through a muturing process on it's own since it's been repressed for so long? That sure sounds like a personality split. Does the grown up male side know that he's dealing with an immature female side? Or is it just like a massive adrenaline rush, which is what I am seeing in him and her right now. It looks a bit bipolar. Sounds like a confusing state to be in.

Well it is not a classical personality split i.e. it is not a mental disorder. Unless he is a transsexual then he knows he is not a woman but a man who just wants to enjoy being girly. Yes the feminine side needs to mature - it has not even had an opportunity to enjoy a childhood since it has been repressed ever since male gender roles were forced onto him after the age of 5 or so.

You must understand that for males, femininity is seen as a poison to our masculinity. It is something to avoided at all costs and to be squeezed out of our system. However at some point, usually during our childhood, CDs do something that other boys don't do, we become self-aware that their femininity is actually something to be enjoyed and cherished, that it reflects part of our real personalities. But we can never expose and develop our femininity for fear of ostracization and the feelings of perversion and deviance that society teaches us feminine men represent.

For sure CDs understand how immature our feminine nature is. We are all keen observers of women trying to learn the tricks of the trade, trying to fit in, trying to undo the macho behavioral traits that we have been trained to express. This is one reason why CDing is such an adrenaline rush. It is like being born again, having to learn everything from scratch like you are a kid. The colors appear brighter, the smells more sharp, sensations more dramatic. Remember how magical Christmas was when you were young? That's the type of overwhelming feelings CDs get when they finally emerge from the closet.

Is self acceptance all it takes to get there? And if you're happy simply living a part of you out through an alter ego...which is something I'm concerned about..how do I get him past that place into the place where he wants to be integrated? Am I making this more complicated than it is??? Self acceptance is a difficult task. CDs almost always have lead isolated lives thinking there were the only perverts in the world who thought this way. The psychological barrier to self acceptance is a steep hill to climb but it is made significantly easier if there is support from others.

How to get him integrated? Well allowing plenty of time you already know about. Allowing him to CD as much as he wants is an important factor. He has to explore and mature and fulfill his dreams. Once he has climbed his mountains and enjoyed the experiences, the excitement will die down. Then you will have more success reaching out to him and being able to talk sensibly. At the moment he is too much in the clouds to think sensibly. And also too scared that your support will disappear one day. Just as you are scared what the future will hold, so is he. He is wondering if your support is really just a pretense to please him. He is wondering maybe one day you will call him a pervert or faggot etc and tell him you can no longer handle his dressing.

Trying to get him to talk about all of this will be a trial. No matter how much he wants to take his feminine side to heart, decades of male behavior of closing up and keeping his emotions and feelings locked inside will make it very hard for him to admit his vulnerability to you. You just need to keep chipping away.

How to stop him developing the alter ego? Well the best way is to stop him from believing his dressing requires full emulation - i.e. wig, breastforms, higher voice pitch, butt waggle, female name etc. He needs to come to grips with seeing himself in the mirror wearing a dress rather than an alter ego playing out a fantasy. Over time teach him to use less make-up, not more and use natural day colors rather than the dramatic reds and blacks and use simple jewelry. Teach him to incorporate jeans and leggings rather than always wearing skirts and dresses. If he is inside the house there is no need for wigs or breastforms since there is no need to "pass"for security and comfort. Basically try to normalize his appearance and behavior i.e.help him mature his feminine side from a girl into a woman.

But I am not completely sure about how to be supportive and give him space at the same time. There are no rights or wrongs. Being supportive is about love, empathy, understanding, being non-judgmental. Guide him with helpful advice, praise him when he puts together a nice outfit. Teach him to open up about his emotions. Earlier you mentioned how he went back into male clothes when you were arguing. That was because he does not relate his feminine side to negativity, he wants it to be all positive and girly. So while he is dressed, tell him to learn "girl talk", and talk emotions - even get him to cry. As men we fight tears, while en femme we have the license to let go.

Good luck!