Roles in Society

[Miranda09]

OK...I've been thinking about this for a long time now and would like some opinions and input from your own observations. First off, let me say right off the bat, this is NOT a thread searching for the deeper meaning of why we dress. That subject has been covered to great extent and we all have our own reasons for doing so.

Now, with that said, let me explain. For years I've often pondered how society has shaped men and women to play certain roles in society. What I mean is that men are taught to be domineering, aggressive, controlling, and "the bread winner" in a relationship (wait...I know this is NOT always the case, but let's just take generalities). Women, on the other hand are taught to be passive, caring, sensitive, emotional, and the person who stays home with the kids and takes care of the house (again, JUST a generality). Here's an example from my own experience, when I was dating my ex-wife. I was only about 24 when we met and she had some aspirations of becoming an airline stewardess with United. I took exception to this and told her.."Oh no you don't. You're not going away for a couple of months somewhere, and possibly meet some one else...no, no." Now looking back on this admittedly minor incident, I came to realize that...who the hell did I think I was telling her what she could aspire to or not. If she told me what I could do or not, I would not have accepted that...why should she. Years later, after we had divorced, I mentioned this to her and how bad I felt and how presumptuous I was in saying that. She assured me that if she had really wanted that career path, she would have taken it no matter what I said. Be that as it may, it got me to thinking as to how we are conditioned to play certain roles in a relationship...at least for my generation. I think the newer generations are pulling away from such conditioning, but it takes time. Also, my CDing has enabled me to observe in a more neutral position the implications of this issue and how we interact with an SO.

My questions is how many of you have experienced something similar, or have made similar observations regarding the male/female relationship and the roles that are played out, and if your CDing activities have made you more observant of this issue (not the correct word, but it will do for now). I would also like to hear from our GG sisters on this as well.

[Ras]

I think my CDing has made me more aware of the gender issues between men and women, and more understanding. I typically like to be in charge more whether dressed or not.

[Sarah Doepner]

Miranda,
I found that before I came out to my wife I really fell into the stereotypical roles you describe. I was the breadwinner and had to be strong and take care of everything and by gum I would do it regardless. If there was something that was related to the care and feeding of children or remembering birthdays or other things that made people feel good, I let her do that. I missed out a lot and need to work now on improving my people skills and letting myself get involved in the emotions and feelings of the family and friends. I still have to fix stuff and get things off the tall shelves, but at least I have a wider range of behavior to take advantage of now.

[Alice B]

Looking back and being honest with myself shows that I was without question programed to be the macho, etc. male. It shows in what I did for fun and choices in career paths. But, I also realize that I was to some extent fighting this. I never told any female or ex wife what she could or could not do and I was always (and still am) very tuned to feelings of the females in my life. I think all of this shaped me and I finally realized late in life that I was a cross dresser although I had never acted upon it.

I am now married (17 years) to an extremely strong, independent, free thinking yet conservative wife. Coming out to her and to myself has been a long road due to the programing we both had received. And we are still traveling that road and learning to change our attitudes as we travel it.

[Christina Horton]

I to have had that dam male program installed in my core data base. I have got rid of most of the files but some are hard to erase. Or to find for that matter. Growing up and knowing at the age of 4 that I wanted to wear what the girls were. My Mom was a stay at home but was far from the (cookie cutter) mom you see in like leave it to Beaver. But she did cook clean and raise me and my sister. Dad is a mans man and is very manly but he is ok with my dressing ,he just does not want to see me dressed. I learned nit to emote when out in drab and this had been a hard program to undo. I would say I (cuz I AM CD) have a better and easier time to understand the women , that is not to say that men whom don't dress can't and all but We have a very good head start on them. With the women I have known in my life I may not have understood them but I did at least tried to. I never treated them like men of the pasted did. Sometime I would cuz it was easier ,Like and Thanksgiving and Christmas where I don't want to help. LOL. I am lazy when it comes to that. I know I should but , I have tried to do better the past year or so. Now that moms ok with my dressing maybe she will let me dress at Christmas time and that would be the tread of for helping her with dinner.LOL. I know I know not nice to Blackmail my mom. But its funny.:heehee: .

There are thing that women will naturally want to do and things men will want to do and sometime they will cross and the more open we are the more thing will cross, but will they all cross for all people NO I think not. I have meet some men who would not ever allow there women to work and I have meet women who would never want to work. The amount of people is a ever more growing thing and with that the more we have of others to see the more open we will get...I hope. Well thetas just my :2c:

[Joy Carter]

Sometimes saying "no your not" would have been right. My wife cheated on me at her job. I knew it wasn't a god idea, for a young attractive woman with kids and husband, to be a cocktail waitress. It took years for me to get over it. But there is and will always be a lack of trust. Call me a sexist if you must.

[NatashaCD]

Sometimes saying "no your not" would have been right. My wife cheated on me at her job. I knew it wasn't a god idea, for a young attractive woman with kids and husband, to be a cocktail waitress. It took years for me to get over it. But there is and will always be a lack of trust. Call me a sexist if you must.

Im with you Joy and I know how you feel altho we werent married with kids (THANK GOD) I can understand how much harder it would have been for you :hugs:

[Shari]

My marital relationship has been with me sort of "ruling the roost" the entire marriage. I do not nor did I ever take advantage of that fact in making a decision, especially one that would affect both of us. I always felt that it took two of us to get married, then it should take two of us to make any important decisions.
Raising two daughters also helped to temper my Eisenhower upbringing.
I do not ever recall making a call based on gender and I'm proud of that fact.

Seems to me that in your relationship, you planted mistrust immediately with your SO regarding the stewardess job.
i do not mean to be too harsh or offend in any way. Just an observation. Take it for what it's worth, and maybe think about it a little more before diving into another "I do" scenario.

[Miranda09]

Hi Shari...I appreciate what you're saying regarding my particular relationship, however, that's really not the point of this thread. What I'm more interested in is how our culture has implanted in us a particular way of interacting between the sexes, and a particular way expressing ourselves, whether male or female. I think the first part of your response has expressed that very nicely.

[Satrana]

I came to realize that...who the hell did I think I was telling her what she could aspire to or not.

You know many women would have interpreted that situation differently. They would have acknowledged that you loved and desired her so much that you could not bear to be without her for long stretches of time and you could not stand thinking she might be flirting with other men. Often women want to see a bit of jealousy and possessiveness in their man - so long as it does not become overbearing of course.

Therein lies the issue in your question - men and women are brought up differently to occupy different roles and to approach issues from a different angle. This is why men and women are continuously mystified by each other but few ever question what gender is about. Everyone seems to take it for granted and assumes it is all "natural"

The only ones who know better are TGs and their partners/families in the know and feminists even though their viewpoint is lopsided. Everyone else is blissfully ignorant that they have been brainwashed into acting out robotic roles.

Sometimes I think I am living in a real version of The Matrix where everyone is plugged into an artificial reality and I am one of the few who has been unplugged and can see the real world. When I was younger I would get angry about this and demand (or rather dream of) change. Now I concentrate on my own life and make sure I get the balance right. Fortunately my wife listens to me and she understands my ideas. Another soul unplugged from the Matrix. Our private lives together does not revolve around gender roles - we each routinely crossover our gender roles. It is happily liberating to enjoy life without having to follow rules at least until you have to go out in public again, then the pretense begins.

[Miranda09]

Sometimes I think I am living in a real version of The Matrix where everyone is plugged into an artificial reality and I am one of the few who has been unplugged and can see the real world. When I was younger I would get angry about this and demand (or rather dream of) change. Now I concentrate on my own life and make sure I get the balance right. Fortunately my wife listens to me and she understands my ideas. Another soul unplugged from the Matrix. Our private lives together does not revolve around gender roles - we each routinely crossover our gender roles. It is happily liberating to enjoy life without having to follow rules at least until you have to go out in public again, then the pretense begins.

That's an interesting analogy Satrana. It really is like being unplugged from the Matrix and taking a fresh look at life around you from a different perspective. I think that's what I find most interesting about my CDing activities and passion. :)

[Kathi Lake]

I wonder how I would feel if I wasn't this way - more empathetic, more patient, more willing to be on the bottom, so to speak. You see, my wife is the type-A hard-charger. She is the one with a PhD, a world-class researcher and presenter, has always been the major bread-winner. If we need to move to a different university for her job, we move. Sometimes, she takes it hard that as a man, I am in the role of supporter, nurturer, . . . the woman. It makes her sad that she's not the woman sometimes. She feels bad that she has to miss soccer games. She feels bad that I have taught my daughter about clothes and hair - and soon makeup as she is out the door by 6:00 most mornings. She feels guilty that I dress as a woman. She thinks sometimes that she has made me that way - that she has forced me into the role, clothing and ambitions of a female. I try to reassure her that even if our roles were reversed, my love of things feminine wouldn't be. As a woman, it must be hard to take.

I imagine that if I were a "normal" red-blooded American male, with testosterone oozing out of my pores, that I might bridle in this arrangement. Thankfully, I'm me. As we recently celebrated our 20th anniversary, I think the arrangement is working out rather well.

Kathi

[Miranda09]

I wonder how I would feel if I wasn't this way - more empathetic, more patient, more willing to be on the bottom, so to speak. You see, my wife is the type-A hard-charger. She is the one with a PhD, a world-class researcher and presenter, has always been the major bread-winner. If we need to move to a different university for her job, we move. Sometimes, she takes it hard that as a man, I am in the role of supporter, nurturer, . . . the woman. It makes her sad that she's not the woman sometimes. She feels bad that she has to miss soccer games. She feels bad that I have taught my daughter about clothes and hair - and soon makeup as she is out the door by 6:00 most mornings. She feels guilty that I dress as a woman. She thinks sometimes that she has made me that way - that she has forced me into the role, clothing and ambitions of a female. I try to reassure her that even if our roles were reversed, my love of things feminine wouldn't be. As a woman, it must be hard to take.

I imagine that if I were a "normal" red-blooded American male, with testosterone oozing out of my pores, that I might bridle in this arrangement. Thankfully, I'm me. As we recently celebrated our 20th anniversary, I think the arrangement is working out rather well.

Kathi

Now that's an interesting perspective Kathi, one I hadn't thought of. This actually adds another dimension to your viewpoint of perceived male/female roles in our society. It also points out how much things have changed in career paths for couples. Thanks for sharing....oh, and happy anniversary. Here's to 20 more!! :) :drink:

[Angel.Marie76]

In everything I've seen, it's always been obvious, throughout life, that males and females are nurtured to fit in with their physically defined sexual identity. Schools, 'guiding' children into whatever paths the teachers feel best suits them, honestly, pisses me off. I know I've little I can do about it on the surface, sure I can stomp my feet and give the BOE's a piece of my mind, but to what avail? I know my son has already been 'nurtured' by his stepfather, when he sees him, to nearly flat out DEMAND that he align himself with the pro-manly-police-force-military-wannabe that he represents, and in doing so will certainly layer in programming. His maternal grandparents also have the same mentality.

Even watching MY parents shows that there is something to be said for tha balance of roles, power and money. My father, the traditional working breadwinner, and my mother, even though employed at times, was generally the housemaker. Never the two roles shall cross. Growing up, I saw and felt my father's commanding presence to try and guide me into the throws of manhood.. I'm sure to his frustration now with me coming out as TG he may feel that he's failed in nurturing his offspring in the 'manly ways'.. Now, my mother is a stereotypical model in respect to the softer and more flexible side of things, and has always supported me, always teaching the golden basics of how men and women should be treated. Even though she's been living the married life for 40+ years, it has not subdued her pride for women who have stepped up and out of the conformist shells and made a name for themselves. Only guessing how my mother really would have raised me given given a different birth gender, I feel she would have pushed me to achieve great goals in my life, and not to settle for marital housewife simplicity. I believe, though, that was also nurtured in her, and her sisters (all sisters BTW, 3 total). Her sisters, and subsequently, their daughters have gone on to extensive career choices, including one I know of who has her PHd in medial research out in Cali.

The end of this babble really is the old nature vs. nurture I suppose. As now out as a TG MtF, I was nurtured to respect femininity and hold it very highly, and have never thought twice about it, and that men were not any different. My past relations with others have always been supportive, never once asking another to 'bow' to me as some sort of slave to the marital grindstone. I hope to raise my son with similar respects towards all, regardless of the amount of external manipulation that may occur. This may prove easier said than done on may respects, esp as I step farther out into the public eye (and believe me, it's like a ticking bomb right now) he will be forced to take on the public at large's opinions on ME, and all I can do is keep showing him that, no matter what, we're all equal.

Hope I didn't stray too far from your requested point. :-)

[Miranda09]

An interesting viewpoint Angel...thank you. :)