FtM ever hang out with MtF???

[Marissa Mae]

I am not sure how to word a search correctly to see if this sort of thing has been asked before, so I will instead just post it up :) And, for the record, this isn't a "meet up? wink wink" type of thread either!

As a MtF CDer, I find that it's tough to make friends: straight guys would pummel me, straight girls laugh, gay guys despise us, and lesbians are cool but I don't know, don't seem approving. What about the transmen out there? I just think it would seem natural that we'd have some common ground and a mutual understanding, and not have to worry about all that other stuff. It'd be exciting to be able to meet up with FtM CDers. I have never seen any in my area before, so they must be a rarity, or they have other places they hang out at. So do any of the guys in here have any MtF friends? What are your thoughts?

There is something else I have been wondering... I dress because I love the clothing and the feelings it envokes, but I do not want to become a female, and actually like being a guy. Is it the same for the FtM CDers? Do you just do it for the clothing, or is it more so because you feel like a male trapped in the wrong body?

I apologize ahead of time for anyone I may offend, but I am sincere in my questions :love: Hopefully my questions aren't overly naive!

Marissa

[Ze]

There's never anything wrong with asking questions like this. :)

Unfortunately, m'dear, I have yet to come across an FtM CDer. It seems just about all of us are transgendered or transexuals. We still have debates as to why this is. But yes, because of this, we have more of the "wrong body" mentality rather than simply enjoying the clothes.

It's a shame the LGB community can be so non-accepting. I have yet to put myself out there, so to speak, but I've heard stories of all sorts of CD and TG people getting told off by the gay community. It's very sad.

I personally have yet to make any "real" TG or CD friends (that I know of) outside of the internet. At the same time, I don't think I'm looking as hard as I could be. :D

As far as acceptance goes, it seems to come down to the individual rather than the label they have. There are accepting cispeople, accepting gays and lesbians, etc. But at the same time, some of each group seem to not like us. I can't figure out why for the life of me, but it comes down to the person's mentality. If they're comfortable with themselves, then they'll be comfortable with you.

I guess that's my weird way of saying "don't give up!" :hugs: I agree that it's very difficult to make friends when you're outside of the social norms, though. I have so much trouble with that myself.

But to sum up your whole post, I daresay most transguys wouldn't have a problem being your friend as long as you didn't have a problem with them. Just as any friendship would be, I guess. :)

Hope that helped!

[deja true]

So where do you guys tend to hang out if you're at all social?

I've met FtM guys at plays and presentations of gender-variant interest. And there have always been large contingents of guys at the two biggest conferences, Be-All and SCC. (There's even a trans-man reception party at SCC that is open to all!)

And Ze, I agree. All the guys I have met have been very serious about their gender issues. Never met a one who was doing it "just for fun" like a lot of us. More into the psychology, the politics, the very nature of what they are going through. Maybe it's a function of knowing that there's no turning back, huh?

Admire them immensely!

:)

[Kieron Andrew]

So do any of the guys in here have any MtF friends? What are your thoughts?
75% of my friend base in real life is MtF, when i first came out as trans i didn't know any FtMs, but I had met and befriended plenty of MtFs who have been my biggest supportive network, now i have lots of FtM friends too

[Ze]

So where do you guys tend to hang out if you're at all social?

Good question. I personally don't know! :doh: I'd love to be more social, but I don't know the first place to look in order to do so. I think my general area is lacking in TG-friendly hangouts, so it makes it harder to find one another.

That's how I ended up at this site. And now you all have to deal with me. :devil:

[ashcrimson]

So far I have only met 3 lesbians in person in my entire life, they have been nice and accomodating to me. As for gay people, I have seen them but never interacted with them before, then again, one of them here in the building occasionally gives me a bad stare and I dont know why. I did have some gay friends when I was younger and they were nice to me, but I wasnt wearing a dress back then.

I have never met a crossdresser in person before though, I wonder what theyd be like.

[Angelofsomekind]

I have never come across any FtoM's when I've gone out (that I know of anyway). Perhaps I don't go to the right places, but I think it would be pretty cool to hang out with and be friends with some. For the last two years my wife and I have attended the Be All convention in the Chicago area, there have been 2 that I have noticed, but never had a chance to really talk to them.

[Elsa Larson]

I'm sure forum members who go to Southern Comfort know the story of FTM: Robert and his friendship with MTF: Lola.

http://www.logoonline.com/shows/dyn/southern_comfort/videos.jhtml

The video is broken into 10 segments of about 10 minutes each.

Be sure to have a box of tissues handy when you watch.

[Ze]

Wow, Elsa, thanks for that awesome find! :hugs: I can't wait to watch it when I'm able to.

[Niya W]

In five years of being out I've only ever met two FTM Cd's I suspect that I've might of met more ,but I just read them as being butch.

[Heatherx75]

I have a couple of friends who are an MtF-FtM couple right now. They haven't been together that long, but they went to San Francisco together recently. I've hung out with a couple of transguys, they all seemed pretty cool. I don't know too many transguys particularly well, but as far as FtM crossdressing I suspect that it's just different for guys. In general, women LOVE clothes. Guys... not so much. (Yes I know that that's a generalization, I want you all to know that I don't mean to step on toes...)

[Noxvictum]

I think it's kinda hard to have a common hangout when we're all still quite different from each other, as in our own personal interests. Yeah, we all have a few things in common, but we still lead different lifes with different goals and ambitions. We're not a team in the sense of say... A football team (i hope this example works for ya'll, it's quite possible my logic is skewed). In that we may "train" together, we're not trying to make a living just trying to look good, where a football player lives for football (things like scholarships count as far as I'm concerned). So since that team is for the most part after the same goals, they get along quite well. You guys are all very nice and encouraging, I'll probably never get to meet most of you face to face (sad but true. I also still really value some of my alone time). We're a small percentage, and we're spread out. Just between us, I'll take this over a football team any day. I look funny in pads anyway.

[Andy66]

I suspect that I've might of met more ,but I just read them as bein butch.
Yeah, what Niya said. Personally I suspect that's part of the reason we don't see too many Transmen. Also FtM crossdressers - I've worn male outfits before and no-one batted an eye or would consider me a FtM crossdresser, even though I was technically crossdressing. Why? Because it's so common and accepted that it's not even thought of in those terms.

Too bad you've had bad experiences with so many different types of people, Marissa Mae. People from all walks of life can be insecure or self-centered. Maybe you would have better luck if you joined some sort of club or organization.

[battybattybats]

Unfortunately, m'dear, I have yet to come across an FtM CDer.

They do exist. just usually don't identify as such. Like one friend of mine identifies as a butch lesbian and a geek. But when she wears a suit and a tie its definately as crossdressing.

And more importantly i'm dating one!

[The Gas Man Cometh]

They do exist. just usually don't identify as such. Like one friend of mine identifies as a butch lesbian and a geek. But when she wears a suit and a tie its definately as crossdressing.

And more importantly i'm dating one!

Exactly. And I am that very FtM CDer you're dating. I will put my hand up and say my species does exist.


I've worn male outfits before and no-one batted an eye or would consider me a FtM crossdresser, even though I was technically crossdressing. Why? Because it's so common and accepted that it's not even thought of in those terms.


Exactly my point I was just saying to Batty a moment ago. The reason most FtM's aren't recognised is because no one challenges a tomboy on their wearing or buying male clothing. MtF's are in the spotlight due to a sexist ideal that it's not ok for men to wear dresses, but it's fine for women to wear pants. (Sure some are challenged, especially outside the western world, I'm simply stating averages.)


but I just read them as being butch.

Personally that would hurt me. When I dress, I'd want to be seen as male or even acting as male if not passing. But I'd hate to be seen as simply a butch female. I suppose it's the same as calling a MtF crossdresser "A man in a dress." Fine, that MAY BE the actuality of it for some... but emotionally it's a different reality.

[Ze]

They do exist. just usually don't identify as such. Like one friend of mine identifies as a butch lesbian and a geek. But when she wears a suit and a tie its definately as crossdressing.

And more importantly i'm dating one!

For the record, I never said they didn't exist. I just said I've never seen one that I knew of myself.

And being the post-positivist realist that I am, I don't count people being a label if it's being thrown on them by somebody else. They have to accept the label for themselves for it to count. Otherwise, the world itself would be nothing but objectified in its labels, and coming from my own internal identity, that's straight-up hypocrisy if I were to play into this.


Exactly my point I was just saying to Batty a moment ago. The reason most FtM's aren't recognised is because no one challenges a tomboy on their wearing or buying male clothing. MtF's are in the spotlight due to a sexist ideal that it's not ok for men to wear dresses, but it's fine for women to wear pants. (Sure some are challenged, especially outside the western world, I'm simply stating averages.)

Please let us not bring up this argument for the millionth time. :wall: How many times does it have to be debunked? Yes, there's an imbalance of sexism; it's the backlash of feminism. But that doesn't mean the one side is easy as pie while the other gets all the knocks.

Plenty of people challenge a GF wearing men's clothes. I'm currently in that predicament at (liberal) college. Sure, some people are "leaving me alone," but I still get the weird looks and stares from them, the laughing and pointing at me quietly while class is in session. And I still am getting a handful of people in each day more aggressively trying to make my life miserable and treat me like crap. (And yes, it's because of my appearance; I made sure to rule out all other possibilities before making this conclusion.)

So please, let's drop this. Experiences don't lie. And even if I'm the one and only outlier in the world, it still keeps statements such as "no one challenges" out of the picture.

[Andy66]

Yes, there's an imbalance of sexism; it's the backlash of feminism. But that doesn't mean the one side is easy as pie while the other gets all the knocks.

Plenty of people challenge a GF wearing men's clothes. I'm currently in that predicament at (liberal) college. Sure, some people are "leaving me alone," but I still get the weird looks and stares from them, the laughing and pointing at me quietly while class is in session. And I still am getting a handful of people in each day more aggressively trying to make my life miserable and treat me like crap. (And yes, it's because of my appearance;

My buddy Ze makes a good point. There is a certain level of crossdressing that's socially acceptable for a genetic female; but if you cross that line, you get treated like a freak.

When I was in college I dressed boyish, and nobody said anything; but you should have seen the stares and smart remarks I would get while dressed boyish and riding my scooter. (Didn't even have to be a real motorcycle to cross that line.)

Yeah, crossdressing women do exist but only the most crossiest-dressiest, or Transmen get noticed. Yes, GMs get a bad deal, but they're not the only ones.

From the outside of this discussion looking in, it seems to me you're arguing over unintended semantics issues, and you are actually ALL (Batty, Gas Man and Ze) correct. Now can't we all just get along?

And Ze -- great googly-moogly, boy! What happened to your hat? :lol:

[Ze]

And Ze -- great googly-moogly, boy! What happened to your hat? :lol:

Don't ask. :doh:

[Niya W]

Personally that would hurt me. When I dress, I'd want to be seen as male or even acting as male if not passing. But I'd hate to be seen as simply a butch female. I suppose it's the same as calling a MtF crossdresser "A man in a dress." Fine, that MAY BE the actuality of it for some... but emotionally it's a different reality.
You also have to understand the world I come from to. I've been around ultra macho butch lesbians that act more masculine then most guys I know . Shaved head , wearing very much guy clothes. Call them Sir and its fist fight. I would have to come up talk to you.

[Ze]

You also have to understand the world I come from to. I've been around ultra macho butch lesbians that act more masculine then most guys I know . Shaved head , wearing very much guy clothes. Call them Sir and its fist fight. I would have to come up talk to you.

Exactly. Objectivity is objectivity, but I'm pretty sure nobody will accept a label that they don't associate with. It works any way you see it.

[The Gas Man Cometh]

Please let us not bring up this argument for the millionth time. :wall: How many times does it have to be debunked? Yes, there's an imbalance of sexism; it's the backlash of feminism. But that doesn't mean the one side is easy as pie while the other gets all the knocks.

Plenty of people challenge a GF wearing men's clothes. I'm currently in that predicament at (liberal) college. Sure, some people are "leaving me alone," but I still get the weird looks and stares from them, the laughing and pointing at me quietly while class is in session. And I still am getting a handful of people in each day more aggressively trying to make my life miserable and treat me like crap. (And yes, it's because of my appearance; I made sure to rule out all other possibilities before making this conclusion.)

So please, let's drop this. Experiences don't lie. And even if I'm the one and only outlier in the world, it still keeps statements such as "no one challenges" out of the picture.

Calm down and put the shield away. I did say I was stating averages. Because that is the average experience, m'dear.


My buddy Ze makes a good point. There is a certain level of crossdressing that's socially acceptable for a genetic female; but if you cross that line, you get treated like a freak.

Hence why I said CDers, not transsexuals.


You also have to understand the world I come from to. I've been around ultra macho butch lesbians that act more masculine then most guys I know . Shaved head , wearing very much guy clothes. Call them Sir and its fist fight. I would have to come up talk to you.

Well, by taking this information into account I can see why you would've learned to keep a sort of low profile by simply assuming they were butch women, for your own safety. I can understand that.

[JenniferZ2009]

One of my old coworkers is a lesbian and she wanted to be a guy. She is the first person I told about myslef way back when and she was very receptive about it even wanting to hang out.

That however was in my early period and stopped dressing for a while due to some issues that came up so never really went that far with her. Shew and her SO would be really good friends.

I do need to call her up again though and get in touch.

[Ze]

Calm down and put the shield away. I did say I was stating averages. Because that is the average experience, m'dear.

Apparently passive aggressiveness really does travel well over the internet...

What shield? What emotionality? I was replying to your statement and happened to be against what you said. That automatically makes me irrational and confused? (Why yes, I really am capable of reading between the lines!) Believe me, stances such as yours are so cookie-cutter that I can't even react to them emotionally if I wanted to. I can only ask why we need to go into X again, make my statement, and then move on.

Back-and-forth is the makings of understanding. But you had to go ahead and sour it by your newest reply. If you were looking to actually enlighten anybody here, you're doing a poor job. I have gained absolutely no new insight from your first post to now.

Averages of what exactly? The cultural patterns of the "common" FtM CDer? What is the common CDer? Where did you get your data? How many FtM CDers do you know besides yourself? Honestly, this isn't a challenge. Please tell me if you've found statistical data science was able to finally conduct on a large enough group. I really could use it for my research and it would help me understand what you're trying to say. It's difficult to make real sense of the repetitive phrase "these are averages" and nothing more.

And quit the condescending terminology. I use it often as a term of endearment; don't throw it back on me as a mock. If you don't like a personality trait of mine, then either come out and say it or leave it alone. Don't take the cowardly middle ground and then giggle in the corner.


Hence why I said CDers, not transsexuals.

You lump CDers into one big group? You're not even going to decipher based on a spectrum? I daresay people can't easily tell the visual (and sometimes behavioral) difference(s) between a TS and a CDer, just like they can't between a CDer and a butch woman. I just feel that there's a whole mess of reasoning missing here. It goes beyond what you're assuming to be a simple misreading on our part.

And before you can say it, I'm still not emotional over your stance; just very disappointed in the way you felt necessary to go about it.

[battybattybats]

Averages of what exactly? The cultural patterns of the "common" FtM CDer? What is the common CDer? Where did you get your data? How many FtM CDers do you know besides yourself?

Actually he knows a few.
And are not all sources of data currently available on this just peoples subjective personal experiences?

So maybe we all shouldn't be too dismissive of other peoples experiences offhand. If one persons don't match anothers that could be valuable data on geographic, cultural or generational differences... whats true in one persons experience may not be in everyones.

Why not ask Thomas (The Gas Man Cometh) his experiences of being judged for CDing in mens clothes or lack thereof? Why not ask him about the experiences of the other FtM CDs he knows.

Why not evaluate the data first? If all we have is subjective experience then we all could err terribly by assuming our own experience is the rule and not the exception let alone miss valuable answers about why exceptions could be the case.

[Ze]

Actually he knows a few.
And are not all sources of data currently available on this just peoples subjective personal experiences?

Yes they are. Nobody's disputing that. What I'm curious about is his ability to say X is an average. What's the source? Whether it's from an individual experience or an actual data collection, it should be noted. Is he talking from his own experiences, a concentrated sample of his friends, a statistical analysis involving hundreds? Nobody knows; and averages are subject to change based on the sampling.


So maybe we all shouldn't be too dismissive of other peoples experiences offhand. If one persons don't match anothers that could be valuable data on geographic, cultural or generational differences... whats true in one persons experience may not be in everyones.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Is nobody listening?


Why not ask Thomas (The Gas Man Cometh) his experiences of being judged for CDing in mens clothes or lack thereof? Why not ask him about the experiences of the other FtM CDs he knows.

This is what I've been trying to get to, hence my earlier questions. Like I had said, that wasn't a challenge; I truly want to know. So I asked. Again, was my post not read?


Why not evaluate the data first?

This would probably be a lot easier to do if I had been presented the data. It's pretty hard to evaluate empty space.


If all we have is subjective experience then we all could err terribly by assuming our own experience is the rule and not the exception let alone miss valuable answers about why exceptions could be the case.

I'm not the one that needs to be lectured on PPR here. And I don't appreciate being talked to like I do. This is exactly the stuff I've been trying to express the whole time.

[Stephenie]

In high school I had a girl friend who left me for a girl, I was told later transitioned to male. Would love to get back in touch sometime but have no way to find him now.

Unless some one here is from Gig Harbor.

[Erica K.]

[QUOTE=Anne66;1869186]My buddy Ze makes a good point. There is a certain level of crossdressing that's socially acceptable for a genetic female; but if you cross that line, you get treated like a freak.

QUOTE]

I was out buying groceries dressed & the woman cashier had on slacks, button shirt & a tie. Totally crossdressed, but a girly face with her hair done. She gave strange looks, I don't get it some times...meh:straightface:

I would really like to meet some FtMs, though. I went out this past saturday with a gg friend. I was dressed kind of classy (4-1/2" patent leather heels & a shaw = classy to me). She was dressed like a steam punk guy, but not really trying to go the whole 9.