Still sorta feminine or fully masculine?

[Chanicle]

This has been a question that's been on my mind ever since I realized that I was transgender, and kept delaying my transition:

Do you have to be FULLY mentally the opposite mental gender to be trans? :confused3:

I've always had overly masculine traits, and my parents had noticed that at an early age. Even today I feel more man then woman but still I have feminine traits that keep me feeling like I'm sort of in the middle more then exactly on one side or the other. Does anyone else feel this way?

I think I was eventually able to convince myself to go through with my transition because I sincerely would RATHER be a girly guy then a tomboy...

Anyway, I'm curious to hear you thoughts on this, and if you have feminine traits you still acknowledge.

[DanielMacBride]

Hi Chanicle, first of all, welcome! :) I have addressed this exact issue in other posts on the forum a few times, because it is something that often comes up with us boys. We often have more "feminine" traits because we are raised and socialised female in line with our birth sex (not gender). I guess it depends on how comfortable you are with having those characteristics (and it sounds like you are comfortable with it, but just kind of trying to reconcile it with your gender, which is perfectly normal given how heavily society pushes the gender binary). Some guys work hard to eradicate anything that could be seen as more feminine, others are okay with it (and let's face it, not every man is uber macho, right? :) )

Question, how long have you been transitioning? I ask because the further you get into your transition, the more you will find that your gender identity will solidify - what you are describing sounds very much to me like what I went through when I first came out as being "not a girl". I knew I wasn't female, but didn't know exactly where I sat - but the more I explored that, the more I slid towards fully male, and I realised that a lot of the more "feminine" aspects of my personality that people would call me out on are not actually "feminine" characteristics, but "human" ones and this helped me enormously in establishing and solidifying my identity :)

I just wrote a long post in response to one of NiCo's threads about labels which kind of addresses the gender binary expectations - I think when we come out and transition, there is almost a period of...grieving I guess, or of wondering how the hell we fit in and how do we make all these parts of us work with our identity. I can assure you though that these things DO work themselves out as you explore your identity more and work out where you are comfortable, and if you ID as male, having the more "feminine" aspects doesn't make you any less so :)

But it is also possible to be bigendered - only you can really know where you sit though :)

ETA: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1864480#post1864480

[SirTrey]

I agree with what Dan said as far as social conditioning is concerned....When I was a child, I always felt masculine, but was raised to be female....My mother would spend inordinate amounts of time trying to force things in Me, like sitting with My legs together, speaking more softly....she hated the way I walked.... She put Me in dance classes to make Me more graceful.... I was never good at the girl thing, but I did learn to acclimate to become more socially acceptable....Those are just a few examples, but there were many.....I had to recondition Myself to being able to just relax and be Me....Early into transition, all of that is still there....and some will lose most (or all) of that, some will not....And, just as some bio men have some more sterotypically female personality traits, some transguys do, too....When you transition, changes come that you don't even realize will come....Once I started transitioning, the floodgates were opened and masculinity came flying out of Me like a freight train....even more than I had ever realized was there...so, as time goes on, you will find your way and the inner you will come out more and more....Then you will see who you really are. And welcome to the site....We're glad to have you. :)

[Chanicle]

Hi Chanicle, first of all, welcome! :) I have addressed this exact issue in other posts on the forum a few times, because it is something that often comes up with us boys. We often have more "feminine" traits because we are raised and socialised female in line with our birth sex (not gender). I guess it depends on how comfortable you are with having those characteristics (and it sounds like you are comfortable with it, but just kind of trying to reconcile it with your gender, which is perfectly normal given how heavily society pushes the gender binary). Some guys work hard to eradicate anything that could be seen as more feminine, others are okay with it (and let's face it, not every man is uber macho, right? :) )

Question, how long have you been transitioning? I ask because the further you get into your transition, the more you will find that your gender identity will solidify - what you are describing sounds very much to me like what I went through when I first came out as being "not a girl". I knew I wasn't female, but didn't know exactly where I sat - but the more I explored that, the more I slid towards fully male, and I realised that a lot of the more "feminine" aspects of my personality that people would call me out on are not actually "feminine" characteristics, but "human" ones and this helped me enormously in establishing and solidifying my identity :)

I just wrote a long post in response to one of NiCo's threads about labels which kind of addresses the gender binary expectations - I think when we come out and transition, there is almost a period of...grieving I guess, or of wondering how the hell we fit in and how do we make all these parts of us work with our identity. I can assure you though that these things DO work themselves out as you explore your identity more and work out where you are comfortable, and if you ID as male, having the more "feminine" aspects doesn't make you any less so :)

But it is also possible to be bigendered - only you can really know where you sit though :)

ETA: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1864480#post1864480

Wow, y'know, I probably couldn't have asked for a better answer.
Thank you.

I actually very, very recently started my transition, which is one of the reasons why I've looked for an online community for this sort of thing. I suppose having accepting parents isn't the only thing needed for an early transition.
A lot of what you've mentioned makes perfect sense...

I will read the post you wrote over at NiCo's thread later, I have to get ready for classes now.
But again, thank you. :hugs:



I agree with what Dan said as far as social conditioning is concerned....When I was a child, I always felt masculine, but was raised to be female....My mother would spend inordinate amounts of time trying to force things in Me, like sitting with My legs together, speaking more softly....she hated the way I walked.... She put Me in dance classes to make Me more graceful.... I was never good at the girl thing, but I did learn to acclimate to become more socially acceptable....Those are just a few examples, but there were many.....I had to recondition Myself to being able to just relax and be Me....Early into transition, all of that is still there....and some will lose most (or all) of that, some will not....And, just as some bio men have some more sterotypically female personality traits, some transguys do, too....When you transition, changes come that you don't even realize will come....Once I started transitioning, the floodgates were opened and masculinity came flying out of Me like a freight train....even more than I had ever realized was there...so, as time goes on, you will find your way and the inner you will come out more and more....Then you will see who you really are. And welcome to the site....We're glad to have you. :)

Yeah... my (ex)step mother did the exact same thing. She came from a rich family so everything had to be perfect and proper and if you didn't do certain things you weren't lady like and that was UNACCEPTABLE.
And thanks... I'm really glad to be here :)

[DanielMacBride]

My mother would spend inordinate amounts of time trying to force things in Me, like sitting with My legs together, speaking more softly....she hated the way I walked.... She put Me in dance classes to make Me more graceful.... I was never good at the girl thing, but I did learn to acclimate to become more socially acceptable....

I know I have said it before, but are you SURE we are not actually REAL brothers? ;) My mother did ALL those things EXACTLY, too (and I HATED it - her constant mantra of "that's not very ladylike" drove me NUTS).


When you transition, changes come that you don't even realize will come....Once I started transitioning, the floodgates were opened and masculinity came flying out of Me like a freight train....

THIS. SO much this :D When you start transitioning, it's almost as if you are finally giving yourself permission to be who you ARE, as opposed to who society expects you to be - and the changes may absolutely floor you (I know they did me, but it was all SO good!) :)

And you're welcome, Chanicle - that's what we are here for, to provide support and friendship and answer questions :D Glad I could help! :)

[Ze]

Hi again, Oliver! :wave: I agree with what the other guys have said here.

I myself feel I still have plenty of femininity to me, but I also feel that most (if not all) of it was due to social conditioning. Therefore, I'm currently trying to "deprogram" myself. As I'm sure you know, it can be pretty difficult.

As it stands, I'm fine with being an effeminate man. And I agree with you in preferring to be a "girly guy" rather than a "tomboy." Two completely different things, in my book. :)

But yeah, when it comes to actual irreversible physical transitioning (hormones and surgery and such), you need to be 100% sure it's what you want and that you won't mind losing whatever physically feminine qualities you have. Otherwise, you'll simply regret it. And who wants that? :)

So yeah, I don't have any additional help to give that the other guys have already given.

[Chanicle]

Hi again, Oliver! :wave: I agree with what the other guys have said here.

I myself feel I still have plenty of femininity to me, but I also feel that most (if not all) of it was due to social conditioning. Therefore, I'm currently trying to "deprogram" myself. As I'm sure you know, it can be pretty difficult.

As it stands, I'm fine with being an effeminate man. And I agree with you in preferring to be a "girly guy" rather than a "tomboy." Two completely different things, in my book. :)

But yeah, when it comes to actual irreversible physical transitioning (hormones and surgery and such), you need to be 100% sure it's what you want and that you won't mind losing whatever physically feminine qualities you have. Otherwise, you'll simply regret it. And who wants that? :)

So yeah, I don't have any additional help to give that the other guys have already given.

My anxieties are much more at ease now (I worry about the dumbest things :doh:) thanks to what you guys have said. Like I've mentioned before, I've just started transitioning... and it feels wonderful and so weird at the same time.

I've thought about physical transformations a lot before my initial transition and I agreed with myself that I'd wait until I'm much older to take T or get surgery. But now that I've started acting outwardly like a boy (binding, haircut, clothes, etc) I feel like I wanna do more, and at the same time don't. I think when I start to get more comfortable with it I'll see how I really feel about that sort of thing...

But anyway. I really thank you all again for your thoughts. It might seem like a simple question and answer, but you really have no idea how much that made me feel like less of a freak. :whew!:

[Ze]

Not a problem. At all. :) All the guys here are great and love to help others.

I feel that I'm still fairly in the same boat as you; near the beginning of my transition, and now all the maleness is flooding out of me now that I'm letting it loose. And it makes me want to go further with it.

So no, you're definitely not a freak. And those sorts of anxieties a very normal in the beginning. I still get them myself a lot. :)

[wetleggings]

I am not very well versed in transgender studies, but I am a man who is a transvestite. I sometimes feel I want to go the opposite direction you do. But consider this. Being a girly guy is not so great as you might think. Other men will not respect you. You will not likely ever be accepted by men as a man. Men expect other men to be MEN! Not girly! A girly guy will not be a nice experience for you in my opinion. A man cannot really understand what it is like to be a woman and a woman cannot really understan what it is like to be a man. We have our ideas and our fantasies, but these are probably quite far from the truth. It will not be a simple thing, so be very careful what you choose to do.

I have on many occasions thought that I would like to be a woman. I love so much about femininity that I think it would be really great, but I know that I really have no idea what it is like to be a real woman. It is impossible for me to know this. I can only imagine. So I have concluded that it is better to fantasize a little, than to actaully try to transition. I would absolutely not do that EVER! I am not saying that it would always be a wrong thing to do, just that you have to be real, real careful. You can easily delude yourself!

[Ze]

I am not very well versed in transgender studies, but I am a man who is a transvestite. I sometimes feel I want to go the opposite direction you do. But consider this. Being a girly guy is not so great as you might think. Other men will not respect you. You will not likely ever be accepted by men as a man. Men expect other men to be MEN! Not girly! A girly guy will not be a nice experience for you in my opinion. A man cannot really understand what it is like to be a woman and a woman cannot really understan what it is like to be a man. We have our ideas and our fantasies, but these are probably quite far from the truth. It will not be a simple thing, so be very careful what you choose to do.

I have on many occasions thought that I would like to be a woman. I love so much about femininity that I think it would be really great, but I know that I really have no idea what it is like to be a real woman. It is impossible for me to know this. I can only imagine. So I have concluded that it is better to fantasize a little, than to actaully try to transition. I would absolutely not do that EVER! I am not saying that it would always be a wrong thing to do, just that you have to be real, real careful. You can easily delude yourself!

Thanks for your input, wet, but it has nothing to do with delusions.

We FtMs have limited options. Some of us are physically bigger than others, and that's great, but most of us are, well, built like women. And it sucks.

It's not that we "want" to be girly guys, but we simply take what we can get. We don't think it's the best route in life, but rather the lesser of two evils. As Chanicle said, when faced with the choice of being perceived as a tomboy (i.e. a female with masculine traits) or a girly guy (i.e. a male with feminine traits), he--and I--would pick the latter. Why? Because at least we are still being perceived as guys. Will it still suck to try and gain acceptance from the male community? Of course! Who said it wouldn't be hard as hell?

Believe me, if we had a choice between being a "girly" guy and a "macho" guy, I'm pretty sure most of us would pick the latter. It's just that the latter isn't an option for all of us. We got a raw deal starting out in life and we have to figure out how to make the best of it.

Take me, for example. I'm 5'4" and 110lbs on my best day. Am I about to join the football team or get into bar fights? Nope. Why? Common sense. I'll get my ass kicked. I'm a rational being; I know what to stay away from and what to pursue in order to make me happy within reason.

We're simply trying to work with what we're stuck with. And I don't see anything delusional about that.

[halfman_halfamazing]

no way.
on the contrary i only let my femininity...its like spelling banana i dont know when to stop.. out when i'm feeling or looking more masculine.
i don't wanna be called a girl. i don't.
i'd much rather you think i'm gay.
i feel the same as you with the whole going with the transition anyway.
i dont wanna be a tomboy. the thought weirds me out. you're either a whole girl or whole boy. that sound god awful but idk how that ended up being embedded in my head. even when i was little i used to look at tomboys and boys and think 'i wish i could dress more like that or act more like that. wait. no. i'm not supposed to. that's taking it too far'
i could also be a lesbian or a dike or butch but i cannot stand those terms!
they gross me out too. not that i'm homophobe, god know. GLBT. the T means i'm on the spectrum. i just cant go through having those words describe me.
anyway those are my two cents on this matter.
hope i made SOME sense along the way =/

[Andy66]

Chanicle, it sounds to me like you're not totally sure what you want to do and who you want to be. At your age that's totally normal. Remember that it doesn't have to be all or nothing, boy or girl. Experiment, but don't rush things or let anyone pressure you.

[NiCo]

Yeah I agree about being a feminine boy rather than a butch lass. As it was said:
i'd much rather you think i'm gay. ...this is how I feel too [and it's not so bad] lol.

Anyway, take your time, but see that...cut hair, binding and dressing in male clothing and then getting this feeling like it's not enough? That's normal...it gets worse as you get further down the line. When you get on T, you want surgery NOW, YESTERDAY, LAST WEEK sorta thing.

So just enjoy sanity while it lasts ;)

Good luck dude.

[Felix]

I don't think it helps here saying that we as transsexuals are all deluded this is way out of order in my opinion. I have had all the psych assessments and I WAS PASSED AS HAVING NO MENTAL HEALTH issues at all, no depression, anxiety, psychosis, delusional ideas or anything of the sort!!!!! My diagnosis was Transsexual which is not a mental illness but a physical problem qhite simply.

I do agree with both Trey and Dan and other trans men here that we all go through these kind of worries when we are coming to terms with ourselves. Good luck Chanicle and yeah we are a good sort here and its a great place to come for help and support, so a BIG WELCOME TO THE BOARD :hugs: xx Felix :)

[Chanicle]

Whaaat Ze said... And actually, what this entire thread has said about it. It's more common sense then anything... I'm sure MTFs wanna be supermodel sexy when they transition just as much as we guys wanna be the model of manliness... but it just isn't possible most of the time. So instead of getting worked up about it we take what we can. *shrug*

And thanks again for your words everyone... Living as a boy the past week or so has been making me feel so much better, like switching gender roles is a prozac itself. :D

[SirTrey]

Yep, to a trans person, transitioning CAN be like prozac....In spite of the many, many life/family problems that transitioning has brought into My life, at a self-acceptance/comfort level, I have never felt better or more comfortable with Myself.

[Ze]

Cool concept, Chanicle. It is like Prozac, now that I think about it. :D

[NiCo]

It's BETTER than Prozac!

Also, studies have found that most trans people suffer from ‘Personality Disorder’ and I joked when I got that diagnosis “there isn’t anything wrong with my personality…I think it would be obvious that the only wrong here is my body? No?” och well.

I DO have anxiety and depression which haven’t officially been diagnosed during my assessments because they weren’t looking for these illnesses, they were looking for the likes of schizophrenia, psychotic depression, psychosis and other psychotic illnesses. [if you have bipolar, you have to be careful cause this could slow down your process…bipolar isn’t JUST about mood going up and down, it’s classed as a psychotic illness for a reason, but a “MINOR” one].

Felix, I’m surprised because I often wondered if there was any trans people out there who doesn’t have anything mentally wrong with them [not talking about psychosis etc] because it’s very hard NOT to be anxious and depressed about something like this. But I do agree about the whole transsexuals are deluded is out of order. However, since I’m not transsexual, does that mean the deluded still counts for me? *cries* :p

I haven’t took a panic attack since starting T [what a relief!] but I do suffer from outbursts of rage [which is apparently normal so I’m not completely worried]. Generally, transitioning has worked better than any pill ever has…which pisses me off because I kept telling my specialists that years ago! I was depressed due to this problem and they said they had to work on the depression first before the gender issues so they pumped me full of pills which didn’t work and then as soon as I took matters into my own hands they saw for their selves that I was right and they were wrong. Then they started rushing along the transitioning…

I hope they include that study in their stupid medical books, maybe other trans people wont suffer the same.

Anyway, as I said, good luck and enjoy…it’s a good feeling :hugs:

[crazy4cheezeits]

Gender identity and gender expression are not the same things. You can completely identify as a guy, and still have some (or many!) feminine traits. Just as there are tomboys who still identify as women and flamboyant guys who identify as men, transfolks can be feminine transmen or masculine transwomen!

I definitely am feminine in many respects. I most closely resemble a gay man, I want to look and act similarly to a twink. I feel somewhat closer to "genderqueer" than "man," but this has nothing to do with my feminine traits. As far as particular feminine traits: I am very sensitive, I walk and dance like a gay man, I like wearing scarves indoor and wearing pink, etc.

That said, from my experience, living in between is really difficult, and if you prefer being a feminine guy to a tomboy, there are no requirements for being trans. I'm definitely considering transitioning, despite not being a complete man. :)

[Leo Lane]

We FtMs have limited options. Some of us are physically bigger than others, and that's great, but most of us are, well, built like women. And it sucks.

Yeah. I'm not all that short for a woman, but for a guy I certainly am...boo-hoo...

I'm attracted chiefly to guys, but I have never been particularly 'camp' or 'femmy' in a gay way. I am far from ultra-masculine, however. I named myself on the board after a character in Mary Renault's novel The Friendly Young Ladies, a young woman who is described as part woman, part boy. A friend of hers writes to her about the male part of her, "There are two people in you. One I have known much longer than the other...I can't tell how much he means to you. Perhaps, in the end, he is you, and has the immortal part of you in his keeping." That is how I feel: that there is a woman part of me and a boy part of me, but in the end, in the last analysis, the male in me is me.

The friend continues, "Only you can know, and even you may not be sure." And it's cool not to be sure. Why worry? Long live difference!