Can you quit?

[PretzelGirl]

In order to not hijack an existing thread, I wanted to move it to a new one. I saw these two comments in a previous thread:


I don't think one can quit. Anyone know someone who did quit and never came back to crossdressing?


Suppressing your corssdressing urges will cause you more emotional problems and it may manifest in other more devastating ways.

I have seen this get mentioned in many threads, but it never has been a complete discussion of its own (unless I missed it). A few thoughts I have on the matter.

First, I think there are people who can quit. Why do I think this? Because it is vain to think that because some of us can't quit that there isn't a person around that can.

To Jamie's point. Will suppressing crossdressing cause emotional problems? Well it is obvious from reading this board that this is true for some. But again, does the fact that something affects so many mean that it affects all? Why can't someone dress because it is an interesting challenge and then all of a sudden decide golf pleases them more?

I would like to add that we do see a lot of people who say they are stopping and then they are back here saying they made a mistake. It is easier to remember them than to remember the ones that say they are stopping and we never hear from them again. And someone can certainly quit by not even announcing it. For those that post here and quit, I would think this would be the more common approach.

Finally, I would like to point to the threads where everyone is asked what their longest time is without dressing. There are some with 2 or more decades of it being completely dormant. Something woke it back up in them, but why is it not imagineable that there are some that it never gets woke back up in and they are living healthy lives?

This is one of those subjects that I feel we don't always do the fair thing of assuming that there are all types out there. Cautioning someone about purging when they want to quit is a very prudent thing. But when the person gets overwhelmed with comments that they will be back and bad mental health will be a contributer, are we doing them justice?

[Karren H]

1). People who want to quit shouldn't come to a crossdressing forum for support and B).. You imply we don't live healthy lives? Lol.

[Barbara Dugan]

yes I can...but I dont want to:hugs:

[Cynthia_0101]

I know I cannot quit, I have gone months almost even years without but at some point Cynthia has to come out.

Just how it is for me

[karennjcd]

I'd like to bring up the notion that perhaps CD'ers quit because they have to. Not necessarily by choice, but factors could be discovery and thus rejection by a spouse or other relative, or more likely financial issues. Money is not finite, and I think we all know it's possible we can get carried away and not think about the realities of paying the bills.



Karen

[PretzelGirl]

1). People who want to quit shouldn't come to a crossdressing forum for support and B).. You imply we don't live healthy lives? Lol.

Some people might come to get talked out of it I guess. But the ones I referred to are the ones that are posting here and then decide to quit.

Yikes! I hope I am not implying that we don't live healthy lives. I don't see it in my message, but I could certainly reword something if I am missing it.

As a general note to everyone. When I asked the question, "Can You Quit?", I meant it in a more general sense as "Can Crossdresser's Quit?". Probably should have been more clearer on that.

[dragdoll]

i think i can but i have no reason to. i'm pretty androgynous looking in the first place so cding is not a big stretch for me since its usually casual attire. i believe someone can quit if they really want to, but probably need alot of other hobbies to fill up their idle time.

also, i think if someone quits and then reminisces alot about their cding days then they probably will end up doing it again, just like anything else they enjoyed, then quit, then had a renewed interest in again.

[Jamie001]

It has been proven by psychologists that it is very difficult if not impossible to quit. I was just providing an honest assessment of the situation. The person that is contemplating quitting should be advised of all the known facts. When a CD attempts to quit, usually a subconscious mental struggle erupts and this can result in panic attacks, anxiety, strained relationships, and an overall feeling of something being extremely wrong. CDing is not illegal and therefore there is no reason that we should jeopardize our mental health by quitting. In my opinion, cigarette smoking, obesity, and alcoholism are severe problems that need to be dealt with. Cding is not a problem.

:love: Jamie



In order to not hijack an existing thread, I wanted to move it to a new one. I saw these two comments in a previous thread:





I have seen this get mentioned in many threads, but it never has been a complete discussion of its own (unless I missed it). A few thoughts I have on the matter.

First, I think there are people who can quit. Why do I think this? Because it is vain to think that because some of us can't quit that there isn't a person around that can.

To Jamie's point. Will suppressing crossdressing cause emotional problems? Well it is obvious from reading this board that this is true for some. But again, does the fact that something affects so many mean that it affects all? Why can't someone dress because it is an interesting challenge and then all of a sudden decide golf pleases them more?

I would like to add that we do see a lot of people who say they are stopping and then they are back here saying they made a mistake. It is easier to remember them than to remember the ones that say they are stopping and we never hear from them again. And someone can certainly quit by not even announcing it. For those that post here and quit, I would think this would be the more common approach.

Finally, I would like to point to the threads where everyone is asked what their longest time is without dressing. There are some with 2 or more decades of it being completely dormant. Something woke it back up in them, but why is it not imagineable that there are some that it never gets woke back up in and they are living healthy lives?

This is one of those subjects that I feel we don't always do the fair thing of assuming that there are all types out there. Cautioning someone about purging when they want to quit is a very prudent thing. But when the person gets overwhelmed with comments that they will be back and bad mental health will be a contributer, are we doing them justice?

[AllieSF]

I haven't tried yet, so I cannot really say from my own personal experience. You make some good points, and are the comments of our members here really representative of the CD world at large?

[Karren H]

Cding is not a problem.

:love: Jamie


Obviously you haven't talked to my wife!!

[marny]

never want to quit.:hugs:

[BunnieCashmere]

No offense to any older CD girls out there, but I imagine once I get older and more wrinkled, I'll probably quit. I'm terrified of dressing like an older lady. Again, no offense to anyone out there who's older, it's just a personal preference of mine.

[Paula W]

I can quit if I wanted to but its too much fun to want to really.

[FluffyPersian]

I think Sue has a good point: We only see the crossdressers who quit and come back, and not those who disappear.

And to Karen's point, why SHOULD'T crossdressers who want to quit come here for support? Why shouldn't we support that as a legitimate (though difficult) option, if they want to try it?

[FluffyPersian]

It has been proven by psychologists that it is very difficult if not impossible to quit.

I'd love to hear the studies you're referring to. To my knowledge, there have been very few longitudinal studies done on cross dressing, and those that have been done have used small samples.

I'm not saying that it's desirable to stop or that people should try doing it. I'm just saying that it hasn't been "proven" impossible yet.

[Cheshire Gummi]

1). People who want to quit shouldn't come to a crossdressing forum for support and B).. You imply we don't live healthy lives? Lol.

Your logic just falls right apart when you realize 1 plus B equals garden weasel.

Anyway, stupid puns aside, I completely agree with you, Karren. Announcing you're quitting cross-dressing while being an active member here is like saying you're going to quit jogging on a board for fun-runners.

If you want to quit, you have no place on this forum, do you? We're here to learn how to understand ourselves and have a safety net for when we finally take the leap so we don't hit rock bottom. Listening to people insisting they "don't want to be a CD anymore" or that they're "over it" doesn't help anyone.

Believe it or not, it's kind of insulting. It implies that it's not who we really are, it's just a casual choice, like eating bacon or smoking cigarettes. This is a perfectly healthy LIFESTYLE, not a bad habit you can just kick to the curb.

If you think you can just up and quit, then you embarrass us all. I don't care what your excuse is.

[Miranda09]

My philosophy about dressing is simple....! control my desires. If I quit, I quit...if not, I don't let it overwhelm me or dominate my life. I think there's room inside for both personas to exist side-by-side...sometimes with compromise, sometimes with not!! :)

[Ralph]

Cautioning someone about purging when they want to quit is a very prudent thing. But when the person gets overwhelmed with comments that they will be back and bad mental health will be a contributer, are we doing them justice?

I think I love you (cough) in a platonic way. Common sense is not dead! Well said, and I hope your wise words turn around some negative attitudes.

[DaisyG]

Bunnie, Don't be too sure. As we mature (that's what I feel, mature. I don't feel OLDER), we will always relate to our age group, and for the most part our tastes will probably grow and change along with everything else. But we don't have to give up elegance and good taste.

I'm just weeks short of age 70, and I just bought a wine-red column skirt which I am now wearing. I LOVE it! And that skirt would look just as great on a girl in her 30's as it does on me. In fact, if my 18 year old granddaughter was onto my CD-ing, she'd likely be jealous about that skirt.

If you're one who feels she must dress now, likely you'll find it even more to your liking in the coming years.

May we all live long and prosper!

Daisy

[Midnight Skye]

I can't quit... not even close... I've tried and it caused me more pain and complications than I ever care to explain. I have read that some can quit by replacing the need to dress with another activity which fills the same niche... but I don't know anyone who'd done so. And I'm not even sure if thats true... or if its something a couple of psychologists are trying to tell crossdressers in some wild hope of "fixing" them.

All the same I respect anyone who wants to quit, and it may be a sound choice for a person based on their current life. My life would be much easier if I could quit... but my desire is completely the opposite, I need more... probably the whole switcheroo thing -giggles - In my personally experience, a person needs to really look deep at what drives them to dress. If they can meet that deep need somehow else (safely) then go for it. If they can't meet that deep need... the dressing will most likely comeback and possibly with bad timing.

Just my 2cents... and thats probably all its actually worth ;)

[KELLYANN]

i don't think i could quit. the point being brought up so often' i would have to say NO. i really don't think that i can. Kelly can be very demanding' new shoes'clothes'makeup etc. and Kellyann usually gets what she wants. can't help it. i love it. can't see myself purging ever:battingeyelashes:

[Ballerina]

Personally, I haven't even started enough to quit. But, when I do, I know I never will. I will fight to keep what I have.

I do think that there are those that are able to quit. Ya, it's a rough road, but I believe that those people are able to. In an odd way, I hope that there are those out there that have quit before and are willing to help those that want to quit.

[trannie T]

I could quit dressing. I doubt that I shall ever lose the desire to dress. If I were to quit I would not be a very happy camper.

[Jennifer_Cross]

I joined this forum late last year.... After finding out my GG likes cross dressing.

We had a lot of fun but in the new year I fell ill and have not dressed for 9 months. she never even broached the subject... I got a little irritable lol.. What a killer??

Last night I said I was going to rid my clothes and accesories as it had been too long and would take too long to re-build the trust (in cross dressing)

Tis was a discussion about a lot of things (sexual) not an argument, but she said she would be very upset if I did stop!

I don't want to and love the fact she LOVES it. Finally in life I have everything I want.

Are you sure you REALLY want to quit for your OWN reasons or just frustrated like I have been?

Jen

[Jenniferpl]

The older I become, the greater the desire to dress. The ability to stop is not within me. Been there, tried that. I have given up trying to stop. Sometimes it is a pain in the butt and I wish that need would go away. Than there are times when it is a blast picking what underwear to wear with what. What shade lipstick to use. Which pair of heels to wear. I have discovered that I enjoy those type of decisions. Stopping, would take that away.

Those that have been able to stop, I tip my hat to them.

[bimini1]

We are all different. I believe some may simply out grow it. Not a conscious effort to quit but something that happens almost on it's own. It gets to a point where the person can't get any more 'mileage' out of it. They have accomplished all they wanted to do with it and it happens outside of their control, the urge just leaves.
The harder you try to snuff something out the harder it is, let it happen naturally.
Some come to a point where they have pushed it as far as it can go, to quote BB King, The Thrill Is Gone. Do I personally know any one like that, no, but I know some who have hinted at it.

[Mollyanne]

Can I quit??? Yes I can whenever I put my mind to it, but then again I don't have a mind and why would I want to quit when it feels sooooo good to become the female who lives just under my skin and inside my head!!!!

Mollyanne

[Raychel]

Sure, if I wanted to I could quit. But there is so little that I actually for myself that I truely enjoy. This is what I do for me, A few hours a months and very little money. Every other minute I have and every dollar that I have go to supporting my family. So a few hours a month, and a few dollars a month is pretty smallm if it helps me relax and deal with some of the stresses in my life

I hope that make sense:2c:

[DAVIDA]

I guess that if I quit, I could open up a thrift shop specializing in size 2&3X clothes. And size 12 shoes!

I think that the BooHooing would frighten off any customers.

[Nicole Brown]

I have absolutely no idea if I could quit dressing and being Nicole or not. The fact is I don't care to know because I have absolutely no desire to quit. Being Nicole is a very important part of me, it is an expression of who I am. Recently, Nicole has begun to be the more dominant side of my personality and I really like it that way.

As I have mentioned in prior posts, I will have to opportunity to live as Nicole full time for an entire week in early October. I consider that time as a possible turning point in my life. If all goes well, and things turn out as I hope they will, I will most likely be making some major changes with Nicole taking a more full time place in my life.

Nicole

[xAnne_Mariex]

Even if I wanted/needed to quit I wouldn't be able to, this is who I am, not some little hobby I can drop at the drop of a hat.

I tried several years ago and what followed was years of depression, unhappiness and lying to myself.

[Angie G]

I think if a person really wants something they can achieve it. Stop smoking stop drinking and so on. I also think cross dressing is not the same if it is born in you I don;t think one can just stop. I myself would never wish to stop for it is who I am and who i wish to be. I truly do wish I could go 24/7 but that ain't happening.:hugs:
Angie

[DianneRoberts]

No, simply, no.
Absolutely, positively NO.

Can I PAUSE for a day or two, or maybe even a week, yes, but not without being VERY moody.

I've quit a few things in my life, so I know I can quit some things.
This is just NOT one of them.

[TSchapes]

Just like it's possible for a person to become a monk to quit having sex and be celibate. it is possible for a TG person to quit this lifestyle. It does not mean it would be easy though, just like it's not easy to be celibate. I would think there would have to be a real big counter payoff to fight what you feel inside and be something that you are not. :2c:

-Tracy

[battybattybats]

Even if we can quit, we hurt others by quitting!

We are conditioned to assume quitting helps others but the opposite is true.

We hurt our families by denying them the long-term benefit of having a CD family member. We look at the short-term pain and ignore that its a growth-pain.

We hurt society by not forcing it to accept the reality of CDing and undo the removal of CD culture that once was accepted.

We hurt the entire next generation of future CDs! They need us to push the borders and make life easier on them. If we pass the buck and selfishly quit, thats right i said it selfishly quit, then we make them suffer our due.

Every people that have gone from severely hated to socially more accepted had to pay a price, as unjust as that is, of struggle to make gains. Racial minorities, persecuted religions, womens rights... all had to make a choice, between selfish short-term status quo and keeping head bowed and not making waves or subjecting families and friends to stress or doing whats right and making a better world for their children and everyone elses.

The fact is quitting or attempting to is the selfish choice!
It hurts everyone!

[Kate Simmons]

It shouldn't be "this" vs "that". Any intention to "quit" has to be in conjunction with an understanding of the base feelings that drive CDing to begin with coupled with willingness to take responsibility for our own actions and for making our own decisions. These things go hand in hand and attempts to separate them will be unsuccessful. I don't look at it as "quitting" so much as melding the feelings together under one umbrella.It's all us after all. If we are free to express the feelings any time and are not restricted, we will find it is easier to make it a choice to CD or not rather than yielding to an over riding compulsion that will take us over. That is the real key to "quitting" as it were.

[bettysmith]

I have challenged my cross dressing on several occasions , and stopped .

However , each time I have returned to it , and now decided it is part of my make-up , so I now just enjoy it !!

Betty:heehee:

[Angie F]

I think the are different degrees of cd'ing, such as there are some that do it for the sexual effect it has on them, there are others that like the feel of the fabric on thier skin and so on.... so many diffrent people, and so many different reasons. Surely there are some that have tryed cd'ing and said "ok that was fun, but on to something else now"
Will suppressing the cd'ing cause emotional problems? Depends on the individual, I've seen some respond to this saying they could quit, but wouldn't be happy, isn't that an emotional problem?
This thread has so much to comment on, and could be debated on for hours, but I can only speak for myself in saying that first I have no desire to quit dressing the way I dress, so therefore we'll never no if I could quit or not. :)

[Sally2005]

I only know people who could not quit. I also don't know of anyone who did quit. I know of people who have tried to quit and years later returned with a vengence. That doesn't mean it is impossible. Maybe when they quit we never hear from them again.

I've done the purging cycles, quit for a long stretch, but what I discovered is the feelings are part of who I am...CDing or not. For many years I felt shame, but once I just stopped fighting it and accepted it much of the compelling force went away and I feel a lot happier. It may be possible to stop the physical dressing part as long as you don't try too hard to stop thinking about it and you have answered some of the questions that needed answering. By facing your fears and gaining real life experience, I found I no longer needed dress for those reasons.

[Chiana]

No offense to any older CD girls out there, but I imagine once I get older and more wrinkled, I'll probably quit. I'm terrified of dressing like an older lady. Again, no offense to anyone out there who's older, it's just a personal preference of mine.

No offense taken, Bunnie. I completely understand this. My dream has always been to be able to see some really pretty, late teen or early 20's, babe staring back at me in the mirror. The older lady thing just never did it for me. But here I am, almost 65 and last night I did the whole makeup thing for the first time since it got too hot in the spring and I am just loving it. It was/is a very soul satisfying event. I have a golf game with some friends in a little while but I just don't want to change back into the drab mode.

As for the original question. I think people can repress crossdressing but I don't think you can loose the desire to dress. There have been times in my life when I have retired from dressing temporarily. But I have never purged. Not that I am clever or have things figured out in life but somehow, I always knew I would have the desire. It is just way too important to me.

[PretzelGirl]

I think I love you (cough) in a platonic way. Common sense is not dead! Well said, and I hope your wise words turn around some negative attitudes.

:love:


Even if we can quit, we hurt others by quitting!

The fact is quitting or attempting to is the selfish choice!
It hurts everyone!

Wow Batty! First I want to say that I appreciate your normal efforts to further the cause. But you are saying that if a person feels they need to quit (for whatever reason - job, marraige) and they feel they are able (whatever percentage this may be), that they should keep dressing because they are hurting others? What about themselves and those they are trying to do it for? In the end, if you can't help of yourself, you sure are not going to be able to help others.

[TGMarla]

Can you quit?

Sure. Done it a hundred times.


Interesting, the comment Batty made about quitting actually hurting others. Let me expand on it for a minute. Let's say your wife knows nothing about your dressing, or knows and does not lend her support. She fell in love with the person you are, and part of the reason you are that person is because you have this feminine aspect to your personality. Were you to quit, and begin dealing with the ramifications of not having this as an outlet, it may manifest itself in unpleasant ways that would cause harm to your relationships with your loved ones. Suddenly you are not the sensitive, caring person she knows and loves. Suddenly you have this edge of resentfulness and frustration, and she's not sure just why. Suddenly she finds that asking you if this outfit looks nice on her, or if the curtains are a good fit for this room brings a callous and uncaring answer instead of the pleasant one she's grown accustomed to. She may not know it, but the crossdresser in you is one of the things about you that made her fall in love with you in the first place.

Food for thought.

[JoAnne Wheeler]

I cannot quit - I have tried many times - have gone through the awful purges

And the DESIRE keeps coming back, only stronger. Since I can not quit, I

have come to accept who and what I am - and that makes a whole lot of

difference once you can accept your femininity.

JoAnne Wheeler

[SweetCaroline]

No, and I wouldn't want to. Caroline is really who I am. To "quit" would be to deny an major part of myself. That, and crossdressing is more than just a hobby or isolated event for me. It's become a full fledged lifestyle. A vast majority of my friends these days are members of the Transgendered community. If I stopped crossdressing, I would lose about 98% of my social contacts.

Quiting is not an option for me anymore.

[Joselle3]

Why would yo want to quit? Its not like you robbed a bank, stole a car or broke into your neighbors house
It's ony clothes for gawds sake!
Why all the guilt? Just don't get it

[shannonFL]

I've done the purging cycles, quit for a long stretch, but what I discovered is the feelings are part of who I am...CDing or not. For many years I felt shame, but once I just stopped fighting it and accepted it much of the compelling force went away and I feel a lot happier. It may be possible to stop the physical dressing part as long as you don't try too hard to stop thinking about it and you have answered some of the questions that needed answering. By facing your fears and gaining real life experience, I found I no longer needed dress for those reasons.[/QUOTE]

Really well said, me too, now find it hard to quit long enough for "him" to do what he must, and used to enjoy as a guy....

[KarenSusan]

No.

[PretzelGirl]

Let me expand on it for a minute. Let's say your wife knows nothing about your dressing, or knows and does not lend her support.
Food for thought.

Marla, I like your example. It is a good example of one case. But everyone's life is different and to say it is detrimental to all people is not keeping our minds open to what may work best for the person who is saying they want to quit.

For example, let's say I get dressed one Halloween and I find it intriguing how I look. So I start crossdressing as I want to see how much I can look like a woman. Eventually I reach a threshold where I am not improving and I have now obtained the best look I can get. So I decide I am done. I post a message saying I am done because I have made friendships here and will miss everyone. In reponse, I get replies that say "you will be back", "you will get sick inside and have mental issues". Well, none of this would be true. But it is what we see each time someone says they are quitting.


Why would yo want to quit? Its not like you robbed a bank, stole a car or broke into your neighbors house
It's ony clothes for gawds sake!
Why all the guilt? Just don't get it

Some people do want to quit. There can be a lot of valid reasons without guilt being an issue.

So let me put what I am getting at into context (hopefully). I believe that far and away the majority here do not want to quit and feel it could be detrimental to do so. But when a person posts a thread that they want to quit, we aren't exploring the reasons and trying to help them based on their life. We take our view on our own reasons and tell them that is how it is. Is this really fair to that individual? It is a support board and to tell someone that they are going to ruin their lives in some manner if they quit isn't the best support in my view. Maybe it is the right thing for this person to quit. So do we need to open our eyes a little more for that person's benefit.

I would hope (if the person is sticking around long enough to discuss it), that we explore their reasons. And based on those reasons, I would hope we try and give them sound advice based on those reasons. Yes, we aren't professionals, and we may direct them to a professional if it seems needed.

I guess this is another of those types of things that gets the broad brush and I don't believe it is malicious in any way. We tend to speak based on our own experiences because that is what we have to draw on. So we tend to address everyone as "girls" because we come here thinking MTF Crossdressers but yet there are FTM, male crossdressers identifying as male, GG's, fully transitioned individuals, and many others.

Since these I quit messages seem to come up at least once a month, I wanted to stimulate our thoughts on how we respond and to be sure we are taking care of our fellow members.

[Jenny Brown]

Even if we can quit, we hurt others by quitting!

This may quite possibly be the most illogical comment I've ever seen on this forum.

[kellycan27]

I am no longer a cross dresser. I purged 4 years ago. It was very simple really....... I just gathered up all of my "drab" clothing and donated it to a local shelter. No more cd'in for me... I dress ,work,play,love and live as a woman 24/7, 365:heehee:

[Jamie001]

I agree. It is not like you are doing something that is illegal or harmful. Why quit? You are not doing anything that is illegal and it is not hurting anyone.


Why would yo want to quit? Its not like you robbed a bank, stole a car or broke into your neighbors house
It's ony clothes for gawds sake!
Why all the guilt? Just don't get it

There is nothing illogical about the comment. We do hurt others by quitting. Many CDs quit and then have mood swings, depression, and other mental problems. Those problems are real and affect other people.


This may quite possibly be the most illogical comment I've ever seen on this forum.

[battybattybats]

This may quite possibly be the most illogical comment I've ever seen on this forum.

Explain please how its illogical.

I suspect you havent factored in to the equation that there will be future CDs and their families who, if we choose to take the hard road will live with less hardship but who, if we take the selfish road of avoiding the hard work will live with the same struggles we do now. Or worse we could slide back on the gains of the past CDs.

Avoiding long term growth by avoiding the short term pain required for that growth is called idiot-compassion in bhuddism. It's also called dying of gangrene in medicine by not putting the antiseptic on the infected wound cause it will sting.

By trying to not hurt ourselves and families we hurt them and all society more. By trying to avoid some pain we inflict worse pain over generations whereas gritting our teeth and letting the buck stop here would stop the cycle.

[Maia Saturn]

This may quite possibly be the most illogical comment I've ever seen on this forum.

Stick around luv, there are more...

1. People who don't KNOW everyone, or MET everyone, in the WORLD, should not speak for everyone in the WORLD. i.e, as in broad-ranging statements such as: "Everyone thinks about sex at one time or other."

2. People who have not GRADUATED, or ATTENDED, any sort of MEDICAL school or have ownership of any ACCREDITED MEDICAL KNOWLEDGE, should not, ever, under any circumstances, give medical advice. i.e. "If you dress in womens clothes, and you are not a woman, you might end up with West Nile Virus"

3. People who read internet forums, such as this one, should never take advice from other people within those forums who give MEDICAL, PSYCHOLOGICAL, THEOLOGICAL, ASTRONOMICAL, OR GASTROINTESTINAL advice, nor should they listen to broad-ranging statements provided by such persons.

My work here is done...

[Jenny Brown]

Explain please how its illogical.

You need to realize that everyone on this forum is NOT a trans-activist like you. Anyone who has the willpower to quit cd-ing, and wants to - should do it because it's what they want to do, and for no other reason. And, it's definitely NOT hurting anyone if they quit.
Enough said. I won't be sucked into one of your long winded rambling exchanges.

[Cheryl T]

Why would I want to quit being me? This is who I am and always has been.

Should I quit being right-handed?
Should I quit being tall (well, maybe that could be a benefit)?

I'll never quit being me and me is who you see...

[BunnieCashmere]

You need to realize that not everyone on this forum is NOT a trans-activist like you. Anyone who has the willpower to quit cd-ing, and wants to - should do it because it's what they want to do, and for no other reason. And, it's definitely NOT hurting anyone.
Enough said. I won't be sucked into one of your long winded rambling exchanges.

I agree. I'm not a lifetime cd girl. I don't live like this, I don't stay dressed up for weeks. It's a hobby. It's something I do for fun, and kicks. I've never wanted to look like a woman 24/7, that's too demanding. I can easily give this up, and if I did, my wife wouldn't care, my friends wouldn't care. Nobody I know would really care. As I said before, it's just a hobby.

[sherri52]

No I can't nor do I want to. You are right though there could be someone out there that has quit. They haven't come back to this site because they dont need the support of thier cd'ing. I am sure that the odds are very low on quiting, the failed attempts tell you that. I have never stopped being a cd but there was a time when I didn't go all out or shave my legs or pluck my brows. More than one stretch, but I always dressed.

[carhill2mn]

Hi Bunnie, I think that as you get older you will find that your urge to CD will increase, not decrease. There are several advantages that older CDs discover; you will attract less attention, older GWs will tend to look less feminine than young women; you will have fewer concerns/worries about being a CD.
As to whether anyone can "quit" CDing. I think that it sort of depends upon your definition of "quitting". Perhaps, a person can stop actually dressing but the desire to do so is likely to be always present.

[dennisGTS]

I know I can't quit. I tried to quit many years ago when I got married, and like a bad addiction, the "urges" came back within a year. I enjoy CDing so much, I don't think I ever want to quit; CDing is a part of my life and who I am.

[ashcrimson]

Its just a matter of priority. When one is faced by a threat of losing or acquiring a greater one, I think anyone is capable of letting go of something.

As for the effects of actually leaving crossdressing, I think this is relative to the person, we cant just definitively say what it will be like it is impossible to quantify this accurately.

As for how I will feel about it if ever, it will seriously hurt me.

It will hurt my wallet too, I have gotten rid of my mens clothes even my socks, am I to buy everything again???

[TxKimberly]

Sure I can quit - I've done it at least a dozen times!


. . . 1). People who want to quit shouldn't come to a crossdressing forum for support . . .

Actually there are some people that joined this forum because they thought it was FOR quiting. You know, like AA or something.

[Cathytg]

I think that the key to being able to quit (or not) depends largely upon why you dress.

If you dress because you like the clothes and the feeling they give you, perhaps you could quit.

If you dress because you are truly transgendered and need dressing as an outlet, then you might not be able to quit.

The issue is not so much what you do as it is who you are.

[Wen4cd]

At this point in my life, the reasons I would quit cross-dressing, (or want to,) are these:

1. Bored of it, (hasn't happened yet, in decades)

2. I lose my eyesight. (There would be no point. I am a pretty visual person. I get no joy from 'the feel of smooth stockings,' etc..)

3. If I did some deep soul searching, and found the activity was absolutely hindering my emotional, spiritual, or personality development.

The third one is the tricky one. I am always looking for this, and haven't found anything negative in the activity itself. Actually, it appears to be beneficial so far. But I've seen it seem to be a hindrance to some others occasionally. (Either that, or their possibly unrelated issues were just dumped on, or lumped in, with it.) If I honestly found it a problem hindering my psychological health or growth, I would, naturally, try to stop doing it.

Usually though, it's a simple matter of reframing it, or of viewing it the right way. But it's that way about everything. Clothing is totally benign to your psychic being without you interpereting it one way or another.

[battybattybats]

You need to realize that everyone on this forum is NOT a trans-activist like you. Anyone who has the willpower to quit cd-ing, and wants to - should do it because it's what they want to do, and for no other reason.

This isnt about me.

It's about responsibility. We make choices with consequences so are responsible for those consequences.

And our responisbility is long term as well as short term. Our choices decide the fate of the next generation.

The amont of TGs murdered in the next few decades, the amount of TG suicides are decided by US NOW.

If we duck responsibility selfishly the next generation of CDs will suffer like we are. That's hurting! And if we dont help our families adjust it'll be harder for them to cope when society does change around them cause they'll be faced with it eventually just like people had to adjust to women in mens jobs and racial desegregation. That's hurting!


And, it's definitely NOT hurting anyone if they quit.

Yes it is! It hurts a generation of CDs. It hurts the families of us and of the future CDs by not giving them the chance to grow and get over this.

It's a definate case of over-protection where protecting people from short-term painful growth just makes it worse for them and others in the future.


Enough said. I won't be sucked into one of your long winded rambling exchanges.

Well i hope thats not long-winded nor rambling.

Cause we have to bite the bullet and face the fact that we have a responsibility to our families long-term as well as short, our descendants who may carry a TG-gene/s, to society and to every other CD alive!

Your CDing does not exist in isolation, we are not unique and our choices have ramifications on everyone around us including by inaction so you and I and all of us have a responisbility to everyone because of it. And instead of that being an imperative to quit its in fact an imperative to cause change.

We have a moral and ethical responsibility to all Transgender people and our families! Every one of us without exception.

[The Gas Man Cometh]

This may quite possibly be the most illogical comment I've ever seen on this forum.

Only if you fail to see the big picture.

For the record, Jenny, you will do well short and long term to learn some manners and stop being so rude.

[Jenny Brown]

We have a moral and ethical responsibility to all Transgender people and our families! Every one of us without exception.
Again, you assume that everyone on this forum is a TG activist and crusader like you. Not so at all.

[Tamara Croft]

Only if you fail to see the big picture.

For the record, Jenny, you will do well short and long term to learn some manners and stop being so rude.And you and Batty need to stop tag teaming in threads, that is rude... knock it off! This is a CD forum, not an activist forum.

[charlen]

i have to agree with cynthia i have quit for a year or more and then come back going too stay this time it feels to good:brolleyes:

[The Gas Man Cometh]

And you and Batty need to stop tag teaming in threads, that is rude... knock it off! This is a CD forum, not an activist forum.

I haven't insulted anyone, unlike others.

[Tamara Croft]

I haven't insulted anyone, unlike others. Telling someone to learn some manners? I would say that was an insult and rude.

[The Gas Man Cometh]

Telling someone to learn some manners? I would say that was an insult and rude.

Why not at all. It was a simple gesture of thoughtfulness, to help them succeed more in getting their point across in the future.

[battybattybats]

Again, you assume that everyone on this forum is a TG activist and crusader like you. Not so at all.

I don't. Ethical responsibilities don't apply only to 'activists'. They are a part of every persons every action.

My suggestion is we are accountable to the damage we do to others by not acting. That we all share the responsibility to other CDs. You'll find Utilitarian Ethicist Peter Singer makes much the same argument relating to a series of things (despite my disagreements with him on several issues).

If we suggest morality and ethics only apply to activists doesnt that remove any responsibility a CD has to anyone? Now that would be illogical wouldn't it?

So the question is, does quitting or attempting to effectively result in passing the buck and shirking responsibility to family and to future generations of CDs and to all society? Now that may be true or untrue regardless of whether an activist or not.

[Tamara Croft]

Why not at all. It was a simple gesture of thoughtfulness, to help them succeed more in getting their point across in the future.No, it was rude and insulting. You say things like that to a child, not a grown adult, who does not need to be told to learn manners for having a point, which you don't agree with. And that is enough of going off topic in this thread. You can either post on topic, or I'm deleting it.

[Wen4cd]

My question is: Is telling someone they have a moral or ethical obligation to do something you want them to do ANY different when it's applied to say, "not quitting cross-dressing" than it is when applied to "not cross-dresing?"

Everybody thinks thay have the moral, ethical, or intellectual high ground, and the higher the ground one perceives they're standing on, the more obnoxious the utterances along these lines are going to be.

[suchacutie]

Let's look at the word 'quit'.

Can I quit transforming into my femme self? Well, for a while I certainly can as that's what happens when my privacy disappears.

Can I quit thinking about my femme self. In all honesty, there is little chance of that. The fact is that we discovered Tina 4 years ago and found that she had been lurking there for a long time. She is part of the complete me. How can I not want to understand who she is? Why would my wife not want to know who she is?

Tina has a thoght process of her own. She has likes and dislikes distinct from the male self. As we begin to separate the two processes it starts to become clear who the summation of these processes is! It is fascinating to understand that my mind is a mix of masculine and feminine approaches to life. Once that was understood, how could that stop?

Also, general life changes have occurred. This body we share gets taken care of differently now. There is no chance that I'm going to go back to being a completely male (read: unkept) body! Give up facials? Give up neat eyebrows? Give up moisturizing? Give up well-cared for nails? Why or how could I do that? I enjoy have a better body and enjoy that my wife thinks it's terrific as well.

As far as continuing as I get older, it's a mute point. I started at age 56 and I think it's an advantage to be older if you want to exist en femme. I think it's much harder to detect a cross-gender presentation as one gets older, assuming voice and body language are good feminine clues.

So, what's the conclusion? For me, it's clear that I have an active feminine psyche that's mixed in with my active masculine psyche, and I'm not about to shut down knowing about what is a strong part of my being. How could anyone shut that off?

tina

[Sammy777]

Even if we can quit, we hurt others by quitting!


This may quite possibly be the most illogical comment I've ever seen on this forum.

Really??? And how do you explain the quote below?



Even if I wanted/needed to quit I wouldn't be able to,

I tried several years ago and what followed was years of depression, unhappiness and lying to myself.

Are you telling me that the feelings above only affect that person and nobody around them?

I may not wholeheartedly agree with Batty's activist angle, but I do have to agree with the general statement.

Anger, Depression, Withdrawal, ect, ect ALL of those things not only hurt that person but do have an effect on the people around them.

[kateyliz]

Can I quit? I don't know, I don't want to. Hugs, Kathy

[battybattybats]

My question is: Is telling someone they have a moral or ethical obligation to do something you want them to do ANY different when it's applied to say, "not quitting cross-dressing" than it is when applied to "not cross-dresing?"

Well yes. The difference is in defining which is the greater harm (for utilitarian ethics and the like) or most virtuous (for idealism etc).

My suggestion is that it is a very greater harm to try and quit and most virtuous to not try but instead change the situation for future CDs. I'd be interested in any counterpoints if any, reasoned rather than rhetoric of course, that dont rely on ad-hominems or just disregard for the whole field of ethical study.

[Princess Chantal]

I could see myself retiring from my crossdressing tendencies, someday.

[Amy]

I did

[Ralph]

It has been proven by psychologists that it is very difficult if not impossible to quit.
Proven by which psychologists? Cite the study, date, and researcher names so we can read this proof you are so familiar with.

Also, are you talking specifically about quitting crossdressing, or any addictive behavior such as smoking, heroin, whatever?

[JulieC]

If it were possible to quit, then there'd be stories of people quitting for good, but they don't exist. There's no support groups for 'former' CDers. There's no self-help books on how to quit CDing. There's no research papers discussing hormonal cures to crossdressing.

The absence of these things is very telling. I long for the day when someone decides to actually do some research in this area. For now, we're treated like Caster Semenya.

[Amy]

It can and has been done. It's not fun. It's not easy and it takes constant determination and commitment. The truth is that for some the plusses of dressing up just don't add up to the minuses it can have on your life. For those that really feel that they don't want to have this you absolutely can stop. But that doesn't mean that the urges go away right away or probably ever.

I've not dressed in well over a year and for me I don't think it's likely I ever will again but that doesn't mean I don't still struggle with the urge to. I'm not saying this to be like neener neener you can to but just to say that there are people who choose not to because they feel that's what will be best for them in their life.

The important thing is not to rely on others to tell you what you can or can not do you do what you feel is best for you in your circumstances.

[Sammy777]

To answer the OP's question. "Can I quit?"

I have been thinking about doing just that for some time now.

Some days it's crystal clear to me, like it's time to move on.
Other days I still see the need to keeping doing it for now.

It's an ingrained part of me that I truly wish was never there to begin with.
I feel like it is something that was unduly forced upon me at an early age.
I had no say in the matter, no way to fight it or be rid of it.

It quickly became a part of me, part of who I am and it seems like that will never change, no matter how badly I want it too. No matter how much I want to wish it away it will always be there, somewhere. It is just something I have to deal with.

I have been doing it for so long now and it seemed natural, almost automatic, but not anymore! I feel less and less like the person I see staring back at me in the mirror, the feeling is gone and Elvis has left the building.

For a time I fooled myself, thinking it was OK, even liking it, but not anymore, it feels fake, a thin film, a charade, something to get me by on most days.

Well I for one say - Yes you can quit.
You can be done with it, and that is exactly what I am going to do in the near future.

I will soon be done with it all, the clothes, the walk, the talk all of it will soon be a thing of the past once and for all. It is not something I want to do, but feel it is something I need to do so I can finally live my life the way it was meant to be lived.

I will no longer be shackled to the "grab and trappings".
Soon all of it will be gone and I'll never go back to being a "man". :D

What?? Did you think I was turning my back on being the woman I was meant to be?
Because that would be funny! :lol2:

[StephanieH]

I think just about everybody "could" quit something, regardless of whatever it was. Yes, I could quit, but as others have said, I wouldn't be very happy about it. :sad:

[Jenny Brown]

I don't. Ethical responsibilities don't apply only to 'activists'. They are a part of every persons every action.
My suggestion is we are accountable to the damage we do to others by not acting. That we all share the responsibility to other CDs. You'll find Utilitarian Ethicist Peter Singer makes much the same argument relating to a series of things (despite my disagreements with him on several issues). If we suggest morality and ethics only apply to activists doesnt that remove any responsibility a CD has to anyone? Now that would be illogical wouldn't it?
So the question is, does quitting or attempting to effectively result in passing the buck and shirking responsibility to family and to future generations of CDs and to all society? Now that may be true or untrue regardless of whether an activist or not.
Ethical responsibilities?
Let me get this straight...
You're insinuating that if someone cd's, they have an "ethical responsibility" to NOT stop cd-ing even if they desire to stop? :eek:
That's deep, even for you Batty.
It's not only deep, it's so far out in left field, I think very few people will agree with you. Look...if you want to crusade for Trans-Rights or whatever you want to call it, I say more power to you.
But, I can just about guarantee you that 95% (maybe more) of the members here won't be jumping on your Trans-Activist bandwagon anytime soon.
It's simply not going to happen. And the ones who aren't volunteering have no "ethical responsibility" to anyone. The majority of people here just want to wear girl's clothes now and then...it really is as simple as that.

[baby beluga]

Society deems clothing to be a necessity, so no I cannot quit wearing any.

[Wen4cd]

Well yes. The difference is in defining which is the greater harm (for utilitarian ethics and the like) or most virtuous (for idealism etc).

My suggestion is that it is a very greater harm to try and quit and most virtuous to not try but instead change the situation for future CDs. I'd be interested in any counterpoints if any, reasoned rather than rhetoric of course, that dont rely on ad-hominems or just disregard for the whole field of ethical study.

Actually I think there is no essential difference between telling people they should not quit dressing, and saying 'nobody should ever dress.' One generalizing opinion is as useless and bullyish as another.

Your suggestion is flawed, I feel, because it presupposes quite a lot of statements that aren't necessarily valid. It assumes:

a) that CDs have some undefined external 'goal' that must be achieved before any of us should be allowed to be happy with ourselves.

b) that there is an undefined but universal 'situation' that needs to be changed.

c) that some individual quitting dressing is going to somehow hinder this change from this undefined situation to this undefined goal.

d) that quitting cross-dressing is never in the best interests of any individual's mental health.

e) that even if quitting cross-dressing was in the best interests of someone's mental health, that particular individual should still sacrifice his health in the name of your agenda to move from the the undefined situation to the undefined goal, whether or not it's also his goal, or was ever his goal.

f) that because you have one thing in common with this individual, he should adopt your agenda, alter his entire life around achieving your goal, and do harm to himself to satisfy your worldview.

g) that the motivation for cross-dressing is always, universally, based in the physical body rather than the psyche, because it can never be in the best interest of someone's mental health to stop doing it.

h) that if someone disagrees with any of these assumptions, they are immoral and are guilty of hurting others in the vague future.

Not all of us accept these presuppositions. I'd be surprised if anyone accepts more than one or two.

I could counter-suggest that the harm of asking real, actual people in the here and now, to potentially damage themselves in the name of validating your suggestion's worldview far outweighs any imagined harm to these ethereal 'future CD's,' and that there is no reason whatsoever to believe it would help them in the first place, that in fact it would hurt their personal development by process of having bad examples to follow; damaged role-models with strained, put-on smiles, merely recruited and recruiting only to speak and repeat the worldview's terms over and over again in an endless looping cycle.

I'm also hearing a few things from the tone that suggest ideas that sound like: "two wrongs DO make a right" and "it's acceptable to impose your will on others if you think you know what's better for them more than they do."

Are these the sort of ethics one learns from Peter "it's acceptable to have sex with animals but wrong to eat them" Singer? If so, I'll do without those ethics.

[The Gas Man Cometh]

Give up facials? Give up neat eyebrows? Give up moisturizing? Give up well-cared for nails? Why or how could I do that? I enjoy have a better body and enjoy that my wife thinks it's terrific as well.

Personally, I don't consider looking after yourself particularly masculine or feminine. I see it as self preservation irrespective of gender or sex.

Thinks like neat eyebrows, nail care and well moisturised skin are genderless. My brother uses a lot of moisturiser for practical reasons. He's a chef and so needs to look after the skin on his hands. He always has neat and tidy hair, well kept nails that are clean and trimmed. All sorts of things just to be neat and tidy and smelling good.

Even if one were to quit specifically cross DRESSING, why would they quit self preservation?

[Stephanie Miller]

Of course I can quit. Heck it's got to be the easiest thing in the world. Watch..... I quit!

[Stephanie Miller]

Shoot. First time in my life I've been wrong. O.K. So I can't. :sigh:
(Drat, that was a long time :whew!: )

[Sammy777]

Yaaaaaaaa, OK, We get it.
I think it is time to stop :spank: and :bigsmack: Batty.

And stop :dh2: :dh: already. :lol2: :lol2:

Soooooo, what was this thread about again?

[battybattybats]

Sorry for the length but long questions posed to me result in it.


Ethical responsibilities?
Let me get this straight...
You're insinuating that if someone cd's, they have an "ethical responsibility" to NOT stop cd-ing even if they desire to stop? :eek:
That's deep, even for you Batty.

If we pass the buck someone else will have to suffer. We are the ones whose choices will determine the next generation of CDs number of suicides, murders and successful happy lives. We must consider the harm of attempting to quit and failing on our families and friends. We also have to look at what will be the lot of the next generation of CDs if we don't do our individual part to change that.


It's not only deep, it's so far out in left field, I think very few people will agree with you.

That is because it directly challenges the assumption that CDing is the cause of the problem. I suggest that it is the recent transphobia that is the cause of the problem. Something only 200 odd years old in Australia, a smidge more in the USA and the same is true over much of the world. There are cultures still alive where this issue is not the case. That shows us the answer not just to our imediate problem but to generations of it.


Look...if you want to crusade for Trans-Rights or whatever you want to call it, I say more power to you.
But, I can just about guarantee you that 95% (maybe more) of the members here won't be jumping on your Trans-Activist bandwagon anytime soon.
It's simply not going to happen.

That has no bearing on whether i'm right or not though. Try considering what would make my argument right or wrong. Often massive social changes come from a small number of people considering such statements.


And the ones who aren't volunteering have no "ethical responsibility" to anyone.

How do you figure that? When driving a car we have an ethical responsibility to pedestrians, to other drivers right?

Just because people don't think about it doesn't mean its not there!


Actually I think there is no essential difference between telling people they should not quit dressing, and saying 'nobody should ever dress.' One generalizing opinion is as useless and bullyish as another.

Thats not what i said, i gave a why. If the why is wrong the further conclusion is, if not then not. Basic ethical and moral philosophy.


Your suggestion is flawed, I feel, because it presupposes quite a lot of statements that aren't necessarily valid. It assumes:

a) that CDs have some undefined external 'goal' that must be achieved before any of us should be allowed to be happy with ourselves.

Nope. There exists a recent in most of the world transphobia causing CDs and their families to suffer. If that is reversed then CDs and their families will not suffer from that. Pretty simple really.


b) that there is an undefined but universal 'situation' that needs to be changed.

Nope, it assumes there is a common one that needs to be changed and a 37%-40% attempted suicide rate accross the western world wherever TG figures are obtained shows that is so.


c) that some individual quitting dressing is going to somehow hinder this change from this undefined situation to this undefined goal.

It's a matter of passively adding to inertia versus active eroding of a killing-people problem. A relatively binary situation with degrees.


d) that quitting cross-dressing is never in the best interests of any individual's mental health.

All evidence thus far suggests the only harm to mental health comes from existing in a transphobic society does it not?


e) that even if quitting cross-dressing was in the best interests of someone's mental health, that particular individual should still sacrifice his health in the name of your agenda to move from the the undefined situation to the undefined goal, whether or not it's also his goal, or was ever his goal.

It's not 'my' agenda. The current situation is defined by international statistics a regular pattern of human rights abuses, wrecked families and struggle. This very thread is evidence of the problem. Why would all CDs alive now not be responsible to fixing this real problem?


f) that because you have one thing in common with this individual, he should adopt your agenda, alter his entire life around achieving your goal, and do harm to himself to satisfy your worldview.

Nope. Theres a reason post-modernism isn't used in moral and ethical reasoning.. cause it's bunkum. Either my arguments points are correct and lead to my conclusion or there is an error in them. It's not an argument of rhetoric but of reason you see?


g) that the motivation for cross-dressing is always, universally, based in the physical body rather than the psyche, because it can never be in the best interest of someone's mental health to stop doing it.

The motivation is immaterial. Best interests in a transphobic society must be compared to it in a trans-accepting society and the fact that there will always be new CDs born.


h) that if someone disagrees with any of these assumptions, they are immoral and are guilty of hurting others in the vague future.

Nope. Only if someone agreed with me and then acted contrary anyway would that be so clearly so.


Not all of us accept these presuppositions. I'd be surprised if anyone accepts more than one or two.

But most of them are not crucial to my suggested argument. All thats needed for that is to show that there is not harm to others by attempting to quit or that there is less by attempting to quit. Your overcomplicating unneccessarily the whole notion raising largely immaterial counters that do not disprove the essential provisos and connections. Your not breaking the chain of reasoning that leads to my sggested conclusion.


I could counter-suggest that the harm of asking real, actual people in the here and now, to potentially damage themselves in the name of validating your suggestion's worldview far outweighs any imagined harm to these ethereal 'future CD's,'

Cool point! So you suggest that for some reason exists that there will be no CDs in the future? Really? And that even if they exist just cause we have suffered through societal transphobia and internalised transphobia there is no reason to predict they too will if we are inactive? Really? Cause I really want to see your explanation for the probablity let alone possibility of those! ROFLMAO


and that there is no reason whatsoever to believe it would help them in the first place,

Because of course there's no examples to follow.. oops, women, african americans, australian aboriginals, native americans, gays, every civil rights movement in human history....


I'm also hearing a few things from the tone that suggest ideas that sound like: "two wrongs DO make a right" and "it's acceptable to impose your will on others if you think you know what's better for them more than they do."

Where?


Are these the sort of ethics one learns from Peter "it's acceptable to have sex with animals but wrong to eat them" Singer? If so, I'll do without those ethics.

I did say i disagreed with him on several issues. But Utilitarianism is still a popular school of ethics. What school of Ethics do you prefer? Cause i'm pretty sure whether it's consequentialism to reciprocal ethics to stoicism the same conclusion is going to come from the same provisos.

[Jessica Rabbit]

Sure I can quit. I've quit before, many times, I'm sure I could do it again. LOL

As said before, why would we? Until there is a good reason to quit, I'm not going to be able to stop. I've tried to find the will power in the past, but it keeps drawing me back.

Great question, I love all the responses.

[Kaitlin the cd]

I have tried to quit back when I was 15 but I always ended up doing it again.

[BunnieCashmere]

OMG, I wish this thread would quit.

/drama

PLEASE?!

(Ah crap. I bumped it by begging for it to stop. How stupid is that?!)

[Sammy777]

(Ah crap. I bumped it by begging for it to stop. How stupid is that?!)


Awwww! See what you did! You made it go back to the top again and uh well err ............ c r a p! lol, oh well now we will have to wait some more for it to drift away..


Oh I know! Quick! Someone start a panty thread! :lol2:

It has been at least... what 4 or 5 hours since I've seen one :devil:

[Tamara Croft]

This thread is kaput and those 2 who got it closed, you know who you are... do it again and see what happens next. :Angry3: I will NOT tollerate this crap on this board. You can either take your arguments to PM, or I'll kick you off. Is that clear?