Why cant we "come out"

[johnboy23]

I have been wondering why it is so hard to come out. For me I have only told my fiance and my dad but since then I have been wearing womens shirts (just cotton Vnecks very girly) and capris and bermuda shorts out in public. Every crossdress could start the same way. Start with something small for everyone to see like a girly vneck. I get nothing when doing it. For me it is just the clothes. Are we just afriad of our own reaction? I know when I was in my teens I would make fun of anything not normal but the older I got and the moreI see myself the more I would smile and say hey to anything not normal.

[Ze]

I think you've found the answer to your own question! :D Society both tells us to hate the abnormal things while simultaneously telling us what is normal. Everybody, no matter what "abnormality" they have, is having a hard time expressing it. Like the cultural dilemma with homosexuals, the coming-out process doesn't become easier until society eases up. (I'm not saying LGB people are in the clear, just that they culturally seem to have an easier time than they used to. Still a long way to go, though.)

But yeah...my thoughts on the matter. :)

[Sylvermane]

When I first realized that I couldn't deny this side of myself anymore I confided in a semi-anonymous friend ( <3 online gaming). Her and I talked for hours and she, while not being familiar with the subject in particular offered me a great deal of insight into the difficulties you are describing. She has also been very supportive to me as initially this was literally destroying me from the inside out.

It's a societal limitation. From the time we are born some things are just what they are. Men are men, women are women. Clothing is a primary identifier as far as society is concerned, has always been that way. It's about allowing yourself to be comfortable with what you feel you need to do... not letting the majority decide for you. Some folks just enjoy the clothes and that is great. Others it's deeper, I know for me it's a matter of expressing what I feel on the inside and furthermore a genetic mistake. Regardless of your motivation to dress it doesn't make the coming out part easier. Like any "different" thing be it race, religion, politics you have to do what makes you feel right. Coming out is difficult because it goes against the average social norm.

Just one viewpoint but when she said all that to me as well as... well like I said we talked for hours... that made alot of sense as well as felt like I lost a 2 ton weight from my shoulders.

[Andy66]

I go back and forth between being an LGBT rights activist, and a big fat chicken. :( It depends on who's around. Some people's approval is worth more than others. I really do wish I were braver.

[Ze]

I go back and forth between being an LGBT rights activist, and a big fat chicken. :( It depends on who's around. Some people's approval is worth more than others. I really do wish I were braver.

Awww. :hugs:

In all fairness, though, sometimes there really are moments where it's best to back off or not speak up. Some people can be so irrational in their thinking processes that they'll attempt to hurt you to "prove" their point. That's just not cool. So we, being logical beings, know when to keep our mouths shut and let the babies have their bottles.

So don't beat yourself up about it. :) Sometimes it has a lot more to do with rationality than bravery.

[Andy66]

Aw, thanks Ze. :hugs:

[Karren H]

Ohh please..... if it were just that simple!! Everyones situation is different and there is no magic one size fits all "just be brave and tell everyone" solution.. Most have considerably more to loose than a girl friend.... Or getting your parents pissed off at you... Sure start out small but the first "ohh shit your a freakin pervert" you hit them its game over.. Loose your wife... family.... All your money.... Livelyhood... Ohh Yeah... Think long and hard before going down that path...

[Tracii G]

Hey Karren where have you been?I'm with you on this one.

[eight]

I have to agree with Karren. But at the same time a little at a time would probably be a logical approach.

[Ze]

Um...are we fighting somebody? Aren't we all on the same agreement here? :idontknow: I feel like I just missed something...

[Karren H]

I'm never in agreement and always fighting something or other... Usually monsters under the bed.... but vigorous disagreement isn't fighting...... Fighting is when I drop my gloves and stick on the ice.... Ohhh and I've been over on FaceBook and modding at the evil makeup forum, Tracii! Got kind of quiet so I wandered back... Sigh.. God I'm so weak!! Hahaha.

[Ze]

I'm never in agreement and always fighting something or other... Usually monsters under the bed.... but vigorous disagreement isn't fighting...... Fighting is when I drop my gloves and stick on the ice.... Ohhh and I've been over on FaceBook and modding at the evil makeup forum, Tracii! Got kind of quiet so I wandered back... Sigh.. God I'm so weak!! Hahaha.

Sorry, I meant "fighting" more in the sense of "disagreement." :ner: I couldn't figure out who you were disagreeing with. :doh:

But yeah...those monsters. :itb:

[Cathytg]

I guess that the negative reactions we get from folks are based on fear of some perceived threat. But, really, the base question is probably more like: why are we so reluctant to go out in the company of people we have never seen before and will never see again? Where does that feeling of threat come from?

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Um...are we fighting somebody? Aren't we all on the same agreement here? :idontknow: I feel like I just missed something...

I think people were just saying they agree with Karen as in, "yeah, that's a good point and I like how you worded it" as opposed to saying she was right and someone else was wrong.

[Karren H]

I dare say "going out" is less than and not equal to "coming out". I can walk through a crowded mall enfemme and could care less if anyone doesn't like my hobby but I would rather gouge my eyes out with a mascara wand than walk into my boss's office and show off my new dress! Lol.

[SherriePall]

With Karren on this one. It is much easier to go out and about than it is to come out to certain people whom you have to deal with, especially when earning a living. So, coming out boils down to picking one's battles carefully while fully understanding the consequences of doing so. We may be able to dress somewhat femme while drab most of the time without problems, but we have to be aware of that one time it may cause major fallout.

[Ze]

I think people were just saying they agree with Karen as in, "yeah, that's a good point and I like how you worded it" as opposed to saying she was right and someone else was wrong.

I was actually referring to Karen herself saying:


Ohh please..... if it were just that simple!!

Hence my confusion. I had figured the OP to be more rhetorical than anything else.

[suchacutie]

I'm here to help find out who "I" am. Why do I need to share that with anyone other than my spouse?

Who I am and what I do are private. I'm an only child and a rather private person anyway, so I don't see the lure of spreading around my private thoughts in general. I try not to discuss politics, religion, finance, or interpersonal relations with anyone casually. Why the devil would I tell them that I have a feminine self? It's just none of their business.

tina

[Fab Karen]

You tell people so you can live an open life, not scurrying around as if this is some sickness- now that's each person's decision as to who they decide to tell, it could be a major risk to say to the entire world,"I'm Fred Jones, accountant, and I am a crossdresser"- you tell people who you hope will be understanding. There may be some people you tell who are ignorant bigots & will shun you for it, but if they are so-called friends, you don't need such people in your life anyway.

[sherri52]

Mostly I think it is the embassment given by others. Although we here all agree that it is natural we still don't like the ridicule by others

[trannie T]

Karren says that she would never go into her bosses office and show off her new dress. I would love to do that. But I would not care to go into my bosses office and do the same.
Much of our fear is unfounded. The major reason that I am not very far out of the closet is force of habit. Several people know I dress, several people suspect and I doubt that many really care.

[DianneRoberts]

Karen, you ought to write a book. Hitting the nail on the head again.

I also like that you say
"Honor your country, fear your government! "


I'll say - that the USA is the greatest nation ever, not because of the government, but in spite of it !

[BunnieCashmere]

You tell people so you can live an open life, not scurrying around as if this is some sickness- now that's each person's decision as to who they decide to tell, it could be a major risk to say to the entire world,"I'm Fred Jones, accountant, and I am a crossdresser"- you tell people who you hope will be understanding. There may be some people you tell who are ignorant bigots & will shun you for it, but if they are so-called friends, you don't need such people in your life anyway.

Well said!

[Starling]

Without the government, created by the Constitution and informed by the Declaration of Independence and other great statements of our common will to freedom and democracy, we wouldn't have a nation.

Did the same people who fear the government now, fear it equally when George W. Bush was President? Or is this distrust of government strictly partisan?

I think we must watch our government, and actively participate in the process of choosing our leaders and advocating or opposing policies, to make sure it governs according to our values and principles, but I don't fear it.

No corporation, or church, or labor union, is accountable to all Americans the way our government is. And I vote in every election.

Sometime, I'd even like to vote as myself. There, I'm back on thread.

:love: Lallie

[Starling]

I have no idea why my post formatted so oddly. I tried to edit it, but...well, it got even weirder.

:doh:Lallie

[Frédérique]

I have been wondering why it is so hard to come out. For me I have only told my fiance and my dad but since then I have been wearing womens shirts (just cotton Vnecks very girly) and capris and bermuda shorts out in public. Every crossdress could start the same way. Start with something small for everyone to see like a girly vneck. I get nothing when doing it. For me it is just the clothes. Are we just afriad of our own reaction? I know when I was in my teens I would make fun of anything not normal but the older I got and the moreI see myself the more I would smile and say hey to anything not normal.


It may very well be easier for you to “come out” in South Carolina, since you’re nearer to Europe than us "wheatheads!" I used to live close to the Atlantic myself, so I should know. Am I the only one that thinks geographically around here? I should point out that you’re closer to Bermuda as well, so your shorts (pink, I hope) wouldn’t stick out, but I digress…

I’m definitely not afraid of my own reaction, but I just don’t like to be seen or noticed by anyone, dressed, drab, or anything in-between. I’ll tell ya, johnboy, when I was in my teens (way back in prehistoric times), I didn’t make fun of anything “abnormal” that I saw. I would always stop and think to myself -- “Now, that’s interesting – you can do that!” Nobody tells you these things, you know…


Society both tells us to hate the abnormal things while simultaneously telling us what is normal. Everybody, no matter what "abnormality" they have, is having a hard time expressing it.


Exactly. I’m fortunate that I’ve been isolated from society my whole life, so I never got this hatred of the “abnormal” pounded into my brain. Lucky me. Being an artist, I was already predisposed to being abnormal, right from the get-go, then I folded crossdressing into the soufflé called “me” and kept going. Expressing one’s abnormalities is difficult, true, but it’s what sets you apart from the rest of society. I must say I distrust (and I’m disgusted by) anyone’s definition of “normal”…

[Jamie001]

Right-on Karen, this is really good advice. We are not doing anything illegal or wrong. Women crossdress all of the time.


You tell people so you can live an open life, not scurrying around as if this is some sickness- now that's each person's decision as to who they decide to tell, it could be a major risk to say to the entire world,"I'm Fred Jones, accountant, and I am a crossdresser"- you tell people who you hope will be understanding. There may be some people you tell who are ignorant bigots & will shun you for it, but if they are so-called friends, you don't need such people in your life anyway.

[donnatracey]

Right-on Karen, this is really good advice. We are not doing anything illegal or wrong. Women crossdress all of the time.

Excellent point! Talk about a double standard......:battingeyelashes:

[battybattybats]

Its hard cause we pick up lessons in life unconciously that tell us its wrong. We have to overcome at least a bit of internalised transphobia to be that open.

Fear of social ostracism is one of the strongest fears humans have. We are social animals by nature.

I expect the answer then to getting more CDs out will be a social one that could snowball once getting critical mass with each out CD making it easier for others to do so.

[Kaitlin the cd]

I think everyone has thier own reasons for coming out or not. Mine have to do with the fact that many of my friends would have a hard time dealing with it.

[Jamie001]

If your friends would have a problem dealing with it, then they are not real friends. I made a decision several years ago that real friends will accept me for who I am. Any friends that can't accept me for who I am are simply acquaintances and are not worthy of my friendship. People are friends with alcoholics, people that have committed crimes, people that have cheated on their spouse... What you are doing (Cding) is not illegal. There is no reason why a real friend won't continue to be a real friend. If that don't want to be a friend after you disclose that you are a CD, then they were never a friend to begin with. It is a good way to weed-out the folks that are not really your friends. If you can't be yourself with your friends, then are they really friends???

:2c: Jamie



I think everyone has thier own reasons for coming out or not. Mine have to do with the fact that many of my friends would have a hard time dealing with it.

[TSchapes]

Its hard cause we pick up lessons in life unconciously that tell us its wrong. We have to overcome at least a bit of internalised transphobia to be that open.

Fear of social ostracism is one of the strongest fears humans have. We are social animals by nature.

I expect the answer then to getting more CDs out will be a social one that could snowball once getting critical mass with each out CD making it easier for others to do so.


I'm reading a book called "Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell and he talks about 3 things that will tip an idea over, 1) The law of the few, 2) the stickiness factor and 3) the Power of context.

The first part says that it will take just a few right people in the right place that will start an epidemic of an idea. He breaks these people down into smaller types connectors, mavens and salesmen. Connectors are people that have a lot of "soft ties" or acquaintances. Mavens are people with a lot of knowledge about a particular subject. And, salesman are just that, people that can sell anything. When these three types of people get together on an idea, there's a good chance it will take off.

Stickiness has to do with being memorable, like a slogan or an event that clicks.

Power of context has to do with the when and where an idea takes off.

I'm not here to take this off topic, my point is that it will take a few people and a memorable idea in an environment that will ferment the change. I know this does not seem intuitive. But it will take just a few people to turn the tide in society. It just has to be done the right way...

-Tracy

[Sammy777]

I dare say "going out" is less than and not equal to "coming out".

And I got just 5 words for you: Damn glad to see ya Karren :lol2:

Place has been a bit boring without you around.

Oh and what she said. :D
Going out and being yourself and even finding new friends that are "her's" alone is a lot different then being around your "normal" group of friends and trying to act the same way. Some people will be ok with it, others.... not so much.




Did the same people who fear the government now,
fear it equally when George W. Bush was President?
Or is this distrust of government strictly partisan?

Never have and never will fear the gov't.
Now just plain old hatin'em is another story, :lol2:
And that draft dodgin, coke doing, dumb as a bag of hammers, daddie's boy of an ex-president can kiss my :mooning:


Women crossdress all of the time.
Excellent point! Talk about a double standard......:battingeyelashes:

And here we go again with the women crossdressing argument.
How did that grow out of a "coming out" thread? :doh:


So why don't you guys just stop: http://samantha.arcaco.com/spcover.jpg



I think everyone has thier own reasons for coming out or not. Mine have to do with the fact that many of my friends would have a hard time dealing with it.

You know your friends better then any of us do...
But, don't underestimate them either.

Your best route seems to be telling a female in your group first. They generally are more accepting and seem to have a 6th sense about who else will be accepting.

Overall, Ya -
It's a total crapshoot, but damn if you won't feel a hell of a lot better afterwards.



If your friends would have a problem dealing with it, then they are not real friends.

People are friends with alcoholics, people that have committed crimes, people that have cheated on their spouse... What you are doing (Cding) is not illegal.

That is a pretty black and white way of looking at it.
Accept me or be gone......

You want to know why people are "still friends" with the likes of alcoholics, criminals, cheats, and I guess all the other scum of the earth too right?
Because those people's actions may define them [to you, but not them] and ultimately that is not who they are.
Those are just actions, something totally different then them being something, being who they are. Like a cd'er or redheaded or tall or even English, lol. [j/k]:heehee:

[Cheshire Gummi]

Being an artist, I was already predisposed to being abnormal, right from the get-go, then I folded crossdressing into the soufflé called “me” and kept going.

Can I get the recipe for that soufflé?

Or, better yet, can I just try some of yours?

Anyway, I honestly wish I could be the person to show the world that my brothers and sisters aren't dangerous, Satanic perverts. I don't know if I'll ever be in the position to offer that, but if my guitar and I can finally flourish and represent each other, I might have that chance.

Or maybe I'm being quixotic. I've sung this tune before. I just hope that we can get the chance some day to really show them what we're made of, be it through one, many, or all of us.

[The Gas Man Cometh]

I'm here to help find out who "I" am. Why do I need to share that with anyone other than my spouse?

Who I am and what I do are private. I'm an only child and a rather private person anyway, so I don't see the lure of spreading around my private thoughts in general. I try not to discuss politics, religion, finance, or interpersonal relations with anyone casually. Why the devil would I tell them that I have a feminine self? It's just none of their business.

tina

I suppose that's a personality trait. Privacy. Me, I'm a more public type of person. I'll usually just lay everything on the table and watch real friends step up to accept me for who I am, and chase off people posing as friends.

[victoriamwilliams1]

I dare say "going out" is less than and not equal to "coming out". I can walk through a crowded mall enfemme and could care less if anyone doesn't like my hobby but I would rather gouge my eyes out with a mascara wand than walk into my boss's office and show off my new dress! Lol.

I agree, it is easier fo me to go shoping and be out and about in public for me to come out!

Coming out to family is hard and the results are different for each person. I believe it is the fear of loss that keeps many of us from coming out to our families and for one thing that is mine.

[Chari]

Everyone should be allowed to wear whatever-when ever the clothing they feel comfortable in, but the double standard of dressing has been going on for years! Women and girls have dressed in every conceivable piece of mens attire - pants, suits, hats, shirts, sweaters, Tshirts, jeans, jackets, and even boxer shorts worn on the outside over their tights - & everyone thinks its fashion, cute, and harmless! Let a guy put on a pair of panties - not even with lace or a little makeup & nail polish, and all the women go bonkers, rushing the "confused guy" to a shrink, or calling the police to lock him up because "he has issues"! It's just not fair.

[Sammy777]

1)Everyone should be allowed to wear the clothing they feel comfortable in,

2)Let a guy put on a pair of panties or a little makeup & nail polish,
and all the women go bonkers, It's just not fair.

3)Women and girls have dressed in every conceivable piece of mens attire
& everyone thinks its fashion, cute, and harmless!

FWIW-
I still [and have] spend [for now] most of my time outside being seen as a "guy".

1) Who is stopping you?
I have yet to have the fashion police come barreling down on me flashing their fuschia and plum lights for wearing something "not considered manly enough" :D

2)Want to know the reactions or comments I have gotten so far?
Jack Shit! No pointing stares, No laughing, No torches and pitchforks.
In fact, a few of the girls [GG's] I know even happen to like it.

I have long hair.
I wear 6 earrings [3 a side]and rings, bracelets, necklaces, ect. everyday.
I have long painted nails everyday [And not just clear or black].
I pretty much wear the following everyday: Womens jeans, shorts, socks, underwear, belts and shoes [even heels]. And I mix and match my T-shirts and Tops.

All that on top of the completely shaved body, trimmed brows, ect.
And I have been doing this for the last 10 months or so.

3) You completely overlook the fact that it is ALL womens clothes. And even if it is actual mens ware, no one cares.
Why? Because they are not trying to look or act or be taken for men. Plain and simple.

You want to wear something, then by all means wear it.
Just be man enough to do it while leaving the pads, shapers, girdles, forms, bras, wigs and make-up at home.

There are quite a few, rather proud, "men in dresses" on this forum who are out in public everyday doing just that and they haven't been run out of town yet.
So what's your excuse? :D

PS: Last I checked this was a coming out thread, not a why cant I wear this thread.

[kellycan27]

Everyone should be allowed to wear whatever-when ever the clothing they feel comfortable in, but the double standard of dressing has been going on for years! Women and girls have dressed in every conceivable piece of mens attire - pants, suits, hats, shirts, sweaters, Tshirts, jeans, jackets, and even boxer shorts worn on the outside over their tights - & everyone thinks its fashion, cute, and harmless! Let a guy put on a pair of panties - not even with lace or a little makeup & nail polish, and all the women go bonkers, rushing the "confused guy" to a shrink, or calling the police to lock him up because "he has issues"! It's just not fair.

Bunk... You can wear what you like. How many times have you been "rushed" to a shrink or had the police arrested you because some GG complained?
I assume from some of your other posts that you are out?? What isn't fair is posting scare tactics to bolster your arguement that life is so unfair. It takes balls to be a girl! I assume you still have yours......USE EM!