A question about terminology

[sherri]

I was at my favorite club Saturday night, sitting at a large table with a mixed bag of friends -- gays, lesbians, straights and me, the lone crossdresser. At the gay end of the table they were talking about someone they knew and asked me what the correct term is in referring to an FTM person. It was way too noisy and boozy for me to launch into a lecture about "transgender", which is the term I prefer to use for both MTFs and FTMS, but secretly I was embarrassed to realize I didn't actually know what term(s) FTMs prefer. Can you guys enlighten me? How should I refer to an FTM or a lesbian FTM, and by the way, what pronouns should I use?

[Ze]

Hi sherri! :wave: Thanks for the interest!

Just as anything would go (I think), FtMs use whatever word they feel most comfortable with. A nice new thread (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115300) on this has come up that you might be interested in. It simply shows some of the different labels some of the guys here like to associate with and we discuss about why that is.

So anyway, my basic answer to your question is it seems to be subjective. We guys just use whatever we like best.

One thing I'm pretty certain of, though is that "most" FtM guys wouldn't want to be referred to as a lesbian, which would mean a woman liking another woman. We guys who like women usually refer to ourselves as straight. :) By default, male pronouns are usually preferred, but there sometimes may be FtMs that still prefer a female one. (Perhaps meaning that they're more of a CDer than a transexual, etc.)

But for the person you're talking about specifically, I couldn't really give you an answer for that. My suggestion is always that it's best to ask the person themselves, provided you have some sort of acquaintance with them.

Hope this helped. :)

[Shikyo]

I might be little out of this as I'm a MTF.

Myself, I wouldn't call a lesbian a FTM at all. By stating that the person is a lesbian makes the person female not male. FTM stands for "female to male", which in my eyes would be a person who desires to be male despite having a female body. Which pronoun to use for a FTM, I would use male pronouns unless specifically I was told not to use it with a specific person.

This is my feelings about this matter as being a MTF and I dislike being called by male pronouns myself. I don't see a reason why a FTM would feel any different about this matter but I'm ready to be told something new.

EDIT: Damn...Ze was faster...

[Ze]

EDIT: Damn...Ze was faster...

:smug:

[sherri]

Hi sherri! :wave: Thanks for the interest!
Hi good lookin'. Yw.


Just as anything would go (I think), FtMs use whatever word they feel most comfortable with ... My suggestion is always that it's best to ask the person themselves, provided you have some sort of acquaintance with them ...So anyway, my basic answer to your question is it seems to be subjective. We guys just use whatever we like best.
With all due respect, this doesn't strike me as a very workable answer. You guys need to give us a way to converse about you and with you. Certainly we can honor any individual's preferences, but we can't go around referring to you as "it" until we get to know you well enough to ask, right? :D I mean, for the sake of discourse, y'all need to settle on a little standardization here, babe. :)


A nice new thread (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115300) on this has come up that you might be interested in. It simply shows some of the different labels some of the guys here like to associate with and we discuss about why that is.
I will definitely check it out. Thanks.


One thing I'm pretty certain of, though is that "most" FtM guys wouldn't want to be referred to as a lesbian, which would mean a woman liking another woman. We guys who like women usually refer to ourselves as straight. :)
Now that's interesting, and I'll tell you why. Usually the first thing a gay or lesbian wants to know about me is whether I'm gay or hetero (sometimes they use the word "straight" for hetero, but I have a hard time referring to any of us TGs as straight without cracking up) or bi. If I were to flip the word associations around it would only confuse them, and probably end the conversation. But if y'all prefer switching the meaning it's fine by me, and I'll try to make references accordingly (I'll just think "alternate universe" as a mnemonic device).


By default, male pronouns are usually preferred, but there sometimes may be FtMs that still prefer a female one. (Perhaps meaning that they're more of a CDer than a transexual, etc.)
Unlike most of us MTF CDs, I can't remember the last time I saw a part-time FTM. So I would feel pretty safe using male designations unless told otherwise.


Myself, I wouldn't call a lesbian a FTM at all. By stating that the person is a lesbian makes the person female not male. FTM stands for "female to male", which in my eyes would be a person who desires to be male despite having a female body.
I guess I tend to think of terms of sexual orientation in the context of social discourse, especially within the GLBT community, which ultimately is defined by genitalia. In my own mind I can make the distinction between that and gender orientation. Personally, I don't really care about labels, but I do want to be able to talk about all this with non-TGs without creating more confusion than I solve. But hey, I'll use whatever terms these guys want me to, absolutely.


Which pronoun to use for a FTM, I would use male pronouns unless specifically I was told not to use it with a specific person ... This is my feelings about this matter as being a MTF and I dislike being called by male pronouns myself. I don't see a reason why a FTM would feel any different about this matter but I'm ready to be told something new.When I'm in Sherri mode, it irks me a little bit to be addressed as masculine, but it's so much less important to me than other things that I rarely correct the "offending" party -- unless I think they're being intentionally disparaging.

[sherri52]

As a mtf I would be happy for you to call me girl. I on the other hand would call a ftm guy, I think it covers without gender benders

[Shikyo]

I guess I tend to think of terms of sexual orientation in the context of social discourse, especially within the GLBT community, which ultimately is defined by genitalia. In my own mind I can make the distinction between that and gender orientation. Personally, I don't really care about labels, but I do want to be able to talk about all this with non-TGs without creating more confusion than I solve. But hey, I'll use whatever terms these guys want me to, absolutely.

Labels are meant to work fine with normal people. They just don't really work out with transsexuals at all. Instead of labels it might be just smarter to ask if one is attracted to girls or boys, which would be the only way one cannot make a mistake.

By using the wrong label on someone they might get very pissed about it. So I prefer not to use labels unless I'm generally talking about a group with this kind of sexual orientation or person who himself/herself uses the label in question. So not using labels but clearly saying what they feel sexually attracted would work out a lot better and there will be no chance of getting misunderstood at all.



When I'm in Sherri mode, it irks me a little bit to be addressed as masculine, but it's so much less important to me than other things that I rarely correct the "offending" party -- unless I think they're being intentionally disparaging.

From the way you speak it sounds like you would have a female mode and a masculine mode. In the case for MTF and FTM we have only one "mode" but often, especially in the beginning, we are forced to have two different modes. It's not a choice we have made. So when we are being our true selves we want to be called by the sex we feel we are. I'm not sure if I'll be talking for all of us but if I'm being called a "boy" or any other male pronoun it hurts me. It hurts me a lot(especially after starting to live full time). I'd prefer being called about anything else, besides that. However, it's not like I'd get angry at someone who didn't know about it or anything like that but I'd tell them to use the right pronoun.

[Thornton]

wait...wait...wait....What's a lesbian FTM? That's not even possible...that doesn't make any sense. Are you taking about butch lesbians? Butch lesbians are not FTMs. They're FTFs, or simply Fs, females. If an FTM is into dudes, he's gay. If he's into chicks, he's straight. If he's into both, he's bi. Not that hard.

How do you refer to an FTM. Same way you would refer to any other guy: He, Him, His, Mr., Sir, etc. We're really nothing special.

As for how you'd refer to a "lesbian FTM", I suggest watching season 1 of "The L Word" and really paying attention to the character "Lisa, the Lesbian Man". (Man, that character made absolutely no sense...)

[Ze]

With all due respect, this doesn't strike me as a very workable answer. You guys need to give us a way to converse about you and with you. Certainly we can honor any individual's preferences, but we can't go around referring to you as "it" until we get to know you well enough to ask, right? :D I mean, for the sake of discourse, y'all need to settle on a little standardization here, babe. :)

I know it can be confusing and , but in the end it's not really anything different than what non-CD MtFs go through. Some like to be called "women," some of them "transwomen," etc.

For us guys, for example, I like "transman," but if I can pick on NiCo and Trey a second (when do I not?), they seem partial to the term dMtM (deformed male-to-male). We all label ourselves differently based on our different viewpoints of ourselves.

But don't worry about the pronoun issue. Like I said before, saying "he" is usually a safe bet. Besides that, you'll learn their individual labels with time since it's a secondary issue for you to know. :)


Now that's interesting, and I'll tell you why. Usually the first thing a gay or lesbian wants to know about me is whether I'm gay or hetero (sometimes they use the word "straight" for hetero, but I have a hard time referring to any of us TGs as straight without cracking up) or bi. If I were to flip the word associations around it would only confuse them, and probably end the conversation. But if y'all prefer switching the meaning it's fine by me, and I'll try to make references accordingly (I'll just think "alternate universe" as a mnemonic device).

Yeah, it can be a little weird at first if you're not used to it. But sexual orientation comes down to gender. We identify as men. As such, the orientation vocab bases itself upon that. (If we like other guys, we're gay. If we like women, we're hetero, etc.) So, really, we're not switching the meaning at all. :) We're playing right along with it.


So I would feel pretty safe using male designations unless told otherwise.

Yeah, that's a safe bet. :)

[sherri]

Ok, so getting back to the original question posed by my friends, who simply wanted to know how to correctly refer to an FTM, I guess my answer based on what I've heard so far would be, "I have no freaking idea. Try 'Dude'". :)

[MiraM]

When I am talking to my man, I call him by his name, or Studly :D, whichever fits the situation. If talking to others that know about us and the fact that he is FtM, he refers to himself as a TransMan. For the rest of the people that don't know, and have no need to know, it's He, Him, His, or he is my husband. He is a man, and a female pronoun is never appropriate when refering to him or any other man.

[emoglassesenvy]

Ok, so getting back to the original question posed by my friends, who simply wanted to know how to correctly refer to an FTM, I guess my answer based on what I've heard so far would be, "I have no freaking idea. Try 'Dude'". :)

I think to be on the safe side, if you know that they are an FtM it's probably best to use, like Thornton said, he, his, him, sir, etc. Why? Because they are men...

[celeste26]

How about ignoring the labels altogether and using whatever name they prefer and leave the labeling to the ignorant.

[NiCo]

Most "FtMs" don't even like the term "FtM" which I, personally, find insulting.

Male is all. Male. It's not hard.

Thornton...I agree...lesbians aren't FtM. And the ones who pretend to be, make me glad I'm not FtM tbh.

We are all different I guess...we all have different preferences...

[Felix]

Hi as for me well I definitely don't like getting refered to as female coz I'm not I'm a Transsexual Male, all man here lol!!! So no female pronouns here please ;) As for sexuality I am queer but I still don't want peeps calling me by any female pronouns. I was Lesbian before I came out as Transsexual and even then I prefered to be refered to as mate :) If any Lesbian FtM still don't mind bein called by female pronouns then for me and no disrespect intended they are not in my eyes transsexual but probably on the transgender spectrum leaning towards male. xx Felix :hugs:

[sherri]

How about ignoring the labels altogether and using whatever name they prefer and leave the labeling to the ignorant.wow, thanks

and now, let me just get on up outta here

[Kieron Andrew]

Ok, so getting back to the original question posed by my friends, who simply wanted to know how to correctly refer to an FTM, I guess my answer based on what I've heard so far would be, "I have no freaking idea. Try 'Dude'". :)
Dude definitely works, I would go with what the individual prefers though, ie ask them....because we are all different, for example, i myself do not mind transguy, ftm, transman, man or guy...as long as get called he and him i don't care much for labels...i've always been very proud of my trans status and embrace it...whereas some prefer not to

[NiCo]

i've always been very proud of my trans status and embrace it...

Why are you proud though? I'm not, for the simple fact...this status has followed me about continuously since i came out, caused me more bother than it's worth and made me unhappy, suicidal, angry and in general, depressed?

Mean, yeah...it's made me who i am...it's made me more accepting...however! It's made me far more critical also…yeah I know the trans thing is apart of me whether I like it or not…it still doesn’t really make me proud, I’m embarrassed about it [mainly due to the way trans people are portrayed on TV and that, cause it’s there to make us look bad, hence the negative reactions] and I can’t see why anyone would be proud of it…

I have always wondered this, so if you can answer that for me...in a PM or here, whatever...

[I’m trying to be more accepting]

[Kieron Andrew]

Why are you proud though? I'm not, for the simple fact...this status has followed me about continuously since i came out, caused me more bother than it's worth and made me unhappy, suicidal, angry and in general, depressed?

Mean, yeah...it's made me who i am...it's made me more accepting...however! It's made me far more critical also…yeah I know the trans thing is apart of me whether I like it or not…it still doesn’t really make me proud, I’m embarrassed about it [mainly due to the way trans people are portrayed on TV and that, cause it’s there to make us look bad, hence the negative reactions] and I can’t see why anyone would be proud of it…

I have always wondered this, so if you can answer that for me...in a PM or here, whatever...

[I’m trying to be more accepting]

Hi Nico,

It's a hard one to put it to words but i'll try...(you know how some things you just can't explain but they just are)

I believe that being born in the wrong shell has allow me to have an insight into the female world and intuition that most genetic men don't get the privilege of, i believe that although i was born male with a birth defect, but bought up in the female role it has armed me to be a better man...one better than some of the men i have previously dated and even my own father...I dunno, now that I am full time and living my male life as i should have, reflecting back on the female life i HAD to live, one genetic men don't get the chance to experience, it has armed me with experiences that I have used to help me be a better man, like i said a hard one to answer really....I hope this helps you understand a little of how i feel proud...I will say i didn't always feel that way when I was finding myself...

(sorry if this makes no sense what so ever, i know what i mean but its a hard one to explain to others)

My partner has just said she would like to add ....'The genetic men I have dated, none have understood me the way that Kieron does, I believe this comes from having been bought up in the female role and having an understanding of the female mind....example:- sometimes he can tell what I'm thinking just by my facial expressions and body language, as a genetic female I am very proud to be with him as a Transman, as there is so much about him that is so much more male and gentlemanly than those genetic men I previously dated'...in fact she searched out a transman to date :heehee:

[NiCo]

I believe that being born in the wrong shell has allow me to have an insight into the female world and intuition that most genetic men don't get the privilege of, i believe that although i was born male with a birth defect, but bought up in the female role it has armed me to be a better man...one better than some of the men i have previously dated and even my own father...I dunno, now that I am full time and living my male life as i should have, reflecting back on the female life i HAD to live, one genetic men don't get the chance to experience, it has armed me with experiences that I have used to help me be a better man, like i said a hard one to answer really....I hope this helps you understand a little of how i feel proud...I will say i didn't always feel that way when I was finding myself... :

Yeah that does make sense. I respect lassies cause I know how hard they get it sometimes [I am also cautious cause they can be just as nasty lol] but aye, that does sum much of it up really.

And I totally know what it’s like feeling something, having an idea but not knowing how to express it.


My partner has just said she would like to add ....'The genetic men I have dated, none have understood me the way that Kieron does, I believe this comes from having been bought up in the female role and having an understanding of the female mind....example:- sometimes he can tell what I'm thinking just by my facial expressions and body language, as a genetic female I am very proud to be with him as a Transman, as there is so much about him that is so much more male and gentlemanly than those genetic men I previously dated'...in fact she searched out a transman to date :heehee:

Firstly. As soon as I found out my ex had hunted specifically for a transman, it was the icing on the cake and I dumped her. I wouldn’t want to be hunted out cause of a deformity. But hey! Your partner has probably [like most lassies] had a load of crap off guys and is aware of how we understand females and are more gentle when it comes to emotions and expectations and stuff.

Another reason why lassies hunt out trans guys is cause…I quote… “transmen are highly familiar with the female anatomy” [giggle giggle] personally, I think they have been reading too many books :heehee: ;)

[Sorry Sherri for taking this off topic lol]

[Kieron Andrew]

Firstly. As soon as I found out my ex had hunted specifically for a transman, it was the icing on the cake and I dumped her. I wouldn’t want to be hunted out cause of a deformity. But hey! Your partner has probably [like most lassies] had a load of crap off guys and is aware of how we understand females and are more gentle when it comes to emotions and expectations and stuff.

Another reason why lassies hunt out trans guys is cause…I quote… “transmen are highly familiar with the female anatomy” [giggle giggle] personally, I think they have been reading too many books :heehee: ;)
My girl didn't head hunt me...i hunted her ;) in fact she was in a messy break up and i waited *aint I a good boy :heehee:*....She ID's as a Queer Femme and has said on more than one occasion she has always found Transguys attractive, I was just the lucky man to get with her

[Felix]

Sounds like you're exceptionally lucky Kieron wow a queer fem fantastic dude :D

As for me I am proud of who I am with all its positives and negatives. I am proud of what I achieved in the female role I was brought up in even though I struggled because I was in the wrong body. Now I am proud of being me and of being a transsexual coz that is who I am. I don't like labels but hey sometimes it helps others to define and understand who I am then thats ok too. I have totally embraced who I am and what I am other wise I can not move forward, I would just be stuck in time and space going now where.

I understand how coming out has caused you grief in many ways Nico but eventually things should even out for you when all the major changes take place. I have been in the presence of many matured for want of a better word Trans Men and you would never know that they have ever been female in their former lives but thats what years of 'T' does to you. We have only been on 'T' a short time so for us we have to be patient and go with the flow to some extent. If I had a magic wand and could change instantly believe me I would but I aint so I have to be patient and grow through this whole process learning as I go along. Just like when I was growing up before. It's a huge learning curve, virtcal in many respects but thats what we have to do at the end of the day if we are to see it through and see ourselves mature into matured males. :D Felix

[NiCo]

Dude, I pass 100% believe it or not. I haven't had ANYONE call me anything female since my second injection. It's all the "general" life %^&$, especially family and lack of friends in this area. However, I was grieved for a few days about my dad and his $%^&£ wife but, I grieved the loss of my three siblings and mother and it took me 2 years to "get over it". It seems to have taken much less to begin to "get over" losing my dad etc. Cause I just [discard?] them instantly and think "f*** them, I hope they die of AIDS for this...I hope they hurt in life more than they have made me hurt" and it seems to work for me. Yes that’s a very angry response [I don’t actually tell them I hope they die lol, I just think it] so in real, it’s harmless [opinion]. I dunno…It makes me feel better. As long as they don’t find out my thoughts haha.

As well as other crap...

Anyway! Back on topic. I’m not proud, and don’t think I ever will be. When I talk about my past, I talk about it in 3rd person cause that wasn’t me. I see myself now that I’ve just woke up from a coma and I’m learning everything from scratch. Loads of people have said not to throw away my past because of this that the next, not bothered…it’s my way of surviving I guess. Cause the more I think about “her” past, the more I feel cheated, failed and I get furious to the point I could probably do damage. So to save myself from that, I have convinced myself that I was in a coma this long and “she” died during that horrible accident we had, and I received a few “injuries”. Makes me cope.

I DEFFO can see why people would be proud though and I am happy that you guys can just “accept it” cause I really can’t, it just causes distress and makes me feel so upset that my life has been snatched from me because of a “mistake”. I guess I need some hardcore counselling [which I asked for and was actually REFUSED lol].

Thanks for clearing that up for me guys, I asked cause, as you can see, I really can’t understand how anyone would be proud but by your explanations/ views it’s easy now to see why.

[Elric]

I believe that being born in the wrong shell has allow me to have an insight into the female world and intuition that most genetic men don't get the privilege of

Please do not take this tongue in cheek comment as a slight but... I never have understood women and do not feel I ever will.

Elric

To the OP: male pronouns work nicely.

[DemonicDaughter]

Because I have to put my two cents in...

Most people in the GLBT community will ask your sexual orientation because most feel:

- if you are a gay man dressing as a woman, you are a Drag Queen and have no qualms claiming that manhood. Unlike crossdressers, the don't attempt to "pass". They don't attempt to make anyone believe they are anything more than a Drag Queen. And unlike Transpeople, Drag Queens don't feel they are in the wrong body. They enjoy performing as women and creating an illusion but don't identify as a woman, just love being "fabulous!" :heehee:

- if you are a lesbian, you identify as a WOMAN who likes women (not a MTF crossdresser, not a FTM, just a WOMAN).

- if you are a Transwoman that likes women, you are a lesbian. If you are a Transwoman that likes men, you are straight. Same is true for Transmen only visa versa (being a gay man who if you like men or straight if you like women).

Transpeople are NOT "pretending" to be a different gender. They are not "sometimes" male or female. They ARE male OR female. Not both. That seems to be something crossdressers cling to (not saying this is bad just that its not how most Transpeople feel). And THAT is why so many in the gay community question a crossdressers sexuality because you present as a woman but don't feel you are one.

If you are talking about a Transman, the pronoun is "he". If you are talking about a FtM CROSSDRESSER then you refer to them as "he" while dressed as a man.

In other words, refer to someone as they wish to present themselves because that's obviously how they identify.

Simple. :D