My world - and mine alone! ?

[Stephanie Miller]

In an earlier thread I brought up the effects of a close friend starting her transition and its effects on people. Besides the answers on the post itself, I received many e-mails with others insight as they saw it.
Those responses prompted this thread.
All I can base my thoughts on are personal observations and incoming communications such as the e-mails. I would like to see how everyone else sees it too. What "it" is just happens to be actions and thought patterns of those who are CD/TS/TG. Does our "group" show a higher degree of ME FIRST!
I understand the need of individuals to pursue their own path in life - BUT how far do we go. How much do we allow others to just live with our actions because we like it or need it, and if others are just not open minded enough to accept it - then tough. I'm doing it anyway. Where does it say in the marriage certificate that after we realize being married isn't the "fix" we thought it would be for our desire to CD, then till death do us part becomes till you can't live with the new me. Is it fair for our kids to be teased at school because "your daddy's a sissy so you must be one too." Why do we feel our choice of lifestyle - because we are comfortable with it or we need to become our true selves - comes first. It shouldn't matter how it effects others. Should it? Are we being selfish? Or are others just not accepting fast enough the new age and it really is their problem not ours? Is there a more appropriate way for us to help the rest of the world with learning what CD/TS/TG is all about rather than shock and awe? Are we invading others "space" by breaking with societal customary dress style? Or are they impeding our freedom to be who we want?
If you want to flame this post - then take out your anger somewhere else. I purposely did not direct this post one way or another. Just looking for good clean dialog between us. There is too much grey area here to be a solid right or wrong.

[Summer]

My wife married me knowing I was a dresser. I'm always dressed, but the question is how do we handle ourselves. We have 2 wonderful girls who grew up knowing their dad was also a mom.
How do I handle it? Simple, tone down my dress so I am more acceptable in public and personal life.

As to your other thread, I think you handle your life well, you regard your family first. This is most important for you to be a success as a person. You can see for yourself when you look in the mirror and see your lovely smile.
Best of everything to you and yours.
Summer:love:

[gennee]

Just like no two people are alike, everyone has to do what's best for them. It's not being selfish if you seeks what's best for them. Yes, when you do something out of the norm people will react in different ways. However no one can live your life either.

Our journeys are different but nevertheless we're on one. Each of us travels a different road and there will be those times where we'll have to go all by ourselves. I went through my most difficult trek recently but in the end I came back a more contented individual.

Gennee
:)

[sherri52]

Stephanie you are right. There is a very gray area here. We must be ourselves, yet , on the other hand we have to care for those around us. For me family always came first. I have eight children and all of them know I dress. Only two have seen. I grew up in a world where cd'ing was a definite no-no, so there wasn,t much going out then. Dressing was hidden from most and shown to some. I have friends that have never seen and I have dressed for certain people that I hardly knew. It isn't just cd'ing that's a gray area. Many things fit in this area. Smoking, drinking, being at a table with or without a shirt. We can't control these factors but it is up to us to decide on th cd'ing.

[Stephanie Miller]

Gennee,
I don't want to pick sides... so rest assured I will play devils advocate to all :devil:

Per your post I can understand someone following their own path if there is knowone else involved. But what if you want a different path AFTER you made commitments of marriage or kids or close "straight" friends. Remember society has had a leg in this for a long time now on how other non CD/TS/TG educated people feel/believe and act.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It is a fair minded question..

one thought i have about it is why don't hunter's have to answer that question? why don't golfers have to answer it? musicians?

the "norm" in society is just that...it's existence implies a "not" norm....where the line gets blurry is when people start beleiving that the "not" norm is bad or wrong...what is wrong with me? i was born as me and only i can live my own life...it's certainly true that in my attempts to feel like a "normal" person, i have implicated others, and it's still not settled whether it was for better or worse...my kids never could have existed if not for my attempts to be "normal" would it be better for them not to exist??

...the reason i tried to be normal was because i feared it was wrong to be not normal or that others would perceive me as bad....how sad this is...

so my answer is that it's not about me first...it's just living life and although it's pretty rare and out of the box as far as problems go...it's just one of many many many things that we all deal with all the time...

[Stephanie Miller]

Well Kaitlyn I can help you with a little of your post..
Why don't hunters? Probably because a majority of the population eat meat so there is some form of understanding of why there is a need to aquire it.
Why don't musicians? Without having the exact number in front of me I feel safe to say more than 90% of the world accepts music, and their stage theatrics already. So there is no need to be ashamed of them. ( for the most part.
And golf? Oh pleez. Is it an acceptable part of our society? Yes, I would venture golf is acceptable. So really, no explaining is needed for that action. BUT..... let Tiger walk to the first tee in a cute crop top and skort .. well now There going to be some 'splainin to do Lucy!
Societal acceptance. There is more today than yesteryear - but are we pushing it down peoples throat to fast just to please ourselves?

[Summer]

Stephanie,
The answer to your second question is simple, you would just be selfish. After you make a bargain you don't go back, unless you totally in-compatible.
Summer

[Tina B.]

A question for you. If no one steps forward and challenges the "Norm" then how does a movement go forward. If not for Civil rights leaders, where would Blacks be today? If not for Stonewall where would the Gay movement be? Society will only except change if it is made to except it, and that only happens one way. Someone always has to pay, unfortunately it could be the cross dresser, or there loved ones. Just be thankful there are those brave enough to pay the price for all of us, so maybe in 40 or 50 years, young CD's won't know how bad it was back in the good old days.
When I started trying to find out why I was so different, there was no information out there. Websters, didn't even list Transvestite in there dictionary, and the rest of the TG language didn't exist either. Then A guy had a sex change, and it made headlines, putting it in everyones face, I feel I have always owed Christine Jorgensen a huge thank you for coming out and letting a young teen he wasn't all alone.
Tina

[AKAMichelle]

This question depending upon your perspective can be answered different ways. So I will attempt to answer all the way around the question.

1) I think it is wrong for a anybody to be selfish and spend money, time and energy on anything which distracts from the others in the family. This can be going to play golf every weekend on Saturday and watching football all day on Sunday. What about the responsibilties to your wife and children? Cd'ers are no different from the rest of society except their interest in Cd'ing. You make a commitment in marriage to love, honor and cherish. Even though it doesn't say the marriage vows imply support. I think the greatest way to show love and support to your family is by spending time with them. Putting them first in your time allocation.

2) This is the other side of the coin. While a cd'er doesn't have the right to be selfish and all about me, they do have the right to be respected by their spouse. That support can come in a don't ask - don't tell system all the way to full acceptance. Many times as in my own life, my wife knows and wants nothing to do with it. My wife goes further to ridicule cd'ers and make sure to bring up any news stories about cd'ing in the most negative way. That to me is terrible, because their is a lack of respect for the other party. Cd'ers have feelings even if a spouse doesn't understand them. Lack of understanding doesn't mean that you should belittle someone else. That type of non-acceptance does lead to that selfish thinking which ultimately will doom a marriage.

Marriage is a 2 way street which requires both parties to work together. The marriage is only as good as the weakest link. Couples should build each other up instead of being all about themselves.

[Summer]

Michelle,
I'm very sorry for your situation, your wife is just be cruel and selfish.
That is the other side of the table. Stand up for your self and tell her to keep here opinions to her self.
Summer

[kellycan27]

Michelle,
I'm very sorry for your situation, your wife is just be cruel and selfish.
That is the other side of the table. Stand up for your self and tell her to keep here opinions to her self.
Summer

Cross dressing isn't something that everyone can live with. It might not matter how "educated" someone is on the subject, if they are not comfortable with it.. they aren't comfortable with it. Does your right to crossdress trump their right to be comfortable? Even if they totally understand the concept... it doesn't mean that they are going to accept it. I see where a lot of crossdressers don't understand this. They feel that because this is something that is ingrained in them, their SO be understanding and accepting. Nice thought, but not very realistic. If someone is taking jabs at you or cross dressing in general..doesn't that tell you something? They obviously don't like it. The reasons seem to be of no consequence... You can lead a horse to water. The don't ask don't tell senerio might work for the crossderesser, but for the SO who even though doesn't see it.. still knows that it exists. How does this help them?
if you went into the relationship.. hiding the facts, you are truly selfish, and thowing innocent children into the mix who might suffer at the break up of the family.. is just wrong.

[Summer]

It's simple, his wife doesn't have to be rude. All I ask is she be civil.
Summer

[sterling12]

I am also a President of a Tri-Ess Chapter, and I guess because my particular chapter is very liberal and accepting; we have discussed and thought about this situation many times.

Most outsiders don't know it, but from personal experience I believe that a much higher percentage of gals who join support groups eventually transition. Maybe joining The Group was a transition in and of itself. Then The Next Step was a lot less of a jump. Or they realized that once out, "this is the real me and this is what I want."

Anyway, if I was going to talk about "differences" between CD Gals and TS Gals, this is the only "glaring" difference I see. For many, (but not all) TS Gals, family, friends, public opinion, just about no one or no thing is going to stop them from doing what they believe is right for them. For many of them, they believe that the whole situation has become so dire that they will surely be destroyed if they don't take "The Big Step."

Often, with CD Gals you will hear stories that are just the opposite. "You know, when I was eighteen, had things been different, had my family been more accepting, if I hadn't married and had kids, I might have done something and gone the same route as those TS Gurls."

So there is "Gray Area." But, there often seems to be this fundamental difference between The Two "Breeds." I perceive that we are all transgendered, just that some of us are a lot more transgendered than others! Maybe that's why we talk about a "spectrum."

I didn't get a chance to reply to The Other Thread, but I'll kind of lump the two together for right now. A very good friend, and part of my group, just did the same thing about 5 months ago. It has been ongoing Hell with the family, but she's a very positive thinker. By her reasoning, she has raised her step kids, been a good spouse, and would continue to be one, but now it's time for C*****.

Will her Transition "out me?" I don't think so, and I don't care. I signed as a witness for her Court Ordered Name Change and now I guess it's Public Record. If anyone cared to ask, I would simply reply: "I know a lot of unique people, C*****, is a friend." "The fact that she's changing her sex doesn't change our friendship." I think it would be a huge leap for anyone to ASSUME that somehow my friendship also inferred that I was transgendered. These days, if you really care to find out, I think you will find most everyone has some link to a TG Person, be it family, or acquaintance, or whatever. Simply put, most people are oblivious to just about everything, their attention span is short, and their powers of deduction are limited to speculating about whom will be thrown off The Island this week.

I wouldn't sweat it!

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Ralph]

Stephanie,

Great topic, and one that is sure to raise a lot of hackles. In the recent past I can't count how many times I've seen comments like "If they were really my friends they would accept me as I am", or people who focussed entirely on how well the family accomodates their need to dress up. "If you/he/she/they really loved me" always raises a red flag for me, because that coin always has another side to it - if YOU really loved THEM you wouldn't make such demands on what they should and shouldn't accept. The phrase simply does not belong in any dialogue between two people who really do love one another.

I suspect that a lot of us - and I do this myself sometimes - forget to walk a mile in the other person's pumps before criticizing.

For example, with the acceptance thing... I have said before, it took me a good 20 years to accept who I am and what I am, and along with that figure out what I am not. I know I'm not alone in the length of time it took me to come to grips with myself. If it took me that long, how dare I expect a spouse to make the same amount of progress in a few days/weeks/months? Or more distant family members and friends who don't even have the extra insight gained by living with me? In addition, I am able to love friends who have qualities I think are unsettling, or downright obnoxious. They don't demand "Love me, love my tendency to forward stupid emails every time I see them", or "If you really loved me, you would love going to tractor pulls with me." In the same way, why can't I let them love me even if there's no chance in hell they could ever understand my need to wear dresses?

Probably straying off the point you wanted to make, so I'll just stop now.

[Vicky_Scot]

Of course crossdressers are selfish. We have a uncontrolable urge to dress in womans clothes, wear make up etc.

What we have to do is learn to control that urge so we can function as a human being and have families, relationships etc.

If you let the urge control your life instead of you controling it then its downhill all the way.

Xx Vicky xX

[shannonFL]

“How do I balance my need for genuine self-expression against the fair consideration owed to loved ones sharing my life?”

“To what extent have I been openly accountable to others for the loss of trust created by my failure to disclose the full extent of my lifelong gender conflict?”

“How do I find the courage and entitlement to embrace my authentic Self, in the face of all the real and imagined consequences”?

“What am I willing to give in my effort to repair damaged trust without sacrificing my claim to wholeness and integrity?”

“How, despite my personal suffering and that potentially inflicted on others as a result of my gender conflict, do I measure the worth of the positive contributions I have made to my family, friends and colleagues?”

“If I do move forward with gender transition, what changes are necessary for me to fulfill my ongoing commitment to children and others who have relied on me”?



.
“…We spend our whole lives feeling awful about who we are…feeling a need to apologize to humanity for breaking the most basic social norm. Then when it comes time to empower ourselves and rise above every social teaching that has metastasized from society to our consciousness, we feel a great ache in our solar plexus – guilt. And ironically enough, the people who want to block us realize this better than we do, and they dig in for battle, throwing back at us our greatest fear…”How can you be so selfish???!!!” I say, how can we be so SELF-LESS!! We have spent a whole life trying to ease the sense of comfort in others by sacrificing our entire identity. If you don’t believe you are justified in being yourself, why should anyone else?”

“The pitfall…is that the selfishness/self-esteem balance tends to be a floodgate instead of a rheostat. In the past, I had built up tremendous resentment toward the world over not being able to be myself. The funny part is that the world had no idea that I was not being myself…the joke was on me. I created 30 years of negative energy…this was my own baggage that wasn’t going to fit into my overhead compartment on my new journey. The party was over…the pity party. I did this awkwardly, as I think many of us do. In order to mount the courage to overthrow this wave of guilt, it is easy for us to call upon the natural power of this negative energy…resentment and anger…which gives birth to self-entitlement, i.e., not me, not me…becomes me, me, me. I think we are truly entitled to a period of me, me, me as we go through transition…with one very important caveat…intent has to be in the right place. To fine tune that balance is the key to finding grace in gaining the respect of others in your transition…solving a problem requires different thinking than the mind set that created it. So keep your minds open, trust your intuition, and the rest will fall into place.”

Not my own words, but I refer to them once in a while...

[Stephanie Miller]

Good Lord am I glad I finally ask this. I'm geetting wonderful feedback. Thank you all.
It kind of brings back memories of the old Christmas movie " A Wonderful Life" where one really doesn't realize how many or how we really effect someones life. What I have not heard from are the GG's. Can I get a little perspective from someone who doesn't "live it" yet lives with it?

[Rhonda Jean]

“How do I balance my need for genuine self-expression against the fair consideration owed to loved ones sharing my life?”

“To what extent have I been openly accountable to others for the loss of trust created by my failure to disclose the full extent of my lifelong gender conflict?”

“How do I find the courage and entitlement to embrace my authentic Self, in the face of all the real and imagined consequences”?

“What am I willing to give in my effort to repair damaged trust without sacrificing my claim to wholeness and integrity?”

“How, despite my personal suffering and that potentially inflicted on others as a result of my gender conflict, do I measure the worth of the positive contributions I have made to my family, friends and colleagues?”

“If I do move forward with gender transition, what changes are necessary for me to fulfill my ongoing commitment to children and others who have relied on me”?



.
“…We spend our whole lives feeling awful about who we are…feeling a need to apologize to humanity for breaking the most basic social norm. Then when it comes time to empower ourselves and rise above every social teaching that has metastasized from society to our consciousness, we feel a great ache in our solar plexus – guilt. And ironically enough, the people who want to block us realize this better than we do, and they dig in for battle, throwing back at us our greatest fear…”How can you be so selfish???!!!” I say, how can we be so SELF-LESS!! We have spent a whole life trying to ease the sense of comfort in others by sacrificing our entire identity. If you don’t believe you are justified in being yourself, why should anyone else?”

“The pitfall…is that the selfishness/self-esteem balance tends to be a floodgate instead of a rheostat. In the past, I had built up tremendous resentment toward the world over not being able to be myself. The funny part is that the world had no idea that I was not being myself…the joke was on me. I created 30 years of negative energy…this was my own baggage that wasn’t going to fit into my overhead compartment on my new journey. The party was over…the pity party. I did this awkwardly, as I think many of us do. In order to mount the courage to overthrow this wave of guilt, it is easy for us to call upon the natural power of this negative energy…resentment and anger…which gives birth to self-entitlement, i.e., not me, not me…becomes me, me, me. I think we are truly entitled to a period of me, me, me as we go through transition…with one very important caveat…intent has to be in the right place. To fine tune that balance is the key to finding grace in gaining the respect of others in your transition…solving a problem requires different thinking than the mind set that created it. So keep your minds open, trust your intuition, and the rest will fall into place.”

Not my own words, but I refer to them once in a while...

This is tremendously insightful. So well put that I think it could describe EITHER side in a relationship that has reached a breaking point. I think this is exactly the point my ex was at when she just couldn't take living with me anymore. "A floodgate and not a rheostat"... very good! I couldn't imagine this person who'd displayed a lifetime of selflessness becoming so immediately entirely selfish. Guess this stuff can go both ways. The other side gets no warning that the floodgates are opening. That was me. Happily wading in a quiet stream that became a raging torrent.

[Stephenie]

I am going though these questions in my life right now.

How can I be me and still take care of my responsabilities at home. Since my wife will not accept dressing then anything further is also out. Yet, if I don't do something then the frustrations biuld and then I'm not happy and she's not happy which just makes it worse.

I have kids, grown and young, Step and Adopted, some might accept some would not. I don't want to put them through all the crap at school but, I can be the good parent I want to be if I am aways hiding a part of my (a big part of who I am)

SO now I am trying to decide what and how to do something that , while not prefect for all, will do what can be done for all.


Stephenie

[Wen4cd]

This is a hairy subject here. It's one of those things where it's very tempting to apply your own issues onto others, when it's individually diverse.

I'll be the only thing I can be with this subject -selfish- and speak only of me, because it would be impossible to do otherwise with this word.

I try to fight selfishness in me. Selfishness is a touchy subject. It's going to be a LONG post! Because I am so selfish.



Ever do shadow-self work? Active imagination? It's kind of like 'at-home' psychoanalysis. In me, this might be a case for that. :D


I'll do this: I imagine I'm out dressed in public, trying to live as a woman, be 'full-time,' etc... (I don't consciously wish this, but I explore it because it is a common theme, and I also want to Know what goes on in my head.)

Then I imagine someone seeing me, knowing of me, the judgmental voice of 'society' (one facet of the shadow-self,) some person who sees me and heartily disapproves. I think we all have figures like this who control our actions from within.

If I study the utterances of this shadow-person, it's surprising. He is not saying "hey, there goes a damn freak, I wanna outcast it." He is not going "lol, hella ghey homoslexual right there, BASH it!" This is what the stereotype expects, but is not at all the case for me.

What this dark figure, this imagined 'judge' from my unconscious, is saying when he sees the imagined FT dressed me, is almost just what you're suggesting in your OP. He's saying "Wow, there goes the most self-absorbed jerk I've seen all day. I sure hope he doesn't expect me to further masturbate his ego by interacting with him. I abhor pride and selfishness, and I am seeing a literal walking personification of it and I disapprove."

Now, that's a moderately deep, dark example of my unconscious shadow-self process. It's not reality, and if it's kept near consciousness it won't be as likely to be projected, but the most dangerous thing, from all accounts, is to pretend it isn't there. It's also not the only figure speaking or opining on the subject. There is a feminine (anima-self) connection that is saying a wholly different thing. She's saying "Ooh, look at the poor dear, like a little puppy desperately needing to be loved and attended to. Coming out like this in public is such an obvious statement of need, this person needs friends, love, and validation! It's not selfish want at all, it's need. I have to help. I have to take care of that person and make it all better!"

Notice all this judgment is pointed at myself, imagined as a public full-time TG. If I don't try to keep this shadow voice conscious, it will be projected onto other public, full-time TG's, which would be a distortion. Everything unconscious is projected.

(And also notice that the feminine anima-self still sees a 'problem' with the hypothetical image of me full-timing. She doesn't see it as selfish, but the opposite, a desperate need for something missing, neither figure sees a 'contented person living normally' when they look at the imagined image of me full-timing. This is a crucial nugget to find in this confusion, and is probably the 'answer' to why I personally don't have a desire to full-time dress.

There's also a seldom-seen 'higher-self" figure who occasionally pipes in with what sounds like 'wisdom.' I'm trying to locate that figure more and more often.

I usually like to listen to the anima figure in these particular examples, because she's "nicer" in her way, and sees good in people rather than bad. But I'm leaving her input and the elusive 'higher self' wizardly figure out of question for now, only because the topic is 'selfishness,' and that's the word the shadow uses. Focusing on the opposite doesn't silence him; he exists for a purpose.)

What this tells me about myself, which I can use to grow, is that I should try to fight selfishness in myself as a general rule in and out of my dressing, because unconscious self-sabotage will happen if I perceive myself to be selfish, and it can't be fooled with excuses I tell myself consciously. It's interesting to note that no matter how outlandish the image of me dressed in public is, it's only the "selfishness" my shadow-self reacts to, there is never talk of perversion, sickness, or labels of sexual preference. I think that means they are non-issues to me in what's important to me in my dressing.

It also reveals an element of envy, discontent that others do 'whatever they want,' while I hold myself back from a lot of things for fear of being selfish. So then there is a yearning to have a healthy level of self-satisfaction as well, or else bitterness will arise. Then I resolve not to 'delete selfishness in me' but to 'curb selfishness" To control, not to eradicate. (Without salt, potato chips taste like crap, too much salt, potato chips taste like salty crap, but with just enough salt, it resonates with the potatoes and becomes magically delicious.)

It's also interesting and telling to note the setting of this imagined interaction. This occurance happens on a 'mainstream' psychic plane in a perceived world where people are coming and going to work, shopping for groceries (not the mall, but the supermarket), basically dealing with mundane life, and this shadow-self--judge is on his way to his day-job, putting in his work time. Something tells me this same shadow figure would be absolutely fine and supporting of the same eccentric image of me dressed, in public even, at a leisurely setting, shopping in the mall with friends, out at a dance club, even in public parks. He doesn't see it as perverse or wrong on the surface, but only selfishly out of place. He only judges the image of me dressed as selfish in: work settings, family settings, or otherwise mundane settings. What does this mean? He thinks it's unfair only to be selfish when you're around others who you have to 'work' with? He thinks cross-dressing is, at it's core, superficial leisure, because gender is but a symbolic construct anyway? Ah, it's another place to delve, and it's lunch time.

The last thing I think I can glean from the exercise is that, whenever dealing with others, especially in the TG world, to try silence the shadow, and listen more to the anima-self. The shadow is essentially the voice of self-control, he's there to keep strict on me, not others. Affect and relationships are the domain of the anima, so she gets a bigger say on how my total being deals with others, when it comes back to reality. When I balance her affect towards others and love of me, with the healthier parts of the shadow's self-criticism, this is when all figures sort of begin to merge into the higher-self voice.

Slow day at work, heehee.

[Sally2005]

It is possible to look at it this way. Most CDers have been hiding for most of their lives, basically taking a back seat, trying to fit in to society, doing what their parents and friends expected...then they suffer privately and finally discover they are normal and begin to accept themselves. So an apparent sudden change in ones attitude or activities can seem selfish when in fact it was the 'world' that was selfish in the past and now they need some me time.

The complication comes when you take on other roles, like father, spouse, neighbor... your activiites can impact these people. So my personal view is, unless you are going to make a major life transition yourself, it is best to reduce the impact to the other aspects of your life because the people who made the choice to be friends with you in the various roles did so without knowing this part of who you are. So depending on how the news will impact their lives you should consider what will happen to them.

The real issue though is for the people who had no choice, like your kids...you have a responsibility to keep them safe...so unless you can work it in a way that benefits them your CDing may be better to shelter from them.

It becomes selfish, when you devote so much energy and time to this one activity and ruin the other parts of your life by neglecting them. When I got married there was a requirement to be devoted...it is not fair to make such a promise and drop it when it is convenient. Sometimes it is hard to remain balanced, but hopefully with support from your partner you can make it back to a stable point without the whole thing getting broken.

I guess the real problem happens when all parties involved are selfish and become so fixed in their own views that it becomes impossible to coexist in peace.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Hi Stephanie...i agree with your answers...thnx

i would like to add a few things..

the concept that the living of our lives, the acceptance of our identities is somehow so wrong that to do it is selfish is the problem...we shouldnt have to push it down peoples throats...there is nothing wrong with it...the fact that we are so unaccepted and frankly misunderstood has caused enormous suffering for us and our loved ones....

a hunter or golfer that spends all weekend away from their families, that take week long hunting trips...arent they being incredibly selfish to satisfy their "needs and desires"?....i think so...but its totally accepted and laughed at...

i've been there on the 18th hole...lets go another round boys!....HAHAHA--back slap--boy i'm finally away from the ole ball and chain....its totally accepted...but it often causes suffering for the partner that is left out..

so i hear your question...if you take the position that ALL actions that benefit only yourself are selfish, then i guess i have to agree....but i feel we all have a birthright to live our lives as productive good people...and the fact that society generally misunderstands and marginalizes us is a problem, but it doesnt make us anymore selfish than anybody else..

balancing relationships is always about give and take, i would guess that almost every relationship that breaks is because one side takes too much, or needs too much...gender variance is just one of many many things that cause imbalance...

if your needs are unfullfilled, there is a significant cost to you..if you fulfill your needs there may be a cost to your SO..either way, you are risking throwing the relationship out of balance...we are all free to make our own choices, and that's whats great about free will.....but of course there are also consequences...

i guess the unanswered question would be whether being transgendered is a "worse" thing than cheating, doing drugs, drinking, ignoring, stealing, withholding sex, being a workoholic, gambling, abusing, and anything else that we would all consider selfish to the point of hurting a relationship..
thats my 23 cents...heh

thnx!
Kate

[TrekGirl1701]

I don't really see it as a "me first!" thing. I look around at people who aren't crossdressers, men and women, and they're wearing what they want to wear and act how they want to act. And I can't because it isn't what's considered "normal"?

I admit I have quite a different situation from most other crossdressers who are in committed relationships and have children. I can only imagine what it's like for you guys. But for me it's gotten to the point where I don't consider my crossdressing to be selfish. I feel like I'm getting closer and closer to coming out of the closet and when I do I won't be "shoving it down people's throats". I'll be myself and I shouldn't feel like I'm making life worse for those around me. My parents, siblings, friends all have habits that annoy the ever-living piss out of me, but I accept them because they have lots of good qualities that vastly out-weigh the bad ones. Is it too much to ask for the same in return?

[Rhonda Jean]

a hunter or golfer that spends all weekend away from their families, that take week long hunting trips...arent they being incredibly selfish to satisfy their "needs and desires"?....i think so...but its totally accepted and laughed at...

From a time standpoint or even a money standpoint, you've got a point. Otherwise, not so much. Your wife and kids would suffer no embarrassment over you coming out as a hunter or a golfer. You won't lose your job or your status in the community. Your friends won't start avoiding you. It won't suddenly be uncomfortable for your relatives to be around you at family gatherings.

I think, although I have no way of knowing, that that once someone knows you like to wear women's clothes, they may carry that image of you, real or imagined, with them into every context that involves you. This includes interactions with your wife and kids. I would imagine that it's quite an indelible image, particularly among those least familiar (almost everybody). To them, it's likely to be a pretty ridiculous looking image... Funny, perverted, mentally disturbed... There's just no telling, regardless of how pretty and well adjusted we thing we are. If your wife and kids are accepting, people would probably thik they're wierd for accepting you.

Taking my recent divorce as an example... If my wife told 20 of her friends that she had to leave me because I was a crossdresser and filled them in on the details of that activity over the last 30 years, I suspect that 20 out of 20would have been completely and enthusiasticly supportive of her decision to leave, and would respect her for taking such a stand against such abhorent behavior. She would be seen as taking the moral high ground. On the other hand, if she outed me to this same group and expressed her tolerance, support, encouragement, appreciation, or what-have-you, their reaction probably would have been much less positive toward her.

[LisaM]

Stephanie,

You have posed a wonderful question and it can lead in many directions.

What other types of behaviors can be considered selfish? Forget about golf and hunting---what about shopping? or talking on the phone? What about getting dressed for a party? My SO loves to get dressed for a party. She generally spends about 1 - 1 1/2 hours getting ready and she really loves it. Is she guilty of being selfish? She could probably get ready in half the time.

I happen to agree with Rhonda Jean---people choose to call CDing selfish because they don't think it is "normal". Shopping is normal so you can spend hours and hours shopping and it is ok.

[ReineD]

What I have not heard from are the GG's. Can I get a little perspective from someone who doesn't "live it" yet lives with it?

If we lived in a society that accepted male, female, and trans genders it would be 'normal' to express transness and no sacrifice would be necessary. Selfishness in expressing any gender would not exist. Still it would behoove partners to disclose in the beginning of their relationship their gender and sexuality.

But in our current society I see the balancing point as being a matter of adapting to the existing environment; of taking it as far as it can be taken while still maintaining necessary support systems such as jobs, families, etc. It can be a precarious balance and the balancing point will be different for everyone, depending on both the barriers that can realistically be overcome and the strength of the desire to live as femme. Even the 'selfish point' is in a different place now than it was 30 years ago. Then it might have been considered selfish to indulge, period. Now, it might be considered selfish to insist on attending a parent/teacher conference while dressed.

It would be much more feasible and less selfish for a TG who is fortunate enough to work for a company that supports gender rights to live full time. Add to that a supportive partner, and there are almost no barriers to overcome, save perhaps having a smaller social circle than the couple might have otherwise. Even then, if they live in a progressive area they might construct their social lives to not notice any societal bias.

But if a TG wants to live full time AND (and this is important) equally wants to keep her job with a company that isn't quite as progressive, and if she has a spouse and young children with whom it would be difficult to be 'out', it might not be such a hardship to find an different balancing point than the TG in the above example. Adaptation. I've read this many times in this forum.

Of course if she is TS, it is an entirely different matter, having forged bonds with a spouse who did not know the extent of the gender dysphoria. Would it then be selfish for each partner to realize their paths have diverged? Would it be selfish to insist on rearing children in a relationship where neither parent is happy?

But for non-TSs, in our unenlightened society it takes a very strong marriage to navigate the issues surrounding being trans. Considering our very high divorce rates, it is not surprising so many marriages fail when CDing is involved. But to blame the failure of these marriages solely on the CDing and the CDer's 'selfishness' is not fair, in my opinion. In this situation neither the CDer nor the spouse see their unhappy marriage as a precious asset they do not wish to give up, or one or the other simply cannot get past denial. Otherwise, the couple would be able to make allowances and compromises.

I compare balancing points in TG marriages to the concept of elasticity that results in market equilibrium in the theory of supply and demand. :) It is dependent on the supply of love and understanding vs. the individuals' needs within the relationship and their ability to reach compromises they can live with. Unless the TG partner is TS, of course [edit]: in which case the partner either fully supports or does not.

[AKAMichelle]

It's simple, his wife doesn't have to be rude. All I ask is she be civil.
Summer

I wasn't going to get into my situation much. The one thing that I would appreciate is that she understood how I felt about the comments which she makes. The more she cuts me down = the farther away I want to be. I don't fault her for any of her feelings except for the jabs which she contantly takes to ridicule and belittle me. That is not the kind of behavior which promotes a good relationship.

[Stephanie Miller]

So Michelle, Without going through your history and reading past posts first I am just assuming that you told your wife about Michelle AFTER you were married? If so, did she act this way about TS?TG?CD'ism before you wee married too? Or is she only acting this way after? If after, is she taking here agression/distate of this out on you? If she acted this way prior - then why are you suprised or hurt?
That is the point of my post:
At what point are we infringing on other people? Is this O.K. to do? Is there an amount of "infringment" that needs to be done so our acceptance is ... well, accepted? And is there a point where we cross the line just to fullfill our own needs? Even at the expense on terminating prior obligations.

[AKAMichelle]

So Michelle, Without going through your history and reading past posts first I am just assuming that you told your wife about Michelle AFTER you were married? If so, did she act this way about TS?TG?CD'ism before you wee married too? Or is she only acting this way after? If after, is she taking here agression/distate of this out on you? If she acted this way prior - then why are you suprised or hurt?
That is the point of my post:
At what point are we infringing on other people? Is this O.K. to do? Is there an amount of "infringment" that needs to be done so our acceptance is ... well, accepted? And is there a point where we cross the line just to fullfill our own needs? Even at the expense on terminating prior obligations.

Now you have done it, you have pulled it out of me. <VBG>

When we met she was always a girly girl and I was very masculine which I still am most of the time. I thought that the feelings had finally gone away so I didn't tell her. After she rounds of getting new clothes and purging, I got sick of the rollercoaster emotional ride. So in Jan 2008, I told her. Now she had caught me 15 years before in one of her dresses, but that is ancient history and a whopper that I had to tell to get out of it.

Her reaction was somewhat what I expected. She didn't like it. She thought I was sinning dressing and many other things. Being a devote Baptist she had a lot of beliefs and I was fully aware of them. I hoped that she would accept this about me at least to the point of understanding. I never expected her to see me dressed or go anywhere with me. I knew this much would never happen. I had hoped that she would be for a don't ask - don't tell level of understanding.

Unfortunately that never happened. I accept full responsibility for the situation that I find myself in regards to her acceptance. I hid it from her and now I have to reap what I have sown.

I think we do cross the line sometimes and it is only through communication that the boundaries are set. I don't believe a person should be forced to accept, but a spouse that fails to at least understand how unaccepting comments hurt the other person is being selfish by failing to care about our feelings. If we have an unaccepting spouse, I think we should not talk about cd'ing and try to have a normal life with the white elephant in the room.

Crossdressing is like a brick wall between two people when you have an unaccepting spouse. I think you have to be able to talk about it in order to have a good marriage. In all fairness though, this behavior from my wife is not limited to cd'ing. This is a common tactic of hers to keep me towing the line the way she says. If the problem was limited to cd'ing then we would survive. But since this crosses over into many other areas, I don't see a happy ending with her in the picture. We will all know in the next month or so what the final verdict is regarding our marriage.

[kellycan27]

Michelle,
I'm very sorry for your situation, your wife is just be cruel and selfish.
That is the other side of the table. Stand up for your self and tell her to keep here opinions to her self.
Summer

Just remember that there are two sides to every story.

[ReineD]

Crossdressing is like a brick wall between two people when you have an unaccepting spouse. I think you have to be able to talk about it in order to have a good marriage. In all fairness though, this behavior from my wife is not limited to cd'ing. This is a common tactic of hers to keep me towing the line the way she says. If the problem was limited to cd'ing then we would survive. But since this crosses over into many other areas, I don't see a happy ending with her in the picture. We will all know in the next month or so what the final verdict is regarding our marriage.

How true! You cannot expect a spouse to be willing to jump at the chance to participate, although it would be nice if she did, but at the same time she needs to allow that you have the right to express who you are and to respect you for it. If your wife uses the same controlling tactics in other areas of your marriage, I don't blame you for wanting to find a resolution. It is not right for her to use religious argument and ridicule in order to not face her own demons, her own unwillingness to live and let live. Your wife could easily respect your right to express yourself without being involved in any way, without having to feel as if it was shoved down her throat. I am sorry Michelle, and I hope you can find a way to help your wife begin to understand. :hugs:

[kellycan27]

How true! You cannot expect a spouse to be willing to jump at the chance to participate, although it would be nice if she did, but at the same time she needs to allow that you have the right to express who you are and to respect you for it. If your wife uses the same controlling tactics in other areas of your marriage, I don't blame you for wanting to find a resolution. It is not right for her to use religious argument and ridicule in order to not face her own demons, her own unwillingness to live and let live. Your wife could easily respect your right to express yourself without being involved in any way, without having to feel as if it was shoved down her throat. I am sorry Michelle, and I hope you can find a way to help your wife begin to understand. :hugs:

Wasn't it basically "shoved down her throat"? She didn't have a say from the start... So is she just expected to just accept the fact? What about her rights? What about her being able to live comfortably? You blindside her, and she's to blame for not liking what you do? (you used in the general) It always amazes me when people complain about their rights, and then totally ignore the other persons. This is yet another arguement fot honesty being the best policy. And as someone mentioned.. you reap what you sow. Compromise is great if you can do it..if not maybe it's time to walk away and live to fight another day. Life is way too short to be unhappy.. for either party.

[Miranda09]

This really is a great thread Stephanie with alot of very interesting and insightful responses. My take on all of this really has to do with the me, me, me syndrome. As others have said, it's fine to express yourself as a CDer, but one should never force this upon others who are not comfortable with it. As for the children, they should be protected above all else. Children can be very cruel to each other, and this would only provide more ammo for those who like to make fun of others to boost their own insecurities. I sort of liken this to those who insist on forcing their religous beliefs on others, and when they don't accept, they become insensed. Politics can be alot like this as well. CDing is a very special activity for me, and I certainly don't want to taint it by forcing this aspect of my life upon others. But, as with any social issue, people are indeed extremely complex and emotional creatures and CDing seems to really bring this to the surface.
Just one more comment...We as a community want to be accepted by society. It will be a long time before this happens completely and it doesn't help things any by INSISTING that others accept us no matter what. It'll come..it'll just take time!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Steph - yes you are correct...:straightface:

Rhonda...yes i agree and your point is well taken...

I am trying to make the point that there is nothing wrong with us....we are who we are.....society doesnt generally accept us, and there is so much self hatred and shame in our community it makes it very very difficult to see through it..the golfer is taking advantage of society's acceptance, we are stuck with being not accepted for now...it doesn't make us inherently more selfish is all i'm saying...and the 20 hour a week golfer does not spend alot of his/her time worrying about it

so yes, i have to say there is selfishness in risking societies wrath on our loved ones , but we did not cause this situation. it's not our fault... call it a lifestyle/condition/identity/fetish...whatever you want..we were born this way...a golfer CHOOSES to take huge chunks of time away from the family (btw-i love golf...its just an example :heehee:) if OTHER people happily living THEIR OWN LIVES would stop judging us, then we wouldnt try so hard to live in a self imposed closet of shame guilt and fear....but they do, and we do...

for me personally...i rejected myself....i hated myself, i got an MBA, i got a great job, i worked my ass off, i did what all the "other guys" did, got married had kids and tried everything possible, meds, hypnosis to live the life that everyone else wanted me to live...i worried that i am doomed to go to hell (i'm catholic) ....as i slowly disintegrated i kept getting promoted and more visible in our community..i worked harder and cried myself to sleep...i got involved in charity and community service, but finally i decided to kill myself but then quickly rejected that idea....how dare i think that...still i wished to die...every day, then every hour....i avoided all social contact outside my family and job, finally i knew what i had to do, this is my own personal story and i won't hide it....some people hate me for it...i can't control that

after talking to my wife, we stayed together for a while then finally broke up...i take total responsibility and i feel that my weakness hurt her..i would never say a bad thing about her...i still love her and she still counts on me for my unconditional love and support...she says that no matter how hard she tries, she doesnt regret our time together...she is worried that i will be outed in our community and we have worked together to plan out how to handle this eventuality...as for my kids...we love the hell out of each other....if you call my choice to marry a selfish mistake, i can't argue with you, it was....but nobody is perfect...nobody..and my kids are wonderful girls, living fullsome lives..one is 15 and helps autistic children and shelters aniimals...one is 12 and enjoying her life and spends her days hanging out with great friends (most of them know about me)....they love me and i love them...they are quite grounded and upset at my/their plight but are dealing with it...they would not be on this earth but for me....i didnt choose my nature, and they didnt choose their parents...

so my point is that we all tend to grind ourselves down...to feel sorry for ourselves and live a life that everyone else wants us to lead...to say that you will not accept living that way is not selfish...its sad....and for me, it caused me to make mistakes that led to terrible suffering for me and my loved ones and i am forever sorry for that...

but i'm pragmatic and realistic...i'm looking at this through my own experience...i made my bed..but i don't want to die a bitter and lonely man....i want to love myself, i want to be at peace..i don;t want to feel selfish and so i've worked all that out for myself..

just like folks that desperately want to transition, or closeted crossdressers, that can't come out because it makes you feel ashamed and guilty....you have total respect and best wishes from me, and feeling differently than me about it (ie feeling its selfish) is a totally reasonable and sensible way to look at it too...either way, what i wish for all of us is to love ourselves and then make the choices we need to make to follow your own path...and then most of all, to be at peace with your choice...
:hugs:

[battybattybats]

Sometimes the way things appear is the opposite to the way they really are.

An optical illussion is a good example, where something may seem larger than that next to it when in fact its the same size or even smaller.

So when hiding our CDing intially looks like the choice that causes the least harm in our lives it can often cause the most. We can think keeping the secret will protect our parents, friends and family even more than ourselves but before we realise we add a spouse or even children to that equation, people who have a right to know and who will be hurt more the longer it is before they find out if they ever do.

What seemed like avoiding pain just results in more.

And when we finally have to deal with our long-neglected personal needs it looks like self-indulgence because it and the pain it may cause to others is taken out of context from the excessive self-denial and the pain it caused to ourselves and the long-term increase of pain to others from holding back.

While coming out we think will cause too much pain and is often dismissed because of the pain it causes. And we think of it as the selfish option.

But in fact we are not responsible for the fact our society became anti-CD in the past. The pain of us being TG is not our fault. And in general the sooner we come ut the less pain it'll be. the more we wait the worse.

And if we dont our descendants, some perhaps carrying a CD gene and some just random, and kids in our neighbourhoods and their kids will also be CDs in the same boat as us. If we don't bite the bullet and reverse the anti-CD changes to society we put them in our own problem.

Thats why while it seems selfless being in the closet leads to the highest risk of the most pain for the most people.

But its a common human error that the pain that is closest seems worst and the pain further away seems the least...

Just like common optical illussions.



Just one more comment...We as a community want to be accepted by society. It will be a long time before this happens completely and it doesn't help things any by INSISTING that others accept us no matter what. It'll come..it'll just take time!

Educated Women? They insisted. Working Women? Insisted. Black Americans? Insisted. Gays? Insisted. Lesbians? Insisted. Jews? Insisted. Catholics? Insisted... I could go on and cite every persecuted unaccepted minority whose acceptance has increased in human history that I know of. Can you find any or many exceptions? Otherwise we have a myth on our hands.

[Karren H]

Label me the queen of selfishness if you like... And I admit I am... But not when it comes to family.. They come first.. Always.... And money for me is not an issue....... But if there's some time left over I can claim then I will selfishly take it and run.. Just for myself.. I'm not going to use what little time I can ekk out to go enhance the standing of all crossdressers world wide... I'm going to go do what I love to do... If the public or anyone else doesn't like it then screw them...

[TrekGirl1701]

This really is a great thread Stephanie with alot of very interesting and insightful responses. My take on all of this really has to do with the me, me, me syndrome. As others have said, it's fine to express yourself as a CDer, but one should never force this upon others who are not comfortable with it. As for the children, they should be protected above all else. Children can be very cruel to each other, and this would only provide more ammo for those who like to make fun of others to boost their own insecurities. I sort of liken this to those who insist on forcing their religous beliefs on others, and when they don't accept, they become insensed. Politics can be alot like this as well. CDing is a very special activity for me, and I certainly don't want to taint it by forcing this aspect of my life upon others. But, as with any social issue, people are indeed extremely complex and emotional creatures and CDing seems to really bring this to the surface.
Just one more comment...We as a community want to be accepted by society. It will be a long time before this happens completely and it doesn't help things any by INSISTING that others accept us no matter what. It'll come..it'll just take time!

Sorry, Miranda, but I really don't agree with any of this. I've been a closet crossdresser since I was about 12 or 13 (I'm 27 now) and I've had feelings about crossdressing for as long as I can remember. While it's true that I've always been well-liked by my family and teachers and classmates over the years because I never gave them any reason to dislike me, it's also true that by keeping this a secret all these years it has done considerable damage to ME. I'm not naturally shy. It wasn't until I started crossdressing and keeping it a secret that I became an introvert. This, in turn, shattered a lot of my confidence and I've never allowed anybody to get close to me. Each time a good friendship would start forming, I'd push them away because I didn't want them to find out my secret.

So, no, I didn't force my "shameful" lifestyle on anybody, but looking back I sure as hell wish I had.

And batty, I agree with you. When I was born the negative stigma surrounding crossdressing was already there. And it won't go away until we get out there and tell people that they don't have to be afraid of us or hate us.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

sorry to post so much...i'm home alone today...heh

mirande...altho it's certainly true that we can't by our insistence MAKE people accept us if they don't want to,

i beleive that if we view this as behaviour that we must not "force" on others, that we must not insist on acceptance, and that we must keep closeted to protect our loved ones at all costs...then we are trapped .....acceptance will NEVER come...

[ReineD]

Wasn't it basically "shoved down her throat"? She didn't have a say from the start... So is she just expected to just accept the fact? What about her rights? What about her being able to live comfortably? You blindside her, and she's to blame for not liking what you do?

Kelly, if for Michelle the CDing was just a hobby, a distasteful hobby according to her wife, that Michelle could take or leave then I agree with your point. But the CDing is an intrinsic part of who she is, and as a human being she does have the right to express herself. She can do so privately without shoving it down her wife's throat. She is not asking or trying to force her wife to participate. Michelle is merely asking to have the dignity to not have to lie about who she is, to not feel as if she is sneaking around doing something "bad". I'm sure if Michelle's wife engaged in activities that Michelle didn't approve of, as long as they were not illegal, Michelle would find something else to do when her wife chose to engage in these activities and it would not take away from the love she feels for her wife?

[Stephanie Miller]

But Kaitlyn, your saying it again. That we NEED to force our agenda/lifestyle or it will not be accepted. And to a point I agree. But to what point? As I asked earlier: "At what point are we infringing on other people? Is this O.K. to do? Is there an amount of "infringment" that needs to be done so our acceptance is ... well, accepted? And is there a point where we cross the line just to fullfill our own needs? Even at the expense on terminating prior obligations. " If Katharine Hepburn wasn't such a strong voice for women to wear pants...well us CD's may be facing a dress shortage today! But did she do it in baby steps? Women show a LOT more skin today than yesteryear. They didn't do it overnight. Are we "pushing" too fast here because we are not fighting for CD acceptance for future generations but "Me" today?

[Rhonda Jean]

A couple of things... First of all, Kaitlyn... I hope I didn't come across as a smart ass. We're at different points in the spectrum. I won't even pretend to know what it must be like for you. I know what you were saying.

As a do-it-yourself psychologist, I've quizzed myself pretty hard on the TS subject, particularly after my ex wife so clearly opined that I'm a woman. For me, first of all I'm pretty happy just being a pretty darn dedicated crossdresser. But what if none of the things like family, job, friends, community, that keep me so tied to my male identity didn't exist? Would I choose to live the rest of my life as a woman? Maybe! As long as we're dealing in fantasy, what I'd really like is to be able to float freely between and inbetween genders at will. Throw in a little more reality, even just adding family to the mix and the answer becomes a definite no. There is a large divide between those who feel the way I do and those who would answer yes, and, as always, several shades in between. Something that's a lot deeper than just our relative attraction to women's clothes. In fact, I suspect that my love of the clothes, makeup, etc. is a great as that of most TS's. It's certainly as great as most women's, so why wouldn't it be? I think we all view these things from a very narrow perspective. Despite our commonality, we are all very different.

I've met only a few mtf transexuals in my life. One (pre-op or non op, not sure, but on hormones and married with children) was as non-feminine of a person as one could ever be, and was dressed as unfeminine as one could be (I'll avoid a detailed description because it'd just be rude and unnecessary. Use your imagination). When we met I was really skinny, short skirt, heels, long hair, fake boobs, big hoop earrings, just-done nails, a pound of makeup. She outweighed me by at least 100 pounds and looked and dressed like she'd just come from the coal mine. I couldn't help thinking, "Who looks like the TS here?" Yet she was dead serious about becoming a woman, and her wife was 110% supportive. It was kind of a revelation to me that being TS isn't necessarily about the clothes, or how you'll look in them. I'm glad I don't have to deal with gender issues on that level. It's tougher than what I do. In some ways, although I HATE the TS down to CD hierarchy, I almost get it on some level. All I want to do is priss around in pretty clothes and go to the beauty shop. They're dealing with life and gender dysphoria in a way that I can't comprehend. No wonder the general public is astonished at both of us.

Now, as far as activism. I'm no activist! In fact, I try to avoid circumstances and people where I feel my being crossdressed would be particularly uncomfortable or offensive. Those situations make ME uncomfortable, and I didn't get all dressed up to go out and be uncomfortable!

Shopping is my deal, and when I'm out I go out of my way to be nice, to smile, and be cheerful. I put in a lot of effort to look as good and as feminine as I possibly can. In that frame of mind, my mannerisms and the way I carry myself seem to naturally become more feminine. Of course, I'd love to unquestionably pass, but I don't. Being read, though, and still being treated warmly is at least as good as passing.

As an example, a few months ago I was at a large thrift store where I'd been many times and the staff was always wonderful to me. I had passed a woman a couple of times in the aisles. A very plainly dressed woman, hair in a ponytail, no makeup, a little taller than me. When we passed, she'd smile a little and give me a quick look-over. I figured I was the first crossdresser she'd ever seen. Then when we were passing in the aisle she said, "Can I tell you something?" I thought, uh oh, here comes a sermon, but I smiled and said yes. She said, "I just had to tell you that you are just so beautiful!" It made me tear up. Makes me tear up just to write it. I managed a "Thank you. That's so nice. I needed that." It was pretty obvious I had tears in my eyes, and she said, "Come here. Can I give you a hug?" We hugged, and I thanked her again, and told her that I also knew she was lieing. She said, "I don't lie, and I'm not talking about just the way you look. You just come across as a beautiful person on the inside as well as the outside."

So there I was, read like a book, yet receiving one of the most moving compliments of my entire life. I don't know if I was the first crossdresser she'd ever seen, but if I was, maybe she came away with a positive impression of crossdressers in general. I try to make a positive impression on people. Maybe that's my activism.

[battybattybats]

But Kaitlyn, your saying it again. That we NEED to force our agenda/lifestyle or it will not be accepted. And to a point I agree. But to what point? As I asked earlier: "At what point are we infringing on other people?

You know thats a really good question!

At what point IS it infringing on someone else?

* When it inconveniences someone else? Why our very existence as CDs when centuries of hard work trying to stamp out CDing have occured inconveniences some people.

* When it flies against Social Mores, conventions or expectation? No those chaged, often only in the last few centuries, to forbid crossdressing. Going against those, just like when accepting women as equals or races as equals or oppossing slavery is the right thing to do. It may distress people for them to have their expectations of 'correct' behaviour flagrantly violated but when they get over that suffering they will be better for it, just like getting over sexist attitudes to women and racist ones etc.

* When it flies against a loved ones expectations? As much as we don't want our families friends and lovers to feel any pain when the expectation they were taught is wrong it is what needs to change, we can try and minimise the growing pains but we're still not infringing on them, only challenging false immoral and unethical beliefs of what is right and wrong.

* When it infringes the human rights of others? It never does. No-one can name a human right infringed intrinsicly by crossdressing. In fact crossdressing itself falls under several clear human rights principles as shown in the Yogyakarta Principles document. Crossdressing is a human right.

So where is the infringement?


Is this O.K. to do?

Is it ok NOT to do? This isn't like wearing a unique hairstyle just to look different, and even that very thing alone is valid and not an infringement but a simple excercise of the most basic and fundamental human rights. No this is about an aspect of humanity that has existed in every culture throughout not just all recorded history but in every unwritten oral history too! That makes us a universal aspect of humanity. A people. With all the same rights and responsibilities of a race or religion or ethnicity.


Is there an amount of "infringment" that needs to be done so our acceptance is ... well, accepted?

Exposing others to our true nature and reality is not an infringement. It's a right and arguably also a responsibility. And standing up and demanding our rights was good enough for women and worked for them, and every other minority thats got anywhere. Is it ok to consider all those wrong? Is it ok to think it was wrong of slaves to demand freedom cause it 'infringed' on slave-owners?


And is there a point where we cross the line just to fullfill our own needs?

No-ones talking about firebombing like some womens rights suffragettes did. Nor violent riots anymore. So unless we do turn to those methods then what line are we really crossing but defying unjust and wrong rules and expectations.


Even at the expense on terminating prior obligations.

When obligations are in conflict we have to consider which should be the highest priority. And that depends on the obligations. We have an unacknowledged obligation to the 37%-54% (dependant on country and study) of TG youth that attempt suicide compared to the male national average in Australia of 8%! And to those CDs who will be in the exact same situation in a decades time if we ourselves do not act to create change.

Whatever we do we must compare our obligations to those children who will die otherwise!


If Katharine Hepburn wasn't such a strong voice for women to wear pants...well us CD's may be facing a dress shortage today! But did she do it in baby steps?

She was just one of a huge number of women who faught for freedom one way or another. There were the hunger-strikers, the fire-bombers, the painting-slashers, the police-attackers, the marchers, the women killed running into the horserace, the women arrested for wearing trousers, the women arrested for wearing 'indecent' swimwear, the out lesbians when it was illegal and got people lobotomised by the state.

And we are talking over 100 years ago! And they won most of their fights!


Women show a LOT more skin today than yesteryear. They didn't do it overnight.

But many tried overnight! And they one a victory at a time. And the most progress happened after the most pushing, the gaps of little progress came when the 'baby steps' arguments were heeded!


Are we "pushing" too fast here because we are not fighting for CD acceptance for future generations but "Me" today?

Compared to who? Compared to those minorities that made major progress we're hardly pushing at all! We are going at a snails pace using marshmallow covered eiderdown pillows!

[Rhonda Jean]

Batty,
You're obviously passionate about this, but even after all this, I'm not sure exactly what it is you want to fight about, or exactly what form this fight should take. Crossdressing isn't against the law. There are countless accounts right on this board of many of us going about our lives in ordinary and not-so-ordinary ways dressed as we choose at the time. In my own experience, the only thing lacking is that not everybody likes us. I think we can make a lot more progress by demonstrating that we're not threatening, not perverted, that we're productive citizens that lead ordinary lives, etc..

I'm not sure who it is who'd respond well to being forced to accept or like anyone. Obviously I don't want to fight anybody. A pacifist, I suppose. Given my, uhummm.... proclivities, I don't suppose I'd be offended to be referred to as a p#$$y!

[battybattybats]

Batty,
You're obviously passionate about this, but even after all this, I'm not sure exactly what it is you want to fight about, or exactly what form this fight should take. Crossdressing isn't against the law.

Kuwait, Sudan, Iran.. just for starters those are countries that torture and/or execute CDs


There are countless accounts right on this board of many of us going about our lives in ordinary and not-so-ordinary ways dressed as we choose at the time.

In much of the USA you can be fited for CDing at home, denied housing for being a CD. In Australia you can be legally discriminated against for being a CD depending on what state you live in. Same with parts of Europe.

In much of the world you can be in trouble for using either bathrrom when CDd.

Fundamental civl/human rights. Housing, Employment, Education. Currently going before courts and legislatures in the UK, USA, Australia!

In Australia the attmepted suicide rate for TGs is around 40%, in the USA figures get up to 54%. Compared to the 8% of male youth declared a crisis and with funding being spent on it as such. How much is spent on the TG kids dying? Zip, nada, nil. Murder by deliberate negligence.


In my own experience, the only thing lacking is that not everybody likes us. I think we can make a lot more progress by demonstrating that we're not threatening, not perverted, that we're productive citizens that lead ordinary lives, etc..

In Australia 85% in a national poll are in favour of antidiscrimination legislation on gender identity. Its a small but dangerous minority that on all levels of government of both major parties ensuring we don not have equal rights.


I'm not sure who it is who'd respond well to being forced to accept or like anyone. Obviously I don't want to fight anybody. A pacifist, I suppose.

Ghandi was a pacifist and he forced people to accept plenty. The test of what works is what has worked yes? And people demanding their equal rights has worked for every minority that has gained more acceptance tolerance and equality. Why do we ignore the evidence of history?

[Rhonda Jean]

Batty,
I applaud your passion on this. I'm not much of a traveler, so for me, what goes on outside the U.S. isn't much of an issue (not just in cding terms). Women's rights haven't progressed far in some of those places you mention, either.

I do have an appreciation for activists who somehow made it possible for us here in the U.S. to enjoy the freedoms that we DO have. I have no idea how it happened. I don't know who to thank. I am no student of history, and, even if I were, I doubt that that path is clearly dileanated, from a crossdressing sense. Somewhere along the line, though, it started to be sort of okay for people to be different. That obviously doesn't mean universal acceptance, but I know it's a lot better than when I was a kid (That's about as far back in history as I can relate, but that's pretty far). A lot of progress has already been made. I'm all for continuing the progress, but I don't think we'll make much by threatening to put a Dior pump up someone's backside. I don't think we're likely to hear , "Man I used to hate them pantie-wearin' p#$$ies 'till one of 'em threatened to whup my a$$ with his mascara brush."

Phew! I'm getting too tired. Maybe I'll continue this tomorrow when I might can make

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It's a very valid point that a person that identifies as a male and loves to crossdress, buy clothes etc, can be considered selfish for taking the time and money and frankly the energy away from other family obligations IF their dressing is out of hand (hard to define but you probably know it when you see it), i think that could be crossing a line..and it's wonderful to feel accepted for who you are

......and btw Rhonda..i don't buy the bs about there being a hierarchy between ts folks and cd folks...and all in between...none of us are better or worse, we may have different challenges, but none of us are doing anything wrong...
i didnt mean to get all high and mighty about things..:love:

i do stand by my point that there is nothing at all inherently wrong about being a crossdresser...and i beleive that it's not selfish at all to stand up for your identity as a crossdresser.... and i simply can't accept that the concept that thinking it's socially unacceptable (by many but not all) is a reason to feel dressing is selfish...at some point we all have live our own lives and not let others dictate how we feel about it....so my answer is it's NOT infringing on other people...as far as our kids, we should be teaching our kids to be tolerant and accepting of people, not hiding in a closet for their sake, teaching them to be intolerant by example....as batty said, an arguement can be made that it's our responsibility to stand up and be counted....

some people hate us...some people compare us to all kinds of people that hurt others and feel crossdressing is just plain wrong, i can insist all i want that they accept me, but i can't force them to accept me.. i dont see how it makes me selfish to try, and if people really really knew us, they would not be so unaccepting...and then we can be more comfortable in accepting ourselves..a win/win as they say

[Miranda09]

Sorry, Miranda, but I really don't agree with any of this. I've been a closet crossdresser since I was about 12 or 13 (I'm 27 now) and I've had feelings about crossdressing for as long as I can remember. While it's true that I've always been well-liked by my family and teachers and classmates over the years because I never gave them any reason to dislike me, it's also true that by keeping this a secret all these years it has done considerable damage to ME. I'm not naturally shy. It wasn't until I started crossdressing and keeping it a secret that I became an introvert. This, in turn, shattered a lot of my confidence and I've never allowed anybody to get close to me. Each time a good friendship would start forming, I'd push them away because I didn't want them to find out my secret.

So, no, I didn't force my "shameful" lifestyle on anybody, but looking back I sure as hell wish I had.


TrekGirl, I do understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. I've been CDing off and on since around 12 and I'm just turning 57!! I've just recently started to try to understand this aspect of my personality myself, not trying to accept it, since I already do, but just to understand it. Now if I'm trying to do this myself, how easy do think it is for others to understand. You have said that you never have allowed anyone to get close to you because of your secret and you would turn away from them when a friendship was starting to develop. I would propose that this was a mistake. You don't have to tell someone about your CDing in order to have a friendship with them. After a while, you might be able to discuss it with them, if you feel the trust is there. In my own experience, of all my friends and family, there is only ONE person whom I have told about my CDing, and I knew I could trust her with that knowledge. I know I could tell my other very close friends, and even a few family members, but what would be the point. Is it something they really need to know? A question only you can answer. Your comment regarding "a shameful lifestyle" actually says a lot, even tho I know you don't view it in this manner. Our society is still a rather Victorian, puritanical society when it comes to sex and gender roles. These viewpoints are drilled into us at an early age and is not easily swept aside. So. if you were to "force" this lifestyle on someone and make them accept it unconditionally, I maintain you will end up becoming isolated. So this is why I think acceptance of our lifestyle will just take time. I know I'll never see it...maybe you will, but don't turn away friendships because of this aspect of your personality. If you want acceptance, educate, don't force.

Batty, I do understand your view on acceptance being achieved by many groups in our society. But their reasons for acceptance were much more complex. Women insisted, why? They couldn't vote, hold public office, weren't ever taken seriously unless they were as aggressive as men, and were even considered no more than property. Black Americans insisting? Hell yeah. Blacks weren't allowed to be in the same rooms as whites, could not vote, own land, live in white communities, not even look at a white woman without being persecuted in some form or other (and I don't think I need to go into details here). Many other groups also insisted for many of the same reasons., Look at the gay/lesbian community. Even today, many look at same sex marriage as an affront to our "moral fiber" and against many religious teachings. Their paths to acceptance have also resulted in them gathering into their own large communities where they could move around unfettered by outsiders (so to speak). All of these groups were vocal, AND a larger part of society than we are. And, all of these groups took time to become accepted, and this is what I'm saying...in time, we too will become accepted, but not until our lifestyle has stopped being referred to as a syndrome or disorder, which implies an illness or condition that needs to be cured, which is a viewpoint the I reject completely.

BTW, all these viewpoints presented here have been immensely eye opening and I have been enjoying reading everyone's comments, whether I agreed with them or not.

[battybattybats]

Look at the gay/lesbian community. Even today, many look at same sex marriage as an affront to our "moral fiber" and against many religious teachings. Their paths to acceptance have also resulted in them gathering into their own large communities where they could move around unfettered by outsiders (so to speak). All of these groups were vocal, AND a larger part of society than we are.

Actually gays and lesbians are about 2-4% of the population. By what stats we have CDs outnumber them as we are 6-10% of the population!

Just MtF tiwi islanders where there is a trans tradition allowing them to be themselves being rebuilt from near destriction is 4% of population alone and growing!

[TrekGirl1701]

TrekGirl, I do understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. I've been CDing off and on since around 12 and I'm just turning 57!! I've just recently started to try to understand this aspect of my personality myself, not trying to accept it, since I already do, but just to understand it. Now if I'm trying to do this myself, how easy do think it is for others to understand.

Why can't it be a learning experience for both you and others. Sometimes I learn things better if I'm learning it with somebody else.


You have said that you never have allowed anyone to get close to you because of your secret and you would turn away from them when a friendship was starting to develop. I would propose that this was a mistake.

I definitely agree with that. I wasn't friendless, but I didn't have anybody that I would call a "best" friend. I didn't really make an effort to get closer to people even though they were willing to get closer to me. It's just that I had this notion that people hated crossdressers and if anybody found out my life would be over. I was a teenager so I was over-dramatic like that.

The past couple of years, though, ever since finding this place things have been changing for me. I enjoy the company of my co-workers, I do have a very good friend that I like to hang out with when we get the chance and I'm even more open to my family. I'm really starting to feel that I can trust people to know my secret and I think the time is coming very soon in which I will come out of the closet.


You don't have to tell someone about your CDing in order to have a friendship with them. After a while, you might be able to discuss it with them, if you feel the trust is there. In my own experience, of all my friends and family, there is only ONE person whom I have told about my CDing, and I knew I could trust her with that knowledge. I know I could tell my other very close friends, and even a few family members, but what would be the point. Is it something they really need to know? A question only you can answer.

For me, if I want to be able to wear what I want, anywhere I want, then yes. I don't want this to be a hidden treasure that few people know about. Lots of people may think that what you wear shouldn't be such a big part of your life and that you should just dress your gender and stop worrying about it. But that's just the thing. For most people it isn't a big deal because they're just fine dressing like their gender. The only reason it's a big deal for me is because crossdressing is a hot button issue. And the more I think about the fact that the way I want to dress is only acceptable if I happen to have been born a female just burns me up.


Your comment regarding "a shameful lifestyle" actually says a lot, even tho I know you don't view it in this manner. Our society is still a rather Victorian, puritanical society when it comes to sex and gender roles. These viewpoints are drilled into us at an early age and is not easily swept aside. So. if you were to "force" this lifestyle on someone and make them accept it unconditionally, I maintain you will end up becoming isolated. So this is why I think acceptance of our lifestyle will just take time. I know I'll never see it...maybe you will, but don't turn away friendships because of this aspect of your personality. If you want acceptance, educate, don't force.

I don't feel that crossdressing is "forcing" it. It's all right if I let people know that crossdressing is okay, just as long as they don't actually see me doing it? I know my situation is a bit easier than a lot since I'm still young and single, but I have two parents, three siblings, a sister-in-law, two nieces and two grandparents that love me and care about me to this day. I don't want to upset them even though I've definitely done stuff to annoy them or disappoint them throughout my life. This is why I don't think it'll be selfish of me to let them know about my crossdressing. It may be a shock to them at first, but if I know them like I think I know them they will accept it. I'm not the same person I was 10 years ago and neither are they. People change over the years for one reason or another. When I come out of the closet it'll be a big change for me, too, not just them. Hell, for all I know I'll end up hating it and go back to dressing like I used to. But at least my crossdressing won't be a secret anymore. And I won't be shy about going out there and standing up for crossdresser's rights.

[urmilaaa2008]

If from childhood u feel trapped in a wrong body, u shouldnt think of getting into relationships, until u decide on which way u want to live. then only your parents r involved and they should be able to understand, if they really care for u. Even if they dont, if u decide to go on transistioning, it is perfectly OK and u cannot be called selfish.

Regarding a married married person. just dressing will not be a problem, if ur SO accepts it. If it goes further and leads to transitioning, then one should think of the family first. marriage and starting a family is your decision and u have made that commitment on your own as a man, without anybody forcing u to do that. In that case you it is your responsibility to honour your commitment as an husband, as a father and you dont have a right to say, i dont care and go into transitioning. that will be pure selfishness and insensitive

there is an interesting page on bill of rights, for cds and cds's wives
http://www.tri-ess.org/Wives_CDs_BofR.html

[Rhonda Jean]

To begin with a side note... Kaitlyn, I think the more we go back and forth on this the closer it appears we are.

On the whole issue of acceptance. In my own life, the amount of openness I freely express and the amount of acceptance I receive is inversely proportional to the distance from the center of my life, both from a physical distance standpoint and a personal relationship standpoint. I won't try to detail the exceptions, but there aren't many. I'm completely "out" when I'm a couple hundred miles away from home, but I won't even show my polished toes at the Wal-mart two miles from my house. I love interacting with women (strangers, more or less) when I'm away, but my lifelong best friend doesn't know.

I think we've benefitted greatly from the gay rights movement, though honoring that seems to weaken my position compared to Batty's. Kind of interesting that we've been able to benefit from that in large part because of a public misperception of us. Most of us aren't gay, but most of the public thinks we are.

Again, just from my own little personal standpoint, maybe it's a big pictue versus a small picture. Honestly, even as I begin to write this, I realize that this is another twist on the ME, ME theme. I'm a small picture type. It's not that I flat-out don't care how others are treated, particularly when it happens half way around the world, but I'm much more concerned about how I'm treated at the beauty shop 30 miles away. To a large degree, I think we make our own luck there. As my mother used to say, (You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar." It's certainly more within my control than how crossdressers are treated in Iran. And, frankly, just because I'm accepted there doesn't mean they'll accept all (or any other) crossdressers who walk through the door, nor should they be somehow forced to. Maybe, though, because of me it'll be a little easier on the next one. (WooHoo! Maybe I am an activist! Today the beauty shop, tomorrow the world!)

Again from a personal perception/experience standpoint... I've never encountered hatred (I'm excluding my ex from this observation). From a statistical standpoint, I know that the longer I go without encountering it, the closer I'm getting to it. I know it's out there. If I had, I'm sure that my pollyanna views would be rattled.

I'm always put off by in-your-face activism on any hot-button topic. That's just me. I think even if activism is your thing, there are quieter, better received ways of doing it.

Batty, I think we're on the same side. When you make the world a better place, I'll be riding your coat tail (skirt tail?). About all I can offer the cause is if you walk into my beauty shop maybe they'll think, "Oh, cool! We know about crossdressers! They're like Rhonda!"

[kellycan27]

Kelly, if for Michelle the CDing was just a hobby, a distasteful hobby according to her wife, that Michelle could take or leave then I agree with your point. But the CDing is an intrinsic part of who she is, and as a human being she does have the right to express herself. She can do so privately without shoving it down her wife's throat. She is not asking or trying to force her wife to participate. Michelle is merely asking to have the dignity to not have to lie about who she is, to not feel as if she is sneaking around doing something "bad". I'm sure if Michelle's wife engaged in activities that Michelle didn't approve of, as long as they were not illegal, Michelle would find something else to do when her wife chose to engage in these activities and it would not take away from the love she feels for her wife?

Obviously Michelle's wife doesn't see it that way. You obviously don't have a problem with it...she does. Had she (Michelle's wife) been given a choice in the first place maybe Michelle wouldn't find herself in the position that she is in. Had she been given a choice maybe she would gave opted not to go into a relationship with Michelle. You seem to be saying that because Michelle isn't doing anything illegal or immoral, that Her wife should just let her do what she wants.. because she has the right. You make it seem like Michelle's wife is the bad guy............ What about her right to not like it. If Michelle has the right to CD, then Michelle's wife has the right not to like it or have to put up with it no matter how or where she does it. I don't like smoking.. I wouldn't want an SO that smokes,not just because of the health issues,but because I find it disgusting. I would still have an issue with an SO that smoked behind my back ( or away from me if it sounds better) because even though it's not hurting me... I FIND IT DISGUSTING. If he kept it from me and he's "hooked"...... too bad. He shouldn't have kept it from me. He shouldn't have taken away my freedom to choose because she was being selfish..PERIOD. Michelle's wife's reasons for not accepting her cross dressing are irrelavent. The truth of the matter is freedom of choice. If Michelle wants to cd.. she should, even if that means splitting up with the wife.

[battybattybats]

I think we've benefitted greatly from the gay rights movement, though honoring that seems to weaken my position compared to Batty's. Kind of interesting that we've been able to benefit from that in large part because of a public misperception of us. Most of us aren't gay, but most of the public thinks we are.

A significant part of the reason the public thinks we are gay is because the Gay CDs and the straight TSs are the ones who have been braver and more public and did what many here consider selfish, they stood up and made people get used to their existence! And a big part of why we see less gay CDs called CDs is because they fought for and won acceptance under the title drag (from old stage CDing terms Dressed As Girl) and have generally a place amongst Gay communities and many of the law changes that protect us come specifcally because Gay Cis folk fought on behalf of the Gay CDs!

Straight Cds have let the Gay CDs down and Gay Cis picked up our slack despite being a smaller number!


Again, just from my own little personal standpoint, maybe it's a big pictue versus a small picture. Honestly, even as I begin to write this, I realize that this is another twist on the ME, ME theme. I'm a small picture type.

Gays worked on big picture and small picture stuff, it worked. Surely we can and should too?


It's not that I flat-out don't care how others are treated, particularly when it happens half way around the world, but I'm much more concerned about how I'm treated at the beauty shop 30 miles away.

What about the poorer darker skinned CDs in your area/state? They are the ones more likely to be murdered or assaulted or jobless by a massive degree.


To a large degree, I think we make our own luck there. As my mother used to say, (You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar."

Ah but there's the term intersections of discrimination! Those who suffer worst are those belong to 2 or more groups and that is multiplied not added together. Most TGs attacked are non-white.


It's certainly more within my control than how crossdressers are treated in Iran.

Your in a democrcy. You have a say in International Policy as much as any other thing in your country. It may be one of many things but your choices still count and join a cumulative effect. Iran may be less in your power to effect as it ignores the West regularly but Jamiaca is far more in your power to effect! It's ecnomy depends on the West. And in Jamaica mobs attack CDs with Machettes while police watch and shout encouragement!


And, frankly, just because I'm accepted there doesn't mean they'll accept all (or any other) crossdressers who walk through the door, nor should they be somehow forced to.

They are forced to on skin colour, ethnicity, religion and sex. Why not on CDing? Why is CDing a fair reason to have an exception?


Maybe, though, because of me it'll be a little easier on the next one. (WooHoo! Maybe I am an activist! Today the beauty shop, tomorrow the world!)

Actually you are right! That is activism! You are an activist! And we need both forms, law reform and public exposure, to succeed!


Again from a personal perception/experience standpoint... I've never encountered hatred (I'm excluding my ex from this observation). From a statistical standpoint, I know that the longer I go without encountering it, the closer I'm getting to it. I know it's out there. If I had, I'm sure that my pollyanna views would be rattled.

There are many aspects that raise or lower the chances that are not a matter of easy risk-avoidance. Skin colour is huge, income is another, what city you live is another, what laws are locally is another. And those most at risk with less power need those least at risk with more to make things safer!


I'm always put off by in-your-face activism on any hot-button topic. That's just me. I think even if activism is your thing, there are quieter, better received ways of doing it.

But when does it work? Proof of the pudding is in the eatting. History says the quitest approaches do nothing of value.


Batty, I think we're on the same side. When you make the world a better place, I'll be riding your coat tail (skirt tail?). About all I can offer the cause is if you walk into my beauty shop maybe they'll think, "Oh, cool! We know about crossdressers! They're like Rhonda!"

Every bit counts. Consider tiny donations to TG organisations. Your going out really does contribute. And being aware of that and taking it into account turns it from something done for the self (though not selfish) into something done also for the community too.

[ReineD]

You make it seem like Michelle's wife is the bad guy............ What about her right to not like it. If Michelle has the right to CD, then Michelle's wife has the right not to like it or have to put up with it no matter how or where she does it. I don't like smoking.. I wouldn't want an SO that smokes,not just because of the health issues,but because I find it disgusting.

Smoking is a bad habit that damages health. Crossdressing is not. Agreed the absolute best thing to do is to tell a partner at the beginning of a relationship and give the partner a choice as to whether or not she wants to commit to marriage with a CD. Anyone under 35 today, IMO, has no excuse not to tell before hand. There are so many resources on the internet to help TGs come to terms with who they are, unlike what it was like when Michelle was beginning her married life. And even Michelle said earlier that when she married she thought it would go away. She had no benefit of a forum such as this to know otherwise.

I am not making Michelle's wife out to be a bad guy. Of course she has the right to not like the CDing. If Michelle developed any condition that was difficult to deal with (health-wise), then Michelle's wife would have the right to not like that either. But it doesn't mean they, as a couple, wouldn't have to deal with it. They would not be expected to pretend "it" didn't exist. They would find ways to have both their needs met.

I have learned, in my 30 odd years of adulthood that no one has the right to tell someone else who they should be. Michelle's wife can only control her own actions, which would be to leave the marriage if she cannot stomach who her husband is. Again, if Michelle got into an accident and suffered debilitating physical changes, her wife would have the right to not like that too and leave. But, one would hope after 20 or 30 years of marriage, there would be a bit more compassion, a bit more loyalty. We are talking about Michelle's right to express who she inherently is, who she always was even though she may not have known it, who Michelle's wife fell in love with all these years ago; all the character and personality traits that were there all along. Not issues such as smoking, gambling, drinking, drugging, womanizing or wife-beating.

Michelle has not said she will stop being a husband to her wife. Michelle does not want to force her wife to participate in, or even see Michelle. Michelle only wants the dignity to not have to lie and sneak around about who she is. Now if Michelle wanted to stop being her wife's husband physically and emotionally, then you would have a point. But as far as I can see, Michelle's wife is not required to be exposed to anything she does not want to be exposed to.

Having said all this, no one in this forum can judge the delicate balance between Michelle and her wife. It will be up to them to prioritize their needs and strike the balance wherever it may fall. I sincerely hope they can work it out.

[Fab Karen]

"Are we invading others "space" by breaking with societal customary dress style? Or are they impeding our freedom to be who we want?"

Did inter-racial couples invade other's space? Did women wanting the right to vote, and even *gasp* to wear pants invade other's space? Did gay people going about their lives normally, not hiding & pretending, invade other's space?
The latter question, the people most impeding our freedom is US- imagination paired with fear holds some frozen in terror. Light a candle instead of cursing the darkness. Fear: False Evidence Appearing Real

[kellycan27]

Smoking is a bad habit that damages health. Crossdressing is not. Agreed the absolute best thing to do is to tell a partner at the beginning of a relationship and give the partner a choice as to whether or not she wants to commit to marriage with a CD. Anyone under 35 today, IMO, has no excuse not to tell before hand. There are so many resources on the internet to help TGs come to terms with who they are, unlike what it was like when Michelle was beginning her married life. And even Michelle said earlier that when she married she thought it would go away. She had no benefit of a forum such as this to know otherwise.

I am not making Michelle's wife out to be a bad guy. Of course she has the right to not like the CDing. If Michelle developed any condition that was difficult to deal with (health-wise), then Michelle's wife would have the right to not like that either. But it doesn't mean they, as a couple, wouldn't have to deal with it. They would not be expected to pretend "it" didn't exist. They would find ways to have both their needs met.

I have learned, in my 30 odd years of adulthood that no one has the right to tell someone else who they should be. Michelle's wife can only control her own actions, which would be to leave the marriage if she cannot stomach who her husband is. Again, if Michelle got into an accident and suffered debilitating physical changes, her wife would have the right to not like that too and leave. But, one would hope after 20 or 30 years of marriage, there would be a bit more compassion, a bit more loyalty. We are talking about Michelle's right to express who she inherently is, who she always was even though she may not have known it, who Michelle's wife fell in love with all these years ago; all the character and personality traits that were there all along. Not issues such as smoking, gambling, drinking, drugging, womanizing or wife-beating.

Michelle has not said she will stop being a husband to her wife. Michelle does not want to force her wife to participate in, or even see Michelle. Michelle only wants the dignity to not have to lie and sneak around about who she is. Now if Michelle wanted to stop being her wife's husband physically and emotionally, then you would have a point. But as far as I can see, Michelle's wife is not required to be exposed to anything she does not want to be exposed to.

Having said all this, no one in this forum can judge the delicate balance between Michelle and her wife. It will be up to them to prioritize their needs and strike the balance wherever it may fall. I sincerely hope they can work it out.

Your analogy is as bad as mine.. there again health. I am not saying that Michelle's wife should dictate what she should do. All I am saying is that she wasn't given a choice in the matter, and that she has the right to not like it or want any part of it without condemnation. Whether or not she is or isn't exposed to Michelle's crossdressing.. she still knows it's going on and for whatever reason... she finds it distasteful. Compromise would be nice, but if Michelle's wife doesn't want to compromise... she shouldn't have to, and she shouldn't be made out to look like the non-understanding one. I may be young and not have a zillion years of experience in these matters, but I DO have the ability to see BOTH sides of the coin....clearly and logically.

[ReineD]

she has the right to not like it or want any part of it without condemnation.

Well, at least we agree on one thing! :) :hugs:

[Satrana]

.
“…We spend our whole lives feeling awful about who we are…feeling a need to apologize to humanity for breaking the most basic social norm. Then when it comes time to empower ourselves and rise above every social teaching that has metastasized from society to our consciousness, we feel a great ache in our solar plexus – guilt. And ironically enough, the people who want to block us realize this better than we do, and they dig in for battle, throwing back at us our greatest fear…”How can you be so selfish???!!!” I say, how can we be so SELF-LESS!! We have spent a whole life trying to ease the sense of comfort in others by sacrificing our entire identity. If you don’t believe you are justified in being yourself, why should anyone else?”


That is a wonderful quotation. One of the big unsung issues of CDing is the guilt-trap which we create for ourselves and which others use against us. How often do we CDs hear someone hurling the selfish label against us because we dared to be ourselves and ask for respect. The selfish label is used as a put-down because we are not doing or behaving the way someone else wants us to - which makes the other person selfish in their motivation.

Invariably it is selfish people who use the label against others. Unselfish people try to understand, empathize even congratulate.

We all have a right to be ourselves. We all have a right to change as we develop a better understanding of who we are as we mature. This is true for all people not just CDs. We all change (often substantially) as we age. If my change is to stop having to live up to a false stereotype of what a "real" man is, how I am supposed to look like, how I am supposed to behave all in order to give comfort to others, then I know unselfish people will be happy for me knowing that I have found my path to happiness. And in doing so, I am in a much better situation to help others in their path to happiness.

The feminist movement pointed this all out decades ago. Women are told they had the right to reach their full potential and not to buckle to pressure to conform to female stereotypes. Why is it that CDs are forced to reinvent the wheel when we seek gender freedoms?

[ReineD]

Beautifully said, Shannon, and I agree with all your points, Satrana.

The trouble is there are different degrees, thus different definitions of selfishness and when people think of it in terms of how it affects them, they define selfishness according to their own experience. A SO whose CD husband goes over the top in a pink fog and ceases to consider his family's emotional needs and who spends a disproportionate amount of family income on wardrobe, or who believes that cyber-sex in gal mode is not 'cheating' will bristle at the idea that CDing is not selfish. It will be difficult for her to separate the CDing from her husband's self-centered attitudes. This SOs issue is entirely different than a SO who, as in your example, is homo/transphobic or morally opposed to the CDing and considers any expression of it to be self-centered.

I wonder if sometimes members who disagree in a thread like this have different definitions of self-centeredness in mind.

Ideally, the TG will be supported for being who she is while she maintains a healthy and loving relationship with her wife and considers her wife's needs. Or, if the TGs wife finds she cannot feel romantically attracted to her husband's femme expression, then at least she could support his need to be who s/he is and give her time and space to do this. And it is up to both of them to decide together the degree to which the TG outs herself, considering their life circumstances.

Being TG is not immoral nor is it perverted and the sooner society learns to accept this, the better. In my opinion, the immediate family members beginning with SOs should be the ones to first try to stretch and understand this, especially now since there are so many resources available as opposed to even 10 years ago. SOs know their TGs characters and I would hope in their hearts they would believe their husbands are not sick.

And last, if the TG wants to transition and no longer can maintain the husband/wife relationship that the wife signed up for, then I agree the best thing to do is to go their separate ways if the wife finds she cannot support the transition. Hopefully now that there is more information available, younger TSs (and of course CDS) will realize sooner who they are and will not enter a relationship with a SO without telling them.

[Stephanie Miller]

"And last, if the TG wants to transition and no longer can maintain the husband/wife relationship that the wife signed up for, then I agree the best thing to do is to go their separate ways if the wife finds she cannot support the transition."

Sounds like a one-way street to me. If the TG "signed up" and if the TG wants to transition is she showing total "self" regard? And - not showing consideration to the SO who signed up for "till death do us part" in good faith also? (Let's not even go into the realm of breaking up a family if there is one.)

[ReineD]

Sounds like a one-way street to me. If the TG "signed up" and if the TG wants to transition is she showing total "self" regard? And - not showing consideration to the SO who signed up for "till death do us part" in good faith also? (Let's not even go into the realm of breaking up a family if there is one.)

I agree. It is a very difficult situation but I cannot see another way. Also, please read my entire post and not just take one sentence out of context.

Simply put, it is best if they each can find a balance or a compromise. But to have it totally one way or the other when it concerns something as essential to a person's being as gender is not realistic. Not every TG can choose to just put the CDing aside.

The bulk of my post addressed CDs who would not consider transition. But, I felt it best to also include the TS scenario, since this forum is filled with TGs who are across the spectrum, and it is sometimes easy to read one's own slant into someone else's words unless everything is spelled out.

I was also careful to point out that ideally, especially with the resources available today, GGs will not find out 10 years or more from now that their husbands are TG. But we are unfortunately still at a crossroads since there are many long-term marriages now where TGs honestly felt 15 or 30 years ago that the CDing was something that would go away.

Also do remember the high divorce rate in our culture and many other factors can come into the decision to divorce, on top of the CDing. I do not recommend divorce as the preferred solution to marital difficulties and I fully understand the heartbreak it brings especially to the children.

[kellycan27]

The feminist movement pointed this all out decades ago. Women are told they had the right to reach their full potential and not to buckle to pressure to conform to female stereotypes. Why is it that CDs are forced to reinvent the wheel when we seek gender freedoms?

The gays did it, the feminists did it, so why shouldn't cross dressers? Should they just be able to ride on the backs of the gays and feminists to achieve their freedom? If this issue is so important to cross dressers shouldn't they be out there fighting for their rights? Seems to me that there are an awful lot of people sitting on their butts complaining about how unfair society is, but won't lift a finger to help themselves.. just blame others for their woes and their nonacceptance. They come up with all kinds of phobias and moral objections that may be true in some cases... But I believe it to be the exception more than the rule. There are a lot of us out there living our lives the way we want to live them without being persecuted or lynched. How many threads do we read right here alone where girls are getting out there and having positive experiences rather than negative? The gays and feminists showed some balls and intestinal fortitude to get what they wanted....
It would be very interesting to know how many of these complainers were actually out there experiencing all this so called hate rather than hiding in a closet or behind drawn blinds.

[ReineD]

Stephanie and Kelly, I am curious to know your thoughts on a few points.

Do you feel that for the most part, CDs and TSs know and accept their transness at a young age and if they marry in their 20s they are deliberately lying to their wives if they do not tell them the full extent of their desires?

If yes, do you feel this would also have been the case pre-internet days before TGs knew they were not alone?

Do you disagree that some TGs struggle for years hoping it will go away and they go through repetitive cycles of purging? That they are ashamed of telling their loved ones because they feel that it is is an aberration?

Do you agree or disagree that CDing becomes more powerful with time especially if it is suppressed for many years?

And last, do you believe that if a TG has struggled with this for many years and later on in life does come to the realization that she cannot continue to ignore or avoid it, and her wife does not approve, then she must at all costs continue to suppress it?

I'm not trying to be rude or flip, but you both seem to be comfortable with who you are and it surprises me that you do not wish to consider that in a marriage, the wife also has a responsibility to try to understand her husband if he has struggled all of his life? I am speaking here mostly of older people who did not have the benefit of the internet when they were first getting into relationships.

Or have I mistaken your points?

Please take my questions in the spirit they are intended. I would very much like to understand your point of view. :hugs:

[Stephanie Miller]

Oh come now Reine... I don't look upon ANY good dialog as being rude. It is what it is suppose to be. Just that.... a dialog. Good healthy back and forth. I appreciate all you and the others have added to this thread.
As for your questions.. It will be interesting to read Kelly's vs. mine since we come from such different eras. Her from the modern world and me........ from the stone age. She is smart and articulate so it will be good to see.
Although I do have to add Kelly, that you're last post made it seem like crossdresers were slouches because gays jumped on a bandwagon as old as the hills before the CD's. This bandwagon of " I am not being treated the way I see I should". Take the blacks and slavery or the Irish as immigrants, the women and voting, Indians and reservations etc. etc.. I think women have made great strides since cavemen days and being drug around by their hair by Thor. (May not be totally accurate, but you get my drift) And I don't see the bandwagon slowing down after CD's get done either. We all depend on each other in our own ways.
Now back to the questions... I do think that in today's world with the resources available there should be a lot less ignorance and a massive amount of acceptance on transgender topics by not only those living it but those not. I also think there will always be denial by those who are, as social pressure is always there to some degree.
How can I NOT agree that TSs struggle. I lived (and still live) it, I hear of too many that lived it that still live it. The social ignorance is still there (albeit not as heavy as 20 and 30 years ago when I went through it ). There are a heck of a lot of things in life that are a struggle. Suck it up and work through it! I get real tired of hearing people whine because the world isn't going their way and think everyone should bend because of little ol' me not getting my way. But I also believe things can change - if pursued the correct way. Not just because the masses rolled over and accepted because of whining.
More powerful in time? Don't know. I know my urge to CD has not changed. The amount of time I can be my other self has changed, therefore it is in the forefront of my thought pattern more. It is out in the open for me to see and hear more too. It's kind of like smoking. ( I know it's not the same - but work with the analogy here) When I quit it was a lot easier to not crave when in a non-smoking area than when playing poker and everyone else was puffing away. So maybe it's harder to put the urges aside now-a-days.
But before I get pigionholed into everyone thinking all my answers are from the point of a "satisfied crossdresser", let me explain. I feel I am NOT a CD. I feel I am a TS that is going through life because of the choices AND OBLIGATIONS I made before learning what this CD/TS/TG thing was all about. I go through life everyday - every minute wishing I was totally female 24/7. I was born in the wrong body. But, because of the commitments/obligations I've made early in life and the people that it would hurt if I did not follow through with my earlier choices. I'm living life the best I can. And I treat others the best I can. The pain is mine. Not theirs. I do not fault those that feel differently on how to lead their lives. That is what we do as sisters here. Stand together and support. :love:

[kellycan27]

Stephanie and Kelly, I am curious to know your thoughts on a few points.

Do you feel that for the most part, CDs and TSs know and accept their transness at a young age and if they marry in their 20s they are deliberately lying to their wives if they do not tell them the full extent of their desires?

If yes, do you feel this would also have been the case pre-internet days before TGs knew they were not alone?

Do you disagree that some TGs struggle for years hoping it will go away and they go through repetitive cycles of purging? That they are ashamed of telling their loved ones because they feel that it is is an aberration?

Do you agree or disagree that CDing becomes more powerful with time especially if it is suppressed for many years?

And last, do you believe that if a TG has struggled with this for many years and later on in life does come to the realization that she cannot continue to ignore or avoid it, and her wife does not approve, then she must at all costs continue to suppress it?

I'm not trying to be rude or flip, but you both seem to be comfortable with who you are and it surprises me that you do not wish to consider that in a marriage, the wife also has a responsibility to try to understand her husband if he has struggled all of his life? I am speaking here mostly of older people who did not have the benefit of the internet when they were first getting into relationships.

Or have I mistaken your points?

Please take my questions in the spirit they are intended. I would very much like to understand your point of view. :hugs:

I am not blaming the CD for their circumstance. I really feel for those who found or find it necessary to keep secrets. I believe that many have struggled for years. My whole point is that a wife or SO shouldn't be made the villian because she cannot accept the facts.. no matter what her reason.It seems that the wife or SO is always the one who is at fault when problems with this thing arise. She doesn't understand,she has some kind of phobia. Obviously it isn't something that everyone is comfortable with (as witnessed by the many "I got my ass thrown out" threads). Educating someone who is not comfortable with it, may or may not have the desired results. They may understand the cder's need to cd, but that isn't nesessarily going to make them accept the fact.

Let's use me as an example. I have been around here for a little while. Read the threads, and I believe I have a fair understanding of CDer's,their problems and their desires. I don't think that there is anything wrong with CDing if that's what you do,but................. I wouldn't want a CD for a husband or an SO. It's just not in my personal notion of what an SO should be. He may be smart,funny,a good provider, a great guy, and a pillar of the community,but the CDing would be a deal breaker for me.
Now say I found out after the fact.......I would be feel cheated because I wasn't given the opportunity to choose. Now my choices are to live with something I don't like, or break the relationship. I lose either way, and so does he. I don't blame the CDer for his CDing... ok he can't help it. Don't blame me for not accepting it,because whatever it is in me that can't accept it... I can't help either. Am I supposed to be the bigger person, and be unhappy,because he can't help being a CDer?
If compromise ( and I mentioned this before) can be achieved....AWESOME!
If not, it would be sad and a parting of the ways would be best. Neither party should be be blamed.. it just wasn't meant to be. I DO NOT believe that the wife should shoulder the responsibility just because the CDer has struggled all his life if the wife doesn't feel comfortable with his CDing. it's not fair that she be unhappy because of something that is no fault of hers.Life is too short to be unhappy.and before you get riled up.. I am not blaming the CDer for being a CDer.. just the luck of the draw.

[Satrana]

The gays did it, the feminists did it, so why shouldn't cross dressers? Should they just be able to ride on the backs of the gays and feminists to achieve their freedom? There is a difference between breaking through society's ignorance and prejudices with a new idea of gender freedom/equality and sexuality equality/freedom and then for subsequent groups to have to fight the same battles again when the principal has already been established. That is like saying the civil rights movement only granted rights to blacks, so Latinos, Asians, Arabs have to go through the same battles to get equality too? That is a silly notion.


Seems to me that there are an awful lot of people sitting on their butts complaining about how unfair society is, but won't lift a finger to help themselves that is always the case, the number of activists are always a small percentage of the whole. It is human nature


There are a lot of us out there living our lives the way we want to live them without being persecuted or lynched. There is a big difference between those who live a TG life full time or have found their self acceptacne and those who move to and fro and remain closeted. If a CD turns up for work in a skirt then he has a high chance of being persecuted.

CDs find themselves in a bind. Having being forced into the closet by society's prejudices they spend a life projecting only a masculine personality and usually have too much invested in it to change by the time they eventually reach a stage of self acceptance.

[Jonianne]

.......one thought i have about it is why don't hunter's have to answer that question? why don't golfers have to answer it? musicians?.......

Actually sometimes they do. I remember the speed skater Dan Jansen who pretty much spent fulltime training through 4 winter olympics to win that gold metal he desperatly wanted. His wife stuck with him and supported him through all of it, but in the end they divorced.

It's the same question. Was he selfish to spend so much time trying to win the gold? Or was that something he was born to do? Sometimes when you win, you lose.

Sometimes, there are no perfect answers.

On this thread, what is so good to see, are GM's trying to see the situation from the SO's point of view and the GW's in defence of the cd'ers. Everyone striving to be empathatic is what helps build understanding.

[kellycan27]

There is a difference between breaking through society's ignorance and prejudices with a new idea of gender freedom/equality and sexuality equality/freedom and then for subsequent groups to have to fight the same battles again when the principal has already been established. That is like saying the civil rights movement only granted rights to blacks, so Latinos, Asians, Arabs have to go through the same battles to get equality too? That is a silly notion.

You are not going to break through society's ignorance, and prejudice by hiding in the closet and complaining. the gays and feminists got out there up close and personal and looked society right in the eye.. and demanded acceptance. They got beaten up,killed,persecuted and prosecuted,but did they give up? No. I am not suggesting that crossdressers start from scratch.The gays,and feminists,blacks, latino's ,arabs and whomever have already paved the way. If crossdressers want acceptance They are going to have to get out there and take the bull by the horns. I don't understand why you feel that crossdressers are a special case. I am not saying that it is going to be easy.. people are going to suffer. I think that society is changing for the better,it's not perfect,but it is much more accepting than it was 20 or 30 years ago. How are fearful,closeted crossdressers ever going to see this if the continue to cling to old notions,spread fear amongst themselves, and not venture out? There are lot of cross dressers living and working in the mainstream in and around society. They are the ones who are going to gain acceptance,just by the mere fact that they are out and about showing society that they are just as normal as the next person. As my mother used to tell me...... can't never did anything. I personally know a lot of crossdressers that are out and about.. They have jobs,friends,families, and nobody seems to want to kill them.As I mentioned before...look at the number of crossdressers right here that have worked up the courage to show themselves..without negative results. I know that this won't be possible in all cases..there is still a lot of work to be done.



that is always the case, the number of activists are always a small percentage of the whole. It is human nature

If that's the case..it looks like ,them that's got,shall get. if people are not willing to stand up out of fear.... what do they expect? I don't think that the fearful ones will benefit from society being accepting to begin with. I believe that it has more to do with self acceptance rather than societal acceptance.

There is a big difference between those who live a TG life full time or have found their self acceptance and those who move to and fro and remain closeted. If a CD turns up for work in a skirt then he has a high chance of being persecuted.

CDs find themselves in a bind. Having being forced into the closet by society's prejudices they spend a life projecting only a masculine personality and usually have too much invested in it to change by the time they eventually reach a stage of self acceptance.

[B] It's unfortunate that there are those who still cling to what has happened in the past. It's a catch 22 for them. They want change,but are unwilling to seek change,because of past prejudices. How would social acceptance change things for these people? These people that have too much invested to change..even if they want to? Kind of like closing the barn door after the horse got out, wouldn't you agree? What I find even more unfortunate is these closeted and fearful types keeping the fear alive, and spreading it to those who still have a chance to live the life that they wish to live. If one hides in a closet and and peeks out though closed blinds.... How could they possibly know how accepting society is or isn't? We who are full time TG have not always been full time.... We came up through the ranks just like everyone else. we just didn't wake up transgendered and breezing though life. We suffered the same pain and indignities as the next person. We may be on a different level now, but we didn't have any magic pills to get us to this point.... desire,need and intestinal fortitude is more like it.[B]

Sorry if my quoting is a bit messy....
Kelly

[ReineD]

I feel I am NOT a CD. I feel I am a TS that is going through life because of the choices AND OBLIGATIONS I made before learning what this CD/TS/TG thing was all about. I go through life everyday - every minute wishing I was totally female 24/7. I was born in the wrong body. But, because of the commitments/obligations I've made early in life and the people that it would hurt if I did not follow through with my earlier choices. I'm living life the best I can. And I treat others the best I can. The pain is mine. Not theirs.

So how can you possibly be happy living like this? :sad: Using the smoking analogy, I can't imagine going through life craving something that I cannot have (I used to smoke and believe me I know how horrible it is to have that craving, empty feeling when you quit). I mean most people can put up with the uncomfortableness for a while, but they know it will go away eventually. I was a bear when I quit smoking the first time. So how can you be happy, being present in your life to your family, friends, job, etc when internally all you think of is being Steph? Isn't this terribly, terribly difficult? Does it lessen the enjoyment you get from the other areas of your life?



If compromise ( and I mentioned this before) can be achieved....AWESOME!
If not, it would be sad and a parting of the ways would be best. Neither party should be be blamed.. it just wasn't meant to be. I DO NOT believe that the wife should shoulder the responsibility just because the CDer has struggled all his life if the wife doesn't feel comfortable with his CDing. it's not fair that she be unhappy because of something that is no fault of hers.

I understand what you are saying, Kelly. But it isn't as simple as just saying, "That's it! You can CD and I can't live with it so let's split up", especially when their lives and finances are very much intertwined, and especially if they have kids. If it is a young couple and they are both working, fine. But if the couple have been together for decades, it is harder. And if you throw Love into it, it makes things a lot more complicated. So they love each other and if it wasn't for the CDing, everything would be fine. Do you let something like CDing ruin a good marriage? It wouldn't be fair to have it all one way OR the other. So the answer is to compromise. If the wife can't live with it, then she should give her husband space and time that they both agree with, and in turn he won't ask her to participate. I agree that no one should be blamed.

I suppose in a CDing marriage, both parties could be selfish. He could insist on dressing every day, breaking the bank with the clothes, spend all his evenings on line shopping and in CD sites or going out with the girls, and tell his wife to take it or leave it. Or, she can say "I absolutely forbid you to even think about it and I don't want you to ever mention it to me ever again, and I'll do my best to catch you on it so don't even think about hiding it. I'll watch you like a hawk."

You see Kelly? It can't be all black or white or a divorce. When couples are faced with an issue like this, both of them need to find ways to work it out. If they love each other. She gets no exposure to it at all if she doesn't want to be involved, and he dresses less than he would if she was accepting, but at least he doesn't have to lie to her and they can preserve their marriage. Also, don't forget the reason so many wives are against this is because of social conditioning and lack of exposure. I guarantee you that if a non supportive wife can at least bring herself to give her husband space to do this (even if she never sees him dressed), eventually she will see that the sky won't come crashing down on her and he is in the end of it all the same person. There are lots of stories in this forum where wives such as I've described lost their fears bit by bit over time. But she has to be willing to give a little too.



CDs find themselves in a bind. Having being forced into the closet by society's prejudices they spend a life projecting only a masculine personality and usually have too much invested in it to change by the time they eventually reach a stage of self acceptance.

Once again, you have a way of explaining things that makes perfect sense to me! :)



On this thread, what is so good to see, are GM's trying to see the situation from the SO's point of view and the GW's in defence of the cd'ers. Everyone striving to be empathatic is what helps build understanding.

This is so true! Don't you just love this forum? :)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I havent seen such a civiilized debate on this thorny topic!! :daydreaming:

I won't post alot of quotes, but I wonder if I could chime in on a couple things...its not black and white and your feelings on this stuff are colored by your own personal experience.

I am 47...i've heard alot of people jump on me that I got married and had kids and that it was irresponsible of me....well i agree....i would not want my SO to disclose 20 years into our marraige that she is really a man.

but the hard truth was that 21 years ago i wasnt even aware that there were so many people like me...i suffered in almost utter silence, and I thought in my mind that I was doomed to live as a man...so i lived as a man...there was no internet (or very little)...i had read some articles but that was it...i just didnt know there was an alternative...

this is not my wife's fault, i never ever blamed her for it....i overcompensated and spent ALL my free time with her...and she loved me for it...and i loved being with her....(which is maybe why i am bitter about the drunks and golfers and stayaway husbands that are happily accepted in their lives).
today we are apart, but we are very friendly, our emotional bond is strong and permanent and she has decided to forgive me and move on...and i'm simply thankful for it..i hope if the roles were switched that i would be as tolerant.

as far as considering yourself TS and putting others ahead of you....

This is life threatening and difficult posiiton to be in for the TS person (and yes the loved ones too)..a TS person is a woman...forced to live as a man because of her "other parts"....this is unsustainable long term

the noose only gets tighter...if you don't accept it early(which many young folks now do because of all the support and info out there, and even then its courageous) the sinking feeling of being trapped and lifeless comes sooner or later...it gets worse and worse, it just does, its almost like your survival instinct kicking in,.....so be careful what you say....if you are a woman in your mind, this is your fate.

i used to think the same way as you Stephanie, but I was fooling myself....my job, my family, my beloved Phillies..what good are they if I'm totally completely dead inside?? what good am I to anybody else if my whole person is just a facade?

the last three years before i accepted myself and started to transition were the worst i could imagine, i would not wish those years on my worst enemy.....go back and read my first posts years ago about how happy i was to "go on an adventure", and "feel like a woman"...i called it "TS lite"...hahaha :sad:..not funny at all

i did not expect this to happen..some relatives called me weak for "giving in"...i cant look at it that way.... I know too many people in the cd and ts community, and i've seen it over and over and over..you can quit smoking, you can't quit being yourself.

i'm in therapy groups with 70+ year old transitioners that are incredibly bitter and unhappy that they didnt do this years ago..it's so sad to talk to my oldest friends, some of them truly feel like it would have been better to never live...that's how bad they felt over their lives...i will not suffer that fate.

for the TS woman, like it or not, this is the choice you are making...i feel terrible saying this, but i beleive its the reality of our condition

:hugs:
Kate

[Stephanie Miller]

"Does it lessen the enjoyment you get from the other areas of your life?"

And now we go full circle to my main question...
Why do we feel our choice of lifestyle - because we are comfortable with it or we need to become our true selves - comes first.

Reine: I started smoking when I was 13. Stopped cold turkey a 2 pack a day, with cigars and pipes also when I was 33. Main thing that made me finally quit? Had my first baby and felt she should have a daddy, as long as I did my part. Smoking didn't fit the recipe for long life. Still crave smokes but there are things in life that come first.
Reine - Kate,
How can I live like this? It's hard, real hard. I feel my job suffers ( Don't give it my full attention while surfing fashion adds for starters :heehee:) I do whatever I can to gain some balance in marrage. I don't put it in anyones face so it comes back and backlashes on my kids, grandkids, workers etc. Nobody ever said lifes a bowl of cherries. ( Forest Gump came close though :doh:). And I don't feel the world is my oyster and mine alone. I understand what you are saying Kate about how you feel better. I'm happy for you it worked. Maybe in my next life I will be born the way I want. Maybe in the next life the parapalegics of the world won't feel they were delt a shitty hand either. But like them - I can't do anything about it. Or would it be more correct to say because of who I am, and the cards I was delt - there isn't anything I can do about it and feel right inside doing it. They live it every day too. And they forge ahead and hold their heads up high. I intend to also. So I guess a long story short - sure I transition - sure I could feel wonderful ( I would hope that would be the outcome), but do I think others would suffer in other ways more because of it than they suffer with my "facade"? I think I come to the table with more to offer than gender. I don't feel less of a person or offer a different feeling hug to my grandkids because its Papa instead of Stephanie. I don't say I love you to my wife with any less sincerety to my wife because I'm in this body. I feel I would gain something by transitioning BUT there is sooo much more to lose because of prior obligations. So in the end am I being more selfish to me than to others by transitioning - or being more selfish to others than myself by not? Knowone wants to be labled "selfish" - that's why this thread has taken off.
:love: Steph

[kellycan27]

At this point i believe it is time for me opt out of this thread.. I have an SO, that knows all about me. (kind of hard to hide it for very long even had I tried) :heehee:
My life did come first, but did not involve another person or children. I found my way and began my transition before involving another. Not necessarily by design,but rather happenstance. It's just the way it worked out.

Reine
Some good points that I will have to ponder. The rest of you girls...Thanks.:hugs:

Stephanie

Very good Thread, fun and friendly Thanks!

Kelly

[ReineD]

Kelly, I very much appreciated reading your point of view too, and I'm glad that you were able to punch trough the wall to be the person you were meant to be.
:love:

[Stephanie Miller]

A lifetime of love and happiness to you Kelly. See ya in the next thread :hugs:
God Bless

P.S. Still lookin' forward to that drink in Vegas with you!:tongueout

[AKASadieGG]

Well here is my honest thought coming from a GG perspective on the many different posts I've read. I am an accepting wife. I have known and have participated in my husband CD life for many years. It has not always been easy for either one of us but we go on trying. I see that many of you talk about how important it is to be accepted by your S/O and how important it is to come to an agreement about boundries you can both feel comfortable with. Then in the next breath when some of you decide to push the boundries you expect us to accept part and parcel whatever it is that you decide you need now to make you happy and if and when we are not comfortable with that we are the villians. No, I have not had to "live it" but I do "live with it" . In my relationship I don't expect or want everything to be MY WAY. Do you not think that there are alot of you who expect it to be YOUR WAY or NO WAY. Anyway, this is what I'm getting from reading, not from all but from enough of you so that it's scaring me and making me wonder if this is what's in store for me. I hope not.

[ReineD]

Welcome Way2real! :)

You express what many GG SOs experience and there are threads in the forum that will prove your point. But in this particular thread, it was my impression that many TGs were arguing from the non-accepting SOs POV, asking why SHOULD she be forced to support the CDing when it is uncomfortable for her to do so. :hugs:

[Satrana]

I don't understand why you feel that crossdressers are a special case. I was not arguing this at all, rather there is no need for any group including CDs to have to battle the way women and gays had to in order to break through the stubborn walls of societal prejudices. CDs still need to stand up and demand their rights but they should expect their rights to be acknowledged and granted over a period of time as part of society's progressive tolerance to differences. This is exactly what has happened. TGs have secured many legal rights without there being any meaningful TG movement and society's values will change in time simply through exposure and education to TGs.


I personally know a lot of crossdressers that are out and about.. They have jobs,friends,families, and nobody seems to want to kill them. Quite correct, society tolerates TGs so many fears of CDs leaving the closet are overblown. However that does not mean that our situation is rosy. Those who leave the closet will most likely lose some family and friends, and they may have to had to switch careers to find a job that would accommodate them. Their SOs and children will likely have had to fight against the negative stigma. This is not an easy decision and every person has to weigh the benefits and the deficits and for many the correct decision for them personally is to stay hidden.

Kelly, you speak from the viewpoint of a full time TG. Most CDs are nowhere near this level of transgenderness that would make going full time the correct decision. Mostly they are ok with being male and enjoy some masculine behaviors, past-times etc. They are what I call tomgirls - men who want the freedom and acceptance to act girly when they choose to do so. Some are content with temporary and infrequent dressing and so staying in the closet works just fine even though it is less than ideal. Life is not fair, compromise is often needed not just in personal relationships but how they interact with society, many are OK with this balance.