Being a guy vs. being a jerk

[Ze]

Something else I've been mulling over for a while. This is more a ramble than anything else. Everybody's free to chime in.

To help me pass as a guy, I've been watching my cismale peers at college, most of which are white and spoiled. (i.e. Mummy and Daddims are paying their way through. Oi.)

It could be for a multitude of reasons, I'm sure, but it finally dawned on me: the peers I "should" be emulating in order to pass are nothing but sexist, rude, over-privileged, narcissistic jerks. No, this isn't really a surprise to me since I've been studying blind privilege and senses of entitlement for so long, but I guess it finally hit home for me.

Granted, I'm from lower-middle class (a far cry from most of these guys), but it seems that even if you don't come from money, you should act like it. So I'm getting the message that, in order to pass like my peers, I'm supposed to act this terrible.

Well I'm not doing it. I'm a gentleman and a nice guy. I take care of my appearance when I know it'll matter. I watch my language and conversation topics in front of mixed company and children. When I find myself in conversations that demean women or minorities, I speak up in their defense (provided I'm pretty sure I won't get the crap beaten out of me for saying so). I open doors for ladies, the elderly, and anybody that has their arms full. I don't leave my messes for other people to clean up. When somebody needs help, I help them. I view the world with equality; nobody is below me, nobody is above me.

And I know all of this is hurting my passability. But I simply can't function like a "normal" guy my age. I wasn't born with the blind privilege that I'd be treated better than everybody else for unfair reasons. And since I wasn't given that privilege, I won't and can't take it for granted.

I know the world itself seems to be at a loss for manners anymore, but I also know in my unfortunate female past that when I did the above kind things, it was just expected of me. I was supposed to bow down to the "elite" of the world. Now as a guy, I get weird looks.

I'm really, really hoping this whole jerk issue is just a temporary product of sex, age, skin color, class, etc. Because if it's meant to be a permanent fix, I'm screwed.

But I'm still proud of being a polite boy. So there. :ner:

[NiCo]

Dude. See growing up in Scotland, we were taught to be polite, to treat people equally or our parents beat the utter $%^& out of us. Yes, it’s true. So you’ll probably find that your behaviour seems completely normal to me, the holding doors open, giving seats up to women and elderly in the bus and in general, being kind and considerate. Males were especially taught to be respectful! The females got it a bit easier.

Then I moved to England.

I’m not saying that everywhere in England is like this. I’ve lived in a variety of places and they have different ways of showing their consideration etc.

Also, I’m not even from the lower-middle class, I’m more likely to be from the middle-lower class lol…but when I moved to England, they were like, higher than me but not by much, so maybe their little more spoiltness contributed to their different attitudes.

I agree with you though, I wont change from a reasonable amount of politeness to “bold” as I would say. It’s embarrassing to watch them react with pure disrespect.

Anyway, I might offend a few people with this post but this is just my opinion from what I’ve seen with my own eyes.

My discipline levels were far more than most receive these days. We were grateful for having coal fires, cause coal fires was better than no fire [whereas most of the kids had central heating WTF?!] I had a black and white tv in my bedroom…wow, eh? AND a colour one in our living room! :D

These rich kids don’t get enough discipline, and nor do the poorer kids. Unless they come from a different region of the country. In which case, I’m talking about the UK.

I wouldn’t really know about the US, cause all I have done is watched movies, but obviously you don’t judge a place by what you see in a fictional movie LOL…

But yeah Ze, don’t change yourself to fit in, why would anyone want to go from being polite to ignorant? It baffles me! I think you are awesome the way you are…and if people can’t see that then they should $%^& off, they aren’t worth it!

[Holding doors open for women and being polite and respectful is more likely to land you with a partner (you keep saying it's hard for you to get one) than any of these idiots… and you will also be taken more seriously in time when people see you are worth more than the FOOLS. I can understand if it makes you angry, their attitudes, cause it pisses me off too lol]

Edit: Sorry I rambled *cries*

[Ze]

Naw, NiCo, that was great! :thumbsup: And thanks for the kind words. You're very, very right. You said some of the stuff better than what I was attempting to do.

And I forgot to mention that I'm in the States. So yeah, I was also curious about cultural differences. :)

[Kieron Andrew]

Well I'm not doing it. I'm a gentleman and a nice guy. I take care of my appearance when I know it'll matter. I watch my language and conversation topics in front of mixed company and children. When I find myself in conversations that demean women or minorities, I speak up in their defense (provided I'm pretty sure I won't get the crap beaten out of me for saying so). I open doors for ladies, the elderly, and anybody that has their arms full. I don't leave my messes for other people to clean up. When somebody needs help, I help them. I view the world with equality; nobody is below me, nobody is above me.

And I know all of this is hurting my passability. But I simply can't function like a "normal" guy my age. I wasn't born with the blind privilege that I'd be treated better than everybody else for unfair reasons. And since I wasn't given that privilege, I won't and can't take it for granted.Dude anyone that has met me and knows me well knows i am a old school gentleman, i am not overtly masculine or macho, i don't follow the herd or try to emulate other men, because I am my own man and i wont change...you don't need to be a jerk to pass, not in the slightest



I'm still proud of being a polite boy. So there. :ner:and so you should be proud!

[Stacyy]

I open doors for ladies, the elderly, and anybody that has their arms full. I don't leave my messes for other people to clean up. When somebody needs help, I help them. I view the world with equality; nobody is below me, nobody is above me.

And I know all of this is hurting my passability.

Its not hurting your passability at all, you act like a real gentleman - nothing can make you pass better. You act better than the guys of your age, be proud of it. So be a gentleman and dont worry about passing :)

[pamela_a]

IMO this world NEEDS more guys like you. I was taught to be polite and helpful and somehow that's fallen by the wayside.
As for passability. I'd accept you as a gentleman far quicker than as a jerk anyday. :hugs:

Continue being who you are. Being a jerk doesn't make you more of a guy...it just makes you a jerk

-Pam-

[Ze]

Yay! The world isn't in as much of a shambles as I'd thought! :w00t:

It's good to know that there are still a few people in the world that use and appreciate common decency. :) Hopefully my college is just a mess of spoiled brats. (Um...yay? :eek: Good thing it's my last year there.)

[Lorileah]

I agree with the above. Consider this, you want to pass, passing means blending so as you aren't overtly noticed, you noticed the jerks, thus they would NOT be "passing". (damn math got into this again). Works on our side too. Many of the girls here want to pass, not be noticed when out, some of us want to be seen (yes I am one, if I spend the time getting dressed up someone better notice) yet to do that I have to look like what most women would consider...overdressed? Flamboyant? ****ty? It is all in how you want to be perceived. 90% of the guys on your campus go through the day unnoticed, just living. The guys you "see" are making themselves obvious. Some GG's find this attractive and that reinforces the behavior. Yet, over time, if you notice, these relationships don't last. Look who stays together...the geeks ( sorry geeks :)). They play the same games, eat the same foods, watch the same movies, and they don't beat the crap out of the other (either physically or mentally). The life of a "player" looks good and when you are young you don't consider long term effects. And IF you survive (some of the things these guys do seems like it should be natures way of eliminating the idiots) and you mature, being loud and obnoxious mellows until you are with a bunch of males in a bar. Then the "how high up on the tree" comes back.

I know you and I know that being an ass isn't what you want. But it gets attention...the wrong attention I would say but that is the same thing I am told about me. Remember my "secret" I told you? I didn't get to go with her by being an arrogant macho moronic jerk. I was shy and self effacing. So being yourself is much more attracting than being John Blutarski.

Dang I haven't had that soapbox out for weeks

[Scotty]

You know I've used to say "I may be a nice guy, but I sleep well at night".
(Now I can be a nice girl too!)

But sometimes guys just are jerks, and don't MEAN to be.

If they do something once and are a jerk it's just being a guy, but if it's how they live their life - they are just jerks.

[Ze]

If they do something once and are a jerk it's just being a guy, but if it's how they live their life - they are just jerks.

This is the little bit I disagree with. Well, I do agree that there's a difference between jerks and guys that do occasional jerky things, but I just don't like chalking up a jerk moment to "being a guy." I don't believe in free passes for being disrespectful to others, otherwise they might become more and more disrespectful because they either know they can get away with it or don't realize how mean they're being. (This is just my perspective based on what I've been seeing at my college.)

Now if they realize their mistake after being called out on it and try to make up for it and behave from now on, I'm all for it. :)

But yeah, I like how you said you can sleep at night. I can definitely relate to that. (I don't know how the jerks can sleep at night! :eek: )

[Sheila]

Ze, carry on being the man you are, I am Scottish like Nico (just I support a better football team than him :tongueout:tongueout Nico). It is also the way I brought my eldest son up and the way I am bringing my youngest up, and he is doing just fine :). Let the louts (rich or not) carry on being just that LOUTS

[4serrus]

Solution: find another group of cisguys to emulate.

Seriously, if somebody told me that if I wanted to be seen as a real man I had to act like some high-horse trust fund kiddie with a stick shoved so far up my ass I couldn't bend over properly I'd punch them in the goddamn face.

[AmandaM]

Interesting. I'm part Native American so my Asian friends tell me stuff. One viewpoint is that white American males behave poorly. I know that's probably a stereotype, but I have seen a "trend" myself. I'm sure it goes across all races and nationalities. But, y'know, the working class or lower-middle class I find, usually act better. I don't know why. Maybe it has to with the upper-classes having to act that way to succeed in business, etc. I don't know. Maybe it's just my personal experiences.

[Tamara Croft]

There's nothing nicer than an old school gentleman. I love having doors opened for me, my seat pulled out and pushed in at restaurants etc... having the car door opened and closed for me (although that's probably being a bit snobby lol)... alas... someone should tell my Tam :Angry3:

[Misty is Kindafem]

Boys are very competitive with each other. That's been the root of my trouble fitting in for my whole life. I never cared if I'm faster or stronger or can jump higher.

Men are always measuring themselves against each other and I believe it's an evolutionary trait for them to do so.

Put a single girl in a room full of swarthy men and watch the action. It's predictable and primitive and guess what, it works.

On a certain level they can't help "out jerking" each other. One guy says or does something "hilarious" and another guy has to do something even bigger. This behavior is probably at its zenith during the frat boy years.

Those among us that are more sensitive have a tough time being part of this club, as well we should.

Men are pigs. They're dirty, crass, disgusting, and vulgar. They're much different then gurls like me and a species apart from women, but they are what they are and I can't help but be attracted to more than a few of them.

Now, manners on the other hand, are another matter. There is just no excuse for rudeness.

-Misty

[SirTrey]

I think I'm stereotypically male in a lot of ways, but I am definitely a gentleman....I open doors 100% of the time....walk on the street side if we are walking down the street....always carry the bags, carry in the groceries....do all of the lifting....all of that stuff....I suppose I can be insensitive at times...proably because I don't relate to things emotionally in the same way, so I don't realize I am doing it....but I try hard to be the kind of man that she can feel safe and "cared for" with. :drink:

[GypsyKaren]

It's always better to stick out as a nice guy than to blend in as an asshole...

Karen :g2:

[Jonianne]

.......But I'm still proud of being a polite boy. So there. :ner:

Fantastic Ze! You pattern your life the way you feel it should be. Be proud of who you are. If one role model doesn't work for you, find one that does or become your own role model. Nothing wrong with that!

My youngest son (who you look like) will tip the person in the window of a drive-thru fast food place. He told me that if they do a good job then they deserve that too. That blew me away about his consideration of others!

[Ze]

My youngest son (who you look like) will tip the person in the window of a drive-thru fast food place. He told me that if they do a good job then they deserve that too. That blew me away about his consideration of others!

Oh wow. I'd never thought of that before! :) If he doesn't mind, I'm going to steal his idea and do it myself.

[Stitch]

Look who stays together...the geeks ( sorry geeks :)). They play the same games, eat the same foods, watch the same movies, and they don't beat the crap out of the other (either physically or mentally).

Wooo Geeks! *Waves a big flag* I love geeks, I'm a geek, my boyfriend is a geek, my brothers a geek and so are the majority of my friends. :daydreaming:

I wouldn't worry so much Ze. Anyone who would only accept you as a man because of jerkiness isn't worth the time or effort. I realise that at this age (early 20s) it can be hard to fit in with our peers as the majority are all doing the partying, drinking and generally making asses of themselves. I feel your pain, I'm regarded as an oddity because I don't do what most girls my age are interested in doing. :doh:

My boyfriend is a true gentleman (that cross dresses occasionally) and I just love it! He opens car doors for me, pulls out chairs for me to sit down, offers to carry my bags, never swears, is always amazingly polite and sweet. He is very old fashioned. It honestly makes my heart melt. Put him in a suit and I'm pretty much a puddle of swoon. :heehee: I'm not old fashioned in any sense of the word but he makes feel all aflutter when he does things like that for me. :o

I always try to be polite. Wish people good days, hold open doors/gates, pick stuff up if they drop them. One thing I've noticed that goes down well is when passing someone walking, is to meet their eyes and say "good morning/afternoon" Older people always seem to smile. Most people seem to walk around with frowns on their faces and stare at the floor. Not many people swap common greetings for no reason anymore.

For what its worth Ze, I dig your style. Just be yourself, and anyone who's worth their salt will accept you because your you. Be proud of who you are.

[Adam]

Dont fall into the trap of what other guys do or dont do i never have and never will try to be anyone but me i dont swear i treat all people eqal because we are.

Respect and kindness is how i go by and it has seved me well.

i remember at start of my transtion i read pages how to pass and be a man and i thought it was odd because if you a man your a man they come in all sorts there is gentleman like me and my 4 brothers and my father is and then there is people that are just not!!!

[Sandra]

Ze you carry on doing what you do and you'll earn a lot more respect that those "jerks" It's a pity there is aren't more guys like you around. :bh:

[Misty is Kindafem]

hmmmm.

I think I'm crushing a little bit on Trey. :daydreaming:

-Misty

[SirTrey]

Awwww.....Thanks, Misty....I'm very flattered.....:love::hugs:

[MiraM]

It could be for a multitude of reasons, I'm sure, but it finally dawned on me: the peers I "should" be emulating in order to pass are nothing but sexist, rude, over-privileged, narcissistic jerks. No, this isn't really a surprise to me since I've been studying blind privilege and senses of entitlement for so long, but I guess it finally hit home for me.



Seems they should be the ones emulating you Ze. You are one of the few of a dieing breed, and I hope you never change. There is nothing wrong with being a polite, considerate, well mannered man. The world needs more of them.




Men are pigs. They're dirty, crass, disgusting, and vulgar.
-Misty
Semms you are using a rather wide brush to paint all men with. I am a man, and my husband is a man, and niether of us fit into that description. Maybe you should have said SOME men are that way. Placing all men in that category is no different than saying that all CD's are gay or perverts (which we know is not true and is what most people here are trying to get people to understand). If you paint a group with a brush that wide, be prepared to be painted with an even wider one.

[sherri52]

Good for you Ze. The jerk attitudes you are seeing are in the minority. These jerks eventually learn. Money makes them like that. Having maids or owning a porshe or lexus before they even get thier license doesn't give them common sense. Do it your way you are the real man

[docrobbysherry]

I've ALWAYS tried to be a gentlemen around women. It's gotten me high praises from some of them, (specially the older ladies). So, I get compliments from them, but not dates! And the "guys" think I'm a wimp!:sad:

Unfortunately, to be accepted by real "guys", and DATED by the fem girls, it helps to be a jerk. I've done BETTER at dating acting the jerk, than the gentlemen. :straightface:

Ze, I grew up with rich and poor kids. It really doesn't matter! All the macho guys act like jerks! And the fem girls all love it! Just came from my hi-school reunion. 40 years later, and NOTHING has changed!:eek:
I fit in with most of the folks there, but I'm STILL NOT a big enuff jerk to run with hi-social crowd!

U may be able to tell from my posts, I'm basically a jerk at heart! No matter how I try to deny it! And that's how it is!:doh:

Ze, be who u r! U will be HAPPIER in the end, and find folks who u get along with better, than if u try faking it!:hugs:

[Ze]

I'm glad to see so many of you believe the jerkiness of guys to be the minority, a passing fancy, etc. Like I think I said before, it gives me a lot more hope that I'm not doomed to be involved with morons. :)

I truly am proud to be the guy I am. And I'm very happy that I didn't grow up to be a jerk. I just wish the bulk of guys on my campus would shape-up already. It seems a lot of the ladies there don't like the behavior, but date them anyway because it's what they're "supposed" to do. :rolleyes: Poor dears...having to deal with them...

Gives me more incentive to get out there, though. :devil:

Edit: Sorry, didn't see your post, doc. Yeah, I guess some fem-girls would eat that stuff up, but you know what? I probably wouldn't want a girl like that anyway! :) I noticed in high school that snoots compliment jerks very well.

[Tamara Croft]

hmmmm.

I think I'm crushing a little bit on Trey. :daydreaming:

-Misty
Awwww.....Thanks, Misty....I'm very flattered.....:love::hugs:

Uhm.... hello :wave: WIFE HERE DAMMIT :slap: :kickbutt:

[Ze]

Uhm.... hello :wave: WIFE HERE DAMMIT :slap: :kickbutt:

Okay, serious question here: When exactly did you two get married? For the longest time, I was under the impression that I was an illegitimate son.

[Tamara Croft]

Okay, serious question here: When exactly did you two get married? For the longest time, I was under the impression that I was an illegitimate son.I'm not sure, I was drunk... so Trey says lol... I dunno.. it's somewhere in our thread :lol: I guess you haven't noticed him calling me his wife then? :rolleyes:

[Ze]

I'm not sure, I was drunk... so Trey says lol... I dunno.. it's somewhere in our thread :lol: I guess you haven't noticed him calling me his wife then? :rolleyes:

I have! I just...figured he was drunk. :ner:

[GypsyKaren]

I think you're one hell of a guy, you just keep being yourself.

Karen :g1:

[NiCo]

Ze you are illegitimate, however, I WAS born in wedlock...which means I am the heir...

…erm...actually, since they are both skint, I don't want to be the heir [aye heir of dirty dishes and a pile of clothing that need washing]

*cries*

-Goes back to basement-

[Edit: realises this is not family thread...]

-crawls out of thread, into family thread and then into basement-

[Faith_G]

It's always better to stick out as a nice guy than to blend in as an asshole...

Karen :g2:Well said! :^5:

Ze, I think you are hanging around the wrong sort of guys.

[Misty is Kindafem]

Uhm.... hello :wave: WIFE HERE DAMMIT :slap: :kickbutt:

Ooops sorry.

...but he's so cute.:battingeyelashes:

I guess I just didn't see the ring. ;-)

-Misty

[Andy66]

I've always been inpressed by what a chivalrous gentleman you are. It's a rare but good quality.

[aggi123]

hmmmm I just thought of something...something that's making me think.... lol

Anways, here's what I was thinking. Maybe we tend to notice the jerks more because they're being jerks? I always see them and I think, "wow, what a jerk" but I never really see the nice ones and maybe that's because they're being polite and not screaming and trying to be the center of attention....

I don't know if I worded that right

[SirTrey]

I didn't forget about you, Tam.....:love: It's just that Misty says such nice things....and.....she said I was cute....and you yell at Me a lot.....:devil: (Besides, we both agree we were drunk at the wedding)...:eek: :hugs::drink:

[Sammy777]

Well I'm not doing it. I'm a gentleman and a nice guy. I take care of my appearance when I know it'll matter. I watch my language and conversation topics in front of mixed company and children. When I find myself in conversations that demean women or minorities, I speak up in their defense (provided I'm pretty sure I won't get the crap beaten out of me for saying so). I open doors for ladies, the elderly, and anybody that has their arms full. I don't leave my messes for other people to clean up. When somebody needs help, I help them. I view the world with equality; nobody is below me, nobody is above me.

And I know all of this is hurting my passability. But I simply can't function like a "normal" guy my age.

But I'm still proud of being a polite boy. So there. :ner:

The basic moral and social niceities world over have been on a downward slide for a long time now. Maybe a bit more recently then the usual slide of decades past.

All of those things you do now I have done my whole life as a guy.
There is nothing wrong with being a gentleman.

Who or what I am had nothing to do with why I do those things. I do them because I was raised to be nice and respect others and it is the right thing to do.

Don't let the Jerkoffs and A**holes of the world make you think any less of yourself simply because you are being civil and actually respect others around you.

I just hope that when I am out in the world I will have the chance to run across more people like you. And maybe get a few doors opened for me in the process from now on as I go about my life as a woman. :D

[Hope]

Don't worry so much. No one thinks that frat boys are men, that is why we call them boys. That is also why they try so hard to "prove" their manhood, and like all posers, end up displaying their ignorance.

Being a man is something that is hard won, and earned through trials, tribulations, and generally a lot of pain. Manhood is something that every man must define for himself, and struggle to live up to. If you make your definition of manhood too easy to achieve, achieving it still doesn't make you a man. What manhood looks like for a college professor is going to be significantly different than what it looks like for the forman of an oil derrick, and it is going to be different still for a entrepreneur - but they can all be men just the same.

And there are a lot of hallmarks of manhood. Competence; confidence; greatness; success; generosity; honesty; reliability; fidelity; trustworthiness; sacrifice, often for the welfare of others before one's own; commitment, particularly a commitment to something larger than one's self; emotional maturity (which is often, but should not be confused with emotional detachment) and often, but not always, a rugged quietness, and an extravagant sense of humor. I am sure there are others.

Being a man is not about driving a truck, womanizing, alcoholism, or a general dirt-bag lifestyle. In fact, the alcoholism, womanizing, and dirt-baggery are all indications of a failure to be a man.

If you want to be a man, don't compare yourself, or associate too much, with boys.

[LisaM]

Ze,

I may not be the best role model (being TS and all) but I never felt comfortable with the male stereotypes you are describing. I never wanted to be like them and I wasn't attracted to boys like them either.

Interestingly, (I never transitioned) and I have 3 beautiful daughters and none of them are attracted to the types of young men you are describing. They can't stand the type. They like respectful young men.

So----Be yourself!!! You will end up with someone special and right for you.

[Elric]

There is a reason the word "gentle" is part of "gentleman". Gentlemanly behaviour is not dead, nor is it defined by class or geography. Gentlemanly behaviour comes from within and if it is indeed a part of you, then so it should be.

Besides, it's an attribute that is (almost) always a hit with the ladies. ;-)

Cheers,

Elric

[metalguy639]

Ze the best way to pass is to be yourself. No one says you have to be an asshole to pass as a guy. not all guys are assholes and not all of them act like assholes. :) You do not have to be a jerk, I'm not a jerk to others and pass just well. I'm sure there are plenty of guys on here that are not jerks and pass with no problem. Even in your situation you can come away looking better than the other guys who act like jerks. :D

[Tracii G]

Ze you sound like a very nice guy polite,kind and a true gentleman.
Please don't let those a-holes change you.
I see lots of guys acting like that and its sickening REALLY!!
Speaking as a guy there is not enough of us around in this day and age.
I have discussed this very thing with some transmen friends of mine and we feel the way you do.
Find the nice guys to hang with and leave the jerks behind.

[Laurie909]

Ze, you are the perfect man. The ideal man. You are a good role model. I look up to you. (LITERALLY....'cause you're two inches taller. LOL!)

[Fab Karen]

Maybe you don't realize not all guys your age are like that- it has more to do with as you mentioned how those guys grew up, and also the spoiled-brat-from-Kennebunkport syndrome. Entitlement, "bow down to me", this is my "birthright." There are plenty of grown men who have manners and consideration- that's maturity. "passing" (in your situation ) has to do with not being assumed to be female. You don't have to act like a knuckle-dragging moron for that. Sadly every college seems to have at least a percentage of guys like that. Your college may have a high percentage.
The big point is, this isn't what men are like ( & there are some women who are jerks as well, it doesn't come from gender )- part of the process of growing up is realizing that you can be an individual, being like everyone else doesn't define manhood. A gentleman is respected by mature people, so be who you are, and you can sleep at night having self-respect.

[Miranda09]

Just be yourself Ze. It's easy to be a jerk if you want to impress someone, but being a gentleman and a nice person is tougher. The jerks can provide a good example on how NOT to treat people, especially women. Be yourself and you'll be happy and successful with people. :)

[Picklebob]

Personally, I try to be a gentleman all of the time. How I treat my girlfriend has resulted in her friends setting pretty high standards for guys!

[Ellie Lierae]

I've always been a gentleman, i get some strange looks because of it sometimes, but i know i'm doin the right thing and thats what matters. Nice guys mite finish last, but they always come out on top

[WalT]

I'd like to hope no one likes jerks! I personally do my best to try to be nice to others. It has nothing to do with being a gentleman; it has everything to do with wanting to be a good person for me. Admittedly, there are bad days where I'm rude and irritable, but I'd like to think I'm not a mean spirited jerk. I'd like to break the stereotype that nerdy guys all have mommy and closet (not the gay type!) issues.

[gemsay32]

There's the school life and then there's life.

Most guys I've known are airheads in groups, but alone they're sensible and caring (by comparison).