If it was readily socially acceptable for men to wear make up and high heels as men

[alex74]

I'm curious. If it was readily socially acceptable for men to wear make up and high heels as men, would that lessen the desire to cross dress with the aim of presenting as female?

Having spent a lot of time thinking about gender identity and gender construct, I wonder if a big reason there are so many cross dressing men and so few cross dressing women is because it's perfectly socially acceptable for us girls to have short hair and wear jeans and t-shirt without any big stigma attached...

I'm interested in hearing your various thoughts on whether for instance your personal desire to cross dress comes from feeling like a woman on the inside and wanting to express that externally or whether it's more just about enjoying playing with girl things and actually being perfectly happy as male but just wishing it was okay to wear high heels and make up as a man?

I'm sure there's many varied and colourful answers on this and I'm really keen to hear some of them (as a girl who quite strongly identifies as a boy internally but doesn't have an overwhelming desire to cross dress (though I often have) but would NEVER wear a dress or high heels) :D

[nicole 555]

We would be more accept if we drank and or were a cheating husband then been a cd, people look down at you being dif . Yes i would wear high heels all the time if people would not look at me like i am from outer space

[carrie-ann]

I'm full time cding now so my answer is yes. I hate men clothing. I have since I was 12/13. So now I live my life for me no one else. I'm so much happier now.

[Kate Simmons]

Some folks here say they would not cross dress at all if it were socially acceptable. I guess they like the "rush" it gives them defying the "norm". To myself they are just clothes and just a choice of expression. I suppose I had started out like many, getting a thrill out of stepping out of my own assigned gender but after the initial rush, then what? Some folks remain in that stage for years and never get past that.

For myself, I realized it was more about the feelings and getting in touch with them and discovering who I was as a person. That was the important thing and the clothes, makeup and other accessories were "nice to have". Having the ability to become a "pretty" person is no mean feat because it has to do with attitude and demeanor as well as appearance. People remember and appreciate you more for the person you are, rather than external appearance and that fades with time anyway. While social acceptance would definately make it easier to crossdress, demonstrating who we are as a person makes it more memorable and long lasting, clothing notwithstanding.:)

[Nicole Brown]

Hi Alex,

Maybe it is little of each, or at least it is but at different points in time. Let me explain what I mean by this.

When I began dressing many, many years ago, I believe I was drawn to it because I enjoyed the feel of the clothing and the sexual reward that followed the dressing. I didn't really have a desire to become a woman back then, I just enjoyed the feeling of soft and silky material next to my skin. Today, and for the past 5 - 6 years, I believe that I have begun to realize that my outer self does not accurately represent my inner self. I am therefore trying to get both selves to match and this matching is more comfortable for me in a female image.

This view of myself has been supported by my therapist who believes that Nicole is becoming the dominant side of my personality and that I am moving towards allowing her to take me over. So, what began as curiosity and sexual gratification is culminating with both sides of me being joined into one complete female person.

Nicole

[PaulaJaneThomas]

I'm curious. If it was readily socially acceptable for men to wear make up and high heels as men, would that lessen the desire to cross dress with the aim of presenting as female?

For me, no. It's all about presenting as female, which has nothing to do with high heels (or skirts and dresses). A minimal amount of make-up is necessary so that I don't look like a bloke in a wig. Make-up is a means to an end for me, not an end in itself.

[TGMarla]

Whereas I'd like it if it was okay for men to wear high heels, it's about way more than that. Wearing makeup as a guy just looks funny to me, but when presenting as a woman, it's almost a necessity for me. I like having the whole female image, which means pretty hair, breasts, skirts and dresses, perfume, jewelry, in short, all the feminine accoutrements. You are correct in that I enjoy the feminine clothing even as a guy, but to get the entire effect of it all, I like being completely en femme. So if it was socially acceptable to wear some of the clothing and the makeup, I'd still go the whole nine yards and completely crossdress.

[Phyliss]

I guess wearing cowboy boots and a bit of cologne doesn't count.

Heels and a form of makeup.

Would I wear foundation, eye shadow, and some lippy, along with 4" pumps, you better believe I would. As long as the shoes were comfortable.

[Karren H]

Ewwwww If just anyone could wear women's clothing......... I'd have find a new hobby.... secret agent, Astronaut.... or bank robber!!

[Michelle-Leigh]

I would love for crossdressing to be accepted; I would be en femme, wearing my hair, makeup and clothes at every available opportunity.....

[LeannL]

hat we would wear depends upon what the "other side" wears that we can't wear. I like to think about out it in the following manner: The "gender" of our brains lie on a continuum from 100% male to 100% female with no one at the 100% value. If you were to plot the maleness and femaleness of everyone's brain you would find a cluster on each side of the plot somewhere between 100% one gender and the middle of the graph. Most people in these clusters would have matching bodies. Then there are the rest of us. On the continuum of TGness from CD to TS, we would find the CD closer to the middle and the TS past the middle towards the cluster incongruent with their body.

Those of us with a significant portion of our brain acting like we are of the other gender, we have the need to express, or validate, those feelings. One of the ways we do that is to wear the clothing of the other gender. (I suppose there could be others who have to express it in other ways but I am unaware of how they do it. Maybe there is a male knitting society out there fulfilling their needs :) .) So I suspect that we don't like high heels (although I have them on now), we like women's clothes and more specifically, many of us like feminine female clothes (whatever that means). It is the fact that women wear them that allows the feminine side of our psyche to enjoy wearing them and not the fact that they have 3 inch heels. So if men's fashion suddenly dictated 3 inch heels and women were to shun heels, our psyche would push us towards whatever women are wearing (earth shoes?? I hope not!)

I really believe that what we wear is all about validation. The feminine side needs to prove that it is real. Those of us who have a strong urge to go out dressed are looking for the validation that society gives us if we can operate in public dressed as a woman. With the risk of stating this politically incorrectly, please understand that I don't mean this in the negative way. In the extreme, the TS validates the fact that their brain/psyche is the opposite of their body by making the permanent physical changes they know that they have to make. By the same token, CD need to wear what women wear whatever that may be.

I hope I wasn't to philosophical.

Leann

[Tina B.]

I have to agree with Karren, I don't even want a skirt made for men, if it's not from the womens section whats the point! Oh I would wear them, but it would not near as much fun.
Tina

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I wonder if a big reason there are so many cross dressing men and so few cross dressing women is because it's perfectly socially acceptable for us girls to have short hair and wear jeans and t-shirt without any big stigma attached...

I have to agree with you here and it is one of the reasons why I have become so against the construct of "passing" in the last few years.

I have some thoughts on this topic that often make other crossdressers angry, but I will try to present them here anyway. I want to state first off that I am absolutely not talking about transsexuals here, seeing as like the OP said, women can dress fairly masculinely and yet FTM TS folks still exist. Clearly the motivations for someone to transition are different than the motives for crossdressing. Also, I'm not at all a psychologist so this is just some amateur pondering.

Ok, so, I do believe that if society became more accepting of men wearing feminine clothing, skirts, hosiery, etc, that the next few generations would probably see a major decline in men that present as women. Why do I feel that way? I think the CD's female persona begins to develop when they first start to feel like they want to wear feminine things, but also are fully aware that there is an absolute social stigma against it. We feel like, for some reason, this isn't something guys want to do, so subconsciously we start to develop a female side to our personality, because it's ok for females to dress like that.

I happened to get exposed to the idea that men could wear traditionally women's clothes but still be men at a young age, and I think if a lot of others did, there would be a lot more crossdressers who do what I ultimately did, which is merge their "feminine" side with their "masculine side" and just be themselves and try to dress publicly how they want to, and they'll do it a lot earlier than I did because they won't be fighting the guilt and confusion that tells them "a man doesn't dress this way, you must be a woman."

[suchacutie]

Ok, granted that interest in feminine attire is probably the first outward sign of the desire to understand that feminine side that we all have. Some here have expressed the view that the feminine attire is their complete interest.

For me, the clothing, makeup, wig, and other body-changing enhancements are the passageway to the arrival of Tina. The ritual of all those outward appearances (feminine "clues") is also the time of changing the mindset. There are so many little sensory encounters along the way: shiny, colored nails, the face-changing makeup, tucking, heels that remind the body of a feminine walk, lipstick on the glass Tina is drinking from, etc. All these start the mind going toward voice changes, patterns of speech, general body posture and actions, giggles, smiles(!), looking for jewelry to borrow, and then always the smile, giggle and greeting of my girlfriend say, "Hi Tina!".

Somehow I don't think that a little makeup, heels, and all of that while still in a male mindset quite makes it for me. Tina is her own person, and nothing short of the completeness of the transformation can take it's place.

But that's just me :)

tina

[Lorileah]

Having spent a lot of time thinking about gender identity and gender construct, I wonder if a big reason there are so many cross dressing men and so few cross dressing women is because it's perfectly socially acceptable for us girls to have short hair and wear jeans and t-shirt without any big stigma attached...



Interesting so far. There seem to be a lot of "rebels here who only dress because it is not socially acceptable. So if by magic tomorrow, they allowed men to wear whatever they wanted (as long as it covered important parts) it looks like membership would plummet. So the "rush" theory seems plausible.

After the initial going all out I suspect that men would fall into the same pattern that women have after they were "allowed" to dress (Your definition of crossdressing seems a little off too, women wear clothing designed for men yet you don't consider them crossdressers because it is a standard "norm"). Some men would lose interest totally (the sexual fetishists), some would wear what they felt like in a specific day and/or occasion (dress for work or a party) and some would dress all the time (the ones who identify with the clothing as being "them"). Comfort would rule the ones who just don't care about how they look and others would be dressed for attention.

The ones who want to blend in would blend in, little or no make up non-descript clothing and probably well worn clothing. Within months, most the people here would revert to sweats and old worn tennis shoes. Maybe a few would take time for eye makeup and some lip color but that would even be toned down. I suspect that there would be little change in life, especially in those who want to blend in because women don't dress up very often. The cut of the slacks may vary but they would still be slacks. The heels would be "practical" instead of sexy. Worst would be the CD's who decide it is kosher to wear (OMG) applique' sweats of puppies a kittens and teddy bears because "ain't they just cute?".

Bottom line is, not much would change after the initial rush. Things would settle into a "comfortable" mode and it would not take long before half the people here would start complaining that pantyhose are a pain to wear and the shoes just aren't comfortable and the skirts make it impractical to do yard work. Status quo would win out again.

I had to add this to prove the case in point. One of the most feminine and sexy and "out" people on the boards posted this in another thread about the SCC


Would you believe that I am so sick of shaving and doing make up, that I'm going to lunch drab today? lol Kimberly, how could you go to the other side????

[Lucy Long Legs]

I'm interested in hearing your various thoughts on whether for instance your personal desire to cross dress comes from feeling like a woman on the inside and wanting to express that externally or whether it's more just about enjoying playing with girl things and actually being perfectly happy as male but just wishing it was okay to wear high heels and make up as a man?

Hi Alex.

This is a very good thread and it's great to be able to correspond with a GG about this.

When I read your first question, I was dressed in guy mode but I changed into Lucy before answering because she thinks differently.

The main difference between the extremes of male and female clothes are all to do with vulnerability. Now it is not fashionale now, thank goodness, for women to think of themselves as weak, vulnerable or easy prey. We guys all wear clothes to make ourselves look strong; either casual to look like one of the gang or formal (in a suit) to put us above the riff-raff. Both styles are designed to make us blend into the herd so we are part of "the wolf pack" and therefore strong.

Look at what I've changed into as Lucy. Not the jeans and t-shirt (albeit of a female style) which you say you wear. No - starting from the floor, I have 4 in heels, not to make me tall but to make me walk in little steps with my bottom pushed out in a slightly provocative manner. I can't run away from a predator in these shoes. I have black pantyhose on - these make my legs look gazelle like and graceful, but not muscly. A short skirt - little protection against attack. Ditto my underwear. I have a low cut short sleeved top on. This emphasises my breasts which are very sensitive, and the style makes my arms look slender. I have put a choker on which makes my neck look slender and vulnerable. My make-up makes me look emotional and non-threatening. I have long hair which is easy to grab hold of in a fight.

These are the kind of clothes which many women wear (although probably not everyday, but for going out) and are beloved of so many CDs. Some CDs who, unlike me, are interested in becoming women are more likely to wear your kind of clothes to gain the whole experience.

So, to answer your question properly, I would only be a man wearing high heels and makeup if it was somehow acceptable for a man to say "OK I'm vulnerable and easy to overpower. Come and get me" but that's not how it works. I'm not a woman and never will be, but there's no reason why I shouldn't enjoy the experience that some women enjoy.

I hope this makes sense.

Lucy

[Carol A]

Well the only thing it would do to me is take the "rush" and fun out of it. Now I will admit I would live more openly and most likely dress 24/7

I dress everyday but the wife doesn't like me going out anymore and I believe it would help if we were excepted in public.:love:

[sfwarbonnet]

I saw an article on what is accommodation in InsideMS Magazine (Multiple Sclerosis). I think men should be as comfortable wearing women’s clothes as women are in wearing men’s clothing. Wearing women's clothing can offer suitable accommodations for men who are handicapped and who don't want to present themselves as a woman. When I posted my findings about suitable clothing, the overwhelming response asserted that my motivation was an attempt to justify crossdressing and that men should only wear menswear period and avoid "girl things". The editor of InsideMS (now called Momentum) also rejected my suggestions. Apparently society is not ready to accept a man wearing traditionally women's apparel, even when it offers "solutions" that can provide accommodations

[Ralph]

Ewwwww If just anyone could wear women's clothing......... I'd have find a new hobby.... secret agent, Astronaut.... or bank robber!!
Your nose is growing, Pinocchio.

[Tora]

I agree with Marla it is more, the full package is presenting a passable image of the female form, and demeanor. How that relates to a male being allowed to wear pumps and make-up, doesn't relate. There is always the pleasure of the finer femme, clothes. Nylon is my drug of choice. The hair and makeup is the path that allows the lingerie! So, many choices, such a diverse GROUP!As Karren notes, if it were totally alright, it would loose part of the excitement. Maybe this is why we wonder: Why GG's don't get dressed to the 9's with every oppertunity. Could they have burned out, or just that they can whenever they want.

[windycissy]

Interesting question, a little history lesson: before the industrial revolution it was the men who wore wigs, high heels, silk stockings, etc. Consider this fine specimen, Louis XIV:

http://cla.calpoly.edu/~mriedlsp/History111/Versailles/louis.jpg

If you wore a getup like that every day, what would be the point in dressing up as a woman?

[Lorileah]

Consider this fine specimen, Louis XIV:



No fashion sense at all. Who would ever put THAT outfit together? I say off with his head

[windycissy]

No fashion sense at all. Who would ever put THAT outfit together? I say off with his head

Too funny...although Louis XIV didn't get his head chopped off by the fashion police, you're thinking of Louis XVI:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Ludvig_XVI_av_Frankrike_portr%C3%A4tterad_av_AF_Ca llet.jpg/429px-Ludvig_XVI_av_Frankrike_portr%C3%A4tterad_av_AF_Ca llet.jpg

Note that the wig is shorter and the heels are lower, a more manly look!

[lil red]

If it where socially acceptable I would have to say yes I would wear the cloths, make up and whet ever every day. I don't try to present as a female now so I doubt if I would if society accepted it.:2c:

[Kara Connor]

Hi Alex,
If it were acceptable to wear female clothing as a man that wouldn't work for me. I am expressing my female side when I dress, and want to be as feminine as reasonably possible for me. That means that whilst I know I won't "pass", I want to be as presentable as a woman as I can be, otherwise it doesn't feel right. In an ideal (and science fiction/fantasy) world I would be able to swap genders at will. Most of the time I would continue to be a man, but would also have "girl time". That's what I want when I feel the urge to dress.

You are lucky, I think, as a woman, that you can be tomboyish and "cross dress" whenever you like without societal disapproval, but that has been done to death in many other threads :)

Kara

[Faye56]

For me it is being the woman within me. I look my best for myself and for others like me, all we girls look each other over with eyes as keen and as critical as any womans.
I feel that day by day I am more aware of my feminine feelings and I look at others through the eyes of a woman.

I can slowly feel my female persona emerging from within , so wearing make up and high heels would feel the natural thing to do.

[AmiFL]

Whereas I'd like it if it was okay for men to wear high heels, it's about way more than that. Wearing makeup as a guy just looks funny to me, but when presenting as a woman, it's almost a necessity for me. I like having the whole female image, which means pretty hair, breasts, skirts and dresses, perfume, jewelry, in short, all the feminine accoutrements. You are correct in that I enjoy the feminine clothing even as a guy, but to get the entire effect of it all, I like being completely en femme. So if it was socially acceptable to wear some of the clothing and the makeup, I'd still go the whole nine yards and completely crossdress.

I agree with Marla. I love the entire package: underwear, padded, cinched, tucked in, made up and dressed from head to toe. I never felt complete when I was "partially dressed". Lots of us talk about underdressing. I would not feel comfortable knowing I had panties and a bra under my male clothes.

We all have our own point where we feel good. When I dressed it was 100% dressed or not at all.

Ami

[Sarah_GG]

It will become socially acceptable when the next generation - the internet generation - are able to accept themselves, are able to tell their partners at the beginning of their relationships, their partners are able to tell their friends, their friends are able to tell their friends... and so on.

If you go to any transgender gathering it is socially acceptable.

It's a changing world.


:love:

[joandher]

I AGREE with Sarah the younger generation of today dress for themselves, be it male or female they are so busy with their own lives they are not realy bothered what outher people do, they have seen it all on the internet and except it as the norm

:hugs:

J-JAY

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I AGREE with Sarah the younger generation of today dress for themselves, be it male or female they are so busy with their own lives they are not realy bothered what outher people do, they have seen it all on the internet and except it as the norm


As a member of the younger generation I can say this isn't as true as you think it is. I think I have more freedom to be a male in a skirt than previous generations but I still definitely get looks and stares when I do it. In general it's more of a nonissue than when I tried to dress en femme, but it's not just universally accepted either.

[Barbara Jo]

I agree with Marla it is more, the full package is presenting a passable image of the female form, and demeanor. How that relates to a male being allowed to wear pumps and make-up, doesn't relate. There is always the pleasure of the finer femme, clothes. Nylon is my drug of choice. The hair and makeup is the path that allows the lingerie! So, many choices, such a diverse GROUP!As Karren notes, if it were totally alright, it would loose part of the excitement. Maybe this is why we wonder: Why GG's don't get dressed to the 9's with every oppertunity. Could they have burned out, or just that they can whenever they want.

I have to agree to a large extent whith what Tora said.

Even though many GG love dressing to the hilt at times, it still takes them some effort and they can even view it as somwhat contrived Most GG have told me the mood has to strike them for them to truly enjoy it.
Aren't there days when we don't feel like getting "dressed" either?

Personally I would be horrified going out in public and being perceived as clearly a man in "drag".
The goal for most is to "pass" as a woman.

Also, I have to admit that there is something exciting appearing in public as a woman wearing female finery as we are doing something that is "taboo" for the most part.
So, the more we feminize, the greater the "taboo" thrill.

Im afraid that it we went out in public as a man weaing female clothes (even though it was scociaslly acceptable) socitity would still treat as as second/third class citizens.


Bottom line.... I enjoy wearing female clothes as a "female", not as a male weaing some sort of "costume". This is how I want to be perceived.

[Sarah_GG]

As a member of the younger generation I can say this isn't as true as you think it is. I think I have more freedom to be a male in a skirt than previous generations but I still definitely get looks and stares when I do it. In general it's more of a nonissue than when I tried to dress en femme, but it's not just universally accepted either.

But so do people who adopt any alternative style of dressing - punks, goths, fashion victims, over-made-up-tarty types, people with pink hair, people who wear platform shoes, people who wear bright red coats!

Looks and stares is ok... some of them will be thinking "I wish I had the courage to dress like that!", some will be thinking "It shouldn't be allowed!" but at least you're turning heads and not looking like the next grey person.

Celebrate your difference, if you've got it, flaunt it! :love:

[Elsa Larson]

There have been times in European history when fashionable upper class men routinely wore makeup and high heels. Of course it was the "manly" thing to do.

I recall an anecdote that in China in the 1960's, most people wore shapeless padded jackets. The men's jackets buttoned on one side and women's on the other. And Chinese crossdressers wore jackets that buttoned on the girl's side.

It ain't about the makeup, shoes or the clothes per se, but how we feel about them.

[Cathytg]

Wow! Your question actually drives to the center of the "why" of cross dressing at all. All you need to do is to read the responses in order to see the evolution of answers away from the actual question and into the motivation for dressing. It kinda suggests what is foremost in our minds, doesn't it?

However, to answer the question: I would, indeed, wear heels and make-up if that were acceptable. I love the feel. In that respect, I wear polo shirts (in drab) most often because I like the way they feel. Actually, there have been times at home when I have worn hose and heels with drab clothing. Yes, if I could wear them in public with my male clothes, I would do so.

Having said what I just did, I am left wondering what my cross dressing is all about in the first place. Thank you for asking. I think I will go out side and find a daisy to pull apart.:)

[alex74]

Thanks girls for all your wonderful and varied thoughts. It’s great to hear that it seems there are as many reasons and philosophies around cross dressing as there are names for snow for the Eskimos :) whether it’s about the rush, the rebellion, the vulnerability, the play or whatever else, it’s all great to hear.

Now, for myself, I would just like to say that I think boys in make up are simply beautiful and it makes men so much more attractive as MEN (but hey, that’s coming from someone who does identity in large part as lesbian) but I really think if men were naturally a bit more girly, I’d be TOTALLY straight. There’s nothing sexier than a boy in tight jeans, a very low cut vneck exposing a boy’s hairless cleavage and a well made up clean shaven face. (think Velvet Goldmine – the David Bowiesque Brian Slade rather than good old Louis) God, I wish this kind of look is what society encouraged boys to wear (I know, TOTALLY selfish on my part ;)

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts!! :)