How far can one push the line?

[Ingrid1999]

Between male and female, before crossing over. Im curious if any of you can share perspective on how far a male can feminize and still pass as a male especially at work.

Im sadly past growing my own hair, but I am thinking about beard removal and either androgen blockers or small doses of estrogen. Ive longed for a feminine body as long as I can remember, Im in my early 40s and am thinking, perhaps foolishly, that I could pass as a man by day and be my self underneath.

I thought of this because I have a few openly gay professional friends who are now in their 60s and loving life and Im getting tired of self denial and longing. But being gay and being trans are two very different things socially. Im halfway through my career and am not brave enough to do a full on transition, not in this country anyway.
So is it all or nothing?

[Persephone]

Im halfway through my career and am not brave enough to do a full on transition, not in this country anyway.


Hi Ingrid,

I may be able to provide some answers, at least from my own experience, but first, I'm curious -- what country are you in?

[Ingrid1999]

Usa

[DawnRodgers]

Ot likely depends upon your tolerance for comments by others, your emplyers tolerance for appearance and how outweardly you appear as feminine. Certainly there are a number of stealth things - panties, elastic type bra, unisex earrings, nail polish pale pink or natural, some feminine slacks or jeans, jewelry, some plucking of eyebrows..
Obvious things that will likely be noticed like make-up, filled out bras, nylons visible under pants, ladies shoes in loafer styles. Lots of jewelry - earrings, rings, bracelets, low but heeled or feminine styled shoes. feminine style hair, some blouses. Also to be considered are your mannerisms.
I think that, if you don't go too feminine in looks, you can probably carry it off for a while, at least. The main problem I have is that if a little works I keep tryiong to push the envelope. Be careful of that unless your ready to come out..
Dawn

[Persephone]

Usa

I suspected as much. And exactly what country do you feel would be more accepting? And how come you aren't living there?

Needless to say, I do not accept such U.S.A. bashing lightly. And, by the way, even if just in the interest of gramatical correctness, since it is an abreviation made up of three words, all three letters should be capitalized and punctuated.

Now, on to your questions. Over the course of many years I've been pushing that envelope. I have long hair, typically tied back in a pony tail, feminized eyebrows that get professionally groomed once a month, and long polished acrylic nails. I've also had multiple laser hair treatments resulting in very little noticable facial hair. I have pierced ears and carefully shaved arms. And I carry a purse pretty much anywhere I go.

I do have friends who only know me in my masculine personna and they seem, at least to my face, to accept all of those things as eccentricities. They know me as a guy and they see me as a guy.

Strangers and salespeople call me "Ma'm" more often than "Sir," even if I'm wearing men's pants and polo shirts and not carrying a purse.

So what are the triggers? Personally, I don't think it is the long hair. I've had that for many, many years and, dressed en drab, it seldom took me over the line and that usually happened only when someone was approaching me from the back.

I don't think it was the laser beard removal, because that could just be a close shave.

But I think that the superficial and rather easily changed long painted nails, the carefully shaped eyebrows, and the somewhat feminine eyeglasses shriek "woman."

In other words, short of breast development, I am of the opinion that the more permanent changes, the long hair and the absence of facial hair, and possibly even hormonal treatments are not particular triggers, but the cosmetic changes, the eyebrows and nails, are.

Oh, and one more thing. If, outside of work or other situations where you are trying to keep a male image, you begin to dress and "pass," then you will have to be careful with inflections and body language. And that one manifests itself in all sorts of interesting ways.

For example, as a Southern guy I always nodded to other men as I passed them. Since I was going out more and more en femme, I worked over a couple of years to extinguish that behavior, learning to do woman-to-woman smiles instead.

Guess what? Now I'll be out in drab mode, trying to pass as a guy, and I automatically ignore men and automatically smile at women. Last week I was out en drab and, as the hostess seated my friend and I, I automatically made eye contact with her and said "cute shoes!"

You're gonna have to watch stuff like that if you want to be one of the boys!

[tricia_uktv]

You can go as far as you want. The difficult bit is how far is that?

[Sandra]

.

Im sadly past growing my own hair, but I am thinking about beard removal and either androgen blockers or small doses of estrogen. Ive longed for a feminine body as long as I can remember, Im in my early 40s and am thinking, perhaps foolishly, that I could pass as a man by day and be my self underneath.



Ok so you go for these, how would you explian the breast growth and mood swings and other changes that these would cause?

Sorry but IMHO these should only be taken if your going to transtion fully and not be male by day and female the rest of the time.

[Sarah Michelle]

I think Ingrid's dilemma is one many of us face. The workplace would be a tough transition because you don't control the environment. Your co-workers are going to be there whether they are friend or foe and all the management affirmative action in world isn't going to stop the harassment.
On the other hand Persephone has a point, the more feminine traits you adopt the more mixed signals you send out. My man is very gruff, stand-offish, non-communicative. People find him hard to approach. My woman is very friendly, quick to greet people, easy with small talk. Having made that realization I try to shop with her even in drab but she has a set of mannerisms that are inconsistent with the body.
Being one by day and the other by night and keeping them separate means two completely separate worlds, a difficult thing to achieve. It seems no matter where I go in the Toronto area, in spite of living in a small town outside the city, I will run into some one I know frequently. There goes your separate worlds unless you ignore or avoid them. If they spot you; the drums will be sounding.....

[Karren H]

I think except for wearing a dress to work you can do about anything you want... I dress up everyday for work and its become known throughout the company that I'd do it because I like to look good and don't have to.. And I think that adding feminine flair might be easier.... Bright dress shirts... Pink ties.. Bracelet... Rings... Minimamal makeup.... Long nails... Womens belts..... Stockings and female foot wear.. Feminine or well groomed? There's a fine line and I walk if not cross it daily.. Working somewhere where jeans and tee shirt would be more difficult, in my humble opinion.

Funny today one of my one of my coworkers was commenting to a new employee about the way I dress and I said "hey, I like to look good and dress up" and he said "is that you look good in a dress?" Where I replied "I look good in anything I wear!". They laughed...

but the point is add something feminine a bit at a time and keep adding more and you basically force others to change to your reality... Gradually.... vs being the guy one day and showing up totally enfemme the next... People WIL notice..

[tamarav]

I gave up trying to have both halves of me being comfortable, I went to beauty school and now work daily dressed to the nines making 30% of what I used to make. This doesn't mean that I don't get crap from a few people, but they are the exceptions. I generally just ignore them anyway.


It is rare that anyone gives me a problem nowadays, I am so comfortable and usually dressed and look better than any of the girls I work with, that few people realize I am not a genetic female. My biggest problem is the number of men hitting on me (I know this sounds egotistical). Men can be such dumb-bunnies. 30 seconds of conversation does not entitle one to a date.


What is stopping anyone from moving on to a different job? Internal pressures, finances, internal pressures? did I already mention that one...


You can live your life anyway you want but being miserable all the time really isn't worth it. Think seriously about changing your profession, possibly earning less and living life.

Your sis,

Tami

[Karren H]

That's easy for you Tamara... Your really a woman and are just here tormenting us "guys". Lol. And I'd have to tell the kids that they can't go to college.... Hell 70% cut in salary.. I couldn't afford all the makeup! Plus I am and always will be happy no mater what clothes I wear..

[Marcyme]

You can go as far as you want. I work in a very traditional/formal shirt and tie environment. I wear my hair very fem (a-line bob), small hoop earrings, mascara, and shape brows, all the time. It is all about attitude. For me I am just being ME and those around me accept ME. The less of a big deal you make, the less of a big deal it will be.

[Persephone]

O.K., I'm at Home Depot this morning. I'm buying plumbing parts. I'm wearing workpants and a grey sweatshirt. No makeup, no purse, pulling my wallet out of my back pocket.

The woman at the register rings up my stuff and says, "Have a nice day, Ma'm."