TG and Military Service

[Jamie001]

I understand that a soldier can be discharged for being gay per the don't ask, don't tell policy. On the other hand, I don't believe that there are any bans on TGs. Since most TGs are not gay, I would assume that TG is not a problem as long as you comply to the military dress code when on duty. If you want to sleep in a pink nightie, I don't see that as being against any military rules unless they have regulation sleep attire.

So as far as I can tell, TG should not be a problem in the military as long as you conform to their dress code when on duty or on the base. What is the real story?

Thanks,

Jamie

[gretchen_love]

I think it would be alright as long as you keep it to yourself. Many people in the military will not understand the difference between TG, CD, TS, and gay or even bi. In my experience, it is best to cautious. Besides, a pink nightie clashes horribly with PT's or ACUs!!!!

[KandisTX]

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE
Do NOT kid yourself. They can and WILL persecute you for "Conduct Unbecoming an enlisted man". They will pull ANY security clearance you may hold, and they can and possibly will keep you from any further advancement in rank. I speak from Experience thanks to my first wife being a real witch and because of her distaste for my choice of a second wife, telling my First Sergeant all about my crossdressing. That is a nightmare I would not wish on anyone else having to deal with.

Kandis:love::rose2:

[JenniferZ2009]

We had a guy on our ship who was as open about being not totally straight without saying it and he never got kicked out. I dont even know what his thing was but he would say to some "that is queen bitch to you".

[pantyhosecd]

oh no girl, dont do it, the military does have a way to get you, i dont remember what the code was, but its a catch all when nothing else applys.

[JennyS.]

I worked on a military base as a civilian. I know many of the MTI's. The way I understand it... if you live on base, you must wear ABU's, PT's, or your Blues (unless you're going off base, like to a movie). You live off base, dress the way you want to at home.

[Kate Simmons]

Rules and regulations notwithstanding, the real problem is potentially being beaten up or worse by your comrades, especially if you have no where else to go.

[PretzelGirl]

As Denise says, the peer pressure part can be the biggie. Depends on the people you work with.

But as far as what the "bosses" do, I would say it depends. I worked for a senior NCO who moved around with her partner and although not flaunting it, did not seem to try and hide a thing. Nothing happened. Others get hammered quickly. As the norm with rules, it depends on how well you are liked and if others want to stick it to you or push their morals on you.

Clearances are another thing and affect us when dealing with the government even if we aren't in the military. I was always told that something is only harmful if you hide it and in my experience, that is true. It sounds like Kandis thinks otherwise. So as in anything else in life, nothing is hard and fast.

[Diane Elizabeth]

They will go after you if they can. Conducting unbecoming is one way. Even off duty and away from the base you are held to the utmost proper conduct. If you are reported crossdressing then they will send you to the shrink and could determine that you are unfit for duty. Discharge with less than honorable, or a medical discharge with no benefits. You are better off waiting until you are out of the military. Unless you are willing to accept the consequences and what a less than honorable discharge can do to finding a job or good credit rating.

[NicoleScott]

Like some others, I too think that there are a number of conduct policies that could be thrown at a crossdresser. I was careful to keep my cd activities very private when enlisted. If you're a cd in the military, I'd stick with Don't Ask Don't Tell, even if the policy isn't really about crossdressers.

[Kaitlin the cd]

As a member of the military I would advise to not let the military know. There is a general article under the UCMJ that is just there so they can punish you for anything.

[Lorileah]

They can and WILL persecute you for "Conduct Unbecoming an enlisted man". They will pull ANY security clearance you may hold, and they can and possibly will keep you from any further advancement in rank. I speak from Experience thanks to my first wife being a real witch and because of her distaste for my choice of a second wife, telling my First Sergeant all about my crossdressing. That is a nightmare I would not wish on anyone else having to deal with.



What exactly is conduct "becoming" an enlisted man? When I was in I saw falling down comatose drunk, beat the crap out of your wife/girlfriend, destroy a barracks room,and start a fire in the post laundry just to see the fire department show up. Those are the ones I know about. Not one got more than a reduction in rank. I heard of mutilation, rape and even murder, and your "top" was worried about you wearing a skirt? My how the Army has changed. Back then we couldn't get kicked out no matter what. One of the females in my MOS worked as a stripper off post. She advanced in rank faster than I did.

Still I wouldn't come out as a crossdresser for many of the reasons above. If they want you bad enough, they can bring you up for sneezing in church, fine democracy this is. When this government gets around to fulfilling campaign promises, then our military can get on to doing it's job without fear from its own let alone the enemy. I can promise you that when there were bullets flying I didn't give 2 cents about the inclination of my buddy next to me.

[JennyS.]

When I worked on the base... I heard of a female Dorm Chief graduating from basic training, coming back from town pass late and having to go through the entire thing again. There was another trainee that gave the bird to his MTI after graduation and being taken to his tech school on a bus. The MTI's stopped the bus before it left the base, they pulled the Airman off the bus and hauled him to command. He had to start from week zero, too. Getting caught in a dress and heels wouldn't bode well.

[Annette_boy]

Hi All
I am retired Navy and I can tell you truthfuly first conduct unbecoming is the least of worries in US Militery I list here a direct copy oof article 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice

“Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special, or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.”

this ofcourse applys to US forces only and pretty much means that they can do what they want for whatever they want I am afraid that Trans gender would be processed under that as well.
Also they do not diferentiate between Gay Bi Lesbian or Trans gendered CD TV or TS very narrow minded I admitbut that is how they were as of 1999 when I retired.
There are other things they could use against one of us like Fraudulant Enlistment ( lied about Gender )
and disobedience of orders ,they have a strict dress code which encludes civilian attire of base,so thy can if they wish nail us if they find out and wish to push it.
Sorry to have been so long winded but I wanted to point out that logic and anything resembling civilian law do not apply to military hope the polict towards GBLT folks will change but I would not hold my breath

Yours Annette USN (Ret)

[Jilmac]

I don't think I would have taken any chances at displaying my crossdressing during my navy hitch. Even if I could have slept in a pink nightie, it wouldn't have been a good idea with 900 other sailors on the ship. I would have left my dressing to personal time on liberty.

[robyn1114]

http://www.palmcenter.org/files/active/0/TransMilitary2007.pdf

According to this study the military considers all forms of TGism as a psychological disorder involving deviant sexual practises and is unfit for military service.

[LeannL]

If they can't follow DADT, I doubt that they will try to understand the difference between TG and gay. See the following recent story:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/09/AR2009100902570.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Leann

[sherri52]

You are still in the don't ask don't tell area. Don't tell anyone and you'll be fine.

[tinalynn]

I did dress when I was in the Navy. But only on personal time off base, usually in a hotel room only. I ventured out a few times, but I drove a couple hundred miles away. Took no chances... I remember that one guy decided that a submarine was not for him, so he started wearing bras under his uniform. Not stuffed, just plain, and nothing else that I know of. The 'less than honorable' discharge didn't take long...

[Amymonroe]

As a member of the armed forces I have been cross dressing for a number of years. In fact it wasn’t until I went to Germany that I started to open up. Then I opened up to a small group of military/civilians. Most of them have gotten out by now but a few still remain. You see it is all in who you trust with your secret. Do I take a big chance? Yes I do. That’s why I am very selective of who I tell and who I trust. I generally spend about a year evaluating whether or not I can trust any one person. After making my decision I talk it over with my spouse. And if WE agree together then we go forward. If anyone wants to talk about this further then just PM me. But right now I have to go get breakfast before the DFAC closes.

amy

[Kathi Lake]

By all means, get to the DFAC before it closes. Breakfast is the best meal of the day there!

Good luck in the sandbox, as always!

Kathi

[Tiffgurl]

Wow! I cant believe how many of us were in the military, I thought I was the only one! I spent three and a half years in the sandbox, and I agree with Annette, It takes more courage to go into public in a dress than to charge into battle!

[StaceyJane]

For a while I had a skirt, a silk nightgown and two issues of Transgender Tapestry hidden in my wall locker in the barracks in Hawaii.
As far as being TG went being in Iraq was not so bad just because the female soldiers wore the exact same thing as the male soldiers. Certainly the local women didn't wear anything I wanted to try on.

By the way the DFAC's overseas are the best!

[Stormgirl]

I'd keep it on the down low if I were you, I don't think you fellow soldiers really need to know about your business regarding being a CD/TG.

Good luck and come home safely.

[TxKimberly]

I spent over 12 years active duty Army, and there was nothing you could offer me to convince me to let them know about me. There is no question in my mind that it would ultimately lead to your being forced out, for any one of countless possible reasons. Not being what we used to call a "shit house lawyer", I wont bother listing them and will leave that for smarter people than I.
I always found that there was a wide variety or latitude in the way different commands or units might deal with things. There are units where the NCO's and officers may tolerate some things and look the other way, where the very same things might get you in to a world of hurt in another unit. Sooner or later (sooner I suspect) you WILL hit the wall though.
Oh, someone mentioned that they were surprised at how many of us were in the military. At this years SCC (a TG event with close to 1000 people), they asked for all serving or prior service members to stand. I'd estimate that at least half of the people in the room stood.

[Jamie001]

It seems that the military has zero tolerance for crossdressing in regards to male soldiers. What about female soldiers? If they dress in a masculine fashion are they considered crossdressers and subject to dismissal, or is dressing in a masculine fashion actually encouraged?

[JulieC]

It seems that the military has zero tolerance for crossdressing in regards to male soldiers. What about female soldiers? If they dress in a masculine fashion are they considered crossdressers and subject to dismissal, or is dressing in a masculine fashion actually encouraged?

No, they are not considered to be crossdressers. It's a double standard that exists in civilian society too. Women's utility uniforms are essentially equivalent to men's utility uniforms. Dress uniforms for women include a skirt option, with heels and pantyhose required as I recall.


To your general first question; if you're considering joining the military, understand that you must evaluate your crossdressing from this mindset; what does letting the military know you crossdress gain you? Answer: nothing. You won't be permitted to openly wear women's clothing while on duty. If you wear and are discovered, bad things can happen (and there's a fair chance it will). Even if there were official military acknowledgement that being TG was ok, and crossdressing was ok, if you did do it the unwritten rules would be the ones that hurt the most, in the form of getting your backside kicked, broken ribs, and who knows what else.

In my years with the military, they never knew I crossdressed. There was no reason for them to know.

You have absolutely nothing to gain by letting the military know, and much to lose.

[DonnaT]

Being in the military is not like a 9-5 job. You are on the job 24/7/365.

Crossdressing in the military does not automatically mean you could be prosecuted under the USCMJ. It depends on who your superiors are and how they will react.

The biggest problem isn't whether you are gay or not, but instead is whether you would be a security threat. Such as being subject to blackmail.

There have been articles posted on the subject.

See: http://www.sldn.org/pages/transgender-people-and-military-service

and http://web.archive.org/web/20060512202214/http://www.sldn.org/templates/get/record.html?section=19&record=726


Transvestitism or Cross dressing is addressed in regulations concerning conduct and separation proceedings. Each service has different regulations and the specific manner of addressing the situation will depend on the service member’s status as an enlisted or officer, and by which component they are in, active duty, reserve, or National Guard. In some of the regulations, transvestitism is considered to be misconduct / sexual perversion / sexual deviation that subjects the member to potential UCMJ action and subsequent discharge.

While not a per se violation of either UCMJ Article 133 (Conduct Unbecoming) or Article 134 (General Article pertaining to good order and discipline), cross-dressing can be the basis for judicial, non-judicial, or administrative separation proceedings. The service is to look at various factors in deciding if cross-dressing by a member is prejudicial to good order and discipline: 1) the time, 2) the place, 3) the circumstances, and 4) the purpose for the cross-dressing.