Digging deaper

[Byllie]

I curious about something and hope you can help me.

We've had umpteen discussions about where each of us is on the gender spectrum, as well as how much (or little) we wish to present ourselves as women.

I ask, Is there a correlation between where one see's oneself on the gender spectrum, and the need/want to present as a woman?

Your turn!

[Phyliss]

I really hate to comment on this subject, anytime it get brought up a war of words happens and the thread gets locked and many hands get slapped for something.

But, .... even though I'm gonna hate myself for this .... here goes

Lemme see if I got this right, one one side there's the guy who has one pair of undies stuffed in his tool box hidden in his garage, who will occasionally wear them for fun, then there's the person who KNOWS that nature made a mistake and they're actually the other gender and intend to fix the problem. They have a NEED to present as the gender of their belief for that is what they understand themself to be.
All others are somewhere between these two persons.

I guess as one gets nearer the "fix the mistake" end of this "spectrum" the NEED to present as the gender of understanding becomes greater.

Kinda makes sense to me when viewed like that.

Now, where am I? Don't have a clue, just having too much fun right now to bother thinking too serious about this.

[melissacd]

I am not sure that I fully understand the question, however, I will take a crack at a response.

From a biological standpoint I am very comfortable with being a male. I do not feel the need to have surgery to correct some mistake.

That being said, I am very uncomfortable with presenting as what one would consider the norm for a male. I am most comfortable when presenting as a female and living my life in that context. That does not mean that I have any inkling what it is like to be a female, I can only make guesses and assumptions based on second hand information like observations and media. I only know how to be me and me is someone who likes feminine expression and I live very comfortably dressing as a female most of the time. I have no desire, nil, zilch to dress as a male while having no desire to go on hormones or have SRS.

As I have gained more experience and confidence in going out in public dressed as a female I find that there is no need to change my physiology. The only thing that I am doing is having facial hair removal as that is the one thing that is a challenge for me. Other than that I am fine with everything else.

I am living a life that is getting closer and closer to my ideal, the freedom to dress and express my life as a female.

Melissa

[Wen4cd]

Is this a free-for-all of opinion I see? Schweeet :D

Here's mine:

I think here is a correlation, sort of like you describe, only I would phrase it differently.

If you do actually see a 'gender spectrum' at all, and if you do indeed see yourself somewhere 'on' it, you will probably wish to 'present' as where you see yourself on it.

But if you see the gender spectrum as illusory, you will do as you please, when you please.

[Byllie]

Interesting responses, though not quite what I had expected.

My original question was to see if there was a connection, a correlation between how female/male you see yourself, and how much you want to dress. I agree, if one sees oneself as in "the wrong body", then of course you'd want to dress as a female. We're talking MtF in this discussion.

Then again, what about those who see themselves as essentially male, but *still* want to crossdress?

I've always seen crossdressing as an activity; that is what we do but not who we are. If there ends up being no correlation between gender identity and crossdressing, then what makes us CD?

I hope this helps clarify my original question.

Byllie/Bill

[Jonianne]

.......correlation between gender identity and crossdressing, then what makes us CD?.......

As you suely know that, for many, there is certainly a correlation between gender identity and crossdressing. Myself, I have always looked up to certain females as role models and have not desired male role models in my life. I like to style myself with the female role models I follow after, mostly in spirit, but also in clothing choices as practical. I identify "as" male, I can do no other, but I identify "with" females in many ways. Anyway, that is me.

[Kate Simmons]

Not necessarily. I'm under the opinion that we are all exactly who we are supposed to be. How we deal with that varies on an individual basis. The best thing to do as far as I'm concerned is do what we have to to become comfortable with ourselves to the extent possible.:)

[Wen4cd]

I see the body as basically irrelevant to gender identity. Sex is genetic. Gender is symbolic. We are all psychologically androgynous underneath the baggage.

The brain works electro-chemically, but the mind works symbolically. Sex is body, and gender is mind. Show me the chromosone that can discern between a skirt and a kilt.

With that knowledge, the question of what 'gender' we dress as has, or ideally should have, more to do with personal preference than with self-identity. We could prefer to appear as a certain sex to certain people.

That is, if you fail to take into account that while 'gender' is not a tangible concept, we nevertheless are programmed on deep levels to perceive it as real. We have the archetypal symbols at the root, which shape our perceptions.

In this underworld, gender can mean lots of things: two halves of a syzygy, parental archetypes, anima and animus, a 'picture' of a sex, more, probably.

The reason any individual crossdresses could be any combination of any of these archetypes, depending on how constellated they are, how close to consciousness, how close to identity or posession, or simply because they want to, which is as good as anything else.

[sherri52]

No sense in me throwing in my two cents :2c:Phyliss has in my opinion answered you question:love:

[Tina B.]

Billie I don't think one has much to do with the other, I see myself as a man's man, most of the time. but yet I love to dress and present as a women, and sometimes the urge comes once every few months, and some times the urge comes for days on end, but yet I still see myself as a guy pure and simple. But I think this will be an interesting thread to follow.
Tina

[Satrana]

I've always seen crossdressing as an activity; that is what we do but not who we are. If there ends up being no correlation between gender identity and crossdressing, then what makes us CD?


Good question. There are undoubtedly many CDs who have developed this more as a "fun hobby" that connects with inner feelings but does not impact on their gender identity. For those who do not suffer from gender dsyphoria, the degree of correlation between GI and CDing is largely dependent upon how they understand their CDing needs. If you can compartmentalize the dressing without the need to believe this somehow makes you part female then you will not relate to much that goes on in the CDing community.

So why would someone without gender dsyphoria want to dress? Simple actually. Everyone naturally possesses all human feelings and behaviors. Society artificially divides these into two camps so gender is nothing more than a social construct that changes according to the needs and wants of society. By CDing you are disregarding society's rules that as a male you are forbidden to access these natural feelings. You are simply reconnecting with that which was unnecessarily denied to you.

Or put it another way. Why do women wear pants? Why do women want to work? Why do women want to join the army? If we do not question these behaviors anymore then why are we questioning why men wear dresses?

[Jonianne]

.......That is the axis that represents our self-identity, the answer to the question "Deep down, do you feel you are a man or a woman?" And this (to my way of thinking) is the axis that distinguishes TS from TV - transsexuals from all other crossdressers who may otherwise be identical to them......

I believe this is the key question as well. However there are many of us that the primary reason why we dress is because we wish to identify "with" the opposite gender, but not "as". A person can wear a t-shirt with FDNY not to identify "as" a firefighter, but as a family member, friend or as someone who is just saying with their clothing expression "I stand with those who risk and even give their lives to protect us". How much you want to identify with them can correlate to how often you wear the t-shirt or other garmet.

[victoriamwilliams1]

Well I will chime in:

For me when I dress as a woman I work to present myself that way. I decided a while back to never consider myself as a cross dresser when dressed as a woman because when I did for me it affected the way I dress and on one outing when I was doing that I was pointed out and from that time I began t become a student of women and studying on how to be better and how to present myself since then when I am dressed as a woman I am a woman with extra and as a male I am a male in fact as a male I am not your hyper active male nor am I a push over!

I do not dress halfway I dress all the way:)

[Byllie]

So why would someone without gender dsyphoria want to dress? Simple actually. Everyone naturally possesses all human feelings and behaviors. Society artificially divides these into two camps so gender is nothing more than a social construct that changes according to the needs and wants of society. By CDing you are disregarding society's rules that as a male you are forbidden to access these natural feelings. You are simply reconnecting with that which was unnecessarily denied to you.
Interesting, but when I think of *gender* I prefer to use the terms feminine and masculine as opposed to female and male. Why? Well for me male/female relates to either one's genetic or anatomical sex.

There was a very interesting book I started reading, long ago, about feminine and masculine brains. The author essentially stated that everyone has a blend of the two types of brains (yes, this is a polar concept), and it's the blending that determines how we think and act.

This concept, though interesting and helpful in moving towards an understanding of why we do what we do, is nevertheless limited. What about males who think and act in a highly feminine manner but couldn't give a hoot about dressing in feminine clothing? Then again, there must be a feminine component to those of us who wish to dress and pass as women.

Perhaps masculine/feminine is not a spectrum. Rather, we have some of each, separately. This would allow for those who are *both* strongly masculine and strongly feminine at different times.

More ideas for musing over, don't ya know.

[Karen564]

It's a very interesting subject, but I'm not so sure I can give an answer to it, for I'm tainted goods being a TS..

I have my ideas about it, but dont want to see this thread get ugly..

The brain is so complex in how it works, so it's all in ones wiring when that persons brain developed, & everyone has a little of each sex in them both in the brain & the body, just some have more of one than the other, which makes us either Male or Female:doh:, (sometimes both) so that's why I see all TG behaviour as on a vast spectrum of the human scale, not really some TG scale, so Female on on end & Male on the other, with TG in the middle somewhere, some are closer to the male side and others can be move closer to the female side.
Makes any sense..??

So with that being said, I think that's what compels one to wander off from their own biological born sex to the other side in another form, but is caused by some sort of trigger (usually a visual one) along with some kind of stress their feeling that sets off the brain and puts it into female gear, and the only way they can fulfill what their brain is telling them is to take on the others form of gender expression such as dressing among other things..

So maybe it's a way for the mind to heal itself, because doesn't everyone feel better after they escaped their born sex for a while?? maybe releasing some sexual tension that was built up after a hard day or week at work, so after you dressed you felt a calming or maybe an new found uplifting energy while you were dressed??

I think it's like an addicting drug that can turn into a compulsion because now you know how to make yourself feel better in one way or another, and why it cant be stopped no matter how well you try, because who doesn't want to feel good right?, but I still say it's not really a choice one has because it's wired into the brain that way..

I hope what I wrote makes some kind of sense....I tried not to get into specifics because everyone is different..no one person is exactly the same..just like a finger print..

But as I said, I'm tainted goods, I wasn't born with a mans brain, just the parts down under.. I've always known my brain sex was different from my biological born sex, but I sure can appreciate why one would want to dress as they want too, I just dont get the whole male brain sex thing and what exactly makes them tick other than what turns them on..:o

:hugs:

[Kaz]

I know this is one of those "dangerous" threads where it all could end in tears, but for me the biggest problem is one of feeling we have to categorise (ie put in a box). Call it a spectrum - a to b, or a matrix (the chessboard with many places to hide or present)... it is categorisation, and many here simply don't think that way.

I haven't a clue where I am quite frankly and have given up categorising. I am who I am. Sometimes I want to be full on girl, but I know that if I was... I would miss full on male, so I have never considered TS - though if the truth were known that could be because I am scared of it not working out how I would want - which it probably wouldn't, given my "idealised" view of things.

I also don't want to upset the apple cart that is my family and all those complex relationships I have built up over the decades. But that could just make me a wimp in many "girls'" eyes!

So it gets complicated very quickly. If I could live my life again? Yeah... girl, no question. But what if it were the other way round? Would I now be on a different section of this forum, going the other way?

After all, maybe I want the best of both worlds?

I find this line of thought extremely helpful in understanding your own motivation, but it invariably means picking up new stones with new things underneath, and you might not like what you find... so many don't want to go there..

Me.. I am happy with it as I firmly believe that (for me) there is no such thing as a bad question...

Does this answer your question...? I suspect not. My current context? Sat in my home office 22.24 UK time, glass of wine, just had a bath and full body shave - in jeans and fleece top (starting to get colder here), no underwear, 4" heels, close shaved designer stubble - ready to pack for two days away on business - overnight stop, but full on team meal and beers on the evening - maybe an hour turnaround time... I am going to take most of my wardrobe, just in case... tho' it won't happen... does it matter? Probably not - I know who I am - I am Kaz and her flip side. It's just that in this world, it's the flip side that is on the outside. Is there a happy medium? Yes there is, but it doesn't stop the need to express...

Hope this helps... T'was kind of therapeutic for me... so thanks! :love:

[Byllie]

Okay, so what I gleam from the posts so far is there are three main reasons while folks crossdress. Feel free to rip this apart if you like.


You're a true TS and moving towards your true gender.
You're intergender and find wearing a mix of masculine and feminine clothing, sometimes just one or the other, perfectly natural.
You're solidly male or female, but CD for others reasons, such as to relieve stress, or to role-play, stepping out of your true gender for awhile.

Thoughts?

Byllie/Bill

P.S. I think I'd fall in category 2.

[Danica_7]

As CD'ing has been more of a massive epiphany on my part as of late I think i'm somewhere in number 2.

1. You're a true TS and moving towards your true gender.
2. You're intergender and find wearing a mix of masculine and feminine clothing, sometimes just one or the other, perfectly natural.
3. You're solidly male or female, but CD for others reasons, such as to relieve stress, or to role-play, stepping out of your true gender for awhile.

As #2, i feel like i've always been somewhat female, and i havent ever had the right means to express it. Its always been there and i've never understood it.

I feel as far as the spectrum goes that i could never rid myself of one or the other. I could never rid of my male side, as I use it in so many ways. However, I dont think my male side is too happy for very long if i dont get time to run out and express myself in a female way.

I think i somewhat differ from the other people in this thread. I have always toyed with the fantasy of being a girl, and instead of just putting on the clothing in private most of the time, im Highly motivated to pass as a woman and go out and live a little.
I just dont think i would be satisfied if i stayed in all the time.
Going out and BEING a girl is the experience i crave, while dressing up doesnt quite cut it.

[Satrana]

What about males who think and act in a highly feminine manner but couldn't give a hoot about dressing in feminine clothing?

But how would you know? Most CDs stay strictly private. We will all met hundreds of CDs throughout our lives without ever catching on.

Also all the effeminate men I have personally met have all been gay. I guess they are addressing their feminine personality traits by focusing on the sexual role. Or assumed being gay meant they should act this way.

For heterosexual non-CD effeminate men, I would say they have always acted this way from childhood and never tried to blend in as a normal male. This means they never went into the closet and so do not need the psychological trick of crossdressing to bypass the shame and guilt of expressing feminine behaviors.

I believe CDs are created because we start off as normal boys following the routine gender conditioning but later on we come to realize that we do not relate well to the adult macho role we are being pushed into. Instead we build connections with the forbidden feminine which necessitates a closeted existence to hide what is going on inside our heads.

[Wen4cd]

^
Let's not forget to mention that we are also a part of Western Modern Society, and so we also are 'guilty' of this, (if there is indeed any guilt to be associated with ignorance.)

Here comes the morning's 'blah blah blah.....' :devil:

We're all androgynous and hermaphroditic at birth, according to most philosophy and psychology. Anthropos , or Original Man, was a bi-sexed being in most mythologies.

Russian Philosopher Nicholas Berdyaev:
"Man is not only a sexual but a bisexual being, combining the masculine and the feminine principle in himself in different proportions and often in fierce conflict. A man in whom the feminine principle was completely absent would be an abstract being, completely severed from the cosmic element. A woman in whom the masculine principle was completely absent would not be a personality.
. . . It is only the union of these two principles that constitutes a complete human being. Their union is realized in every man and every woman within their bisexual, androgynous nature, and it also takes place through the intercommunication between the two natures, the masculine and the feminine."

The idea of man being androgynous in nature is an old one, one of the oldest. Ancient myths speak of Original Man in androgynous form, and many cultures have such a being. Of course, in application in a regular mortal life, this can be seen as a direct allegory to how we are at birth, as opposed to how we become in life. Split and separate, and unable for the one to touch the other.

It is said, (by Jung in particular) that the purpose of individuation and integration is to bring these forces back into harmony and become complete, whole again. He saw this as one of the driving forces behind Man's spiritual and religious nature as well. Religious gods, Jesus, Buddha, Vishnu, etc... are all classically depicted as having a perfect balance of masculine and feminine traits, and as such, they are role-models for integrated personalities, and this is what many religious disciples aspire to: a return to psychological androgyny, through which the higher self may be realized - the self that transcends life. This is depicted in 'sacred' marriage' imagery throughout so many religious systems.

We see less of it in the West, partly because the early formers of the Western Church carefully worded much around their own misogyny, and partly because, as Jungian analyst author John Sanford put it: "...no doubt the church felt it must throw in its lot with Man's spiritual development, his sensuality already being sufficiently strong. The result, however, has not been the unification of personality, but the denial of wholeness, and a swing from one opposite to the other."

We are always trying to find ways to get our heads around this function, to shed off fears and prejudices and reason, and we keep hitting walls when we do this, because we are living in the cursed 'Age of Reason." which saps our spirits with cold denials and arguments of 'if you can't measure it or label it, it doesn't exist."

Many, if not all, major religious systems are 'models' of the human psyche, and you can find insight in them in a way you can never find listening to opinions on a forum, at least when it comes to the ends of reason, where your mind and your heart hit the final conflicts. When you start with 'why do I want to do this?" You put yourself on a path to integration without even realizing it. Really, all such questions, if not sidelined by ignorance, fear, pessimism, avoidance, or outside manipulation, will end in spiritual contexts. Don't ask if you're not prepared to search for the individual answer for yourself. A dear friend once said: "You know, you do one funny thing, and it spirals into a religion."

I personally like the images of The Krishna and Radha, from various sects of Hinduism, which, with little stretching, shows me an image of exactly how I view my masculine/feminine conflicts in the harmonious ideal.

This painting (http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq87/fiennaf/RadhaGovinda.jpg), for example. When I look at it, all the answers to my deepest questions are there. It is almost a photograph of my identity, particularly my gender identity. Yet, the whole scene, and everything in it, is supposed to represent God in that context.

There is androgyny, there is beauty, grace, and there is also room in the picture of the cosmos, (and in the psyche, where the thing exists) for both the Krishna figure and the Radha. Before I ever saw this picture, I was sketching it out in my head, in efforts to determine exactly what I was feeling in regards to my dual nature. It was quite an experience to see that it has already been envisioned my many, (something like when you found out that you weren't the only cross-dresser on earth, but bigger.)

Cross-dressers, tg, etc., IMO, are just those who are literally wearing the deepest spiritual questions of Mankind on their shirt-sleeves, whether they realize it or not. (edit: this of course won't apply across the board, but is a generalization)

[Ann Thomas]

I've been pondering this a fair bit more recently, Byllie, and saw a few patterns...

I was born in mid-October, right smack in the middle of being a Libra. Libras are known for being ones that hear both sides, or like to see things from both sides.

I feel that God is not one to be put into a box - that God is both male and female, or maybe one would best say, God has both male and female traits. I believe God has those equally.

I feel that each of us has a part of God in them, and that could be of any part - 100% male, 100% female or any degree in between. God didn't create monsters, but God created beings that would reflect some part of God that we could each appreciate. So we're all equal. None is better than the other just because one has more of one gender than the other person.

So honestly, I think I'm the way I am to appreciate things from this perspective, of mixed genders. Being human is so complicated! I think next time I'll come back as a Giraffe! (Hey wait a minute, didn't the girl from Africa say in a recent post on here that Giraffes sometimes couple up same sex? What's that supposed to mean? Oh forget that then! Why can't things be simple and easy!? :witsend: - lol!)

Hugs,
Ann

[Satrana]

Human beings are far too complex to fit into some half-baked idea of being in one position on a one-dimensional scale. Either we stop looking for simple answers and acknowledge this complexity, or else we might as well join that band of folk on this site who refuse to consider these issues at all.
I agree the gender spectrum is a simplistic concept built upon the artificial social construct of gender. To talk about it is to theorize about a fictional notion that does not lead to enlightenment. If you could take away gender conditioning then the real diversity of human behavior would become apparent. There would no longer be male or female camps except in the physical sense.


If we accept the "one spectrum and we're somewhere in the middle" myth, then we define ourselves as wierdos and we might as well join the "looking for the address of a good therapist" thread.
Which is an important fundamental truth that the TG community needs to learn and understand. We need to stop defining ourselves as being something different from others when there is zero evidence to support such a notion. We are as ordinary and "normal" as anyone else. Just because our society has not yet condoned MTF crossdressing does not mean anything!!!! One day it will condon MTF CDs and then all these thoughts of differences will evaporate into thin air.

Our predicament is solely based upon the erroneous idea that gender is defined by physical sex and our gender ID is branded on us at birth. Society has yet to grasp that this is as ludicrous an idea as say stamping babies with a predetermined work occupation at birth. It destroys the individual right of everyone to live and express their natural selves and decide what is right for them.

[gemsay32]

I see the body as basically irrelevant to gender identity. Sex is genetic. Gender is symbolic. We are all psychologically androgynous underneath the baggage.

The brain works electro-chemically, but the mind works symbolically. Sex is body, and gender is mind. Show me the chromosone that can discern between a skirt and a kilt.

With that knowledge, the question of what 'gender' we dress as has, or ideally should have, more to do with personal preference than with self-identity. We could prefer to appear as a certain sex to certain people.

That is, if you fail to take into account that while 'gender' is not a tangible concept, we nevertheless are programmed on deep levels to perceive it as real. We have the archetypal symbols at the root, which shape our perceptions.

In this underworld, gender can mean lots of things: two halves of a syzygy, parental archetypes, anima and animus, a 'picture' of a sex, more, probably.

The reason any individual crossdresses could be any combination of any of these archetypes, depending on how constellated they are, how close to consciousness, how close to identity or posession, or simply because they want to, which is as good as anything else.

Some interesting thoughts. I kind of see it similarly. We reinforce the gender stereotypes for lots of reasons.

Anyone here think that we still live in a male-dominated world? It's obvious that some countries are male dominated in that their woman have very few rights. It's not so obvious in countries like the USA, but is it still there? I think so. We still haven't had a woman president. Even if we had one, it would take a while for us to get used to it. Men, in my opinion, are still the preferred commander/leader gender. The greater part of the world we live in is still male dominated. USA might just be a minority few trying to resist the natural inclinations, but ultimately it might be futile because even our own country is constantly at odds with itself over this issue.

Men seem to be made for leadership roles. Do you agree? How many woman run government or leadership roles in the various countries? I would think it's heavily biased in favor of men. If you tallied the world, I think probably 95% or greater of leadership roles are male-dominated (in the usa politicians are mostly men, they make our laws).

How is this relevant? Well, if we lived in a world that was trully 50/50, of woman and men, do you think it would matter so much that our mayor or president cross-dressed or had transgender "issues"?

Her'es a link I dug up, not paritcularly special (just a random link I clicked on):
http://www.womensmedia.com/lead/88-women-and-leadership-delicate-balancing-act.html

[CherylFlint]

As a drab, I'm 100% straight male. As Cheryl I'm 100% female.

[Satrana]

It's not so obvious in countries like the USA, but is it still there? I think so. We still haven't had a woman president....... Men seem to be made for leadership roles.
I don't agree that western countries are still male dominated. You can look at simplistic gauges like leaders but the issue is far more complicated. There are many measures of success where women better men such as school grades, university graduates, time to find employment, % of the workforce etc. More importantly almost all gender barriers to occupations and social organizations were removed decades ago.

But the old humbug about why the majority of directors and politicians are male remains, but you answered that yourself-
"Men seem to be made for leadership roles"
Not that there is any genetic predisposition to leadership in men, rather the male gender conditioning focuses on behaviors and attitudes that people recognize as desirable in leaders. Women on the otherhand have to go against their gender conditioning to develop the skills and attitude society expects in leaders.

The imbalance in directors and politicians will not change so long as we impose gender conditioning on our children. For every plausible female candidate there will be many male candidates competing for the same job. Even if sexism was totally absent, the law of numbers would still produce a large imbalance.

[Byllie]

The imbalance in directors and politicians will not change so long as we impose gender conditioning on our children. For every plausible female candidate there will be many male candidates competing for the same job. Even if sexism was totally absent, the law of numbers would still produce a large imbalance.
Though it *was* interesting that Hillary Clinton said that women made better peace negotiators.

[Satrana]

She is a politician trying to get elected. There is no evidence to back her claim up. Indeed historically women leaders have never had any problems going to war.

She was playing the gender card to get more female voters although polls showed that few women considered electing a female President an important enough reason to vote for her. The bias in female voters for her was marginal at best.

Most people really do not care about gender or race. They are much more interested in character qualities and policies. The UK voted in Margaret Thatcher in 1979 and twice again thereafter. This could not happen if there was any truth behind the idea of the male dominated society.