What other aspects of life do you not conform to or is crossdressing the only thing?

[Karren H]

At lunch I was walking around the building and a co-worker came up to me and said "wow... What's with all the colors going on here?" Pointing to my outfit (blue blazer, striped blue and yellow shirt and pink tie)... "Why don't you wear a white shirt and a red tie like all the other engineers?". "Your kind of pushing the envelope". And "your a non-conformists" were statements that all came up in the conversation....

Which got me to thinking... Crossdressing is kind of the uber....... higghest level of non-conformity but appearently according to others.... I don't conform in other areas.. I always prided myself in High Scholl on never siding with the majority... I got sent home more than a few times for having too long of hair and for wearing deeply cut V neck shirts... One of my teachers actually took a piece of pink yarn and laced up my shirt and made me wear it the rest of the day... Which really didnt embarasing me at all.. Lol.

So besides crossdressing, are you a conforming citizen in all the other aspects of your life?

[Absurdist]

Well, I'm an atheist. I'm also an existentialist and determinist. I break laws that I think are senseless. I can't really say I conform to social norms.

[Chloe Renee]

At work now I have to conform somewhat, if a salesperson is too out of the norm bad sales follow.
There are quirks that I am known for though like wearing Chuck Taylor's with a suit. Or my collection of loud socks and sandals.

I joined enough groups on the fringe of society that I blend in. So amongst them it seems that I conform.

[Aska]

To conform or to not conform. I think that to be like everyone else is a waiste of time. I have always dressed, talked, driven, and liked what I want to. People in Texas think I am strange but what I am who I am and noone can change me but me.

[SherriePall]

I am a conformist 100 per cent. Well, maybe not 100 per cent. I mean there was this one time when ....

[Kate Simmons]

No way Hozay, I mean Karren. I wrote the book on non conformity as well as working and thinking outside the "box".:)

[Shari]

Sad to say, so conformist that I'm boring.

Shari makes up for it.

She's such a tart!

[Sarah Michelle]

except for the self-destructive behaviors which I suppose are probably conformist in some weird way...
haven't been to a therapist yet who hasn't been able to finish my sentences for me, so I must be pretty middle-of-the-road...

[Shelly67]

I don't eat meat , I dj psy trance , I'm a hippy at heart .

[tricia_uktv]

Interesting. My male side totally conforms. But I've deliberately stripped that out of Trish bit by bit. Sort of a social experiment. I went way off the cards for a few months but I'm now a much more responsible young lady.

Do you believe me? :)

[StaceyJane]

I'm a total conformist. Even when dressed I still dress very conservatively and age appropriate.

[Nicole Erin]

conformist.
That would be a synonym for "Normal". What is normal?

Let's see, you have to hold a bachleor's degree by the age of 25, preferrably 23. You have to live in the suburbs, drive an SUV, have 2.3 kids, be married, work in an office, be straight, wear clothes of your birth sex, love your in-laws, have suburban friends, be neighborly, go to church on Sundays...
Did I leave anything out?

Me, I didn't even hold an associates til I was 31, I rent an apt in a so-so neighborhood, OH WAIT, we drive an SUV but it is old, have 1 kid, WAIT - married, got laid off my factory job, am CD so not "straight", don't talk to inlaws, my friends are lower class income and/or other CDs, I avoid my neighbors like the plague, and I don't go to church.

Shame on me, damnit, I just break so many rules.
But hey, I have that SUV and am married. Boy I am SUCH a conformist.

[Tina B.]

Conformist, no not really, 65 year old ponytail wearing love child. I would have been a beatnik, wanted to but was to young for the coffee houses.
Tina

[ginafaye]

im relay a undercover nonconformist is easier to play the game and just try to work with the system than have to put up with all the crap when your the single tall poppy in a field of short ones,you surley will get picked. .......but if its something that demands a firm stand im there for that to. but i really like havin great conversations with open minded people , you know the what if stuff

[Toni_Lynn]

Well hey -- my answer will be as non-conforming as I am.

In an increasingly secular world, I choose to not deny or compromise my strong spiritual values, and choose to remain a strict almost traditional Roman Catholic is willing submission to the Magesterium of the Church. I am a proud Catholic

I do not watch TV, except for a few shows on CBC and some movies on TCM, and CBC Newsworld, CTV News, and the Weather Network. Therefore, I have never seen an episode of Survivor or any of the other Reality shows, haven't a clue what Jon and Kate and the thing is there, and have never scene an episode of Friends, Seinfeld or Mad about You.

I refuse to accept those people or things the public accepts as heroes or admirable. In the crossdressing world that means I don't accept RuPaul or Hedda Lettuce or any drag queen who's plastered all over the TV as an idol or think that To Wong Foo, or Tootsie are great CD/TG movies only because they are CD or TG movies. I am not about to buy a book because Oprah says to, and won't cling to every word that Dr Phil says as gospel.

I refuse to believe that Britney Spears, Lindsey Lohan, or Lady Gaga are appropriate material for a 14 year old. Or anyone else for that matter.

I refuse to listen to lying corporate radio stations like Sam FM, Jack FM, Bob FM etc -- who say 'we play anything'. Give me BBC Radio 2 anyday.

I refuse to accept what any political party, be it the Democrats or the Republicans, or the Conservatives, the Liberals, the NDP, or the Bloc Quebecois tell me to believe. I will make up my own mind.

I will not cut my hair to look like a clone at work. Likewise, I will be a non-conformist by NOT getting my belly button pierced or getting a tattoo, because doing those things is more conforming than not.

I do not consume alcohol

I will not compromise who I am -- ever again

Oh -- and one day soon -- I while finally be what what I want to be -- a Canadian!

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[PaulaJaneThomas]

I've never conformed and never will.

[Frédérique]

So besides crossdressing, are you a conforming citizen in all the other aspects of your life?


Well, not really – I’m in the process of falling through the cracks in the floorboards. I usually see what’s popular with everyone else and then avoid it, whatever it may be, with few exceptions. I live on the fringe of society, somewhere in your peripheral vision, a square peg trying to fit into a round hole since I was a boy. Make that a hexagonal peg. I accept my own non-acceptance, in fact I’ve made it into an art form. My sister has never allowed herself to be told what to do, and her reticence has certainly rubbed off on me – I’m just a little more open about it! :battingeyelashes:

When I was in art school, everyone thought I was on drugs, based on my behavior. Since drug use was de rigueur for artistic types at the time (still is, probably), I really confused people with my non-conformity. I don’t know, it’s just fun to go against the norm and play with perceptions. As for being a conforming citizen, there is no question of ever submitting to that sad state of affairs…:rc:

[Lorileah]

what a boring world it would be if we were all the same. and what a boring world without music, dance, invention, stargazing

I will conform to survive, things that will affect my survivability but I won't conform to old, outdated, retentive and just plain stupid things. Lemmings conform

[Cristi]

100% non-conformist. I'd say that if you asked my friends or co-workers who would be the most likely to buck the system or do something different, my name would come up more often than not.

It is interesting to see what society wants us to do (popular television shows, where to go on vacation, fashion, entertainment). I look at that, then for the most part do my own thing. I think some of it is a reaction to being so far OUT of the 'in group' when I was growing up that it became a point of pride to not be like them.

I think the thing that separates me a lot is my attitude about work. I see being paid for work as a trade. Money for hours of my life. The hours of my life are NOT renewable. I don't want to trade any more of them than I have to to survive! Sadly, everybody tells me how they admire my lifestyle (lots of time off) but none of them even consider following my example. They are all stuck with toys and bills that mandate a 40 hour (or more) per week job.

Knowing what they do about me, I don't think any of my good friends would really be surprised to find out I CD. They are used to me being a bit different already.

Sadly, with the office job I have now in a very conservative industry, it takes more and more effort to not give in and just be normal. But what would the fun of THAT be?

To me, the most frustrating thing is to ask "WHY do you do it that way" and get the answer "Because that is the way we've always done it"!

A thought: I don't know if anybody is capable of judging if they themselves are conformist. I think many people secretly want to believe that they are different, unique and NOT like the other sheep in the pasture. But in reality, from the outside they look just the same. I know several people who would probably label themselves non-conformist, but spend their evenings watching reality television and chasing the American Dream.

Maybe real non-conformity can only be seen objectively.

[martha mars]

been wearing dress and skirt all my life just never to school although my frist 4 years of school was my ant and i was the only young boy in that country school and i did have fun there .


stell dont wear fem thing out in less i am in the truck empty but i do put makeup on ever day (like my skirts and heels) now i do drive in my heels all the time

[Fab Karen]

Con..con..conformist? I'm sorry, I don't understand zis word.:)

[SusanMarie]

Me, I just like to think for myself.
Some might consider that to be conformist and some might consider that to be non conformist.
Whatever...:idontknow:

[Marcia Blue]

I can not say I am a conformist. I do not really ever recall doing things because others did after the age of 8.
My family moved around a lot in my early years. I attended 12 different schools before starting High School. I never tried to fit in at the new schools. I knew I would be leaving before to long so why try to fit in. The next school would have a different bunch of kids with their own set of conformity.
I always marched to the beat of a drummer and I prefer that way to this day.

[Nikki A.]

I've had all types of jobs, most of them pretty macho type jobs. But I've always marched to the beat of my own drums. You tick me off I leave, but somehow I always am wanted back and have gone back to old jobs.
Like Karen my dress code is my own, even in drab I've got the colorful shirts. Where I am now, there are some people who know about Nikki some have been out with her, the rest don't know but if they find out I'll worry about it then as I don't really care what they think when I'm not at work.

[AKAMichelle]

That is an interesting. Caused a lot of reflection.

During the early years of my career, I was very much a disgruntled conformist. I wore the 3 piece suits with white shirts and my power ties. Then after I few years I ended up in blue jeans and polo shirts at work and t-shirts at home. The one thing I have learned is that in male mode, I couldn't care less how I look. In female mode, I care very much how I look.

Some years back I was working for a client writing a program for them when they informed me that I wasn't dressing professional enough in my blue jeans and polo shirt at work. They informed me that I had to wear khaki's. I proceeded to inform them that I get paid for what I know and create and not for how I look. I would starve to death if I had to make a living off of my looks. Needless to say, they still insisted so I walked off the job. Those were the good days.

I own my own company because I can't work for anyone else. I can't conform. So I have to say that I have evolved into a complete non-conformist.

[tinalynn]

Hmmm... After reading through these responses, I'd have to say that I probably conform more than most here. That's not really my intention, though! I'm not a 'yes man' at work, I'll speak my mind if I think you need to hear it. But I also know when enough is enough and move on. Don't really care too much about what people think, results speak for themselves. But I also don't want to stand out in a crowd, I'd much rather blend in and be nobody.

So, compared to some (most) of you, I'll probably get labeled a 'conformist' here! Oh, well... :)

[Joy Carter]

I conform to Gods laws and man's laws, other than that I'm a wild thing. :D

[Maddie22]

A conformist or non-conformist? That is an interesting question. I know a lot of "Non-Conformist" who are really a conformist. Like some of the hipster kids who can't stand the preppy people/big corporate types. But they all conform by dying their hair the same color, listening to the same music, going to thrift shops, and supporting Apple because some how Apple to them is not a big corporation???

I can fully admit that I conform to somethings, and on other things I'm a non-conformist. I'm a 29 year old undergraduate student. I'm agnostic, I want an iPhone, I dress preppy and I am very "420" friendly.
I will happily eat tofu or beef. I prefer to go snow skiing for a vacation rather than the beach. I voted in the last election, but not for McCain or for Obama. I have an lcd TV which I watch reality shows, like No Reservations with Anthony Bourdain, and of course ESPN.

Oh yeah, I'm also transgendered.

So I'm guessing like most everyone else, there are things that we all conform to, but yet there are probably plenty of things that we don't conform to.

[AmandaM]

I've never been able to understand conformity. I would like to think outside of the box, but I can't figure out how to get inside it first.

[sissystephanie]

I was somewhat of a conformist during the 4 years I was in the U.S. Navy! Didn't have a lot of choice then! But other then that, I have pretty much been a non-conformist most of my life! That did cost me my job at one time, because I thought and said, rightly so, that company policy was completely wrong in certain areas. So I refused to conform and got fired! Time proved that I was right, and the company suffered!

I am me, take me as I am or leave me alone!

[Rebecca Jayne]

Definitely non-com but then as I believe WC Fields once said
I would not want to join a club that would have me as a member.

[Blaire]

Hmmm, toughie. I'd say yep.

Just enough to collect a healthy paycheck. Oh wait, I get paid to kick people out of their comfy thought-boxes.

Just enough to keep my (to quote the above) nice car, 2.x kids, and happy marriage. I draw the at the picket fence. Nope, not going to happen.

[lemonlover]

It's the people who break the rules who stand out. =)

I love being myself and sometimes that doesn't go well with society! But the devil may care =) Cause i don't!

Colors bring happiness, and who wants more than that?!

I am just so happy and i don't know why XD
*giggles*

[suchacutie]

I generally don't make waves....at least on the surface. I handle things calmly and quietly, but effectively. I haven't had on but one Halloween costume in the last 50 years.

But here I am dressed in all the finery that would be expected of a well-dressed woman, committed to finding out who this Tina person is, taking part in what is probably one of the yet least accepted forms of legal self-expression.

Pretty insane, huh?

tina

[Ralph]

Fascinating topic, Karren! It really got me to thinking... I have been different in many ways all my life. Never did like sports, but neither do I particularly enjoy "girly" activities like shopping and makeup and whatever. Everything, whether tragic or intentionally funny, has always been a source of humor for me -- I guess that's why I like your sense of humor so much, because you look at things in the same funny way I do. And a lot of times in my life, my off-kilter outlook on the world has gotten me in trouble with the so-called normal people.

[Teri Jean]

Does playing hockey with figure skates count? LOL Really just going to work in a trades envirorment as a woman is enough. Go Minnesota Wild.

Teri

[Ruth]

There are people who make a point of being visibly different, bucking the trend in clothing or possessions or mannerisms, but in today's free and easy world of USA and western Europe, they are not really taking any risks. The truly dangerous nonconformism is that of thought, and though it's not so obvious, it can get you in a lot of trouble.
And of course there are parts of the world today where doing what we do can get you in a lot of trouble, but that wasn't the question was it?
No, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool conformist. Except for just one little quirk...

[Ashley_in_Texas]

As for laws and rules... they are usually in place for a reason. I am not going to suffer the consiquinces of breaking them just to make a point or stand out. My brother-in-law is one of those that think that either the laws and rules don't apply to him, or that they are silly and shouldn't be followed. He says he is happier that way, yet he is always sad or angry or complaining when breaking them catches up with him. I, on the other hand, am very happy, and, unlike him, have never been in trouble with the law or other athourities. As for other types of conformity....it all depends on the situation. I weigh the cost/benifit of each, and act accordingly. I guess the fact that I'm not a conformist or non-conformist would by default make me a nonconformist??!!?? What? HUH? Well, now I'm confused.

[Sam-antha]

Conforming ?

1. My work memories include being told to get my hair cut or I would not have my overseas expensives claims paid.
I got my hair trimmed and my expenses paid in full.

2. In the early seventies, the dress code at big banks tended to conservatism. Top and aspiring echelon members sported white shirts and pin stripe dark suiting. My favourites started with a sort of dark blue that eventually graduated to a light blue silky look, and later "flares".
Well I was a techie and the only Telecoms guru that they had.
The trouble was that I was a frequent visitor to London Threadneedle Street, the very conservative home of British Banking. (You know, suit, hat and umbrella...)
I might have been from Head Office, ( not quite, but near enough ). I was sort of expected to live up to that quality of dress etc.
I did not conform, not with that silky blue suiting and a pink shirt.
It was fun, and it serve me well in my deals with various British Telecom officials.
They had a good taste in lunches too.
~Samm

Maybe that was the reason for the excellent lunches provided by the various Branch Managers ? Did I give them something to talk about ?

[kateyliz]

I do pretty much what I please. If that conforms to someone elses ideas about how things should be, well OK. If it doesn't then that's OK too. I am the author of pretty much all of the rules I live by. Hugs, Kathy

[elaine_kt8]

When I was young I always felt that I did not fit in with my peers, despite my attempts to conform.
Nowadays I realise that being nonconformist has its advantages, and no longer have a problem with being thought quirky.

[Starling]

Great question, Karren, and I wish I could say that I was renowned for my daring and spontaneity. However, I do diverge from the norm in a few ways. Aside from sports and public affairs, I watch only unreality TV. In my reality I somehow have good credit even though I haven't had a nine-to-five job in forty years. Life is too short.

I love women, especially women who have overcome challenges, and I seek them out as close friends and service providers. Nonetheless, I do my best to respect all genders and sorts of human beings, and I revere folks of genuine accomplishment, which doesn't include most of the people in People.

I figure I have a larger active (i.e., "fits me") female wardrobe than male, which makes perfect sense to me, and my choice of male clothing is eccentric, while certainly not provocative. Like some of the other ladies who responded, I could care less what I wear in drab. (I just want to blend.)

I look fifteen years younger when I'm properly dressed, and I feel twenty-five years younger. Anybody wanna go roller-skating tomorrow night? Those padded panties might come in handy at the rink.

I don't read bestsellers, and I won't go to a movie I have to stand in line to see. I prefer whole wheat to white, hot to mild, and regular to instant. But I like real vanilla ice cream a lot.

Oy, what a pompous ass I must be! Somebody kick me, very hard.

:heehee: Lallie

[Faith_G]

Yeah, I guess I'm a non-conformist.

I refuse to spend money I don't have to impress people who don't care anyway - so I drive old cars (not classics, just old) and fix 'em myself when they break.

I'm a shooter who WON'T buy a 1911 or an AR-15 - partly because they are popular.

I won't buy a T-shirt with somebody's logo on it. If you want me to advertise for you, you have to pay me - not the other way around.

[MissyW]

I am pretty much a non conformist. I believe a lot of religious and political arenas are a little sketchy. Having individuals or organizations, which are should be followed , to end up being frauds or lies makes non conforming a great idea.

[Kristy_Iowa_CD]

Non-conformist? Perhaps. I would say that I definately have beliefs, hobbies, and activities, though safe and sane are not the typical things most men do (and I mean in addition to crossdressing).

And although all of these activities are out in the open I have (and still do) get a lot of "You do what for a hobby?" and strange looks when people learn about them.

[flatlander_48]

Yes, fairly non-conformist.

I'm an engineer who has no problem with touchy-feely things. I did personal growth and introspection workshops for about 10 years. I wear multi-colored or bright colored fleece socks year-round. I wear pink, purple or yellow polo shirts. I wear bib overalls as leisure clothes. I wear thong panties about 90% of the time. I used to help a friend take care of his pavement Modified before he passed away. I've been to 3 race car driving schools. I've been to races at small ovals, big ovals, dirt, pavement ans road courses. I have no problem being seen in Lycra when I bike. My music collection is all over the place: Marvin Gaye, Glenn Gould, Melissa Etheridge, Sade, Keb Mo, George Gershwin, Judy Collins, YoYo Ma, Willie Nelson, Buena Vista Social Club, Cyndy Lauper, Des'ree, Jack Johnson, Dave Brubeck, Wes Montgomery, Sergio Mendes, Antonio Carlo Jobim, Stevie Wonder, etc. I have owned sports cars, a truck, sports sedans, sports wagon and now I have a Fire Breathing 2009 JCW MINI Clubman (definitely ain't no chick car at 147mph!). NONE were automatics!?!? All of my fem clothes and underclothes are about 2x that of my wife. I cry at chick flicks, but also enjoy major action movies.

As the phrase goes, if there is a pattern there, I fail to discern it...

(Of course, it could be the Bi patterns...)

[Stacye Rose]

what does that mean- to conform? Never tried it myself. Does it hurt?

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

I refuse to conform. Whats the point of living if you have to go by everyone else's opinion of how you should live?

*hugs*

Zarabeth

[Jessica Who]

Well I remember in prep school the overwhelming majority of my classmates listened to rock and I was all about the hip hop :love:

[PretzelGirl]

Most of my life I was a conformist in every respect. I was raised that way and spent 20 years in the military (are you a conformist if you wear the same thing as hundreds around you and pack it in your locker the same way?).

Dressing has changed me. I am not this wild, non-conformist. But after dressing a while, I have grown my hair long, pierced my ears, and am getting more colorful in choosing my clothing. So there is a side effect here for me, good or bad.

[unclejoann]

At my age, 65, I have gotten tired of the reactions of those around me because of how i dress, act, or speak. So, with my work and my family (except my wife) I try to blend in and disappear. 40 years ago I had trouble at work for the way I dressed, my outspoken opinions, and my actions, but now it isn't worth it, I just want the paycheck.

But privately I remain the same. I have very few friends and am not close to most of my family. My wife tolerates me to a point but doesn't agree with most of who I am inside (and doesn't like the clothes in my "other" closet). I am an old idealist who has burnt out.

The biggest thing that distinguishes me to others now is that they might find out that I read literature and sew.

[Brooke Smith]

Never been much of a conformist. I'm usually the only pony tail wearer in the group and like it that way.

I never could understand waiting around at work and looking busy when the work was already done. I started my own business some 30 years ago and now work like heck until a job is finished. Then I'm off to some other more interesting pursuit,returning to work only when necessary.

I participate in what others might consider extreme sports and take pleasure in the fact few people "get it".

I'm not a builder but built a couple houses for myself and lived off the land for a time.(the hippie years)

I pretty much do everything my way ,unless of course I'm doing it my wife's way.LOL.

[Sarah Doepner]

I have to distinguish between conforming and being compliant. I am compliant with the laws and when I worked I complied with the rules, I just put my particular spin on things. Based on my beliefs and activities in my youth, more than one of my old friends wondered how I managed to have a 30 year career in the criminal justice part of our world. Not a great place for a damn hippy. It was always a treat to bring other points of view into their normally conservative discussions. "No, not everyone thinks like you or was raised in your religion or has your blue eyes and blond hair. And, son of a gun, they don't have to."

I live in a conservative, religious area and my politics are liberal and I'm an atheist. There is no reason for me to get in anyone's face, but I don't have to comply with their standards if I don't agree. That, more than my wardrobe, makes me non-comforming around here on a day to day basis.

[JustAlex]

I don't like to think about CDing as a non conformity. I understand that it's not what the majority does but who says that anyone has to do, think or live like the majority do? As a matter of fact, if that was the case it wouldn't be a majority.

But, measured with that rule, I'm almost a 100% non conformist.

Just to start with, I work for a corporation and I'm the most anti corporation guy ever. I break each and every corporate rule and preach against them. I'm still working here because I'm good at what I do and I do justify every rule breaking with lengthy but clear explanation of why the rule is insane. It's easier to let me get my way than arguing with me.

I never wear a tie or a jacket or a business suit or shoes, I wear tennis or safety boots, I don't even have those things.

I don't do banking stuff, not in person, not in the ATM, not over the Internet. I take my money out, pay cash and save in real assets. I get a new credit card almost every month. Then the banks call me to activate them and I always say that I don't know who they're talking about. But the credit cards keep coming.

Most people are socialists, either democrats or republicans but socialists. I love freedom, I crave freedom, I cherish freedom. That's the most non conformist you can be. Conformity in itself is lack of freedom. People rarely conform willingly, they fall into it by mass pressure.

I think this is one of the best places to preach freedom, a forum of certified non conformists. It's OK if you do that sometimes, all the time, in public or in the closet. Don't conform, get used to it and spread the non conformity to the rest of your life. There's only one life your life has to fit in and that's your own.

[docrobbysherry]

I can't even answer POSTS properly!:doh:

"Lead, follow, or get out of the way!" :Angry3:

The LAST ONE describes ME pretty well!:eek:

[Misty G]

In No way am I conformist actually I have a tendency to go the other way. i always like to push the rules to their limits.

[Leslie Langford]

...but certainly very independent, and I only do what actually makes sense to me (like maybe crossdressing :doh::D). I'm not a big believer in authority figures, and as far as I'm concerned, respect has to be earned - it is not a birthright.

Then again, I was an only child growing up and a latch-key kid to boot, so maturing early and being independent from a young age was part of the package. Actually, it's probably more of an occupational hazard for that particular situation, and I think it also appears in the job description somewhere...:doh::D.

[Maxi]

I live life to the extreme. I am a shirt and tie guy in the corporate world, part redneck, part nudist, part cross dresser, part survivalist. I love to challenge the laws of physics to the extreme. Go overboard on about anything I do, and I am a perfectionist. I am so far out of the box, I can't even remember where the box was.

Live everyday like it could be my last.
Live for today, plan for tomorrow, and push the envelope as far as possible everyday.

Blazing your own uncharted trail in life is far more interesting, than following the norm.
:tongueout

[sherri52]

I may conform to most everything now but 45 years ago I was in a gang (dragons) in boston. We were all Irish and all willing to fight. Didn't need a reason anything would do. Then I joined the Army visited Vietnam twice and decided I'm alot smarted than that. Still didn't abide by all the rules until around 1985. We mellow as we age.