Why do women dress this way?

[Lainie]

Decades ago my wife denied that women dress to please men. Rather, she claimed, it was to please other women! Since then I have come to understand fasjion as rhetoric; I. e., a non-verbal communication channel through which women tell each other about themselves. I'm sensible/chic/serious/lighthearted/... and a million other messages that are placed in an ever-changing social context. So why shouldn't I, as a man in a skirt, engage in that conversation? Some will comfortably respond, most may disregard me, some will challenge me. Isn't it just like any other form of social behavior?

[Karren H]

Funny but my wife says that women are forced to wear what they wear dresses and heels by society dominated by male designers!! Lol. Personally I dress that way to please myself... And no one else...

[Alicia Grey]

fashion as rhetoric; I. e., a non-verbal communication channel through which women tell each other about themselves. I'm sensible/chic/serious/lighthearted/... and a million other messages that are placed in an ever-changing social context. So why shouldn't I, as a man in a skirt, engage in that conversation? Some will comfortably respond, most may disregard me, some will challenge me. Isn't it just like any other form of social behavior?

True women have an unwritten license to communicate via wearing different styles, colors, fabics or accesories. Men however have been socially banned by the collective ignorance of the group.

(Mission Impossible) it is your mission to raise the level of social group think to de genderize clothing styles. This post will self destruct in 5 seconds. (Now what key do I hit to do that)

[Teri Jean]

I have to agree with Karren on this point, I dress to please me and not those around me. Today I was talking with a gg faculty member who is a couple years older and we hit on the topic of women wearing dresses over pants or jeans. She said she likes to dress comfortably in pants and I responded and I like skirts and dresses. We both laughed at how this has changed but then I cannot dress in a dress for work as standing on an eight foot ladder might give a more discriptive picture than necessary. Weeeeee

Teri

[Ze]

Women's clothing as we know it today is definitely a product of objectification and patriarchy. It takes a huge amount of courage, sacrifice, and realization for somebody to give societal expectations the finger, for the backlash can be immense.

[Melinda G]

Women dress any way they please, because they have what you want, and you still want it regardless how they dress.:D

[suchacutie]

My dear gf told me that the first rule of dressing as a woman is to feel terrific in what you are wearing, and to feel that you look terrific.

Somehow any second rule seems to pale in comparison, but I can understand that some women would dress to carve out their niche among other women. Don't you all think that men do this too???

:)

tina

[ClaudiaDawn]

Women's clothing as we know it today is definitely a product of objectification and patriarchy. It takes a huge amount of courage, sacrifice, and realization for somebody to give societal expectations the finger, for the backlash can be immense.

I agree.

Seriously, I do. Most women clothes seem to be designed to show what men think should be appropiate for women; and even worse, with today's super skinny fashion, women clothes seem to be designed to fit young boys rather than real women.

Hugs,

Claudia Dawn

[Lorileah]

I was told they wear it because they are "comfortable" That reads two different ways. They like the feel and look of the outfit (That is how we should all be) and they aren't concerned about attracting anyone anymore. Notice that after a divorce women wear what men asked them to wear when they were married?

1998 him "gee dear would you wear that sexy little negligee for me tonight?" Her "NO, I don't like it, it is too thin, it isn't comfortable and you will just take it off in ten minutes anyway."

2005 after divorce
Her "Do you like this?" NEW Him "Yes, it is so sexy I want to tear it off you." Her "You know you could have this every night if we were married."

2008 now old new him "Why don't you wear that..."

[Vieja]

When I was young a long time ago all women and girls wore dresses and I loved it. Then along came WWII and women started wearing things that were more practical for the jobs they were doing and things changed forever. Alas.

Vieja

[mykhelee]

If you feel good, you look good. I tend to prefer skirts and blouses because of the 4 size difference between my hips/waist and chest/shoulders. 15-16 skirt or trouser, 18-20 up top.
I would love to have the selection of fabrics and colours within my male wardrobe the the average ladies section has.

[Marissa]

Notice that after a divorce women wear what men asked them to wear when they were married?

1998 him "gee dear would you wear that sexy little negligee for me tonight?" Her "NO, I don't like it, it is too thin, it isn't comfortable and you will just take it off in ten minutes anyway."

2005 after divorce
Her "Do you like this?" NEW Him "Yes, it is so sexy I want to tear it off you." Her "You know you could have this every night if we were married."

2008 now old new him "Why don't you wear that..."

Lori, you got that right on the nail.. that was my dating/marriage routine.. hey, wait a minute.. do i know you?????? :eek::D:battingeyelashes:

So dating is for me until I'm buried in Lubbock, Texas (name that song??? :D) and just when the M word comes out, break up and find a new one..and so on and so on..

j/k.. but it is funny how this works..

Hugs,

[Stephanie Heplby]

There are so many complicated answers to this question that one-line responses make me vacillate between irritation and uncontrollable laughter.

There are two basic points I will make in this long, sociologically-driven post:
1) Women and men occupy different social spaces, with different cultural expectations placed on them.
2) Individuals both “construct” society and are “constructed” by it (a.k.a. “co-construction”), and must react to (and change) the “stability” of given artifacts used by society.

Conclusion (to save you reading the whole thing):
1) Different social expectations make it easier and harder for women (and men) to wear specific types of clothing and particular arrangements in given settings.
2) The stability of given artifacts makes is easier and harder for women (and men) to wear specific types of clothing and particular arrangements in given settings.

Long dissertation follows…

1) Different Social Spaces

Firstly, we need to recognize that men and women occupy different social spaces within the dominant Western society. For those without an academic background, “dominant Western society” is a term of art that incorporates the generalized norms and expectations associated with cultures deriving largely from Christian Northern Europe, through the United States.

If I could boil it all down to some sweeping (and dangerous) generalizations, both women and men are “observed” presences, but in markedly different ways: men are abstractly observed, whereas women are objectified. As far as I know, there is no good word in common academic usage for my meaning of abstract observation of the male, so let me expand slightly, to make my distinction clear.

Abstract observation implies that men represent the transmission vehicles for dominant Western culture, including science, medicine, etc, since, in all these things, we place cultural value on “objective” knowledge (not the same as “objectified”). Such knowledge is believed to be without viewpoint, without emotion, and thoroughly propositional (in that it can be reduced to logical statements alone). Hence, when men are judged, it is based on the cultural baggage of Enlightenment Rationality (originating most strongly in the 1700s in Western Europe).

With that brief background, it seems obvious that men are not judged the same way as women regarding emotions, beauty, etc. Men are judged harshly for expressing emotions, since this violates standards of objective rationality. Men are judged harshly for wearing feminine clothes because this calls attention to corporeality, implying that a man (or men) might have a life beyond objective rationality.

Women are definitely objectified. This is not really a point of contention in academia. If we expand our view of culture to include all religious traditions deriving from the original five books of the Bible / Koran / Torah, we get the same results. Women are visual objects to be possessed, traded, desired, hidden, etc. Emotions are expected from these objects, since these objects are not rational or objective. Objectification implies an increased visual emphasis, hence women are expected to wear items that enhance this objectification.

However, it is important to note that women are part of society, hence they are not free of this objectification. This is not entirely something that only happens to women. Rather, women participate (though arguably unequally) in this cultural dialog.

So, do women like high heels? Yes, some do, and yet some don’t. Are there cultural expectations about high heels and women? Yes, most definitely. Are those driven by objectification of women? Yes, most definitely. Are those expectations largely written by males? Yes, most definitely, since males have largely written history in the dominant Western society.

2) Co-construction

I will give you an argument based on mainstream sociological thought, but still being formed in my head…

For simplicity, let’s consider that clothes are a technology, which is a relatively simple trick, since they are designed, manufactured, purchased, etc. Now go a step farther and assume that clothing technology serves multiple purposes. Obviously, it keeps you warm, prevents sunburn, and other practical matters. However, it also defines social and personal identities, group memberships, etc. The social “work” done by clothing technology is incredibly important and not all that controversial.

Various people have argued that technologies (and particular artifacts) move toward “stability”, where the dominant social discourse “agrees” on the meaning of that artifact and its design. Naturally, this changes over time. That said, clothing technology in general has reached a level of “stability” in dominant Western society, that places expectations on those who use it (i.e., everyone). If we deconstruct the use of the skirt, we can see that there is stability around what the skirt is, who uses it, and its meanings.

All groups have the same stability around the generalized meaning of the skirt: it is an article of clothing that is cylindrical / conical, being attached at the waist. It may be short or long, flared or straight, etc. We may also include the lower half of dresses in the stable artifact that is a “skirt”. Note that, culturally, the stable artifact “skirt” does not include “kilt”.

Within this stability, there are different meanings applied by different social groups. For some radical feminists, for instance, a skirt may be seen as a form of oppression of women. For some Evangelical Christians, the skirt is a part of a woman’s reverence before god. In both cases, saying “skirt” raises an image that is stable across both groups.

Importantly, one of the key elements of stability for a skirt is the intended use by women (back to the note about “kilt”). Certainly, one can choose to violate that usage from either side: women can choose not to wear skirts; men can choose to wear skirts. However, that violates the stability of the artifact in society, placing the person making the choice in a position of “transgression”.

Which is to say, we are not entirely free to choose what we wear. We have limits placed on us by the culturally stable definitions of the artifacts that make up clothing technology. If you choose to violate the cultural norms associated with clothing, you knowingly or unknowingly pay a price.

Yes, heels can be argued as a form of oppression. They prevent women (generally) from walking quickly, easily, and with long strides. Certainly, it is possible to walk in heels and do so comfortably. (In fact, I love my heels.) However, it would be hard to argue that women’s dress heels are as generally practical as a man’s dress shoes (though neither is all that great, honestly).

However, I am not arguing here about oppression. Instead, I am simply arguing that clothing technology (generally) and specific articles of clothing have reached stable positions within the culture that make it difficult for given individuals use them in ways beyond those “normatively” proscribed.

For background information, if you are interested, please read:
Sandra Harding, Whose Science? Whose Knowledge?
John Berger, Ways of Seeing.
Donna J. Haraway, Simians, Cyborgs, and Women.
Wiebe Bijker, Trevor Pinch, & Thomas P. Hughes, The Social Construction of Technological Systems.

Can you tell I just spent three days at a sociology conference?

[Stephanie Heplby]

Women's clothing as we know it today is definitely a product of objectification and patriarchy. It takes a huge amount of courage, sacrifice, and realization for somebody to give societal expectations the finger, for the backlash can be immense.

This is a much shorter version of my response to this thread. I was aware of it when I wrote mine and did not intend to denigrate the ever-insightful Ze by posting such a long rant. I just wanted to give more background to anyone willing to read it.

Thanks for adding these short, accurate, and sensitive words. No matter where you are (MtF, FtM, TG, CD, TS, etc), this can be a difficult issue, fundamentally bound up in our cultural values.

[windycissy]

My head hurts! I thought girls just wanna have fun...seriously, there are many reasons why culture evolves the way it does, but in today's world women can pretty much wear whatever they want - although it is amusing to read advice women give to each other about job interviews, "I know it's a pain but you must put on pantyhose till you get the job" - and if I were a woman I'd probably wear jeans and tee shirts most of the time but for sure I'd want to get dolled up once in a while, in a sexy dress and killer heels, because it's FUN!

[Ze]

This is a much shorter version of my response to this thread. I was aware of it when I wrote mine and did not intend to denigrate the ever-insightful Ze by posting such a long rant. I just wanted to give more background to anyone willing to read it.

Thanks for adding these short, accurate, and sensitive words. No matter where you are (MtF, FtM, TG, CD, TS, etc), this can be a difficult issue, fundamentally bound up in our cultural values.

Ha! I was sitting there thinking, "What'd I do? :noidea:"

:heehee: Yeah, I'm very sick today, so I'm in more of a short answer mode than usual. Good job on your post, though. It gives the details that I was too cranky to give. Actually, I'm still cranky, but that's beside the point.

[Jaquelyn]

In today's world, women aren't controlled by men's fashion wants and desires. Thats a bunch of hooey. Comeon, in today's world of be whatever you want to be, so long as your comfortable with it; you think women still have to dress certain ways because of a men dominated fashion world? What I see nowdays, is women wearing what their comfortable with, period. I see gals that wear things that are provactive and revealing, because they want to. I see other ladies wear things that look frumpy on men, lol. So what? They need to dress as they see fit, period. I prefer a modest look, but sexy...I like women to wear dresses and heels, not because I'm some sort of male ego, patriarchial, dimwit.....(at least I don't think so, lol) I like ladies dressed up, they're pretty, plain and simple. Its probably why I also like to dress up, gives me a chance to feel that same feeling. Does it bother me some women (including my own wife most of the time) don't like dressing up? No, its their choice in life. I have a good freind whose wife is 40ish, and good looking. He likes her to change when she comes home from work, and usually she dresses fairly provacatively. He likes that, thats his thing. I told her one time she looks hotter to me, when she comes home from work, in her business attire and glasses. She thinks thats hilarious; that the two of us see it such different ways. BTW, both of us husbands, cd. So, when we go places together, she comes home and parades once for me, and then changes for him.......its all good:D

[LaurenB]

Competition for mates. Males still have the power and females still have to carry the babies. Women are wired to attract suitable mates (power and wealth today) and Men are wired to be attracted to attractive bodies. Clothes and all that go with them are an extension of those bodies.

NOTE: I am not saying that this is right. It's just the way we've evolved both physically and culturally (the west anyway).

"Sulu, deflector shields set to maximum"

[Stephenie S]

In today's world, women aren't controlled by men's fashion wants and desires. Thats a bunch of hooey. Comeon, in today's world of be whatever you want to be, so long as your comfortable with it; you think women still have to dress certain ways because of a men dominated fashion world? What I see nowdays, is women wearing what their comfortable with, period. I see gals that wear things that are provactive and revealing, because they want to. I see other ladies wear things that look frumpy on men, lol. So what? They need to dress as they see fit, period. I prefer a modest look, but sexy...I like women to wear dresses and heels, not because I'm some sort of male ego, patriarchial, dimwit.....(at least I don't think so, lol) I like ladies dressed up, they're pretty, plain and simple. Its probably why I also like to dress up, gives me a chance to feel that same feeling. Does it bother me some women (including my own wife most of the time) don't like dressing up? No, its their choice in life. I have a good freind whose wife is 40ish, and good looking. He likes her to change when she comes home from work, and usually she dresses fairly provacatively. He likes that, thats his thing. I told her one time she looks hotter to me, when she comes home from work, in her business attire and glasses. She thinks thats hilarious; that the two of us see it such different ways. BTW, both of us husbands, cd. So, when we go places together, she comes home and parades once for me, and then changes for him.......its all good

First you tell me that it's a bunch of hooey that women's dress is controlled by men's desires . . . . . . . . .

And then you tell me how you and your friend infulence how your wives dress.

"I like ladies dressed up. They're pretty, plane and simple"

"He likes that, that's his thing".

Nothing wrong with that, is there? But don't kid yourself about your masculine influence.

Auntie Stephenie

[Ruth]

Stephanie Heplby, what a great post. I can't say I agreed with (or even understood) every last word but I felt you had covered some really deep stuff there.
I particularly liked your description of the male presence as being "abstractly observed". It's a real struggle to pinpoint exactly the difference in "quality" of the male person and the female but I think you got as close as anybody with that description.
And of course it's at the heart of why we CD. It's not about the clothes as such: it's about appropriating the cultural space that a woman occupies automatically by virtue of her gender.

[KayC]

I would think GGs would be more able to answer this as anyone else's answer is mere speculation or heresay. In answering for myself, I'd have to say that sometimes I dress for comfort, sometimes for other dictates (work, church, sports, etc.), and sometimes to catch my man's eye. No one answer can suit every situation.

[Kate Simmons]

You could but it would be a somewhat "guarded" conversation Lainie. Simply put women are women and men are men and no amount of adjustment can substitute for genetics. We can do a close second from the appearance aspect but will never truly be in "the club". Mostly because we have XY chromosomes and they have XX and we never will truly "get it" no matter what we do. We are who we are for a reason, however.:)

[Fab Karen]

Funny but my wife says that women are forced to wear what they wear dresses and heels by society dominated by male designers!! Lol. Personally I dress that way to please myself... And no one else...
Dress to please YOU, that's the answer.
As for women's clothing designers, size 12 but it fits like size 10, size 14 that fits like a 12... maybe they do it on purpose...

btw, women's clothing today includes pants and pants-suits, and flat shoes. The idea that women are forced into ONE type of clothing is outdated.

[christinek]

Dress to please YOU, that's the answer.
As for women's clothing designers, size 12 but it fits like size 10, size 14 that fits like a 12... maybe they do it on purpose...

btw, women's clothing today includes pants and pants-suits, and flat shoes. The idea that women are forced into ONE type of clothing is outdated.

I would like to add to that list!

Sweats and Velour Track Suits, baseball caps to cover uncombed hair and the dreaded flipflops.

Women looking to be suited dress, women married don't! Don't get me wrong, single girls do the grunge too, they just do it a lot less. The new X generation just dose not care.

Men are still forced into ONE type of clothing and it too is outdated but still in effect.

[docrobbysherry]

:doh:
Yet ANOTHER reason NOT to leave my closet dressed!:brolleyes:

[KayC]

Women looking to be suited dress, women married don't!
Men are still forced into ONE type of clothing and it too is outdated but still in effect.
I disagree...it doesn't matter if I'm married or single, I still like to dress up for my man, and sometimes it's just fun to do it for myself. As for men's clothing, there isn't just "one type", everyone I have dated has dressed totally different from each other!

[Andy66]

It depends on the social situation. On my weekends I'm definitely a t-shirt and jeans girl. I'm not trying to impress anyone. At work I dress a little nicer than I have to, but a little on the boyish side too. It really is a form of communication. I'm attempting to convey that I have some authority, and quite capable of doing whatever the boys can do. Of course, the piece of clothing that says that the best is a little orange badge that says I'm trained to use the heavy equipment. ;)

[kellycan27]

I have to agree with Karren on this point, I dress to please me and not those around me. Today I was talking with a gg faculty member who is a couple years older and we hit on the topic of women wearing dresses over pants or jeans. She said she likes to dress comfortably in pants and I responded and I like skirts and dresses. We both laughed at how this has changed but then I cannot dress in a dress for work as standing on an eight foot ladder might give a more discriptive picture than necessary. Weeeeee

Teri

What about a dress over your jeans.. it's in style the now.

[Satrana]

Women have always dressed following each other's lead. There is a lot of gobbledygook here about how women's clothes and shoes are dictated by men. An actual examination of history shows this is not true. Women's fashions were always chosen by the most powerful women in society which other women sought to replicate.

Before the emergence of the middle class only nobles had the wealth needed to indulge in fashion. All the restrictive forms of female fashion including corsets, petticoats etc were used to convey their status. Today it is the rich and famous who set the trends.

As far as female fashions being about objectification by men, this is actually about women choosing styles which attracted men's attention. It has never been men controlling women's fashions rather it is women adopting styles considered attractive by men. It was always women who were in control of their own fashion choices, more specifically high society women who increasingly used their sensuality to empower themselves. Each woman individually decides how much she wants to buy into that specific role of fashion.

Women have always used their clothes for their own reasons. Women's traditional restricted role meant that this was one of the few areas which they did choose for themselves and so it rose to heightened levels of sophistication that men's clothing never needed to do.

[SheriM]

Lorileah wrote:
I was told they wear it because they are "comfortable" That reads two different ways. They like the feel and look of the outfit (That is how we should all be) and they aren't concerned about attracting anyone anymore. Notice that after a divorce women wear what men asked them to wear when they were married?

1998 him "gee dear would you wear that sexy little negligee for me tonight?" Her "NO, I don't like it, it is too thin, it isn't comfortable and you will just take it off in ten minutes anyway."

2005 after divorce
Her "Do you like this?" NEW Him "Yes, it is so sexy I want to tear it off you." Her "You know you could have this every night if we were married."

2008 now old new him "Why don't you wear that..."



I had to laugh at this - it is so often soooo true.
I wonder why the wife no longer wants to look good for the husband? She will say that she doesn't look good in the sexy underwear and that she wants the husband to be attracted to her, and not to what she is wearing. But prior to marriage, she made a real effort to look sexy. To be truthful, women still make an effort to look good ( makeup, coordinating outfits, a million pair of shoes, etc) but it is now to look good vs looking attractive or sexy. And I believe that Lori is correct, prior to the second marriage, she will loose weight and wear shorter skirts, etc. to once again look attractive. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm?

[GypsyKaren]

So a woman has to be skinny and wear a short skirt in order to be attractive? What a crock, and of course all of the men out there are dressed to the nines with flat stomachs...keep dreaming for that one!

Anyway, this isn't going to turn into a thread that disses women on how they dress, I'll delete such posts or close the thread.

Karen :g1:

[sherib]

Sometimes they dress for other women, sometimes they dress to please their guy, and sometimes they dress just to please themselves. When they look good, and they know they look good, you can see the confidence in them.

[Ze]

Okay, so so far this thread has told me that I have no idea what it was like to grow up and live female, that I chose those female clothes, and that I felt good while wearing them.

Very nice. I'm out of here.

[Crysten]

If there's one thing we can all agree on - women are complicated creatures. Women's behavior runs the entire range - trying to analyze them and come up with some sort of formula is impossible.

Women have many motivating factors - some dress to please themselves, some to please their significant other, some to make a statement to other women, and some becuase they say society "forces" them to dress in such a way. All of this is absolutely true - since whatever they THINK is the case, is the case.

I dress because it allows me to express my femininity, makes me feel sexy, and makes me feel like a whole person. Whatever your reason is, it's exactly as valid as mine. The only real question is - is it fun? Does it make you feel good? Is it YOU?

[Crysten]

Thinking about this a little farther and looking into the reason I love to dress I think has a lot to do witth my childhood.

While I didn't grow up female (more's the pity) I grew up with a very strong, loving mother (I never met my biological father). What I had (at a young age) was a stepfather who was slightly nuts and whom I never identified with at all. The only real role model I had was my mom - I identified with her completely, and began dressing at a very young age to emulate her, I believe. I never suffered from any abuse, wasn't beaten or molested or anything, I just REALLY identified with her. My femininy developed based on my perception that the way to be a man was to be a strong, feminine person, like my mom was (and is).

Over the years, constant reinforcement of my feminine behaviors have cemented them into my life - I guess if society was a bit more accepting, I would probably never wear mens clothes at all. As it is, I'm sitting here wearing pink lace panties, nude Sheer Energy pantyhose, with my legs shaved and red toenail polish on, and I feel great. At least, I feel like ME, anyhow.

[Stephanie Heplby]

Just a quick thought for you...

If women dress irrespective of cultural norms and proscriptions, why does this site exist?

You don't need to answer, I just ask you to think, since some folks have already felt more than a little hurt by some of the traffic on this question.

To prove that I am incapable of a short answer, I will submit the following evidence of cultural constraints on women, all from my wife, who is under 40. (And yes, i know that any hypothesis is underdetermined by the evidence -- See the Duhem-Quinne Thesis.)

1. My wife was told that women don't belong in mathematics, by the chair of the math department at her university (back in the 1990s).
2. My wife was told that she would lose her job at a major consulting firm unless she wore skirts (in the 1990s).
3. My wife was told that she would not get ahead at another consulting firm unless she wore high-priced skirts and heels (in the 2000s).
4. My wife determined that, despite working harder than the other employees in her group, having more qualifications on paper, more experience, and being in charge of more employees, she made the lowest salary in her department (a major insurance company in the last five years).
5. My wife was told by a government employee that she had to be sensitive to the opinions of men in the department, since any time she contradicted the other male staff, they felt "emasculated" (within the last six months).
6. My wife was told that she "did not have the right equipment" to do her job (as a government contractor, within the last six months).

Can you really tell me that women have it the same as men?

These are not isolated incidents; women are systematically treated differently.

[Jaquelyn]

First you tell me that it's a bunch of hooey that women's dress is controlled by men's desires . . . . . . . . .

And then you tell me how you and your friend infulence how your wives dress.

"I like ladies dressed up. They're pretty, plane and simple"

"He likes that, that's his thing".

Nothing wrong with that, is there? But don't kid yourself about your masculine influence.

Auntie Stephenie[/QUOTE]
Maybe I'm being misunderstood, or misunderstanding what was originally said.....which was a male influenced/dominated fashion world. I take that as men still controlling the businesses which control the fashion industry, which was, of course very true at one time. However, that is not so much true nowdays, and that was what I was speaking to....No, I totally think women sometimes dress to impress men, or make men happy; but, I also feel that today, women certainly dont HAVE to do that anymore, to make themselves happy.....as I said some women dress frumpier than men, and more power to them, if that makes them happy. Thats all I was saying.

[lavistaa62]

Dressing has given us all some new perspectives on why women dress- perhaps they orginally wanted to wear male type clothing for practical reasons but if we feel good wearing a short skirt, heels, intimates etc perhaps women of today don't not because they don't enjoy it but because they are afraid other people will construe they are objectifying themselves. Does this make sense? It's hard for me to imagine why they would not want to wear these type things for any other reason.

[Andy66]

if we feel good wearing a short skirt, heels, intimates etc perhaps women of today don't not because they don't enjoy it but because they are afraid other people will construe they are objectifying themselves. Does this make sense? It's hard for me to imagine why they would not want to wear these type things for any other reason.
How about this reason; that sort of clothing is uncomfortable to some of us. Also, if you like to explore your feminine side, why wouldn't a woman want to enjoy her masculine side?

Personally I'm not worried people will perceive me as objectifying myself, but I am concerned I will be perceived as weak, less intelligent, and emotionally unstable by some closed-mided, old-fashioned idiots. Frilly clothes just add to the likeliness of that happening.

...but mostly it's just uncomfortable and not "me".

[sherri52]

We dress for success. You don't get a high end job showing up in a "t" shirt

[Jamie001]

In the industry that I am in (software development) you do get a high-end job as a software engineering manager or software architect by showing up in jeans and a t-shirt. If anyone shows up for one of these jobs wearing a suit and tie, their competence is immediately questioned. There was a news article about this on yahoo.com last week. The article credited Steve Jobs for starting this trend during the 90's.


We dress for success. You don't get a high end job showing up in a "t" shirt

[jolidon me]

I agree with LaurenB. Just because I like to wear a midriff baring top on the weekends, doesn't mean that I plan on banging every guy in the room. Frankly, I am one of the few women that loves her body and don't mind confidently showing it off. I don't do it because I am starved for attention or only feel good when I have men drooling over me. I find it funny how people think girls should feel better about their bodies but then condemn those that do for making it known...

[linnea]

"Funny but my wife says that women are forced to wear what they wear dresses and heels by society dominated by male designers!! Lol. Personally I dress that way to please myself... And no one else... " from Karren Hutton


Some women use this lame rationale. It's a poor argument. I think that most of them dress to please themselves first and others (men and women) second.

[Bridget Fitzgerald]

[QUOTE=Ze;1927788]Okay, so so far this thread has told me that I have no idea what it was like to grow up and live female, that I chose those female clothes, and that I felt good while wearing them.[QUOTE]


I don't know, according to my wife, a gg of 40 years who works 60 hours a week and has two masters degrees, your opinion is demeaning to her accomplishments as a woman. She spends insane amounts on skirts, heels etc. because she can and because she wants to. The premise that she makes decisions based on being trapped in patriarchal servitude is offensive to her.

[Sophie_C]

Decades ago my wife denied that women dress to please men. Rather, she claimed, it was to please other women! Since then I have come to understand fasjion as rhetoric; I. e., a non-verbal communication channel through which women tell each other about themselves. I'm sensible/chic/serious/lighthearted/... and a million other messages that are placed in an ever-changing social context. So why shouldn't I, as a man in a skirt, engage in that conversation? Some will comfortably respond, most may disregard me, some will challenge me. Isn't it just like any other form of social behavior?

While it is not fair to attempt to read other people's minds, I have found that many women simply dress as an extension of their own personality, and in that just to express themselves. Especially in the light of modern feminism, what self-respecting woman would deny her own right to creatively express herself in the way she dresses JUST to please a man? Come on!

I do understand that in the context of a relationship, the way one dresses, say, in a way knowing that it pleases their man may be something a woman chooses to do, as a way to spice up the romance. But, still that's not remotely about denying what you want, simply TO please a man, but in getting what you want in making the relationship better for yourself. And, even in that, it's still you expressing your inner creativity.

I thought this was quite obvious to everyone...?

On an aside, some women are fiercely competitive, and I do suppose that is where you might get the 'dress for other women' in the sense of one-upping them, but I simply can't relate to that.