Where is the line...

[NathalieX66]

...between the casual crossdresser vs. the practicing crossdresser?

anyone can put on a pair of panties, or wear a skirt around the house.

Somewhere along the line is someone who makes a lifesyle of self-expression that excedes the casual motivation. At some point, one begins to guide one's self into the direction of feminine expression on a personal level for whatever the reasons may be. Do some men hide such tendencies by dressing androgynously? Or is there a concerted effort to lead a true TG lifestyle of some sort?

All I can say is that there seems to be a cliff where some are willing to step off, and others aren't.

[Faith_G]

I would say it's when you start doing things like shaving, mani/pedicures, eyebrow tweezing, feminine hairstyle, etc. as regular day-to-day "maintenance" rather than as steps leading up to a dressing session.

[Ashley_in_Texas]

All I can say is that there seems to be a cliff where some are willing to step off, and others aren't.

I walked up to that cliff, looked down, and realized that if I stepped off, there would be No way back up, should I change my mind.

[simplykaelyn]

I would say it's when you start doing things like shaving, mani/pedicures, eyebrow tweezing, feminine hairstyle, etc. as regular day-to-day "maintenance" rather than as steps leading up to a dressing session.

I would agree with this. Some are willing and able to take it farther than others.
Myself, I am mostly relegated to the closet for many reasons.

I don't like this arrangement, but it's where I need to be right now.
I do what I can when I can, and make the best of it. I know I could be more, but have to live in two worlds right now.

It sucks, but it is what it is for me.

[AllieSF]

Whether there is a line to be crossed or an envelope to be pushed, each one of us goes at our own pace and have our line and/or envelope in the location and size that fits us. There is no fixed line or standard size envelope.

[StaceyJane]

More like a slippery slope. I started trying on my mom's clothes as a kid and eventually ended up where I am today with a letter from my therapist saying I have Gender Identity Disorder. I really think the next step my be a full on jump off the cliff.

[busker]

When does a child bcome an adult? By age? Not really. By job? Not really. Some sort of maturity that is recognized that qualifies one to be an adult. I've met a number of 50 year old children.
The cliff,it would seem would have to be when one is either committed to being transgendered (that is having the SRS) or at the least I suppose being intersex (still having a penis but taking hormones and having implants or hormonal breasts) and in both cases living full time as a woman.) Everything else is just apprenticeship.
I don't think unless one is so inclined that it is "easy to wear a pair of panties or a skirt around the house".
There must be a psychological level/threshold over which one crosses for the amateur to become the professional. One doesn't become a soldier simply by wearing the uniform. Crossdressing ( even a little bit) is a personal expression but not too different from someone hanging a flag out and declaring themselves a patriot. If one dresses as a female everyday, does that truly make that person a woman? Is the final expression of crossdressing to be a woman? Isn't that a psychological place as well? Even if we dress androgenously, men and women are different. Do women feel less about themselves if they dress down in jeans and t-shirt? The line has to be in your head. If you were nude and felt that in every way you were a woman (female is anatomical) that would be the test wouldn't it? Clothing has little or nothing to do with your question I think. I suspect most crossdressers don't want to be anywhere near the cliff and those who "know" that they are women in mind will wear jeans and a t-shirt.

[Lorileah]

there was a line? dang missed that one. stupid GPS unit, "turn right at next intersection...and you really aren't wearing THAT tonight are you?" wonder what the penalty is for crossing state lines in a dress (and for some here for immoral purposes). It would be a "miss" demeanor

Dam its late


There can't be a line because we can't even define what we are due to the great variance. To make a line you need to define what is what.

[docrobbysherry]

Is that living TG, is like jumping off a cliff?:eek:

I'm SURE some mite agree with u.:brolleyes:

[Persephone]

...between the casual crossdresser vs. the practicing crossdresser?

anyone can put on a pair of panties, or wear a skirt around the house.

Somewhere along the line is someone who makes a lifesyle of self-expression that excedes the casual motivation. At some point, one begins to guide one's self into the direction of feminine expression on a personal level for whatever the reasons may be. Do some men hide such tendencies by dressing androgynously? Or is there a concerted effort to lead a true TG lifestyle of some sort?

All I can say is that there seems to be a cliff where some are willing to step off, and others aren't.

A great, meaningful post, Nathalie.

Here's how I see it: while we all hang together for mutual support, in my book each of us is a unique individual. There is validity to those who see themselves as what you are calling the "casual crossdresser," just as there is validity to those individuals who are closeted and those who just want to be a "man in a dress."

Just so you know where I am, over the years I've definitely fallen over that cliff. Personally, I believe that my parachute didn't open and that I fell right through the Pink Fog and straight into the Pink Sea (© 2009 Persephone, all rights reserved with free right of use on this website granted to one and all).

For me, I really love it down here. The sea is warm, fragrant with estrogen, and filled with swimming GG's.

Using BasementCD's post as a guideline, for over a decade my regular maintenance has included shaving (body shave once a week), mani/pedicures (manicure and acrylic fill ever two weeks, pedicure every 6 weeks), eyebrow tweezing (every morning, with a professional tinting and waxing once a month), feminine hairstyle (shoulder length or longer hair for well over 20 years), etc. as regular day-to-day "maintenance" rather than as steps leading up to a dressing session. And then there's the morning and evening moisturizer rituals.

And let's not forget constant "girly food" diet and the daily exercise, all just a normal part of living in "girl world."

Still, I've never fully given up some part of me that still can think and act guy. Maybe because growing up that behavior was what was reinforced. So some hours every day I'm still a married guy, sometimes doing "guy things."

By now I'm pretty much bilingual. I mostly speak "girl" and usually think in "girl," but, if I put my mind to it I'm still pretty fluent in "guy."

I love it here in the Pink Sea©, but unless you're called to it, it isn't for everyone.

Still, if your path leads here, be sure to diet and exercise, and be sure to bring your prettiest bathing suit!

Hugs,
Persephone.

P.S. -- to Lorileah:

there was a line? dang missed that one. stupid GPS unit, "turn right at next intersection...and you really aren't wearing THAT tonight are you?" wonder what the penalty is for crossing state lines in a dress (and for some here for immoral purposes). It would be a "miss" demeanor.

Shouldn't that be "the next intersexion"?

[Mirani]

I agree with the ascertion of pulling oneself in a direction, but I don't agree with the analogy. I never went to a cliff edge. It wasn't a dangerous place.

I have been on a journey all my life, with many crossroads (sorry about the pun) some signposted, some not. Sometimes I could see the road ahead, sometimes not. Some I walked down more than once.

Then, with a guide holding my hand, I took the turn I had been down before but had previously turned back or took a diversion.

This time, I just kept on going. No precipice, no leap, just a step at a time (tho' for the first time I RAN to keep pace with my coach) which has ended up with me where I am today.

24/7

Happy and content.

[Sally2005]

The way I see it, the line between casual and practicing as you put, is the realization that you need to dress to satisfy your female ego and yet you also need to maintain your male ego. You are not committed to a lifestyle change and receive the full benefits from both roles.

What's a 'fair weather CDer?' ...

[trannie T]

Each and every one of us is unique. There is no line drawn in the sand but an undefined area in a fog bank. Some things can be defined as black or white, most of us are in the grey area.


The photographers among us may be in an 18% grey area.

[marie354]

When I went full time, I never considered it as jumping off a cliff... More like diving into a new pool... Testing the water, so to speak.
Sure, I was nervous at first. But I got rid of all of my men's clothes as well, so I wasn't just testing the water, but actually making a life change. I've no regrets other than not doing it sooner. For me it WAS the right thing to do.
:daydreaming:

[Carroll]

The line you speak of is a VERY WIDE line and its gray

[Blaire]

There can't be a line because we can't even define what we are due to the great variance. To make a line you need to define what is what.

In essense, the line is where you drew it?

[Jocelyn Quivers]

I'll go with the standard cliche's you are a participating crossdresser when you start wearing pants, skip a day or two shaving your legs because you just don't feel like it, when you do wear a dress you are bare legged, and you hardly ever wear make up any more.

[Karren H]

From what I've read its a really complicated formula that would take ages to make up... I mean derive....

[LisaM]

This was a great post with wonderful replies---especially Persephone's.

[melissacd]

I think that this is an evolving thing for sure. Some do it quickly, some slowly, some somewhere in between.

For me each day is one more step in that direction, one more thing I try, always pushing my old limits to see how far I can and want to take this. I pretty much live 7/24 now in terms of how I dress, the rest is shaping up a bit each day.

I go through periods where I have to stop, look around and ask myself, is this the right place to stop. Mostly the answer is it is the right place to take a break and let the current state of things set in and then check to see if I need to move a little further. So far it always needs a movement further down the track.

[Kate Simmons]

Would that it were that simple. There are multiple "levels" reached on an individual basis as well as milestones. It's all about developing one's personality or sense of self. That really cannot be defined in terms of gender or in degrees of creativity. Each person is a unique individual in that respect. Any other explanation doesn't make sense.:)

[Sara82]

This is a very hard line to draw I think.

For example consider this scenario. You have a crossdresser A, who every weekend gets dressed to the nines (makeup, wig, dress, heels) and perhaps goes out on the town, to shop, to go out drinking, and what have you. But during the week, lives a completely typical male life, that leaves no evidence of his weekend activity. Nor does he follow any feminine hygiene regiment during the week. Just the fact that he has the courage to go out in full attire and see the world would mean to me that he is a practicing crossdresser or transgender. Even though he lives a typical male life during those off hours.

Now consider Crossdresser B, he doesn't leave the house wearing anything that screams "GUY IN A DRESS", but he tends to dress androgynously all the time, practices normal feminine type hygiene routines on a regular basis (shaving, eyebrow tweezing, skin care), and perhaps he even underdresses everyday too.

I think in both cases, each person could be considered more than just a casual crossdresser. Im not really sure such a line can be drawn.

[Philipa Jane]

Is this some sort of imaginary line to define if we are truly feeling feminine?

"All I can say is that there seems to be a cliff where some are willing to step off, and others aren't."
__________________
Or maybe it is some sort of competition and if you are not prepared to go all the way you're a pretender.:2c:

[TxKimberly]

I'm not sure where the line is at, but I'm fairly sure it's behind me . . . :D

[Nicole Erin]

I would say it's when you start doing things like shaving, mani/pedicures, eyebrow tweezing, feminine hairstyle, etc. as regular day-to-day "maintenance" rather than as steps leading up to a dressing session.

This is true cause the eyebrows and shaving and femme hairstyle are a little hard to hide.

So maybe that line is when you live day to day in CD mode, of course that doesn't have to mean full femme.

[sherri]

...between the casual crossdresser vs. the practicing crossdresser?

Or is there a concerted effort to lead a true TG lifestyle of some sort? Well, I've read all the posts and I still don't know what "practicing crossdresser" means, or rather, what you mean by that term. If a closet panty wearer does it regularly, could it not be said that he is "practicing"? Same goes for " "true TG lifestyle". There are many full-time TGs (and especially the subset of TSs) who would characterize part-time crossdressers as falling short of being serious about their gender expression and thus less deserving of respect -- not that I agree with that opinion, but I've heard it stated many times, and rather haughtily, I might add.

I'm not being critical, just saying your questions lack the clarity needed to attempt an answer -- and I'm not sure how useful an answer would be. I sort of agree with the sentiment that if there is indeed "a line", it is wide and gray. But if pressed for a sharp demarcation, I would say it falls between the part-time (and partially closeted) CD and the full-time, totally out TG. (In a black-and-white world, all other variations are just shades of gray.) What particular point such a distinction makes, however, escapes me.

[melissacd]

I think what Nathalie means is the difference between someone who does this as a hobby (once in a while dressing en femme) and someone who makes this a complete lifestyle (full time cross dressing).

[NathalieX66]

I think what Nathalie means is the difference between someone who does this as a hobby (once in a while dressing en femme) and someone who makes this a complete lifestyle (full time cross dressing).

Thanks melissa, that is my point.
Maybe the question is only relative to my situation, and others may be in a different place than moi, but I'm trying to understand the whole spectrum of CD/TG where it seems each place in that spectrum comes with its merits and compromises.
Anyway, thanks to all who replied!:hugs:

[melissacd]

Nathalie,

Are you asking because you live full time en femme or because you want to live that way and are trying to find others who are already doing this?

Melissa

[NathalieX66]

Nathalie,

Are you asking because you live full time en femme or because you want to live that way and are trying to find others who are already doing this?

Melissa

I would actually consider it when I become an eccentric artist when I retire. I don't believe in true retirement because it dulls the mind. But for now, alternate the switches on my A/B box below, and so far so good.

[sherri]

But for now, alternate the switches on my A/B box below, and so far so good.Lol. I like that metaphor. (You must be a guitar player.)

[Gisele]

I guess you can say I have crossed the line some time back but there is always another one in front of you.

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I have went from wearing nightgowns for playing house with the cousins

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To trying on panties in secret.

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Then getting the urge to wear something pretty from my mom's closet.

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Oh, then on to the sexual side as you grow into your early teens...can't forget that.

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Then to purging as you think of yourself as a "freak" and doing all kinds of manly things and proving yourself as the man's man.

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Then after some time you fall off the wagon and slip on a pair of panties that you buy in a store. (another new thrill of buying them)

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When that is not enough you start buying womens clothes and start you trip to dressing.

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Now you want make up and want to look pretty.

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Breast! can't for get them!! You toss the "homemade" breast forms and get yourself a nice setof forms.

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Oooooooh HAIR! gotta do your hair to make it all come together.

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Now that you are looking the part you want to get out and into the public. Gotta start off by sneaking out to your car late at night and going for the drive.

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Now driving is not enough...not enough of the public can see you. So you go to a mall or dept. store for a quick shopping trip. Then run home and think WOW that was sooooo cool. Did anyone I know see me? GOD I hope not you think. Then after some time you seen the news and you were not the main story for the night or the week and no one called you and said "I think I seen you at such and such place but....."

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After some time of this you "talk yourself" into just go out a screw what people think of me! You dress how you want and try to pass as best as you can and just do it.



So now that is about 13 lines I have crossed so far. I know I have a few more maybe but right now I am happy with who I am. :)

[stefanie]

i don't think it is a line to crossover as much as a line we are on....more of a trajectory....

its just that some girls are on different slope lines....no different than puberty

we all have our girly girl growth journeys and its the experiences and removal of social pressures that allows us to take one step more on the line....not over the line.

As we each become more comfortable with ourselves, our true selves and not the selves society wants us to be, our line is easier to walk

[sterling12]

I think that most of us could qualify, and quantify that line...for ourselves. Trying to define what others would do to "Cross The Rubicon," would probably prove impossible.

Personally, I think it's a concept of "growing and expanding" your transgendered life. "Does today represent a new opportunity to take advantage of....and do I do that!"

I'd like to think that I am a "Practicing CD." By some people's Standards, I might not be. Some TS Gurls might define The Line as 24/7, full-blown hormone regimen, outing yourself to all comers, and marching in rallies. For someone else, it might be A Trip to The Mailbox in a dress.

My good friend Joann posts on here periodically about her " TG To Do Lists," and what she has accomplished during The Past year. I was always struck by That Idea. No matter what The Progress is, if your growing and expanding your horizons, you are most certainly "practicing" something. Isn't that The Idea?

Peace and Love, Joanie

[jacques]

hi,
we are all different and live in different circumstances.
our cross dressing largely depends on our circumstances and needs- for some of us it may be a hobby that we enjoy in private and for others there is a real need to be recognised in public as a female.
What I like about this website is the loving acceptance of all members and lack of judgementalism. This has certainly helped me understand and accept my CD-ing and I thank you all.
luv Jacques

[jenna_woods]

I agree some of us take it further than othere, my self at this time I can't go futher, to full time,

[Jonianne]

.......eyebrows and shaving and femme hairstyle are a little hard to hide........of course that doesn't have to mean full femme.

I do this every day, but don't really consider it crossdressing, because it's just how I present myself daily. If I went any further over "the line" I'm sure it would start affecting my relationships and job.

[CLARRISA]

I totally understand the analogy and will make no attempt to deride it, though i think the cliff bit is where you start to take hormones and made the decision to become and live fulltime as a woman...I'd say i've been slowly working myself up to the cliffs edge,and i'm flat down peering over the edge..I've comes as far as, regular shaving and tanning(cream),having ears pierced, regular moisturizing, regular going out (not clubs) enfemme to shops etc...trimming eyebrows(carefully)...but won't grow my hair, have a femmine cut etc, no mani/pedicures...for the moment thats where i am...