Forgiveness or permission?

[Lorileah]

The old adage, it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission seems to be the rule here.

What we know (at least what I have read and understood) is that the majority of GG's would rather you tell them early in the relationship than after...oh 20 years. Why? Because things get comfortable. You have routines. You have families, soccer practice, PTA meetings, friends and neighbors. This turns all that upside down.

I am going to say that I don't need to know every detail of my SO's life before we got together. For that matter I really don't need to know every detail of what they do today (OMG did she have wine with lunch????). But somethings have a bearing on the structure of the family. And you , as CD's (TG's TS's DQ's or other initials) know this. Yet you hide things because why? YOU are afraid. No consideration for anyone else, just YOU are afraid. You are afraid you will lose what you have, a partner who stands by you, who comforts you, who shares almost everything with you except your secret. How nice.

So I guess what I am doing here is preaching to the choir again. Those of you who came "out" early know that things work out better. Those of you who are still hiding. what are you gaining? You know (in your heart you know) that when you get caught things will be worse. So why are you waiting?

[Nicole Erin]

Cause they don't want to ruin their precious suburban lives.

See, a lot of CD's who are in hiding tend to have that "mold" of normal that they are not allowed to break. For the suburbanite, they are not allowed to step out of the bounds of normalcy.

I can't really say though cause I have not lived in the suburbs since I was 18 and at home.

For some of us, being "out" is easier. Our lives are more -
Aggrivating families or "baby daddys", kids getting suspended often, layoffs from the local factory, neighbors one would love to shoot, and caring less about the home cause it is just a deteriorating rental ghetto place.

So yeah, the better off one has life, the more likely they are to hide their lifestyles. Ghettos bitches like me, yeah so what if someone knows, what's gonna happen? Our neighbors have too many of their own problems to care about the local CD'er.

[Karen7cd]

With myself, cding is something I enjoyed when I was young, but I only did it a few times, mostly to learn how to take a girls bra off smoothly and quickly... but there was a certain titillation. Then a few years ago it did it, I thought to satisfy my SO desires.
My SO could not handle certain things that were obvious to all that that know.
Now it is a escape from my life.
What I am saying is that there may be an ebb and flow to outrdesires to dress. At the time we enter a relationship, dressing may have no bearing. How may of us answer the question truthfully when asked how many people we have been with? If we are straight
we reduce the number by 40% when talking to a GG and if we are talking to Guys we increase it by 40%.
Karen

[Fran Moore]

Each of us is different, and every relationship is different. How many of us who "didn't tell" for whatever reason, could have lost the chance of life with a wonderful woman who may have "ran for the hills" when told "before", but was in a much better "place" to deal with the revelation, when told later? Everything happens for a reason, good, bad, or indifferent. I truly believe there is no "one size fits all" path thru life.

Peace.

Suzanne:)

[sallyjones]

confidence is not something you can buy. although some gg's like cd's and some dont . if your in a relationship and are a true cd then it is to your advantage to tell. just my opinion.

[KayC]

I can't help but feel a reaction to Nicole's statement. "Precious suburban lives"? First off, I'm not in suburbia, and second, maybe a guy shouldn't involve himself in someone else's life if he's not going to take into consideration the affect he has on her. I don't feel my fiance needs my permission to dress or live how he wants to live, but I do feel I should have the educated option of deciding for myself if I can live with him as is, and I can't do that if I don't know how he is! No one should take that right away from someone else. This does affect both parties so both should be considered.

[Karren H]

You really want to go there..... Ok

(and I love my presious friggin suburban life btw!!! )

I didn't tell mainly because I didn't want anyone to know I'm a pervert!!! Plain and simple... And I would have never told had I not been so damn sloppy as to leave a couple items at the bottom of my closet.. Dumb dumb dumb... So call me a cheater and a liar.... I could care less what you think or anyone else!!

Yeah the truth will set you free... Free of your love... Your family... Your livelyhood.. Your money.. And your pride... Given our hobby..... The truth isn't the solution to everyones problems as is preached here so often...

It still amazes me that there's a stratification of crossdressers into those who told and had good out comes... And those who haven't told... And guess whom passes judgment and makes whom feel like s#*t all the time?

[ronny]

Life is as simple or as complex as we are human. If we could make a fit all mold for us someone would decline. We are individuals....unique and quiet complex. Thus, we do what we do for many reasons. Just look at the variety of us here on this site. For me as a single...the transition to ts (m2f) was reasonable. But that may not be the case for you. A suggestion : Let's just love and accept one another for who we are! Enjoy life...enjoy being a girl.

Roni

[Ugly Michele]

There are two parts to this.

One) there is the part of she wants a perfect mate, not that were broken but aren't what she thought. Fitting into the perfect suburbia life it doesn't.

Two) There is the part that they don't feel involved in as to what they think they should be the fulfiller of all needs, and jealous of the other woman (ourselves).

I won't say how I have the in site for this but do. This is also the opinion of myself from my point of view.

[Ralph]

Lorileah, I have always found that philosophy ("better to ask forgiveness than permission") an indication of complete to-hell-with-everyone-else narcissism at best, and a psychopath at worst. A person who goes by that attitude has put his or her own wants ahead of everyone else, most particularly people you claim to love. If you had the slightest care for the other person, you WOULD ask permission first, and if the answer is no you would honor that answer.

[jenniferj]

I think we have a very broad cross-section of "don't-ask-don't-tell" to "we wear each other's undies" here, and there seems to be a more than healthy amount of self-righteousness smeared over everything.

In general I think honesty is the best policy, although this has been costly to many of our kind. Young crossdressers frequently believe that crossdressing is something they will outgrow, and older ones are frequently ashamed and embarrassed that they haven't. And nobody, no matter how much we love her/him, can always be trusted to act rationally. And so we hide it from our wives, knowing that maybe -just maybe- we can finally work up the strength to purge once and for all. It hardly ever works.

I feel like I'm wobbling over a point here, but can't quite zero in. Basically, no single answer is going to be right for everybody. Some wives are very accepting and others are disgusted by what we do. You have to figure out where your wife is on this spectrum and respect her feelings, while finding a way to live with your own needs.

It can be helpful for your wife to know about your dressing, even if she wants no part of it. A number of years ago, DearSweetWife and the kids went to spend a long weekend at her sister's. I of course, took full advantage of my then-infrequent "alone" time. She returned on Monday morning after I had left for work, and I received a tearfull phone call.

"Were you alone all weekend" she asked.
"Yes, why".
"There are two wineglasses in the sink with lipstick marks."
"Sorry, hon, I overslept this morning and didn't clean up the kitchen".
"OK, what about the used condoms on the floor by our bed?"
"I was trying to use them instead of water balloons, but they popped. I was so busy mopping up water that I forgot them".
"Oh, ok. What time will you be home tonight?"

Sometimes the truth IS better than the alternative. :love:

-jj

[Sally2005]

The way I see it...life is not black and white. There is a whole lot of grey in between. The reason we have a lot of the problems we do in this world is because people convince themselves there is either right or wrong... when there should be a compromise. Some CDers have told their SOs and have been separated and divorced. Some are happy. Some CDers are looking for a life change others just want to carry on in private. One way is to not say anything offical. Just be yourself and show your SO what you feel comfortable showing with the idea that eventually she will have seen it all and there will be no surprise. I think the real question is are you hiding guilt, shame or just being practical?

[Teri Jean]

Lori, I hear what you are saying and when the idea of CDing became prevelant in my life I was widowed. I did come out to my daughters and they took it harder than I thought they would but then they only knew their father.

So when there was the possibility of a SO I listened to my sisters here and spoke to the girl who I found a strong attraction to.
She was supportive and concerned about safety in a conservative environment. The question is where does this relationship go from here? No one knows but she wasn't led to believe one thing and dealt another. Do I still care for her, the answer is yes and she continues to be friends.

So Lori and those reading this thread I would have to say the best thing one can do is be forthcoming and up front. Difficult, yes but there is the strong chance they will not walk. How you tell them your secret is only yours as you know better than anyone. BTW Lori the lady in my life shares the same name as you.

Teri

[sherri52]

By speaking early you take your chance of losing a relationship. If you wait you take the chance of losing your livelyhood with someone you love. Tell them early and let the love grow.

[Samantha Girl]

We are all different, we all have different situations, we can't all be out. Out to our SO, out to our friends or family. I understand how some find it dishonest to not tell their SO, it is. I understand how some would say it's selfish, but that's a bit simple minded. Your family and it's situation may wind up being much better off if you never say a word. It's hard for me to think about having to lie to my girl forever and have to hide it. No judgement, I just couldn't do it. I struggled with it for a while, 4 1/2 years, and I finally told her. But I'm young and we've been together for 6 years, which is waaaaay easier than having to tell your wife you've been lying for 20 years. There is no easy answer.

I understand the fear and the trade off of CDing secretly. You feel like you NEED to do this, and it's a part of you, but if she found out... you have no idea what'll happen, will you lose her? Will you lose everything? Will she look at me differently? Yeah she will. But that doesn't mean she won't get used to it. If you have a great relationship and really know each other (except for the CDing) she won't be super surprised. If you love each other it can work. The hard part is them to get over the lies. The longer you lie, the harder it is. Plus finally actually telling her will give you a lot of points. Being found out by your SO will be much much worse.

Again, I know some of you just CAN'T tell your SO. I get it. Not saying you should, only you can make that decision. But living in secret and lying takes it's toll on you, trust me, and I only did it for 4 1/2 years. Do what's right for you, what you feel you can live with.

My girl accepted me AND Samantha, I am infinitely lucky ;) I wish that for all of you :)

[Jenny Beth]

For some coming out has worked out well, for others, and there's plenty here it has cost them dearly. I don't think it's fair to expect everyone to be so upfront about this lifestyle just because some have been fortunate with the outcome.

[5150 Girl]

Those of you who came "out" early know that things work out better. Those of you who are still hiding. what are you gaining? You know (in your heart you know) that when you get caught things will be worse. So why are you waiting?

I have been down the "When you get caught things will be worse road. THerefore, when my exd left me, I vowed that I would come out before I got to overly attached emotionaly if I was ever able to get a GG to ever pay attention to me again.

So, when I met Polar Bear for the first time, I had just got back to town with my buddies, we had been to the race track. However, on our second meeting, I was en-fem, but then again it was Haloween. She observed that I was to pretty for it to just be a 1 time thing for the holiday. I laid it all on the line, no holds barred.
We are still together, and happy. She takes me out dressed, buys me tings, takes me shooping, and heps me try things on, the whole 9 yards.

Yes, I talked to a couple ohter girls on internet dating servies before I met my Polar Bear, and yes I mentioned my other side. It didn't seem to be an insurmountable problem with them, I belive there were other factors that nixed those deals.

[JulieK1980]

I always tell in the begining of the relationship, I'm much happier with women that support my fem side.... But that's just me.. I couldn't even imagine what it would be like to live in hiding for 20 years, so I don't...

[Lorileah]

Let me twist this a bit. Is it OK to lose 5, 10 , 20 plus years of that person's life? Do you hope that these years will add up to "I am too deep now, so OK dress like you want" in a relationship? Someone said that they didn't want to mess up the good life they had built with their SO, but yet hiding and keeping this secret does just that does it not?

The point was made that it was unfair to expect everyone to be upfront from the beginning. Is it fair to hide and spring this on someone who has worked hard to built a relationship that was quite frankly built on deception?

Thanks all for your posts.

[StephanieT]

For me, I have experimented with dressing since I was a child. When I met my wife, I was not dressing at all. I was macho and totally guy. It is only in the past couple of years I have started to understand why I CD. I don't think I can be faulted for not coming clean at the begining since I was not dressing at all. Now almost 25 years later I understand myself. Do I tell suffer the conseqences or stay in the closet.

[Andy66]

Thank you, Lori.

Let me tell you a sad story. I loved and lived with a man for five years. Despite his good qualities, he secretly felt very insecure and had a hard time believing he was loved. He was also very "vanilla" in bed and judgmental of anyone else who was more adventurous... which made me frustrated and ashamed of my sexual tastes.

When he died of cancer I found plenty of evidence that he had not been what he appeared in many ways. Part of it was porn on his laptop that told me he secretly was not so vanilla. I can't help thinking how much closer we might have been if he had been more open, and if I had had the courage to be more open with him too. It saddens me to think what a waste of a life it is, to go about feeling like your true self is unloveable.

I don't want to ever find myself or any future lover in that position. I don't like to see any of my friends here in that position either. I truly believe it's worth the risk to tell the truth. And if you realized you were a crossdresser, trans or whatever later on in the marriage, it may be difficult but still better to tell her, than to keep it bottled inside and feel ashamed for the rest of your life.

[Lorileah]

Anne, I am sorry about your loss. You make a very good point, one that needs to be repeated, how much closer you can be when you are honest in the beginning. Seems that that closeness would be better than the nights spent on the couch when you get caught.

Stephanie, my Colorado sister, if this is new, then I would tell. I understand why people hide. But life is short for both sides.

[PretzelGirl]

Stephanie, I have a path very similar to yours. I tried some things on as a teenager and that was it. Then in my 40s it all came back to me plus much more. So did I tell her that I tried on stuff as a youngster? I honestly can't tell you. It wouldn't have been a big deal and we are very open with each other, so I suspect I did. But it would have been such a non-event, I can't recall it. But once everything came back, she has been there side by side with me.

I am a firm believer in telling your wife that you dress. I follow the same line of thinking as Lori in that when you are married, you are joining your lives and what affects one, affects the other. Plus I feel that hiding something from your wife is not respectful of her as your partner and becomes a ticking time bomb. So my wife and I are very honest with each other.

What is right for you? Only you can figure that out for sure. You can guess what I recommend, but it is yours and your wife's live you are making this decision for, so you have to work through it.

[Jenny Beth]

Let me twist this a bit. Is it OK to lose 5, 10 , 20 plus years of that person's life? Do you hope that these years will add up to "I am too deep now, so OK dress like you want" in a relationship? Someone said that they didn't want to mess up the good life they had built with their SO, but yet hiding and keeping this secret does just that does it not?

The point was made that it was unfair to expect everyone to be upfront from the beginning. Is it fair to hide and spring this on someone who has worked hard to built a relationship that was quite frankly built on deception?

Thanks all for your posts.



I've always believed that honesty is the best policy and I commend you for doing the right thing. But I also have to say that this "holier than thou" attitude is not helping those who are still dealing with the guilt and shame that so many here are struggling with. This is the last place we need fingers pointed and coming from one of our own is hard to take. I might be one of the fortunate ones with a supportive SO and I know what it took to get here, not everyone can do the same.

[Lorileah]

and I disagree. When we reinforce the hiding in the closet we reinforce that what we do is "bad, perverted, or abnormal."

When people hide and keep this part of themselves a secret it does not do any good for them or their families. I want them to stop feeling guilty and shameful. Why should they? Because they have been told from day one that they are wrong. So they hide and build a family for years but then something happens that brings it all to the surface. That could be the SO coming home early or they left something out or some other small sign that often can be interpreted as wanting to get caught. OR what seems to be a common thread here they just one day pop out of the closet and throw it in the face of the loved one. Neither are well planned moves. Both often lead to defensive postures on the SO's part, then the TG retreats and becomes angry because the SO just doesn't understand. And even after hundreds of posts where the results have been better if you tell early, people still hide here.

Ok maybe I am coming off as "holier than thou" but my hope is that at least one person reads these posts and says "I need to tell my fiance' (future or recent wife) before we get into the mortgage, kids thing and then we both feel trapped." I would also like for TG's everywhere to stop hiding. Stop hanging on the gay coattails and hoping that when the gays get rights we will be included (doubtful) then where will we be? Starting from where the GLB community was in 1969.

As a group we need to quit being afraid. That will start with more coming out to family and especially spouses. We need to stop linking ourselves to sexual behaviors. We need to educate people that we are not clowns for their entertainment nor are we psychotic. So again I disagree that we should allow people to hide. Who does it benefit? Not the spouse who now has to figure out why her loving husband has kept this from her so long and if she needs to get out of a relationship that she has invested so much in because her husband has decided he wants to be the girl when she was sure of the gender roles. It isn't fair to put someone, anyone, in that position when you know you have the power. 50% or more of marriages fail anyway, why add an extra impetus?

[JamieOH]

I tried to reply to this earlier, from my phone, but wasnt able to get it to post for whatever reason... Anyway, my take on it is this:

You should, no matter when in the relationship it is, tell her. It is important. Even if she rejects it, and doesnt want to accept it, let her know. It isnt fair to her to find out by finding a stray pic, or some articles of clothing... and let me tell you, if she finds a bra or panty, I think she'll be more inclined to think affair than crossdresser.. Mine, when I finally told her, she was freaked out... Her cousin is gay, and started out crossdressing.. then finally came out that he was gay.. so of coure, she thought "OMG, He's GAY!" Which of course is not true, and of course I reassured her, then she went on the " You want to have the surgery?" and I assured her no.. I just like womesn clothes, the way they look, the way they feel.. the way I feel... I enjoy being feminine, and revelling in it.. BUT, let me assure you, she tolerated it until she realy saw me in a bra, panty, with a little cami top.. the look of sheer disgust was not cool... She was freaked out!.. So I hid again... always underdressing at work, but getting home early enough to change real fast... Then one day I started sneaking into bed in a babydoll, or chemise.. I always got up earler than her, so was pretty easy.. finally one night, she woke up, and saw what I was wearing.. a little white babydoll, with pink polka dots, and LOTS of pink lace.. and pretty lace trimmed pink panties with a little bow on the front.. I had also shaved my legs, chest, and underarms.. MUCH to my surprise, she didnt freak out, she didnt look disgusted, she ran her hand along my side, feeling the fabric against her hand.. up along the spaghetti strap, and gave it a quick tug and SNAP. then she giggled.. and smiled when I said OW!.. then she went back to rubbing my back and sides.. asking if it was an older one, or new.. I told her I've had it a while.. She was really quite cool with it.. I think enough time has passed now, she is realizing, that her fears were unfounded, and yes, even after telling her, I'm still the same MAN she married.. And, more important, that I have always, and still do love her. So, ask permission or forgivness, with this it's a whole lot of both... but regardless, you need to be a MAN, and tell her, upfront and honest.. Be true to her, and she'll be true to you... if that is enough to break it off between you, guess what? She really doesnt have your back, and that means, she really isnt your soul mate dude.. A true friend and partner will have your back no matter WHAT you do, and it's selfish not to let her into all of your secrets and idiosyncrasies.. She already knows about your blowing your nose into your hands in the shower, and the way you scratch your self(DOWN THERE) and then snif your fingers.. if THAT aint enough to break the two of you up, then this should be pretty smooth sailing relatively speaking..