The TRUTH about CDs being "passable"!

[docrobbysherry]

Ok, Gina started a "truth" thread. Now, it seems to be changing into a, "Am I passable?", thread! I don't want to hijack it, so here goes!

I recently attended the SCC in Atlanta. It was my FIRST time around 1000's of CDs. So, how many did I see that were REALLY passable? At close range, and in MY opinion, maybe a dozen! And, if they spoke, most then failed!:sad:

How many there did I think may have been FEMALES? I remember having questions about 2! And, I only heard one of those 2 speak. So, I'm fairly sure she was someone's GG SO! If not, she could pass ANYWHERE, ANYTIME! So, MAYBE one, out of a 1000!?

Now, did that BOTHER the other "girls" there? NOT ONE BIT! They strutted their stuff in the hotel, out of the hotel, and all over Atlanta!:D

Here's the message I got about passing from the SCC:

You're NOT going to pass everywhere, every time, with everyone! If that bothers u, stay in the closet! Like me.:sad:

Try to look your regular, everyday female best, if u desire to "fit in". And, be a drag queen at the clubs.:D

The girls I went out with, didn't give a darn if someone noticed we weren't females. ( Good thing, because a number of us didn't!) We weren't bothering anyone, and if someone started bothering US, I would have felt SORRY for THEM!:brolleyes:

If I got a big thrill going out dressed, I'd do it! And, I'd go out in a minute, to be with other girls!
Otherwise, I believe going out dressed, has little to do with passing for CDs that do it regularly!:eek:

Ok, blast away, all!:heehee:

[AllieSF]

Sherri,

You hit the target well. I have some regular Tfriends with whom I go out regularly for dinner, drinks, plays, museums and bars of all types. Only a few of them are truly passable in my old eyes. However, passing for me and the others is more focussed on not being read from a distance, fitting in with the attire for the occasion (and none of us dress our age!), being proud of who we are with the correct attitude and confidence to go where we want. Each of us has a different level of sensitivity regarding being read, hearing comments and seeing some of the "looks" of others at us, individually or as a group. Attitude, passing, fitting in and confidence are only just words used to try to describe us and others. In reality, for me and my friends it is primarily about going out where and when we want to have an enjoyable time together and with everyone else out there, conversing and interacting with whomever we can.

[skirtsuit]

Doc-
You're right, most of us have no hope of ever really passing ourselves off as women. Anyone who gets a close look at me or hears me talk will know. Do I care? NO! That's the trick to enjoying yourself out & about, as you saw in Atlanta.

I think the best I can do, and I have mostly achieved this, is to not really be noticed on the street. The trick is to look femine enough so that people don't give you a second look. I don't dress to blend in, but modestly and nicely, so hopefully that's what people notice.

We'd love to see some pics of you on the street!

All the Best,
Ann / SS

PS - I have met fully transitioned transexuals that definately 'pass' by any standard, but there is a lot of expensive surgery and hormones involved, not just clothes and makeup.

[Sophie_C]

Now that's proper reality. I do like hearing this over the nonsense of "if you're confident you'll pass." If you're not going to fully transition, accept that you'll be somewhat read and embrace it. Be a CD and be proud of it. Be comfortable in your own skin. Be a little comical about it (but never in a negative way). Have fun with it. You only live once, so make your choice, and make the best of it.

[Hope]

NO ONE will pass 100% of the time.

I once dated a GG who was 6'1" and she told me that there have been times where people have asked her if she was TS (she wasn't). Which by the way is why you don't ask that question - think about how that girl will feel if the answer is "no," but I digress.

On the other hand, I would also wager that most folks are not as hyper vigilant and don't pay nearly as much attention or have nearly as high standards as someone who thinks that only 1 in 1000 girls pass. I would bet that the OP might be the type to assume that my girlfriend was a guy.

Will everyone pass all the time? Of course not. But with sufficient practice, and work, most of us can pass most of the time. But there will always be that one jerk who has to ruin it.

[sherri52]

Sherry most of what you say is very true. The number of cd'ers that pass is low. Theere are a number of girls here that not only pass but get hit on by other men who don't know. The voice is the definite killer though. There is a select few that can speak in a passable manner, the rest just think they can. I can't pass or speak, but I know it and still go out occasionally and go shopping. I have what you may call "the I don't care Syndrome".

[KateSpade83]

I PASS 95% of the time and have an ok enough femme voice for short lengths of talking but my voice is not good enough for long conversations. I've successfully shopped, used crowded women's washrooms, used dress rooms, went to church, and went through downtown Chicago and passed.

[windycissy]

You can't fool all of the people all of the time! It's a bell-shaped curve, on the one extreme are the truly unpassable-at-midnight-in-a-coalmine, on the other extreme are few lucky ones who strut their stuff at clubs like AsiaSF, and in the middle are the rest of us who, with practice, the right clothes and makeup and insane self-confidence, can fool some of the people some of the time. I love the challenge of moving that needle as far as I can.

[Karren H]

100% of the time..... I don't pass anywhere and I could care less!! :)

[SuzanneBender]

Right on Sherry.

For me it use to be about trying to pass and then I realized no matter what I may not draw attention but true honest passing isn't going to happen without hours of plastic surgery and a heck of a lot more voice training.

I used to live in fear of being clocked, read or whatever you call it. I realized it was preventing me from being Suzanne in the world. Once I got over having to be the woman that I can never be going out became a lot easier and actually fun.

Most people are too busy to notice or care. Those that do notice typically are to polite to ask just incase you are a GG. I have also found the younger generation to be very accepting. As an aside, I had a wonderful shopping experience this weekend where three young ladies, fellow shoppers, helped me find shoes to match an outfit.

I fly en femme, shop en femme, and go out en femme every opportunity I can. For me it is more about representing the TG community in a way that moves us towards societal acceptance. Allie hit the nail on the head and you saw it first hand at SCC its about pride in who we are. Its time for us to move out of the shadows.

[kellycan27]

Passing in your own mind because you have self confidence, or your I don't care what anyone thinks attitude?
Or passing as in being out there doing your thing, being noticed, and not being read?

[NathalieX66]

My mind is so programmed to look at the female hourglass figure, that if something is not in the right place on some way or another, I just have to look twice.
Women have a very distinct shape in their thigh-to-knee area, that if that shape ain't there, something weird is happening.

[Salene]

And you should remember that were experts on the subject. It's alot harder to "pass" in the eyes of another CDer as opposed to a random dude at wal-mart.

[NathalieX66]

My mind is so programmed to look at the female hourglass figure, that if something is not in the right place on some way or another, I just have to look twice.
Women have a very distinct shape in their thigh-to-knee area, that if that shape ain't there, something weird is happening.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that women's femurs have this ability to rotate at the top socket in certain directions that men can't do, at least naturally....thus those sexy stances. This is one of those things that God gave women the ability to do in order to get that little head through the cervix during childbirth. IMHO, that's what makes a woman a woman.
The rest is superficial and cosmetic.

[weekend woman]

I know I don't pass, but that doesn't stop me from going out and enjoying myself. I even engage in small-talk with GG's in the nail salon while in the nail dryer, and no one ever ran away screaming "that's not a real woman". In fact never even got a dirty look. A little confidence goes a long way towards being accepted, which I think is just as important as passing if not more so.

[CherylFlint]

The question isn't "100% of the time", but rather "100% of the people", and the answer is no, I don't pass for 100% of the people that I come in contact with. I do, however, pass for some people 100% of the tiime.
For instance, when you're driving while dressed other drivers will see a woman. At the mall just walking around, and dressed like other women, I pass. And that's all I want. I don't particularly want to get into a conversation with everyone I see, nor do I want to push the issue. To "pass" isn't an "in your face" issue. "Passing" is to be accepted as a female on first glance, we're not talking about a full flege exam.
Anyway, some of us "pass" for the occasion and have fun doing it, I know I do. And if I'm not 100% convincing to 100% of the people who see me, that's okay too, all that does is make me try harder the next time I go out.
And, yes, I know that I'll never be 100% ALL of the time, but I sure have fun trying.

[lingerieLiz]

Sherry had the right message, but maybe the numbers were a little extreme. It really depends on the scrutiny one receives. Murry P used to have contests on his show where the audience would guess male or female. Most of the time they were right. On the other hand most people don't look at others. I'm constantly amazed at how people walking toward you will avert their eyes. I dress to blend in, not because I have to, but the clothes I wear and am comfortable in are what others normally wear. This week I was at a store and one of the women shopping there was wearing as my aunt called them a costume. She had on a whole nautical outfit that made her look like Gail Storm. While she carried it off she drew attention. If a CD had on the outfit the result would have been the same with people noticing.

A while back I was at Home Depot and a CD came in. He was tall, overweight, and dressed in a tight skirt, red blouse, stockings and heels. In another store he probably would not have noticed as much, but there the clicking of his heals on the cement caused several people to turn around and look. Because he was larger than most women customers spent time analyzing him. No one said anything, but the reactions were interesting. I got the impression that he didn't care what people thought and was doing his thing, which was fine.

My point is that few if any of us can truly pass. Even those who have transitioned seldom pass. When I was young I was repeatedly told that I would make a very pretty girl. While some of my features were passable others were not. I never really tried to pass because back then if you were caught you went to jail. I just didn't want to be any of the guys in there girlfriend. I absolutely prefered real ggs.

[Lorileah]

You mean...you mean...I don't blend in with the other 6'plus 190 pound size 11 shoe women in the world? Oh no!!! what ever will I do where ever will I go?

I'll do what I always do and go where I always go. Thanks DRS for exposing one of the myths here. Like I say it is perspective. From 100 feet away with nothing to compare me to I can "Pass". I agree no one here will pass 100% of the time probably not even 50%

[Rhonda Jean]

Let's see... How often do I detect some reaction from someone that indicates they've just seen a crossdresser? Almost never. How ofen do I truly pass? Almost never. The only thing I truly pass as is a nice person who goes way out of her way to look convincingly like a woman. That's what I am, and that's all I am.

I openly crossdressed for several years before I first came across someone who OBVIOUSLY read me. I was in my mid-20's, very skinny, mid-back length roller-set hair, stylishly dressed in a skirt suit (my wife's). To me at the time it was undetectable that I wasn't a woman, an opinion expressed by my wife. I agreed. I won't go into the whole story, but I was quite shaken by this revelation that someone, anyone, could possibly tell I wasn't quite what I pretended to be. In the mirror it was still undetectable. I've been around long enough to know now that this was just delusional. I saw what I wanted to see.

I think the prevailing public opinion of me would go something like, "I'll be damned! There's a guy dressed like a girl, and it's not nearly as repulsive, threatening, or off-putting as I thought it'd be!" That's about all I can hope for these days, and that's quite enough for me.

[sterling12]

You got it Doc! I think. Hopefully, you now understand.

We don't have to pass to be out in Public....and, you don't have to wear that mask!

Simple, ain't it. Now, if we can get about ten thousand more who hang out around here, to understand Those Concepts....Voila'!

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Tasha McIntyre]

You mean...you mean...I don't blend in with the other 6'plus 190 pound size 11 shoe women in the world? Oh no!!! what ever will I do where ever will I go?

:yt:

Seriously good post Doc.

I'm not fooling anyone that takes a proper look at me, but that's fine.....I don't care about that. What I do care about is presenting myself the best I can, and having a great time doing it.

Tash :)

[Jenniferpl]

Without a lot surgery, I will never pass.

[Jonianne]

.......I was quite shaken by this revelation that someone, anyone, could possibly tell I wasn't quite what I pretended to be. In the mirror it was still undetectable. I've been around long enough to know now that this was just delusional. I saw what I wanted to see.

I think the prevailing public opinion of me would go something like, "I'll be damned! There's a guy dressed like a girl, and it's not nearly as repulsive, threatening, or off-putting as I thought it'd be!" That's about all I can hope for these days, and that's quite enough for me.

Execelent post Rhonda! I love where you are at on your journey.

[Frédérique]

If I got a big thrill going out dressed, I'd do it! And, I'd go out in a minute, to be with other girls!
Otherwise, I believe going out dressed, has little to do with passing for CDs that do it regularly!

I would rather pass in a peripheral way than anything, but I’m sure we all have our own levels of comfort with passability. In my dreams I might enter that room with the thousand crossdressers and enjoy myself, but in reality I don’t show myself much, avoid groups, and engage from a distance. This is a private activity that I derive great pleasure from, so I keep my cards close to my cropped vest and shun the opportunity to lay my vulnerable self at the feet of others. That said, I think being among a group of crossdressers would be highly amusing – I wouldn’t be able to stop laughing, crying tears of joy, or both simultaneously. It would be great fun, with no real need to “pass” at all…:battingeyelashes:

[Claire Cook]

Let's see... How often do I detect some reaction from someone that indicates they've just seen a crossdresser? Almost never. How ofen do I truly pass? Almost never. The only thing I truly pass as is a nice person who goes way out of her way to look convincingly like a woman. That's what I am, and that's all I am.

I

Exactly! Even though I am "ma'am'ed" most of the time and have no hassles in the ladies' room, I know I'm probably being read -- if anyone has taken the time to worry about it. I'm getting more and more comfortable and confident, and people probably sense that. If I'm read as a guy who looks at least OK in a dress, my smile will say it all -- and that's a smile of pride!

Claire

[Paulacder]

Lets be honest, very few of us are passable. If you are out in public and dressed and you walk by someone and the say nothing don't automaticaly think you passed, that person was just to kind to stare or say something off color. I actually would rather have some one say," Hey that was a guy in Womans Cloths" " He really looks Good".....

[Beth-Lock]

In a big store or shopping mall, not a lot of people are people watching, and even less, people scrutinizing. Of course there are smart alecs everywhere. But most people just want to get on with their own life.
Watching people leave the apartment building in the morning is a case in point. They are focussed on getting out of there and to work. One Halloween morning I sat in the lobby all dressed in a skirt, etc., and with slightly goofy Halloween horns on my head. Most people did not even notice I was there. I think only one person may have noticed the horns, but I am not even sure about her. One day, one person was even so visually unconscious, that he sort of bounced off the far wall of the hall, on the way to work down the hall to the side door. Didn't even see the wall. It is like watching rats go through a maze they have memorized.
Speaking of rats, three times, I walked down the hallway of my apartment with a pet rat on my shoulder, and even though she was close enough to one passing woman that she could have kissed her, the woman did not notice until the third or fourth day I tried it.

[Sally24]

I recently attended the SCC in Atlanta. It was my FIRST time around 1000's of CDs. So, how many did I see that were REALLY passable? At close range, and in MY opinion, maybe a dozen! And, if they spoke, most then failed!:sad:


And you should remember that were experts on the subject. It's alot harder to "pass" in the eyes of another CDer as opposed to a random dude at wal-mart.

While the basic idea of your post I agree with, I think that it's unrealistic to gauge "passing" at a TG convention. You already know that 98% of the women there are TG. That plus your mindset, being one of us, makes you more tuned to find those little things that stand out.

That being said, sure, if you aren't comfortable with being read, then stay home! I think myself and some of my friends pass often, but not nearly even 90% of the time. Do we look good though? Hell yeah!! While I love being treated like a women, I don't require that you beleive I was born a women. If I leave a little doubt as to just who I am, I'll be happy with that.

[Kate Simmons]

I'm not as concerned about "passing" as a CD as I am about "failing" as a person RS.:)

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I used to say I had a love/hate relationship with the concept of "passing," but now I go so far as to say I have a hate/hate relationship with it. I hate, hate, the way our community pushes so hard for passing, I think it does nothing but make people insecure about how they look and also pushes the notion that crossdressers are trying to trick people.

If you're living full time and undergo reconstructive surgery or at least use enough hormones to feminize your looks, that's one thing. But for those of us who are CD's rather than TS's, stop being so bloody afraid to have people know you're a crossdresser! Instead, just do your best to be the best looking, most confident crossdresser you can be.

I'm not saying everyone needs to take it to the extreme I do and present entirely as a man in a skirt. Heck, even I still do the wig and makeup game sometimes too for fun. I'm saying, instead of stressing yourself out by making passing convincingly the goal, find out the look that actually is best for your body type, do the makeup that actually accentuates your natural features rather than trying to hide them by disguising yourself.

The more of us that go out and confidently show ourselves to be crossdressers, the more publicly accepted we'll be because people will see is in a much more positive light.

[Paula_56]

The is a great thread, and a breath of fresh air.

My hope while dress is too blend, and when read have people, and especialy women, think "wow "he" looks great!, what good taste,

Paula

[~Seana~]

I 100 % disagree with your numbers.I think far more "pass" than what you are saying. I know I dont but I enjoy getting as close as I can.
I had an interesting experience the other day. Tobie my spouse and I have had a youn TG friend coming to stay with us for the odd weekend for the last few months. On one such visit, I met her up at the carpark to walk her to our place .
Now to be fair, she's TG not CD but she's also pre-hormone TG which puts her squarely at the same level as a CD.She's also a young TG in her early 20's so doesnt have some of the telltale signs like heavy facial hair, but she definitely does have some and if you look closely you'll see it.

As she was getting out of her car, there were a couple other vehicles parking at the same time. Mostly filled with men. They all paused to check her out as she gathered her things and got out of the car.

It was at that point I realized they werent assessing whether she was male or female. They were checking out her ASS in those jeans she had on. VEry clearly they had no idea, and were looking at her as they would any woman on the street, with desire. Cant say I blame them she's rather hot:) I'd love to be able to say she's the only TG or CD I know that DOES pass, but she just isnt. I know at least 6 like that of 20-30 I know well enough to have studied them personally and spoken with them who unless you were told, you would never know. Even with my limited experience, sherri the numbers are much greater than you're suggesting and I'm not in a position to know all that many.
Now as you say, the voice DOES tell a tale. That said this is one area as CD's , we just let ourselves down.Because female voice an mannerisms are attainable, and there's many how to's on the net, all of which say practice makes perfect.We could pass on voice, but for 99% of us, we choose not to. ( Amanda reminds herself to do some voice training this week!)

Oh...and I'm with the previous poster. You dont need the mask , what you're lacking isnt female face but confidence.

Amanda

[willowgurl]

The only place I worry about "passing" is at home with my boyfriend. As long as considers me "his girlfriend" I'm satisfied.

[Stephenie S]

Remember, it's not doc that needs the mask, it's Sherry. Sherry IS the mask. Without the mask, there would be no Sherry.

Steph

[Taylor186]

From what I've seen at support groups, the ubiquitous internet pictures and out-and-about, Sherry's 1 out of a 1000 is too high. Even less pass the perceived 100% woman in all social situations test.

But this whole dialog requires a definition for passing and mine is quite strict. The fact that many can blend in or are ignored in a crowd is great, but it's not passing in my book.

Of course if your definition is less demanding then you will consider more as passing.

I don't pass, period. But, I have fun when I'm out and don't worry about second looks. I've found most people quite accommodating. I view it more as "sharing a secret," than as "I'm fooling you."

As Lady Bunny (I think it was LB) said on her blog one time, "it's the rare woman with a perfect face and lips who really looks good in bright red lipstick: most likely you're not her."
.

[Katesback]

God I hate that P word.

[DaphneGrey]

I never worry about passing and don't care one lick about what people think. When asked about it I just say my name is Daphne. I am a who I am plain and simple. But I agree with Op most do not pass and that's ok. It is all about being you, If you are confident in your own skin you do just fine.

[Stephanie Heplby]

I once dated a GG who was 6'1" and she told me that there have been times where people have asked her if she was TS (she wasn't). Which by the way is why you don't ask that question - think about how that girl will feel if the answer is "no," but I digress.


Things never to ask a woman (which could be a long list):
1. Are you pregnant?
2. Are you a transsexual?
3. How old are you?

Similarly...

Things never to as a man (which could also be a long list):

1. Are you pregnant?
2. Are you a transsexual?
3. How old are you?

As Hope said, what if the answer is "no"? Oops. (In some cases, if the answer is "yes", then oops.)

Basically, these questions are nobody's business, so don't ask. (Of course, if the person in question is a good friend, then all bets are off, but that goes without saying.)

As a comedian said, you only ask if a woman is pregnant, when you see the baby's head coming out.

Use this same sort of rule in other areas of your life and avoid much embarrassment.

[Karren H]

I'm still amazed no one has posted... "The Truth... You can handle the Truth!". Lol. I rarely pass as a human... Been trying to pass as a hockey player for years.. That's not going well either..

[docrobbysherry]

I 100 % disagree with your numbers.I think far more "pass" than what you are saying. I know I dont but I enjoy getting as close as I can.
a young TG in her early 20's so doesnt have some of the telltale signs like heavy facial hair, but she definitely does have some and if you look closely you'll see it.

Now as you say, the voice DOES tell a tale. That said this is one area as CD's , we just let ourselves down.Because female voice an mannerisms are attainable, and there's many how to's on the net, all of which say practice makes perfect.We could pass on voice, but for 99% of us, we choose not to. ( Amanda reminds herself to do some voice training this week!)

Oh...and I'm with the previous poster. You dont need the mask , what you're lacking isnt female face but confidence.

Amanda

I guess I wasn't clear, Amanda! I think over 90% of the girls at the conference passed on occasion. Like, walking by folks in a mall. Sitting a few tables away in a restaurant, or while out in the evening. Maybe even I could pass, from behind! :heehee: But, VERY few, if any, could pass 100% of the time!:straightface:

Remember, I was watching them walk, move, hearing them talk, etc., at very close range! I've been studying women for 60 years. I only saw 2 at the conference, that mite have "fooled" me up close!:eek:


Remember, it's not doc that needs the mask, it's Sherry. Sherry IS the mask. Without the mask, there would be no Sherry.
Steph

Correct, Steph. And without Sherry, I wouldn't even BE HERE!:eek:

[Lorileah]

Correct, Steph. And without Sherry, I wouldn't even BE HERE!:eek:

where would you be? Everyone has to be somewhere. Unless you are a real "Nowhere man"

[AlisonRenee]

Women have a very distinct shape in their thigh-to-knee area, that if that shape ain't there, something weird is happening.

-- if I keep the skirt length within reason, my legs are pretty feminine. I just have to know when to quit!

[RachelRICD]

Lots of interesting replies. I have been crossdressing for many years. Never found "passing" all that important but being comfortable with myself #1. I have had 3 wives all of whom I told before we married and 2 of whom supported me until they wanted out of the marriage then used my crossdressing in various ways to their advantage. My current wife is supportive to the degree that I can dress anytime but she refuses to let me go out.

Here is the irony. I recently retired and took a part time job as a female. I have not told my wife for obvious reasons but spending 3 days a week as "one of the girls" is just too good to pass up. Just last week the company I worked for abrubtly closed and I applied for another female job, got it and start work next week in a very public office. I wear dresses and heels and sweaters, skirts, suits to work along with makeup, jewelery, and am accepted by all my co-workers yet I don't really "pass". After all these years I am having a wonderful time not just at work but other public places too. I would love to tell my wife how happy I am but that would be the end of a great marriage so I am somewhat on the horns of a dilemma I will have to work out.

Be that as it may, "passing is a by product of being at peace with who you are not how you look. If you don't want to be "read" stay home. If you want to explore your feminity to the fullest get comfortable put on your heels and venture out. My only regret, I waited too long...LOL :love:

[JoAnne Wheeler]

Passable ??? Very, very few of us are completely "passable". But I like to

feel and believe that it what is on the inside that counts the most. I doubt

that I would ever be "passable" on the outside, but on the inside I am all

woman. That is all that matters to me.

JoAnne Wheeler

[Sophie Haworth]

Ok, so here I am the one who it seems is the odd one out, I have been doing this since my early teens and going out even then.

Passing has always been very important to me, I am not too sure if I can get this across in writing, but for me when I dress I do become Sophie the woman, and not a man who likes to dress up in women's clothing and go out.

Sophie has taken on a life of her own and enjoys herself.

I do put an immense amount of work into being Sophie and in truth I do not think that I am very passable, but over the last 4 years or so I have had some, what I would describe as "fantastic times out passing".

I have had tremendous support from people here, and I am very thankful for that. In my early days I just did not pass, and I could not understand why and it was soul destroying.

But over these later years, I have got better at it.

Finding the right hairstyle and colour has been a really big thing, wearing clothes that really suit me has also been very important, getting the walk has been very difficult, but I am better at it, my mannerisms I think are better, I do think we can over do the "acting like a woman" bit and stick out like a sore thumb, and now the voice is much better, I practice and even telephone myself from work, and when I get home and hear the message, it is a bit of a surprise to hear her, but a pleasant surprise.

I do put myself out there, I try to meet the postman every now and then, and say hello, my neighbours have seen Sophie, and as far as I am aware that is who they have seen.

I have been shopping at the supermarket often and had small chats with the assistants, again as far as I am aware they were talking and serving Sophie.

I have been to the garage twice and had punctures repaired as Sophie, and again as far as I am aware passed.

This Saturday I am planning to go to the MEN Arena in Manchester and that is a massive thing, I have posted pictures elsewhere here showing the outfit I have put together, (not happy with the hair though).

If I thought I was not going to pass then I would not be going.

(This Saturdays outfit)
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120364

I am not though TS, I am CD who absolutely loves being Sophie and being a woman for as long as it lasts.

Even with all these outings, it takes a great deal of courage to step out the door, but it is Sophie stepping out.

Now when you look at my photos and videos I am sure you will say to yourself "How can he pass as much as he says it can"?

Honestly I have no idea. Perhaps I am seriously kidding myself.

I do get read, but I am never certain if I was or not.

I did meet with a GG earlier this year as a one off and she was able to give me her opinion and was very honest because she knows the importance of Sophie and was able to say that if she saw me in the street she would have no idea. That comment was very helpful to me and I take that out with me.

(video)
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119507

I was watching an episode of the Closer just recently and the detectives knocked at the door and it was answered by a very attractive woman, but I suspected even from the very first moment that this was in fact a man, but I was not sure until a little later in the story.

If I was not a CD then I would not have thought twice about her and would have accepted that it was a woman, but I am always somehow always on the lookout.

None of this post is intended to be confrontational and is written with good intentions and from the heart and thought it was worth adding and to encourage those who say they don't pass.

With love Sophie.

[Ruth]

The idea of being passable is important to us CDers because when we dress, we are creating in our own way a feminine image.
Closet CDers who only show their work to the mirror may wonder if they can be objective enough in their judgement. Those of us who go out on the street are putting the illusion to the ultimate test - if we pass, we are the same as a woman. Unfortunately, we don't necessarily know whether we are passing or not, which is I think the foundation for this whole debate.
If you get finger pointing and derisive voices calling you a tranny, you know where you are, but I honestly believe that very often we get read and people say nothing, do nothing. Either they are too polite or they just couldn't give a XXXX about a guy in a dress.
So the debate goes on...

[kellycan27]

When someone asks the passing question I generally take them to mean.. Can I go out in public and not be read? There are many schools of thought in regards to passing. Looks, attitude, the way in which you carry yourself, self confidence. Passing to some means blending in without being noticed,just another face in the crowd. If this works for you...EXCELLENT!
Now, back to the passing question. Does the OP want to "blend" or truly pass public scrutiny up close and personal? As I mentioned earlier, I tend to take the question as being the latter. I often get myself in hot water because while I do agree that attitude and self confidence are wonderful and helpful I have the opinion that all of the attitude and self confidence in the world are not going to be enough for Joe the linebacker to pass as a woman. When I add... face it, there are a lot of people that just aren't going to be able to pull it off.. the poo poo really hits the fan.... Easy for you to say.. you pass!
I am accused of being an aloof,elitist,snob, and not being the supporting person that I should be. The truth of the matter is that I want people to be happy, and i want them to be comfortable with themselves. What I don't want to do is give someone who believes that passing to be important (to them) any kind of false hope. I don't wish to see anyone venture out and have what might end up as a traumatic experience because I was was being more PC than honest. I see my approach to passing as more common sense that elitism, but I suppose it's open to interpretation. If I had my way everyone would be able to pass as they saw fit, but the truth of the matter is that in here we can "be all" but in the real real world someone is going to end up holding the S***y end of the stick. :2c:


Kelly

[DinaMature]

Thanks, Doc. I am sure you spell out a lot of truth.

I think we're all lucky to live in the 'modern times' that we do. At least in the Western world, even small town folks realize that "we" walk among the populace.

For myself to pass would be a pipe dream. Do I expect acceptance? Absolutely.

Chance encounters with dim witted knotheads are a risk but less and less every day. Within significant urban areas, during daylight hours, my expectation would be to go about my activities with no problem at all.

[msginaadoll]

Thanks Sherry so much for your post. It got right to the point that I was trying to make but saying the wrong and long ways. Most of us in this forum are cds, we will never go further in transitioning or the use of hormones, surgery etc. Our ability to pass as females is reasonably limited such. We are also limited in some ways by our body structure, weight, hight, etc. I do believe we need to encourage each other and be suportive with each other but there is also a reality there to consider. I do believe that the questioning about passing may mean to some yes we think you are attractive, cute, etc. Or that you are applauded for the time u take on your appearance. But we also need to be sure that people understand that. And as was said you cant go out there blind in the world and expect everyone to see you as a woman. The reality may be most of us will be ignored, and hopefully treated well by the majority of peopl while we are out. The reality may also be that we are laughed at at times behind our backs or even to our faces, pointed out etc. I think that all of us need to be aware of it and let our newbies out there in on it too. I am so appreciate for the folks who have encouraged me to get out and about, and my goal will be to encourage others. Its a Cruel Crazy, Beautiful World out there in the words of Johnny Clegg and it sure is fun to explore!

[dilane]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that women's femurs have this ability to rotate at the top socket in certain directions that men can't do, at least naturally....thus those sexy stances. This is one of those things that God gave women the ability to do in order to get that little head through the cervix during childbirth. IMHO, that's what makes a woman a woman.
The rest is superficial and cosmetic.

Ok, Nathalie, I'm going to forget about the dieting, the dancing lessons, hair, clothes and makeup, the walk and the voice; I'm gonna concentrate on hip exercises :)

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Now as you say, the voice DOES tell a tale. That said this is one area as CD's , we just let ourselves down.Because female voice an mannerisms are attainable, and there's many how to's on the net, all of which say practice makes perfect.We could pass on voice, but for 99% of us, we choose not to.

This sort of statement leads a little bit, though not all the way, down the road of a big part of what bugs me with passing. You're talking specifically about voices here, but I've seen similar comments about breast and hip forms, or makeup styles, or wigs, and such that basically say "well, you could pass but you just don't work hard enough." (NOTE: I know that isn't what Amanda is really saying here, I'm just using her statement as a jumping off point.)

The reason it bothers me is, yes maybe we choose not to, because I don't see why I should *have* to. I don't see why I should have to spend a bunch of time learning how to change my voice and adopt mannerisms that don't come naturally to me. I wear women's clothes because I like them and find them comfortable and I resent the attitude that I should have to do things I don't find comfortable in order to wear them.

Now, if someone *wants* to pass, and that's their motivation for dressing, then that's fantastic for them and I support them all the way. But there's a mentality amongst some that feels the need to tell other crossdressers that they're "doing it wrong" if the goal isn't to avoid being read and be convincingly "passable."

I hate the way "passing" gets such emphasis in the community. It's basically the tgirl version of "skinny" being pushed onto teenage girls, who then feel like they have to push themselves into this narrow, unrealistic vision of what a "beautiful woman" is based on what they see from models and actresses.

[kellycan27]

This sort of statement leads a little bit, though not all the way, down the road of a big part of what bugs me with passing. You're talking specifically about voices here, but I've seen similar comments about breast and hip forms, or makeup styles, or wigs, and such that basically say "well, you could pass but you just don't work hard enough." (NOTE: I know that isn't what Amanda is really saying here, I'm just using her statement as a jumping off point.)

The reason it bothers me is, yes maybe we choose not to, because I don't see why I should *have* to. I don't see why I should have to spend a bunch of time learning how to change my voice and adopt mannerisms that don't come naturally to me. I wear women's clothes because I like them and find them comfortable and I resent the attitude that I should have to do things I don't find comfortable in order to wear them.

Now, if someone *wants* to pass, and that's their motivation for dressing, then that's fantastic for them and I support them all the way. But there's a mentality amongst some that feels the need to tell other crossdressers that they're "doing it wrong" if the goal isn't to avoid being read and be convincingly "passable."

I hate the way "passing" gets such emphasis in the community. It's basically the tgirl version of "skinny" being pushed onto teenage girls, who then feel like they have to push themselves into this narrow, unrealistic vision of what a "beautiful woman" is based on what they see from models and actresses.


Why do you have to drag t girls into the picture,plenty of cross dressers would like to pass and give advice.:heehee:

[Satrana]

It's basically the tgirl version of "skinny" being pushed onto teenage girls, who then feel like they have to push themselves into this narrow, unrealistic vision of what a "beautiful woman" is based on what they see from models and actresses.

I agree. I really wish people would move on from the unrealistic ideal of passing and just learn to be themselves. There is no right or wrong way to speak or move so just be yourself and be happy and confident. Chasing idealism can become an unhealthy compulsion and you will never reach the level of perfection that will satisfy yourself.

Just seems a pointless exercise to me. Instead of enjoying your self-expression you are instead focused on a project to create the perfect imitation. Why not accept your transgenderism for what it is?

[BeckiB]

I have to agree with Doc on this. I have been to several SCC's and usually get down there on the first sunday or monday. When I arrive I am very much in boy mode as that is who I am most of the time. I come to visit with friends and have fun as I do to dress so many times I do not dress until wed or thurs. I have gone to the mall and sat and watched. We are easy to pick out of a crowd for the most part and we are noticed. Most people give us a glance or two, maybe give a nudge to who ever they are with but would never walk up and say anything. Just because you don't hear anything doesn't mean you went un noticed or that you passed.

All the confidence in the world will not help you pass. It gives you the ability to not care. I know I will not pass..ever, but I really don't care. I am who I am and it doesn't bother me that there may be some that don't accept that. That doesn't mean I don't try to look my best when I go out. I always try to dress to blend, not so much to try and pass as to not give us a bad name or feed into any misconstrued myth. Nothing worse than seeing a cder in the mall in a vinyl maids outfit and 6" heels (yes I have really seen this).

Most people do notice us but just don't care. When I am read I want people to think "wow..that is a crossdresser" and have it meant in a positive way.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Why do you have to drag t girls into the picture,plenty of cross dressers would like to pass and give advice.:heehee:

Sorry, this is probably just a matter of various websites and their differently accepted slang terms. On some other sites I've been on "Tgirl" doesn't mean specifically TS's, it's just a "cute" shorthand term term that some prefer to "crossdresser," "transgender" or "transvestite." I didn't mean to single out any one group.

[drushin703]

from the very beginning, trying moms satin front girdle when I was thirteen,
passing has never crossed my mind.but I always try as hard as I can to be
pretty, smell pretty, walk ladylike, be polite, have pantyhose on, wear a
dress, have my makeup done, laugh out loud, and always be focused on
my behaviour.I went to a regular bar last saturday that has a mostly
young, black clientel.one out of every three girls there was fat or rude
with circus like outfits on...it was horrible.But when I go to the local
cd club (ime in detroit) everyone is polite and friendly and all the cds
are dressed to the nines.....whats going on............dana.

[Lainie]

Well, I did get invited to post a still photograph in the flickr "Females with Cameras" group
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12310574@N05/4060826911/
but in person there is no way I will ever pass. Even if I transitioned, who would perform surgery to spread my eyes & hips and narrow my shoulders? Inconceivable.

But handlebar, skirt & heels wandering the mall or browsing in galleries or sitting in restaurants? I always get treated like a paying customer; i.e., with polite enthusiasm. Well, once or twice I've been turned away from ladies dressing rooms in stores, but even that is rare.

Apparently a lot of the world is perfectly happy to deal with an eccentric stranger. Am I ready to sort my friends into those who do and don't tolerate gender confusion? Not so sure...

[docrobbysherry]

I've NEVER understood folks here when they say they feel more COMFORTABLE in ladies things. As u did. I find ladies things to be;
tite, usually pretty warm, restricting, titillating, stimulating, erotic, and arousing. Which r all reasons I DO wear ladies gear! :D But, NEVER for comfort! Nothing beats my drab, loose undies, jeans, open shirt, and loafers for that! :)


I wear women's clothes because I like them and find them comfortable and I resent the attitude that I should have to do things I don't find comfortable in order to wear them.

I hate the way "passing" gets such emphasis in the community. It's basically the tgirl version of "skinny" being pushed onto teenage girls, who then feel like they have to push themselves into this narrow, unrealistic vision of what a "beautiful woman" is based on what they see from models and actresses.

Other than that, I quite agree with what you're saying! That passing requires a great deal of compromise in our dressing look! To PASS, most feel they must dress to BLEND! Maybe NOT at all how they would LIKE to present if they could dress ANY WAY they wanted to when they went out! If they could, without getting arrested, assaulted, or insulted!:Angry3:

And u and I have something in common in our dressing! In that neither of us cares to PASS, or compromise! U wear only a skirt, and go out that way! :thumbsup:

I dress like a drag queen. But, I CAN'T go out dressed that way! Because I WON'T PASS!:sad:

It's NOT fair, but few things in life r!:brolleyes:

[Rhonda Jean]

As with everything within the cd, tg, ts, etc. world, this thing can be sliced a lot of ways. The only thing that seems to provide commanality is that we all choose to express some aspect of our personalities through wearing women's clothes.

For some, (although I don't undertand it, so I'm speculating here) it appears that the desired expression is that of an eccentric, and women's clothes are the vehicle that provides that outlet. For some others, because our basic physical characteristics are not chosen, passing is out of the question, yet the desire to appear feminine is as great as anyones. I can relate to this because outside of my fem self I've often wished for a more masculine body, face, size, etc.. There's just nothing I could do about it. For my fem personna that's great. Other parts of my life, not so much. Gym class was not much fun for me. I would have never thought that any of those really masculine guys would've been envious of little girly me!

For me, the whole passing thing comes down to who I want to see in the mirror, and how thoroughly that expresses who I am, or want to be. Passing, as far as it is attainable, is important to me. I do not want to be seen as eccentric, although some of that is inevitable, given the circumstances. I care very much about what other people think of me. I'm well aware of my shortcomings, but I try my damnedest to present myself as a woman that I find attractive. That's a tall order, and unachievable on many levels. But on many levels it is achievable. It's a lot of damn work. It's a lot of work for a real woman to pull this off,and I'm starting off from behind the 8 ball. Still that's what I choose to do. It's where I choose to expend a lot of energy, time, and money. As much as it's about the clothes, it's more that just clothes. To me, there's a particular way that I, as the woman I want to be at these times, conducts herself. The way she realtes to people. Her mannerisms. It's a full feminine expression that I try so hard to achieve. Simply pulling on a skirt just doesn't do it for me.

It's a hell of a balancing act to retain enough masculinity to be able to interact publicly as a male, yet still be able to at times be able to interact publicly in such a feminine way as to make that, too, a satisfying experience. It's a wavy line that changes with what's going on im my life at the time. There's just no way that I can be satisfied with both sides at the same time. Right now I'm trying to find that exact point where I'm masculine enough to be comfortable dating a woman, yet feminine enough to (temporarily) become one.

[tricia_uktv]

Glad the t-girl thing was sorted quickly cos that's what I am.

I am getting better and better and passing but I can't fool all the people all of the time and never think I will be able to even if I go full time (but remember I'm a t-girl for now).

But I don't care about passing. Its not about that its about being myself. Whisper it, but sometimes I love the comments and dress provocatively to attract them.

What I am doing is having more fun and enjoyment then I ever believed possible. The waves of contentment that come through me when I am out and about, knowing that after all these years I'm showing true self, my inner self are fantastic. The pride and steel within me has to be seen to be believed.

But I'm for real!

Life's fun out there, live it and don't worry about others.

Think I'd best lurk now

[DinaMature]

i think it does nothing but make people insecure about how they look and also pushes the notion that crossdressers are trying to trick people.

***** instead, just do your best to be the best looking, most confident crossdresser you can be.

I'm saying, instead of stressing yourself out by making passing convincingly the goal, find out the look that actually is best for your body type, do the makeup that actually accentuates your natural features rather than trying to hide them by disguising yourself.

The more of us that go out and confidently show ourselves to be crossdressers, the more publicly accepted we'll be because people will see is in a much more positive light.

well said!!

[DinaMature]

God I hate that P word.

yeah yeah we know

[kellycan27]

I agree. I really wish people would move on from the unrealistic ideal of passing and just learn to be themselves. There is no right or wrong way to speak or move so just be yourself and be happy and confident. Chasing idealism can become an unhealthy compulsion and you will never reach the level of perfection that will satisfy yourself.

Just seems a pointless exercise to me. Instead of enjoying your self-expression you are instead focused on a project to create the perfect imitation. Why not accept your transgenderism for what it is?

Passing for me is not about achieving a super model look, it's about just being able to go about my daily life without being a curiosity? Do I care what other people think? NO. Do I care if people know that I am a TS? No. Would it be nice to just be able be regarded as just another person? Yes.

[TNRobin]

DocRobbieSherry, the passable one was me, right?!

Just kidding, I know that I'm not passable. I enjoy the thrill of dressing up and make-up for many of the same reasons that you do. But like you said, comfort means loose jeans and a t-shirt. I'm likely passable at a distance, but if you don't figure it out when you get close you will as soon as I open my mouth. I don't have female mannerisms, though to some extent I'm working on that. I definitely don't have a passable voice and don't care. At one point I did try, but I sounded a lot more like Minnie Mouse than a woman.

I'm new to dressing in public and because of where and I live and the circles that I run in I do not dress where I live, but at places like SCC it's just too much fun to ever pass up. I can hardly wait until next year; I already have my gown for the formal night.:daydreaming:

[Lacy PJs]

I thought this thread was going in a different direction but it hasn't. So I'll move that way a little. It has always bothered me with the responses to the "Hot or Not" threads. I mean... as the original poster said, very few REALLY pass but the comments in those threads suggest otherwise.

Lacy PJs

[Sally24]

I've NEVER understood folks here when they say they feel more COMFORTABLE in ladies things. As u did. I find ladies things to be;
tite, usually pretty warm, restricting, titillating, stimulating, erotic, and arousing.
Comfortable has several meanings for people here but both apply to me. When I'm not dressing for the clubs with corset and revealing clothing I do find them quite comfortable. The materials and the fit can be amazing compared to the poor male clothing I usually wear!

And yes, many that people consider CD's also go by the T-girl lable. I tend to use it more for girls who go out and about but that's just me. I like it because it's a friendly sounding name and carries positive conotations.

[Raine]

I thought this thread was going in a different direction but it hasn't. So I'll move that way a little. It has always bothered me with the responses to the "Hot or Not" threads. I mean... as the original poster said, very few REALLY pass but the comments in those threads suggest otherwise.

Lacy PJs

Other crossdressing communities I go to have a vulgar cutthroat tone to them. Only about 1 in 20 of those that have the courage to post are actually considered by the userbase to pass. Passing in these communities is defined as being completely indistinguishable from a genetic girl. Very few of those that pass are considered hot.

On the other hand, this community's tone is more of love. It doesn't matter who one is or where they're from, one can be accepted here. As a result, everyone here can forget about the details, just have fun, and share the love.

I don't believe either of these are inherently good or bad, as each serve their own purpose.

[docrobbysherry]

I thought this thread was going in a different direction but it hasn't. So I'll move that way a little. It has always bothered me with the responses to the "Hot or Not" threads. I mean... as the original poster said, very few REALLY pass but the comments in those threads suggest otherwise.
Lacy PJs

I was referring to PASSING out in public, NOT in pictures! That's like apples and oranges! I have posted pictures in which I look pretty fem! Sometimes that's the flattering one I selected out of a hundred I took, tho! :D
And many others here have terrific pics, too! But, in REAL LIFE, I can't even come close to passing!:sad:

Unless it's driving by, in the middle of the nite, at the North Pole!:brolleyes: