Third Gender

[Byllie]

I don't know if this discussion has come up before, but I'm starting to get the feeling that gender is a tapestry, and that I'm what if sometimes called the "third gender". There are various names associated with this concept, depending on the culture. Native Americans called it two-spirited.

However, I also see it tied to the concept third sex, and homosexuality. What I'd like to find are resources that discuss only the gender aspect given that my sexual orientation is strongly heterosexual.

Any and all help, or discussion, would be appreciated.

Toodles!
Byllie/Bill

[az_azeel]

Given that you say your totally hetrosexual.. most cases reffering to to the third gender refer to neither man or woman.. you might want to have read through this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender) for more info... hope this helps..

[sherri]

The concept of a third gender has been around a long time. You shouldn't have any trouble finding tons of info. What may prove more difficult, however, is finding discussions that do not encompass sexuality since the two are usually considered by academia, medical professions, etc to be intertwined. That is not to say that "third gender" TGs are always assumed to be homosexual; to the contrary, there is widespread awareness that the majority of mtf crossdressers aer heterosexual.

So just skip over the gay stuff. :D

[Byllie]

Byllie, you might want to try looking into this article, I found it very helpful and informative, but remember each article you read and or discussion you come across is not to end all of answers. Be open, be critical, be yourself.
An interesting article by Dr. Bushong, but even though he initially makes the case that there are thousands of possible gender configurations, when he talks about CD vs. TG vs. TS, he states that they are all have the same root, and are merely different manifestations of an individual attempting to match one's Gender Identity with one's Physical sex. This is that old argument that CDs are merely TSs who choose not to go all the way.

I find this to be false. I do not see all CDs as TSs in sheep's clothing. Rather, I see many if not most CDs gravitating to their true gender, which is neither male nor female.

Thoughts?


So just skip over the gay stuff. :D
I agree. I too believe that this just muddies the gender issue.

[Wen4cd]

Byllie, to save myself the typing, you might want to look at this (http://books.google.com/books?id=-_Cwin_YbHoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+invisible+partners#v=onepage&q=&f=false). The first chapter is readable online, and that's the one you want. It describes the 'third gender' in terms of Original Man, and tries to explain how psychological androgyny is the natural state of an integrated, individuated person.

Also, the book is cheap on amazon if you have an account. I think mine was like $4. It's a great overview and application of Jung on gender, and a good read as well. I find it pretty indispensable.

[sissystephanie]

I find this to be false. I do not see all CDs as TSs in sheep's clothing. Rather, I see many if not most CDs gravitating to their true gender, which is neither male nor female.

Thoughts?

Byllie, I guess I am really one of the oddball CD's. As my Tag line says, "lady on the outside, but man underneath!" I dress just for the fun of it, with no thoughts of ever becoming a woman or even living like one! I dress when I feel like it, and I dress to please only myself now that my wife has passed on. When she was alive I did often dress to please her, because she loved Stephanie just as much as she love my male persona! She knew of Stephanie before we married, and loved her for the entire almost 50 years of our marriage. I would never consider my a third gender!! I am a MAN who happens to like to wear feminine clothing!

[Byllie]

Byllie, to save myself the typing, you might want to look at this (http://books.google.com/books?id=-_Cwin_YbHoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+invisible+partners#v=onepage&q=&f=false). The first chapter is readable online, and that's the one you want. It describes the 'third gender' in terms of Original Man, and tries to explain how psychological androgyny is the natural state of an integrated, individuated person.

Also, the book is cheap on amazon if you have an account. I think mine was like $4. It's a great overview and application of Jung on gender, and a good read as well. I find it pretty indispensable.
This looks very intriguing. I did an ILL for the book through my school. Thanks!


I would never consider my a third gender!! I am a MAN who happens to like to wear feminine clothing!
And I would never ask you or anyone else to call themselves third gender. I was not implying that all CD are third gender; I was only referring to myself.

[sherri]

And I would never ask you or anyone else to call themselves third gender. I was not implying that all CD are third gender; I was only referring to myself.I very much think of myself in those terms, or something close to it. Have for a long time.

[Byllie]

I very much think of myself in those terms, or something close to it. Have for a long time.
Interesting. In what way do you see yourself as "third gender"? Behaviors? Mannerisms? Emotions? Dress? (duh)

[sherri]

Interesting. In what way do you see yourself as "third gender"? Behaviors? Mannerisms? Emotions? Dress? (duh)Hmm, well, let's see if I can answer this succinctly (which is totally out of character for me :)). Certainly not third gender in dress as I obviously lean to a pretty thorough (if unconvincing) GG imitation in that regard. In a nutshell, I guess I would reference a contentment with male anatomy and [bi]sexuality paired with an evolving, even prevalent, set of feminine sensibilities, values, emotions and behavior compared to traditional social mores and stereotypes. That's a wordy way of saying I don't suffer from some sense of being a woman trapped in a man's body, but neither am I a typical male. As I recently told a friend who doesn't know about Sherri, even though I don't act particularly swishy, I am much more feminine than your average guy -- a fact that she was already aware of, as it turns out -- and I very much like that about myself, but I don't agonize over being born a guy, nor do I particularly mind it even at this stage of the game. Although I don't get to do it as much as I'd like, a feminized presentation would be my first preference nearly all the time, but not only do I not mind being recognized as a girly guy, I actually prefer it that way. My only sources of frustration are A) the constraints imposed by social stigma upon my feminine expression and relationship building; and, B) that I'm not as pretty as I'd like to be.

**********

Btw, re previous posts, I don't consider the inclusion of homosexuality or bisexuality to be beside the point in examining TG behavior. CD sexuality is what it is. The consensus (and this forum's membership appears to confirm this) is that the majority of CDers are heterosexual. But that doesn't remotely mean that same-sex isn't a significant factor; to the contrary, there's no denying that for a considerable number of self-procalimed heterosexual CDers, this variant of gender identity eventually leads to some curiosity about and/or exploration of same-sex dynamics. It happens too often to be dismissed out of hand. And of course there is the inconvenient (for some) fact that a sizable percentage of us are in fact gay or bi, and within the TG community, we really don't like being swept under the rug. As far as we're concerned, it's a level playing field.

That said, if none of that gay/bi stuff applies to you, there's nothing wrong with skipping over it wherever it shows up in your research. Or maybe you could just narrow your search along the lines of "heterosexual crossdressing written by heterosexual crossdressers for heterosexual crossdressers". Nothing wrong with that either.

[Byllie]

Btw, re previous posts, I don't consider the inclusion of homosexuality or bisexuality to be beside the point in examining TG behavior.
Nor do I, but I do find that writing about "third gender" often automatically assumes that to be 3G means you're also gay. As you stated, this is most often not the case. But, you do touch on an issue I have *issues* with, that gender and sexual orientation are so tightly bound together. IMHO they are not. The problem, as I see it, with TS's is when their physical sex does not match their mental sex and they have gender dysphoria. That's because they *do* see themselves as being female trapped in a male body. On the other hand, being 3G speaks more to one's emotional and spiritual state rather than one's genitalia and what one does with them.

Hope this ramble made sense.
Byllie/Bill

[sherri]

Nor do I, but I do find that writing about "third gender" often automatically assumes that to be 3G means you're also gay. As you stated, this is most often not the case. We may be creating some confusion using the terms crossdressing and third gender interchangeably.


But, you do touch on an issue I have *issues* with, that gender and sexual orientation are so tightly bound together. IMHO they are not ... On the other hand, being 3G speaks more to one's emotional and spiritual state rather than one's genitalia and what one does with them.

Hope this ramble made sense.
Byllie/BillI have not and would not dispute your take on this matter, but from my perspective, I must confess I have never been able to get my head around it, and here's why: to the best of my knowledge, we are all (well, almost all) sexual as well as social creatures. That's a characteristic of human nature regardless of one's gender identity. Sexuality may not be at the forefront in some aspects of life, but usually it is, at a minimum, simmering in the background. We don't look around us at all the guys in the world and say to ourselves, his sexuality has nothing to do with who he is, nor would we give any credence to the notion that we can examine what it means to be a male human without taking into account his sexuality. Ditto for GGs. So it doesn't make any sense to me to deny that sexuality must be a part of what it means to be TG.

Having said that, however, I will grant you that the inclusion of sexuality is not necessary or even germane for every subject having to do with the human condition in general or gender identity in particular. It may (as I contend) be simmering on the back burner in nearly any given consideration, or it may not, but regardless, it isn't necessarily relevant or productive for the subject at hand. It's inclusion may in fact cloud the water, as you say.

For example, you might wish to discuss the impact of gender bending on one's spiritual well-being (or lack thereof) without bringing sex into it and I'm fine with having that conversation with you on your terms. Even though I'm thinking to myself that sex does in fact come into play, it's mention may not be essential for getting to the heart of whatever it is you have on your mind.

That's about as close as I can come to grasping what you're saying.

[Byllie]

That's about as close as I can come to grasping what you're saying.
Which is pretty good if I say so myself.

A few questions. Just because you're born male, does that mean you're straight? Dumb question; of course not. Same goes for being born female. Next question.

If you are a TS, does that mean you'll start wanting sex with guys? Again, not automatically. Many TS's are lesbians, attracted to women.

So, the concept that sexual preference must match gender is just bunk. The two have, of course, been historically linked, but they are, in fact, separate from each other.

Except for true androgyny, the rest of us are either physically male or physically female. Sexual preference, on the other hand, is more of a continuum, with most folks sitting at the far ends. Gender, or rather mental sex, is also a continuum, relating more to how we see ourselves.

That said, it's often hard to tease gender away from the other two because when we see someone we see the whole package. And which of the three scales is impacting a person's behavior at any given moment is a bear to figure out.

And that's why I started this conversation; to learn more of how to do just that!

Byllie/Bill

[sheidelmeidel]

Non-believer in 3rd gender. It's just a variation of the traditional 2 gender model. Think black-white-grey.
:2c:

[sherri]

Non-believer in 3rd gender. It's just a variation of the traditional 2 gender model. Think black-white-grey.
:2c:Yes, but it's that grey that defies conventional b&W categorization or characterization, thus the concept of "third". What's more, there is strong evidence to suggest that there are even more gender variations than three. There is a point, however, past which splitting hairs makes it difficult to carry on a conversation about gender without bogging down. The germane point in this thread is, I think, that the sense of third gender probably isn't all that relevant for someone for whom CDing is more recreation than identity. Nothing wrong with that, but you'd probably have to experience a rather profound sense of gender shift before the concept would become real to you.


That said, it's often hard to tease gender away from the other two because when we see someone we see the whole package. And which of the three scales is impacting a person's behavior at any given moment is a bear to figure out.

And that's why I started this conversation; to learn more of how to do just that!

Byllie/BillI am at a loss as to the need for such a dichotomy (or is it trichotomy?), or how useful would be any conclusions derived from the effort. I mean, that would seem like an artificial construct to me. I think it's rather inseparable, one aspect informing and influencing the others etc. To put it another way, it's more of an omelet on the half-shell than yolk-white-shell. :)

But me thinks there's something nagging you that you're not sharing. What is it you really seek to know?

[Celia]

I often think of myself these days as being gender queer. But that doesn't mean that "gender queer" is the other cola; it can mean a lot of things. One problem with the idea of the third gender is that is it isn't something stated in positive terms but is instead thought of as a catch all for gender that doesn't fit within the positively stated categories of masculinity and femininity: if I assert that I'm third gender, the best someone might conclude is that I'm neither of the above, so to speak - a little hard to picture. Maybe it's best to just say it: that masculine and feminine categories are neither mutually exclusive nor exhaustive and that I (for one) simply don't fit into those canned, fun-size pigeonholes.;)

[Karren H]

I vote for just 2.... it's such a nice even number.... and there are so many historical sayings that would be messed up totally.... "Takes two to tango" "Three's a crowd"??

[sherri52]

Don't know if I am third gender but I am definitely two spirited:love:

[Kate Simmons]

It's all about balancing the energies my friend. Once we are able to do that, we can be either, both or neither as needed, physicality notwithstanding.:)

[sherri]

Maybe it's best to just say it: that masculine and feminine categories are neither mutually exclusive nor exhaustive and that I (for one) simply don't fit into those canned, fun-size pigeonholes.;)Well I can certainly converse with you on those terms, but only if you can think of a word or succinct phrase to use ("Just me" is not acceptable, sorry). I refuse to type all that out every time I reference my gender identity. :D

BTW, I'm not aware of any negative connotations associated with the term or concept of third gender, at least within TG-friendly circles, but if there is, I ain't buyin' it. Just call me Ms. Teflon. :D As for it being a catch-all word, when you start talking about gender variance I don't think any terms hold up neatly under close scrutiny. If you don't believe me, just trot out the matter of nomenclature in the transmasculine forum sometime and let me know what you come back with. :D

[Wen4cd]

Non-believer in 3rd gender. It's just a variation of the traditional 2 gender model. Think black-white-grey.
:2c:

I prefer to think more like black-white-pattern of vivid contrasting stripes.:D

[theresa]

OMG. Im just adjusting to dealing with two genders. Now I hear there are three!

[sherri]

How about this for an analogy: a whole that is greater than its parts.

[Sandra Dunn]

In my research I have found that the Thrid Gender concept has been around as long as man has been, rather human beings. I started with the Bible, yes the Bible. I found some interesting people described in it called Eunuchs. They are not what Western Methology descirbes them to be. By cross refernecing the Eunuchs of Roman times I found them to be married and with children. Cross referencing them in Egyptian times showed more. The Egyptians actually refered to a Third Gender class of people. Research the Jewish books and I found an interesting fact. There are three genders and I am a firm believer and I can produce the facts to support this that the Third Gender makes up about 30% of the population if not a few more.

HUGS Sandra