Crossdressers? I think not.

[girlalex]

I've been reading several posts here and they are all very interesting from which others can learn a lot about themselves. In fact I love the Male To Female CrossDressers Forum because i can relate to it since Im a cross dresser my self. but i begun to wonder am i really a cd? or are we all really cds. I may be incorrect but to my knowledge a male cross dresser is a straight male who occasionally enjoys wearing female clothing to satisfy his feminine side, but from what i've been reading it really seems as if we are much much more than just cross dressers. It looks like for many of us including myself cding is not only about satisfying our feminine side but keeping it up and doing it more and more often trying to do more things en femme. going out and attempting to pass or trying to get rid of facial or body hair or even think of ways to increase that cup size. i mean many of us are constantly trying to just push it and push it and it becomes and opposition. we become to fall in love with our feminine side and we respect it and embrace it more than anything else in fact many of us don't like our male features. We only care and love our feminine traits, mental and physical. So after considering all this i don't think we are just cross dressers but transgendered and still keep pushing that envelope.

thoughts? comments?

[Samantha Girl]

I personally don't like the CD label. I prefer Transvestite, but it seems like a lot of people think it has a negative connotation. For me it's more accurate, but that's probably not true of most of us ;)

I agree that a lot of girls on here are more than just cross dressers. I'll leave it to you gals to figure it out amongst yourselves :p

[sterling12]

Ok, so your Transgendered. Are you happy now?

The more we try and put these labels on behaviors, and try to apply generalities to individuals, the less it works. Suffice it to say that we are all somewhere on That Spectrum of "Transgenderedness." Tomorrow, You or I could be somewhere else along The Spectrum.

Maybe it's for The Best, if we just accept that our very existence as humans can be very fluid. If we stayed the same, life would get ultra-dull.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Shikyo]

The more we try and put these labels on behaviors, and try to apply generalities to individuals, the less it works. Suffice it to say that we are all somewhere on That Spectrum of "Transgenderedness." Tomorrow, You or I could be somewhere else along The Spectrum.

This is the way it should go. Labels aren't truly needed as each of us is unique. We have different needs and wishes about the way we are. The general labels have only one use to give a general direction how you are but they can never be used to specifically to tell how someone is. Plus I'm rather sure that many people look at the labels different and include different things into than someone else. I really wouldn't worry so much about the labels as there are so many more things to worry about than a simple label that you probably won't use that much anyway.

[Josey]

I'm in Sterling 12's court on this one! Her reponse best describes my feelings on the subject.

[Aaron Zwidling]

I agree with Sterling12 as well. I 'label' myself as a straight crossdresser, which to me means I am attracted exclusively to women and like to wear their clothes. Beyond that does it really matter that I like to wear bras and dresses but don't often wear mascara or lipstick, while someone else on the board will wear full makeup but never wear a bra? I personally don't need a label to handle that concept. Should the differences between me and another crossdresser ever become a topic, a description of likes and dislikes serves me much better than a label.

One more rant I have to get out of my system. For those people who keep trying to define transvestite and crossdresser as two different things, they are the same thing people. They both literally translate into 'wearing the clothes of the opposite sex'. I don't care how many pseudo scientific arguments people toss around, to me they always will mean the same thing and I will always use them interchangably. If people like one word more than the other more power to you, but it doesn't alter my reality.

[Jeanna]

Ah you've opened uo that can 'o' worms did ya? This coulc be a very important discussion, but most will be on the defensive worried about being labeled wrong. You're question makes sense." Where is that line between cross dresser and transgendered? "But don't you already know? I know that you know.Now accept it.
Jeanna

[Samantha Girl]

Just to be clear, I don't care for labels either. I just happen to like the word transvestite, sounds subversive, I like subversive things for some reason :p

[sissystephanie]

LABELS ARE FOR THINGS, NOT HUMAN BEINGS!! We are all Human Beings, and thus should not be labeled.

But just so you all know the differences, I will once again give you the definitions, in order from strongest to the least. These LABELS are those most generally used by professionals, who apparently have nothing better to do. I have accumulated them over the 7 decades I have been dressing.

TRANSSEXUAL: A person who strongly feels they are the opposite of their birth sex in every way. Wants to not only dress in the opposite clothing, but would like to surgically change their body!

TRANSGENDER: A person who wants to look, feel, and act like a member of the opposite sex in every way possible without having surgery.

TRANSVESTITE: A person, usually male, who dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex mainly for the purpose of having sex with people of his/her own sex.

CROSSDRESSER: A person, of either sex, who prefers to wear the clothing of the opposite sex just for the fun of it. I.E.; likes the fit, feel, and look of feminine garments.

I consider myself to be a CROSSDRESSER! I have no desire to be a woman, I don't even care to look like one. I just like to wear their clothing!!

But, as I said at the very beginning of this post, I am a HUMAN BEING, so DON'T LABEL ME!!!

[Sarasometimes]

Sara is somewhere on the gender continuum at any one time. This forum is called the Crossdressers Forum but fortunately it includes a wide range of people with a closely associated frame of mind. We have transitioned T-girls and ones who only like certain items to wear. A melting pot of ideas. How nice!

[LaurenB]

I consider myself to be "wide-gendered". The prefixes "trans" and "cross" are too binary for me. I'm not an either/or person. Sort of like being an independent politically (which I also am) as an analogy. There are things about both genders that I like and dislike. I also don't care for "-vestite" or "-dresser" - both imply just outward appearance. When I cook or do creative or caring tasks I am in the feminine mode. When I hunt or compete or perform highly analytical tasks I am in male mode. I feel blessed to be able to easily shift between worlds.

Like it or not, how you define yourself matters. Humans can only relate if things (including people) are sorted into bins.

[Samantha Girl]

Hmmm, no wonder transvestite sounds so subversive to me! Thanks Stephanie! :D

Using Stephanie's definitions I'm somewhere between transvestite and transgender and crossdresser I guess. I am a complicated individual :p

Words are quite fascinating to me! :)

Again, I don't like labels either. As illustrated above, there's never quite a word that really "fits" me anyway! :devil:

[Sarasometimes]

I consider myself to be "wide-gendered". The prefixes "trans" and "cross" are too binary for me. I'm not an either/or person. Sort of like being an independent politically (which I also am) as an analogy. There are things about both genders that I like and dislike. I also don't care for "-vestite" or "-dresser" - both imply just outward appearance. When I cook or do creative or caring tasks I am in the feminine mode. When I hunt or compete or perform highly analytical tasks I am in male mode. I feel blessed to be able to easily shift between worlds.

Like it or not, how you define yourself matters. Humans can only relate if things (including people) are sorted into bins.
I really like "Wide Gendered"! I go to a counsellor to better understand me and I often speak about the 2 extremes which reside in the same head. I have a rather macho, dirty, dangerous and stressful (I know stressful isn't a male domain) job which I absolutely love and then I have this similar love for the frilly, girly stuff and I'm equally as happy getting prettied and pampered or choosing which handbag goes with my outfit. So wide gendered is a term I will share with her.
The bin comment is so true! That is why we humans are prone to stereotype and label everyone and everything.
Thanks for your help with my label, I now have a bin! A wide bin at that.

[Erica2Sweet]

I personally don't like the CD label. I prefer Transvestite, but it seems like a lot of people think it has a negative connotation. For me it's more accurate, ...

The word transvestite does sound a lot like it should be the name of a rare and debilitating disease... It kinda sounds like a sneeze too, doesn't it?... :)

Anyway, we humans create labels to make communication simpler and the reality is that labels we use to help describe our quirks and uniqueness-es are here to stay. Student, teacher, friend, enemy, partner, lover, role model, samaritan, evildoer, christian, atheist, husband, wife, employer, employee, leader, subordinate... If you're going to set out to rid the world of all labels as they apply to humans, then I suppose all these have to go as well. I don't see that ever happening and for good reason.

I think the knee-jerk reaction to this would be to say, "Let's just focus on only the negative labels." But who is to decide what is negative and what is not?

[Samantha Girl]

In describing myself, I'd say transvestite fits like a glove. Though the word does sound a lot like it should be the name of a rare and debilitating disease... It kinda sounds like a sneeze too, doesn't it?... :)


he he he, too funny Erica! :heehee:

[linnea]

I'm not sure what label would fit me best, but I am enjoying what I'm doing in all modes.

[celeste26]

let us not get too far along this path before we remind ourselves that trans= across and vestite =wearing so those two terms are exactly equal in meaning.There may be a "class" distinction(maybe) but certainly not a meaning difference [crossdresser=transvestite]. It only relates to the activity of what a person wears and not the intent.

The reactions we have about labels is all in our heads anyway not in the activity.

Transgendered implies something about our gender and not about the clothes, even if the activity of a transgendered person frequently includes the clothes it is not about them at all. So a transgendered person may or may not actually cross dress.

[meri]

None of these definitions seem to fit me or my situation. In my case, my feminine side has been active all my life, but I have not been consciously aware of it. Over the past 3 years, I have become fully aware of it and accepted myself as I am.

I have interests which span both what is considered female and male territory. Interest in some of the feminine clothing is part of it, but I also like mens blazers (skirt and a blazer work well together BTW).

The more I study this issue, the more I believe that everybody has a masculine and a feminine side. People suppress one or the other depending upon their degree of consciousness.

So, that we have found our feminine side and are enjoying it should be no surprise. It's like discovering that you have suddenly inherited a million dollars, but didn't have a clue it was coming.

We are like little kids with a brand-new toy.

If we were in an accepting culture and we could walk out of the house wearing what we like with no fear, I believe we would all work through this phase much more quickly. The feminine would become integrated more quickly and the pink fog would dissipate.

Of course, if we lived in an accepting society, we would have never suppressed our feminine sides in the first place ....

Don't get too caught up in labels, they are applied as an attempt to identify and categorize things. As soon as the label is applied, the thing you are observing is suddenly limited. If you apply it to yourself, you limit yourself because you will try at some level to live up to the restraints of the label. This will simply cause to spin your tires and distract you from your real mission which is to truly understand and accept yourself for what you are....

[Nikki A.]

I don't dislike the male me, but after all these years I'm just coming to terms w/my other side. I am stretching the boundaries but thats what life is about to find what makes you happy. Each of us has their own criteria for happiness and whatever we call ourselves means nothing, whether CD, TG, Transvestite.

[Karren H]

Guess Office Depot had Label Makers on sale this week? Personally I have one of those old label makers.. And I use it to label all my tools and cabenits.. But I've never made one and actually stuck it on my self..

[TonyaV]

Guess Office Depot had Label Makers on sale this week? Personally I have one of those old label makers.. And I use it to label all my tools and cabenits.. But I've never made one and actually stuck it on my self..

Karen you're glasses are so cute! So sexy, in an intellectual way!

[suchacutie]

Can we look at the initial post and get beyond the label issue for a moment?

There was another, and I think important issue: Once started down the road to take out our feminine self and look at it, we keep pushing the envelope to more and more and more.

Is this true? Do we just go with the flow in a pink fog (or not in a pink fog) or do we actually have goals we are trying to meet? Like Meri, I seem to have had a feminine side at work in me for 55 years before my wife and I finally recognized it! For a few months I did feel like I was adrift in my goals for Tina, and that was because I didn't know enough to be able to ask the questions needed to set those goals. This forum has been a great help in gathering perspective and also a source for other sites from which to gather information.

It took a couple of years but finally it became clear what I needed from and for Tina. The exploration of my femme self had some structure and what looked like a destination.

So, are we just floating along, or do we actually have goals? Do we just push the envelope randomly, or is there a method to our madness. I think the answer to these questions might help us all along the road, regardless of the labels we put on ourselves.

just my :2c:

:)

tina

[TonyaV]

Girlalex has a point though, for the ones of us who are wondering where they stand. I know that early on in life, I have fought these feelings time and time again. But then at times, I was unable to overcome the urge. One thing I regret, is that when I had nose re-constructive surgery, I didn't request a more feminine nose. I wanted to so bad. I was even single then, 25 years ago. I truly wish I did. So my point is, if opportunities arise, we do seem to wanna push the envelop, more and more, year after year. I no longer fight off Tonya as much as used to. At least that's the case with me.

[Erica2Sweet]

...trans= across and vestite =wearing so those two terms are exactly equal in meaning.There may be a "class" distinction(maybe) but certainly not a meaning difference [crossdresser=transvestite]...

I definitely can't argue what you are saying in terms of dictionary definition.

[sandra-leigh]

let us not get too far along this path before we remind ourselves that trans= across and vestite =wearing so those two terms are exactly equal in meaning.There may be a "class" distinction(maybe) but certainly not a meaning difference [crossdresser=transvestite]. It only relates to the activity of what a person wears and not the intent.


Remember, words do not have universal meaning. The associations that a word brings up in one place may be different than the associations that a word brings up in a different place.

Here in Canada, the term "transvestite" has connotations that are heavily influenced by those in the United States. And in the United States, "transvestite" is the name of a condition in the official manual of psychiatric disorders (I forget its full name, but it goes by the abbreviation DSM), in the "fetishtic conditions" section of the manual. Thus, in the USA (and, by cultural transference, in Canada), to be a "transvestite" is to have a psychiatric disorder in which wearing clothing of the "opposite sex" is substantially necessary for sexual functioning -- and the "proof" required that one has the disorder is merely that one has worn the clothing of the opposite sex more than 3 times in one's life (yes, even if there was no sexual excitement associated with the wearing of it!) Combine this with the fact that being diagnosed with a psychiatric disorder can be grounds for termination of employment (or for refusal of employment), and termination or refusal of medical benefits, or for insurance to refuse to pay out (even for something that had nothing to do with the so-called "disorder"), and you can see why people in these parts would want a term that is not culturally defined as a sexual-related illness.


For another example of a term that means different things in different cultures or contexts, with some of the definitions having dire implications, see the various shades of meaning of define:sodomy .

[RachelZ]

I know who I am and I love what I do and that's good enough for me. Everyone else can just make up the rest for themselves.

[Erica2Sweet]

...Once started down the road to take out our feminine self and look at it, we keep pushing the envelope to more and more and more.

Is this true? Do we just go with the flow in a pink fog (or not in a pink fog) or do we actually have goals we are trying to meet?...

I think it varies from person to person depending largely on personality type.

Aside form transsexualism, this is ultimately about getting a desire met. If I find that exploring to a certain point and holding there remains fulfilling, that's what I'm most likely going to do. If at some point I no longer find fulfillment in what I'm currently doing (or how I'm expressing myself), and feel I need to explore deeper, farther, then that's probably what I'm going to do, providing nothing stands in my way.

[docrobbysherry]

I've been reading several posts here and they are all very interesting from which others can learn a lot about themselves. In fact I love the Male To Female CrossDressers Forum because i can relate to it since Im a cross dresser my self. but i begun to wonder am i really a cd? or are we all really cds. I may be incorrect but to my knowledge a male cross dresser is a straight male who occasionally enjoys wearing female clothing to satisfy his feminine side, but from what i've been reading it really seems as if we are much much more than just cross dressers. It looks like for many of us including myself cding is not only about satisfying our feminine side but keeping it up and doing it more and more often trying to do more things en femme. going out and attempting to pass or trying to get rid of facial or body hair or even think of ways to increase that cup size. i mean many of us are constantly trying to just push it and push it and it becomes and opposition. we become to fall in love with our feminine side and we respect it and embrace it more than anything else in fact many of us don't like our male features. We only care and love our feminine traits, mental and physical. So after considering all this i don't think we are just cross dressers but transgendered and still keep pushing that envelope.

thoughts? comments?

R u bragging, complaining, or just trying to stir the pot?:eek:

I'm a CROSSDRESSER. That means I wear ladies things. I do it because I find that female in the mirror to be exciting and stimulating!:D

The BETTER job I do, the MORE EXCITING she becomes! For me, it has NOTHING AT ALL, to do with a FEMALE SIDE!:brolleyes:

[Erica K.]

I know who I am and I love what I do and that's good enough for me. Everyone else can just make up the rest for themselves.

Exactly! I used to be really hung up on passing, but for who? Me? I accept myself, I liked how I looked before I left the house, yay I passed ^___^

[Melissa.A]

I agree with the label-discouraging group, trying to stuff people into proper categories is almost impossible. Maybe I like dessert, but I don't like almonds in my cookies. That doesn't make me a cookie hater, I just don't like almonds (they have the wonderful flavor of cyanide without all the messy side effects).

We all have variances (I'm sure there are gals out there who love almonds) and that is what makes us interesting. Please don't try to fit me into some precut mold because I'm sure I do not have all the characteristics of any label that anyone would want to apply to my forehead.

~M

[sissystephanie]

let us not get too far along this path before we remind ourselves that trans= across and vestite =wearing so those two terms are exactly equal in meaning.There may be a "class" distinction(maybe) but certainly not a meaning difference [crossdresser=transvestite]. It only relates to the activity of what a person wears and not the intent.

Celeste, I have to disagree with you on your use of definitions.

Transvestite is a relatively new word. It was coined by the Media to describe young men who dressed as women in order to sell themselves for sex! Technically it mean the same as Crossdresser, but since it definitely does relate to the intent of the activity, there is a vast difference. A Transvestite is certainly always a crossdresser, but a Crossdresser does not have to be a Transvestite!

I am a Crossdresser, but anyone who calls me a Transvestite to my face is going to get hurt!! I have only had sex with one person in my life and that was my late wife! I dress only because I like to, not for any other reason!

[girlalex]

Agree. interesting responses, i like them all:D. so i understand, cross dressing is just a word to explain what we do but not a word that explains who we are. cool. well thanks for all the responses:love:

[SuzanneBender]

I am transgendered. Other than that I have no idea what zipcode I live in when it comes to living in genderville.

Karren can you come over and label my cabinets for me or are they really cupboards.......:daydreaming:

[abigailf]

That label is Abigail. That's me, that is who I am (well, I am other things too, but I can't say what in mixed company).

I am a crossdresser, well, that is societies label, but I will use it as maybe Abigail is just not enough.

However, based on Stephanie's definitions, the label would be transgender.

[tricia_uktv]

I'm really not sure why everyone gets so het up about this. I am a poof, a fairy, a sissy, transgendered, tranvestite, a crossdresser, a faggot, a queer and I can go on and on.

But, I am Tricia I am she and that's all that matters :). Surely just accept whatever is said and go live your life.

[suchacutie]

To answer this question, tricia, the problem of labels is that someone...someone else...defines a term, and then someone else says, No..that's not me!

So the issue is all about one person inadvertantly defining someone else, and that someone else doesn't like it. It will never go away until we stop trying to fit into any category :)

tina

[kimmy p]

I'm just a guy who likes to "try" and look pretty. Name it what you will but I have always preferred female clothes, looks, style, colors, shapes.... I think you get the picture. Truth is I dislike most male clothing, it's boring. You know what's interesting to me??? Most of us here, that I've seen at least; look better fem that male. I think that this includes me also though I know I can't pass from closer that the next county.

[sandra-leigh]

Transvestite is a relatively new word. It was coined by the Media to describe young men who dressed as women in order to sell themselves for sex!

The Oxford English Dictionary defines the noun transvestite as "A person with an abnormal desire to wear the clothes of the opposite sex". The origin known to OED is 1910, M. Hirschfeld's "Die Transvestiten". OED's second usage example dates from 1922, and is J. Van Teslaar's translation of Stekel's Bi-sexual Love ii. 69 "Among the transvestites (personifiers) we find the most pronounced examples of marked homosexuality and stressed bi-sexuality."

To those of us who do not consider our dressing to be "abnormal", and do not fit into the model of "marked homosexuality" or "stressed bi-sexuality", "transvestite" becomes a term laden with too many overtones to be satisfactory.

e.g., compare "heathen" vs "pagan" vs "Wiccan": the more common senses of "heathen" still carry the cultural baggage of branding the person so labeled as being uncultured and uncivilized; "pagan" tends to lose the "uncivilized" (but
can imply a "lower level" of civilization); where-as "Wiccan", a particular pagan religion, has been culturally associated (around here anyhow) most strongly with middle-class white "western civilization" women who probably have a bit of spending money (to have the time and be able to afford the supplies and possible travel for more extended training.) A Wiccan is a heathen according to the definition of "heathen", but Wiccan are not typically portrayed as uncivilized, for all the faults in how they are generally portrayed.

[StarrOfDelite]

[QUOTE=sandra-leigh;1965609]Combine this with the fact that being diagnosed with a psychiatric disorder can be grounds for termination of employment (or for refusal of employment), and termination or refusal of medical benefits, or for insurance to refuse to pay out (even for something that had nothing to do with the so-called "disorder"), and you can see why people in these parts would want a term that is not culturally defined as a sexual-related illness.


I I have no idea of what the laws are like in Canada, but in most states in the US of A it is strictly illegal to deny insurance or medical benefits for any sort of illness or disability which doesn't affect workplace performance. There are many thousands of people with treatable mental illnesses who are employed.

[Rianna Humble]

I have one of those old label makers.. And I use it to label all my tools and cabenits.. But I've never made one and actually stuck it on my self..

Why not? you might like it :eek:


I'm a CROSSDRESSER

Well, I'm a dresser - but it doesn't make me cross! :tongueout

[docrobbysherry]

Well, I'm a dresser - but it doesn't make me cross! :tongueout

"Un-crossdresser"? I LIKE IT!:heehee:

[The_Juggler]

perhaps I am woefully incorrect, but this is my perception of the terms Crossdresser and Transgender

Crossdresser - a man who does and thinks everything a man thinks, also enjoys wearing female clothing for any purpose. Has no intention of being or appearing as a woman.

Transgender - a man who intends to behave as, appear as, and be accepted as a woman. This can be all or some of the time.


Am I way off base?
By this definition I consider myself a crossdresser. I enjoy being and appearing as a man, but enjoy wearing women's clothing exclusively in private.

[sandra-leigh]

Transgender - a man who intends to behave as, appear as, and be accepted as a woman. This can be all or some of the time.

Am I way off base?

"Transgender" technically applies to everyone, no matter what they wear, no matter which sex or gender they are or want to be. In a technical sense, it is such a vague word, that you could substitute the word "human" (at least when discussing humans!) and you wouldn't have lost anything in the meaning.

However, the technical sense of "transgender" is not what "transgender" has culturally come to mean, at least not around where I live. Around here, "transgender" applies to anyone whose gender (social role or presentation or behaviour) does not (some or all of the time) match the propaganda of how a person of their biology "should" be or "should" behave. Which again is such a broad definition that it can apply to someone without their realizing it, and without it being a "serious" transgression. Mix up the wash and accidentally wear your wife's plain white t-shirt and you fit that definition of "transgender" -- because the idealized hypothetical North American male "wouldn't be caught dead" in his wife's clothes. So again, we get a definition that is near useless. (To which some theorists would say, "But that's exactly the point! The pure "man" and pure "woman" that people are supposed to act like don't actually exist, and everyone is transgender!")

When I'm talking to my therapist, or talking on here, or to people who know about Sandra, when I say that I am "TG" or "Transgender", what I mean by it is that I am conscious of being a mix of male and female, and that neither the traditional male nor the traditional female roles fit me -- that I am conscious enough of my traits that are associated with "female", that I no longer consider myself to be "a man"... but I also don't consider myself to be "a woman". So for me, when I'm talking about being TG, I am talking about that big stretch of middle ground, and knowing that I am somewhere in it -- and being willing to act and live in ways that "men" do not. Other people might instead use the word "androgynous" for the same thing, though the cultural sub-texts that I grew up with that are associated with "androgynous" don't make me feel comfortable in calling myself that.

Thus, part of the reason that we can't agree on what the labels mean, is that the labels are effectively meaningless because they cover too much, leaving each individual to give their own personal meaning to the words to suit themselves.

Note, by the way, that your definition of "transgender" doesn't cover the times when I walk down the street as "a guy in a dress" or "a guy in a skirt" -- not disguising my male face or my own (thinning) hair, but at the same time I have taken on the clothing and some behaviour typical of women. I'm not expecting that people will look at me, see my clothes, and look back at my face and somehow not perceive the shapings and distances and brows and lashes more characteristic of "male". I break the cultural assumptions of what a "man" is or a "woman" is -- and yet as long as I just go about my business without bothering anyone, it is amazing the number of people who just take it all in stride or don't notice, or who smile and say "I love your skirt" or the like.