Crossdresser Versus Diaperman

[msginaadoll]

Another post I read today made me think about how we judge others. Several months ago(close to a year) I was hanging out in Gigis here in the Detroit area. For those who dont know Gigis is a gay/lesbian bar that a number of us CD's hang out at especially on Saturday nights. Those are definitely dress to impress nights and everyone tries to look there best( or maybe Im just shallow) I was sitting at a table with a friend trying to look sexxy in a leather minidress and high heel boots. I say trying cause not so sure that was accomplishing it. I love to people watch and glancing over by the bar I saw something that amazed me. My friend notice it and said "Yes he's wearing a diaper." Sitting on a bar on a stool was a man with longer hair wearing a shirt and large adult diaper- no pants. My friend said "He comes here a lot- he's harmless" I finally was able to look away- felt like staring at an accident. Over the past months it gave me a chance to think about it off and one and I still chuckle about it. Fo me its for a different reason. As I latter said to anothe CD friend, here I am in guy in a leather dress passing judgement on a guy who wears a diaper. To some people we are both freaks and maybe I'm the one whos actualy stranger. You know what I guess I'm growing more comfortable with that. Next time I'm at Gigis and I see him I think I will buy him a drink. The only thing I wont do is sit down on the same stool as him. Im assuming the diaper was for style reasons and not physical health ones!!!

[Sallee]

Maybe it is so he doesn't lose his seat at the bar. LOL

I shouldn't laugh after all I am a guy i a dress What ever works !:2c:

[SuzanneBender]

Gina your tolerance needs to be applauded. :hugs: If we all approached each other with your attitude the world would be a better place. It takes great bravery to be less than 100% passable and step out of the closet and it takes that same amount of bravey to stroll into a bar in Detroit in a Diaper. Heck, Ghandi wore a diaper? Only thing is he wouldn't let you buy him a drink.

[sandra-leigh]

A number of months ago, perhaps even a year or more ago, someone did one of those "What if your wife came home one day and wanted to start wearing a packer?" type of threads, except they phrased it in such a way as to compare crossdressers to the Adult Children community. There was a fair bit of negative response, partly because the original poster in that thread phrased it in terms of cross-dressers being freaks (or at least would, to the general public, be perceived as being as much of a freak as an Adult Child would likely be perceived.)


Myself, I recognize that I am not comfortable with Adult Children, and my instinct is that there is a big gap between crossdressing and Adult Children -- but I do not have available a rationale for asserting that such a gap exists, so I do not presently claim that my instinct has objective truth. Prejudice, perhaps.

On the other hand, if someone finds the childhood sense of fun and wonder that I once had, I'd gladly pay the shipping to get them back.

[AmandaM]

I don't consider my crossdressing to be just a fetish. I consider it an internal female identity. So, I think the diaper guy is way different.

[Karren H]

Don't buy him too big a drink... You don't know how much that diaper can hold? :D

[msginaadoll]

Amanda, that was just what i was getting at in my post. "You" dont think that your dressing is a fetish. However others are not so quick to come to the same judgement. The man in the diapers may have seen himself in a different way than I viewed him. We all see the world through different eyes and bring our different feelings and views to the table. For me it was a lesson in my own views and prejudices. And besides that to me was an interesting story to tell and remember. Heck I may be an interseting story to someone. "Hey Ethel guess what I say at Walmart today- it was one of them trannys like on the Jerry Springer show. he was buying a copy of Wayne Newton's Greatest Hits."

[Jenny Beth]

"Hey Ethel guess what I say at Walmart today- it was one of them trannys like on the Jerry Springer show. he was buying a copy of Wayne Newton's Greatest Hits."


I guess I'm not very tolerant, anyone buying Wayne Newton's greatest hits has got to be a sicko.

But seriously you make a good point, we of all people shouldn't be so quick to judge others. Hell there was a time when piercings really bothered me, until my daughter ended up with twenty or so of them. Now I don't even notice them.

[Danielle Gee]

Good post Gina. It really puts things in perspective. To qoute Ben Franklin

"I think everyone is crazy except me and thee....And I'm not too sure about thee":brolleyes:

[Christina Horton]

I am the same way. I try not to judge people at first sight. Now I think wearing a diaper out whether you need it or not take courage , when it's under your clothes well you could guess maybe.....but to wear it and make sure the world can see you in it well IMHO that takes more balls , courage , and self worth to do that.




But seriously you make a good point, we of all people shouldn't be so quick to judge others. Hell there was a time when piercings really bothered me, until my daughter ended up with twenty or so of them. Now I don't even notice them.

I first got my first ear piercing when I was 19 and I could see everybody staring at it. It was just a small stud in my left ear , It was 1989 , I knew people was judging me and I could care less. I have a very thick skin and don't care what people think of me , but I know most people aren't like that. So I try to never judge people until I get to know them , I also try not to let people's opinion of others to sway my thoughts on them. If more people would do that it would be much better out there. I don't even notice people looking at my ear rings in drab anymore. I do see them see me when dressed , but that's another story lol .

[Nigella23]

You should never forget that peoples perception is reality, it's their reality, irregardless of wether that reality matches your own perceptions.
I love this post, because it has actually highlighted to myself how you can never really judge someone by their appearance, beliefs, life choices etc etc, but only through experience of their actions.

[bridget jones]

Depending on his intimate encounters he may have to wear a diaper.Some people will put anything in there no matter how big it is.

[Kate Simmons]

I think a real test of tolerance would be if we happened to see anthropomorphic animals crossdressing. It could happen in the multiverse.:)

[Crissy Kay]

Interesting subject. The Adult child to whom you refer may be an "LG" or Little Girl. That is an adult male who dresses up like a little girl of the fifties. They may wear a short very frilly dress, with full frilly petticoats. The look appeals to some fetish cds. While, I may like to give it a try, its really not my thing.

[kimmy p]

I think a real test of tolerance would be if we happened to see anthropomorphic animals crossdressing. It could happen in the multiverse.:)

You mean like this???

[AllieSF]

Great post Gina. I have the same view as you do. I just posted in a recent thread here about my experience of talking to an almost nude guy that walked into my favorite wine bar in San Francisco. No one talked to him. They all looked at him and then talked among themselves, probably about him after he first came in, and then basically ignored him. I eventually went up and talked to him a bit. I figured he must have a reason for doing this and so I asked him why. He said because he liked doing it. Gee, that is why I dress like a woman! Whatever floats his boat. Now, I would prefer that he was not in my specific life boat if at all possible. But if he was, what the heck. Life is too short to get too upset about anything like that.

[txrobinm]

You mean like this???

Be sure to sing "It had to be You"- the song of choice used whenever Bugs appeared in drag.

[Nicole Erin]

THOUGHTS -

Bugs bunny looks good en femme, that bitch. :Angry3:

CD VS diaper man -
Well us CD's aspire to pass as women. may or may not happen but after a certain body size, the chance of passing as a baby is hopeless. We think WE have challenges. :heehee: Man how would you like to have to clean up a grown up's poopy diaper? boy I don't know....

Wayne Newton -
Yeah it would take a real sicko to buy that but here is one worse - did you know some people paid MONEY to go watch Aqua Teen Hunger Force at the theatres? WHAT is the world coming to? Folks if you don't know what it is, it is worse than French cinema. :thumbsdn:

It had to be you -
Did you know in some southern states, well where sheep are seen as possible partners, them good ol boys (the ones who enjoy Jerry Springer) think the song is "It had to be ewe" Whatever you are thinking, you are right...

Christina said it takes more balls -
Hey umm, alright, not to argue about this but I just got done counting mine and I have only two. How many do most guys normally have? What is "a lot"?

My opinion - Well I don't care what someone wants to wear really.
Scientific fact - Aqua Teen Hunger Force just SUCKS

[Sideways]

But isn't it a harmless reaction?

It's not like you went up and shamed the guy.

So does it really need to be examined, dissected and turned into some form of bigotry or bias that calls for a cd supported rally for the diaperguy.

Then it's more of that do onto others thing which rarely works out. And still doesn't get into the context of what or whys you were feeling about diaperguy.

Maybe it's just outside of your personal boundaries - which which if you accept that some people aren't going to accept cds then shouldn't you be accepting that you might not just like diaperguys, even if they're cool people.

That its okay not to like people too. Yeah, it's biased but you're not burning a cross on his lawn, you're not advocating against his rights to wear a diaper.. so what's the big deal?

There's a lot of intolerance in tolerance too.

I know I am weird, but I need a little evil in my life, to just be able to vent off steam and be mean with some friends occasionally. There are so many people and issues in which people are offended by... it just gets insane after a while.

Like some parents group that actually lists crossing dressing in childrens' cartoons as subject matter that should come with a mature rating - as if a duck without pants isn't?

[StephSissy]

I give the guy credit for going out in public the way he wants. I've never been a judgemental person when it comes to how somebody looks or dresses. To each there own. I guess it's all based on how society has set the benchmark for acceptance. Why is it that a female could get away with wearing male clothing in public and not get all the looks and 'hidden' comments that a male would get wearing female clothing in public? Is it really fair that we should let society dictate what we can and can't wear? I say kudos to him for being himself and being brave enough to do it!

[nikkijo]

i can enlighten on the ab/dl scene more later but i have to admit due to serious and multiple neck/spinal injuries i from time to time am involved within both the cd community and the ab/dl community... i can saw tjis that guy has gutts...the ab/dl community is shunned more than cross dressers... trust me... know first hand.. buy the guy a double 4 me would ya..

[Babette]

[quote=msginaadoll;1970655]...Sitting on a bar on a stool was a man with longer hair wearing a shirt and large adult diaper- no pants. My friend said "He comes here a lot- he's harmless"...


I know it has be extremely cold in Detroit. To each his own, but what keeps him from freezing his Pamper's off? :eek:

Yikes!

Babette

[sandra-leigh]

The Adult child to whom you refer may be an "LG" or Little Girl. That is an adult male who dresses up like a little girl of the fifties.

One of the other posters posted an abbreviation that lead me to the term I had been looking for, "Adult Baby". The subject is discussed in Paraphilic_infantilism

[Marcie4you]

Sorry, just find the idea disgusting! Just Me!

[msginaadoll]

Thanks for all the responses. All you fine folks had me cracking up this morning. This was not really meant to be a deep discussion of bigotry, or prejudice. I just meant a little fun at something that I thought was amusing and eye opening at the time. The world out there is an interesting place and you certainly see some things that amaze and even shock u. I would have definitely had problems not looking if it was a near naked person like Allie mentioned. My diaperman and naked man both have something in common. They definitely stand out and dont worry about "passng"! Of course that is the same with some of us CDs. Maybe the time has come to toss on my sequin ball gown put on a tiara and hit the mall. Anyone want to join me?

[Persephone]

did you know some people paid MONEY to go watch Aqua Teen Hunger Force at the theatres? WHAT is the world coming to? Folks if you don't know what it is, it is worse than French cinema. :thumbsdn:

Scientific fact - Aqua Teen Hunger Force just SUCKS

Uh, would that be Aqua Teen Hunger Force Colon? Or Aqua Teen Hunger Force Zombie Ninja Pro-Am?

[Nicole Erin]

The little girl thing -
Oh yeah I have seen that a time or two, typically it seems older TG want to do that. They will wear like these petty coat outfits and dresses that would look good on Swiss Miss.

I don't know, sure I break gender rules myself but if I am to dress as a woman, I like to dress for my age and figure.

[Sideways]

Maybe the time has come to toss on my sequin ball gown put on a tiara and hit the mall. Anyone want to join me?

Sure, I might even play it low-key to my fantasies of going to a reunion with "The Homecoming Queen's Got A Gun" playing through the room along with almost every cliche to be had.

Despite my nature I do take myself or issues too seriously more often than I should.

[ReineD]

I don't consider my crossdressing to be just a fetish. I consider it an internal female identity. So, I think the diaper guy is way different.


Amanda, that was just what i was getting at in my post. "You" dont think that your dressing is a fetish. However others are not so quick to come to the same judgement. The man in the diapers may have seen himself in a different way than I viewed him.

This is very much an eye opener for me as well. Thanks for bringing it up! :hugs:

I always thought of infantilism as a fetish, but that's because I associated it with behaviors that are done in private, strictly for sexual gratification, although I don't know much about it. It never occurred to me that someone might actually identify that way and find (at least at times) a feeling of non-sexual comfort in expressing himself that way, and might further feel a sense of freedom or elation in being able to do so in public, if he felt he could go out and be accepted without being judged .... just like a CD wanting to express her femme self.

Lots of CDs do admit they dress for purely sexual reasons ... the stereotypical view being that these CDs keep it behind closed doors, they don't try nor do they want blend, they don't identify femme, and they mostly wear what excites them sexually. But, when I read posts and look at the pics in the Gallery from the CDs who do not feel their dressing is paraphilic, there are still many sexy, suggestive outfits and sentiments. And as you say, many enjoy wearing edgier clothing in clubs for example. And unlike GGs, they don't do it to attract a sexual partner, but more because the focus is on feeling sexy. There is a subtle difference. So one can hardly say the sexual element disappears entirely even among the CDs who identify as female and who dress in public to blend.

You bring up an inderesting point, an added dimension to the mix. You are questioning whether the paraphilic difference between the infantilist and the average CD is only a question of degree .... you bring up the possibility they either are both paraphiles, or they are not. Interesting. I never thought of it this way and I would not be so quick to rule it out entirely, at least not across the board.

The TSs I know do not overly preoccupy themselves with clothing ... the image I have in mind is a TS who enjoys looking nice, but who would just as soon be seen in cute jeans and sneakers than fishnets, sexy shoes, and a curve-hugging dress.

Before anyone gets upset, :hiding: I am not saying this is my belief and it is true. It is merely a point that I had not previously thought as having the possibility of being valid .. the idea that the average CDs, because of their focus on looks, clothing, and wanting to feel sexy as opposed to purely feeling female (they are not the same thing), are closer to the fetishistic aspect of dressing than I had previously thought. :confused:

[RobynP]

It's one thing to see someone in a bar wearing a diaper with no pants, being mostly nude, or dressing up like a child... However, to see these people in a different locale such as one's workplace is a completely different thing.

Being understanding as to how someone looks does not mean that the understanding is valid for anytime and anywhere.

Robyn P.

[Acadeca]

A number of months ago, perhaps even a year or more ago, someone did one of those "What if your wife came home one day and wanted to start wearing a packer?" type of threads, except they phrased it in such a way as to compare crossdressers to the Adult Children community. There was a fair bit of negative response, partly because the original poster in that thread phrased it in terms of cross-dressers being freaks (or at least would, to the general public, be perceived as being as much of a freak as an Adult Child would likely be perceived.)


Myself, I recognize that I am not comfortable with Adult Children, and my instinct is that there is a big gap between crossdressing and Adult Children -- but I do not have available a rationale for asserting that such a gap exists, so I do not presently claim that my instinct has objective truth. Prejudice, perhaps.



I'm sure the adult children would think that there's a big gap between them and CDers also--but they'd believe that "THEY" are the more normal ones. That's because they're used to wearing diapers, so it doesn't same strange to them, just as CDing doesn't seem strange to you because you're used to it

I think your average person who belongs to neither group probably thinks of both groups as equally far away from the norm. Hard to prove without a survey though.

[Acadeca]

It's one thing to see someone in a bar wearing a diaper with no pants, being mostly nude, or dressing up like a child... However, to see these people in a different locale such as one's workplace is a completely different thing.

Being understanding as to how someone looks does not mean that the understanding is valid for anytime and anywhere.

Robyn P.

Some people would say the same about CDing though.Judge not lest..well, you know the rest.

[Sarah Doepner]

I used to think of it as a continuum, a bell curve where there were a couple of distinct ends of the spectrum. I'm beginning to think it's more like a pile of mashed potatoes on the plate. And that's before the gravy.

[ReineD]

It strikes me the issue is more about social convention than anything else. Culturally we rely on rules that dictate what is and is not acceptable, based for example on the idea that that men shouldn't wear skirts in public because they are men, or for that matter shouldn't wear diapers because they are adults. Or women shouldn't walk around looking like hookers. And people in general should look as if they are hygienic.

People do have a revulsion towards what falls outside of the norms and the popular explanation is this is because of social conditioning, which can be changed with education and laws. But I sometimes wonder if it is not more about hard-wiring, if as a whole we disapprove of behaviors or indications of behaviors that do not fall in line with the survival or our species and the proper functioning of our society.

[docrobbysherry]

U MAY have stumbled upon something LESS acceptable than a CDer in a mask!?:eek:
( I wonder if Sherry'd look cute in diapers?):heehee:


The little girl thing -
Oh yeah I have seen that a time or two, typically it seems older TG want to do that.
I don't know, sure I break gender rules myself but if I am to dress as a woman, I like to dress for my age and figure.

Gosh, Nicole, I CAN'T IMAGINE why ANYONE would want to appear younger than they REALLY r?:heehee:



I always thought of infantilism as a fetish, but that's because I associated it with behaviors that are done in private, strictly for sexual gratification, although I don't know much about it.

Lots of CDs do admit they dress for purely sexual reasons ... the stereotypical view being that these CDs keep it behind closed doors, they don't try nor do they want blend, they don't identify femme, and they mostly wear what excites them sexually.
.
the idea that the average CDs, because of their focus on looks, clothing, and wanting to feel sexy as opposed to purely feeling female (they are not the same thing), are closer to the fetishistic aspect of dressing than I had previously thought. :confused:

Here's another thot for u, Reine. I have TRIED to dress so as to appear as a young girl. I've also dressed as elegant, older ladies. And I admit to dressing for sexual reasons MOST of the time, and I'm not expressing my "inner woman"! I don't find EITHER of these female images sexually exciting at all!:sad:

So, why do I attempt to portray them? I'm NOT SURE! The standard answer, "Because, I CAN", doesn't really explain it!

103846103847

[IamSara]

I don't consider my crossdressing to be just a fetish. I consider it an internal female identity. So, I think the diaper guy is way different.
Exactly my thoughts on the subject.
Sarah :rose2:

[Acadeca]

I don't consider my crossdressing to be just a fetish. I consider it an internal female identity. So, I think the diaper guy is way different.

And adult babies consider their habit an internal childlike identity. When that first baby thread was posted, I went to an adult baby forum and found a thread comparing infantilism to other fetishes. Sure enough, several people said that being an adult baby is nowhere near as freakish as being a CD.

It's all about perspective, folks.

[meri]

Adult babies would seem to be a case of arrested development, something happened during their childhood which locked them into a particular place. The normal course for all species is to grow-up to adulthood and leave the trappings of baby-hood behind. This suggests to me adult babies are in need of therapy to help them move past their blockage.

Not so sure the same thing applies to men who dress as women or men who want to be women. It would depend on the person and their motivations for their behavior. GG's often swing back and forth between a feminine and masculine look, hence, it ought to be "normal" for men to do the same thing. Unfortunately, in our culture, it isn't considered normal, but I would argue in this case, the cultural view is biased and in need of correction.

Hence, my "perspective" is that adult-babies are in need of therapy, and our western culture needs to correct it's bias against men who want to appear feminine.

[AmberLynn]

sound's like fun. It is interesting at least to me how "normal" people precive the unusal. My ex "a domanatrix" had a AB fetish wear she would dress me up like a little girl and put me in a diaper. one time she even took me thru down town at closing time to show me off. And i often think to myself,on to one man his own. I have seen cd/tg/gay/lesi/nude's/very few in person ab's and you know what i have come to. If you take away there outfit's what do you have....the same as you when your naked. Everyone aspires to be there own person be it a guy in a dress,or someone in a diaper. I would have a drink with him for sure,bet there would a life long freind to make :hugs:

and in adding to the post above,i watched something on secret live's of woman about fetishes that included a AB. And she said that when we are baby's we are cared for and takin care of every need fulfilled but we are to young to enjoy it. AB get to have best of both world's they get to be adult's out and about and at home be takin care of like a baby would. I find nothing wrong with that at all

[carolinoakland]

Bugs was my first exposure to cd'ing.And he was gooood too! Carol

[miss robyn]

I'm not gonna lie, besides dressing, one of my fetishes is wearing diapers. I don't wear the petty coats or do the little girl thing, I keep dressing and wearing of the diapers seperate. I haven't done the diaper thing in like 2yrs.

Iono why I wear, but for me I would only wear a diaper in confines of my own place and not out in public. Iono thats just me.

[tricia_uktv]

Each to their own surely. We are the last people who can judge anybody else. And if it gives us a laugh, so what. What are we doing to others? So be proud of whether you are a baby, a schoolgirl, a french maid, whatever. Enjoy it and have fun!

[sherri52]

He has an advantage over you. He can go in his diaper and still be the person he is appearing to be.

[HappyErica]

here is a good article about ab/dl's http://www.villagevoice.com/2002-08-13/columns/still-in-diapers/

[Loopy]

Why hello there, I'm Loopy (as my user name suggests) and I'm an ab :X. Yes, we're keeping an eye on this thread from our underground bunker on a pacific island (think Thunderbirds, but with more teddies).

Ok, enough sillyness, someone posted a link to this thread on an abdl forum, which is how I found my way here. It is interesting seeing how another subculture/fetish/lifestyle/whatever views my own subculture/fetish/lifestyle, and most posts here shows what I'd expect, an acceptance for someone different, if a little basic on knowledge of what an ab is (same with me and my knowledge of crossdressers really). Also, reading what you've all got to say about abs makes me look at what I think of crossdressers, I might be a little more understanding, but only because there are a large contingent of TGs, Sissies (guys who like to be little girls) and CDs already in the community, who I consider good people.
The major thing I see here is alot of people assuming that Abism is a fetish for everyone involved. It is for some, for others its more of a lifestyle choice, for others it's a bit of both. Just the same as crossdressing I bet. Also some like to wear nappies all the time, others every now and then as a release. Again the same as crossdressing. I think there's alot of similarities between these two subcultures, ab's want to get in contact with their juvenile side, whilst cds want to get in contact with their feminist side, we're both get weird looks when we go out in public dressed up, we're both for the most part normal people, with a normal life, but with a weird "thing" tacked onto it. And there's different levels that people take it too, from someone wearing/playing in the bedroom, to someone who goes shopping in full on outfits. I may be simplifying things, but well I only know my side of this coin :P.


Adult babies would seem to be a case of arrested development, something happened during their childhood which locked them into a particular place. The normal course for all species is to grow-up to adulthood and leave the trappings of baby-hood behind. This suggests to me adult babies are in need of therapy to help them move past their blockage.

Not so sure the same thing applies to men who dress as women or men who want to be women. It would depend on the person and their motivations for their behavior. GG's often swing back and forth between a feminine and masculine look, hence, it ought to be "normal" for men to do the same thing. Unfortunately, in our culture, it isn't considered normal, but I would argue in this case, the cultural view is biased and in need of correction.

Hence, my "perspective" is that adult-babies are in need of therapy, and our western culture needs to correct it's bias against men who want to appear feminine.

This is the post that made me sign up and want to reply. This is the only post that made me well quite angry really. The assumption that all AB's need to be in therapy is pretty degrading and hurtful. As for a case of arrested development, for the most part (there's always some bad eggs, I'm sure you get em as well :X) we're normal people. We have a life, we have cars, houses, families, friends, and hobbies, we're not stuck at a mental age of 2, not able to move on from some event in the past. Did the past cause us to be abs? maybe, maybe we just liked that bit of our life so much that we enjoy visiting it again. Basically, we're like everyone else, just sometimes we want to be little again.
If I said "Hence, my "perspective" is that Crossdressers are in need of therapy, and our western culture needs to correct it's bias against men who want to appear childish." Maybe you can see where I'm coming from.

If you want to see what the other side is saying here's a link to the thread http://www.dailydiapers.com/board/index.php?showtopic=19357

Well I guess that's it for now, if it seems like the ramblings of a madman, that's because the men in white coats haven't caught up with me. Who ever you are, as long as you are happy with who you are, well that's all that matters isn't it? :D
Loopy

[msginaadoll]

:heehee:Wow we have some smart folks on this forum. I enjoyed reading all the posts but wow, some went right over my head. I did gradiate colage but I guess I aint no rocket scientist. Im glad to read some many perspectives, and thank you Loopy for sharing yours. My post was just meant to be a light hearted viw of the need for tolerance and hopefully acceptance of others. Even though I have no clue why anyone would ever want to put on a diaper. Heck I hate the way my boxers feel at times under my clothes. Now a thong I understand, or maybe some nice french cut panties or.....

[trannie T]

Is it a little funny that some men who prance around in dresses look down on people who choose to wear diapers?

[docrobbysherry]

Why hello there, I'm Loopy (as my user name suggests) and I'm an ab :
--- alot of people assuming that Abism is a fetish for everyone involved. It is for some, for others its more of a lifestyle choice, for others it's a bit of both. Just the same as crossdressing I bet.Loopy

Sounds like we have something ELSE in common with the AB community:
We BOTH seem to feel the need to separate ourselves from those HORRIBLE FETISH FOLKS!:eek:

However, (and without knowing ANYTHING about AB's), I'll bet MOST of them get some sort of charge from it, same as most CDs!:D

[Loopy]

Sounds like we have something ELSE in common with the AB community:
We BOTH seem to feel the need to separate ourselves from those HORRIBLE FETISH FOLKS!:eek:

However, (and without knowing ANYTHING about AB's), I'll bet MOST of them get some sort of charge from it, same as most CDs!:D

Hey, I'm not gonna lie, for me a major part of it is fetish, just some do want to distance themselves from the sexual side. The thing is... even after I get my rocks off I like to stay "little" for a while at least :tongueout. So for me its a bit of both.

Trannie T: I think that's part of the human condition, we always looking for someone we can feel superior too. Personally I stick to looking down on Scientologists :devil:.

[baby_tgirl]

I don't consider my crossdressing to be just a fetish. I consider it an internal female identity. So, I think the diaper guy is way different.

Before I speak my piece on this... I'm trans. K, now that's out there.

For some of you, crossdressing is a fetish. For others, it's a reflection of your inner female.
I never really had a CDer phase. I tried "genderqueer" for like a week, then plunged head first in to full transition... however... My chosen appearance, how I speak, the name I carry... All these things reflect me, the fact that I'm a woman regardless of what my birth certificate says. I'm sure that all makes sense to all of you.

So that guy at the bar... People assume he's in a diaper as some fetish, to get his jollies. Just the same as some of you (I said SOME not ALL) put on a dress for your jollies, that might very well be true for him.
However, for others, like myself, child-like behaviors, a pacifier, teddy bear, what-have-you, is not at all a fetish, but a reflection of my inner child self.

So who am I? Part little girl, part 26 year old woman. I balance them till it works. I don't have a male persona. He was fake and no longer exists. What's left is the real me. Part of that real me never grew up and doesn't want to.

My point?
Don't assume it's a fetish, and y'all might have more in common with him than you think.

I don't remember the screen name of the tolerant poster (original poster?), but I applaud your tolerance.

[baby_tgirl]

I'm sure the adult children would think that there's a big gap between them and CDers also--but they'd believe that "THEY" are the more normal ones. That's because they're used to wearing diapers, so it doesn't same strange to them, just as CDing doesn't seem strange to you because you're used to it

I think your average person who belongs to neither group probably thinks of both groups as equally far away from the norm. Hard to prove without a survey though.

As someone who has ties to both groups...
Yes, both are not "normal", but I see "normal" as a horribly negative term.
Ie... "We don't like you, you're, ugh, normal. Go away before you get "normie" all over us!" :evilbegon


Adult babies would seem to be a case of arrested development, something happened during their childhood which locked them into a particular place. The normal course for all species is to grow-up to adulthood and leave the trappings of baby-hood behind. This suggests to me adult babies are in need of therapy to help them move past their blockage.

Not so sure the same thing applies to men who dress as women or men who want to be women. It would depend on the person and their motivations for their behavior. GG's often swing back and forth between a feminine and masculine look, hence, it ought to be "normal" for men to do the same thing. Unfortunately, in our culture, it isn't considered normal, but I would argue in this case, the cultural view is biased and in need of correction.

Hence, my "perspective" is that adult-babies are in need of therapy, and our western culture needs to correct it's bias against men who want to appear feminine.


One could say that you, whilst in your male persona, were damaged or traumatized... thus you flee from your male persona and seek a female one.

Different take, no? Some people still think gays need therapy.

[Acadeca]

Adult babies would seem to be a case of arrested development, something happened during their childhood which locked them into a particular place. The normal course for all species is to grow-up to adulthood and leave the trappings of baby-hood behind. This suggests to me adult babies are in need of therapy to help them move past their blockage.

Not so sure the same thing applies to men who dress as women or men who want to be women. It would depend on the person and their motivations for their behavior. GG's often swing back and forth between a feminine and masculine look, hence, it ought to be "normal" for men to do the same thing. Unfortunately, in our culture, it isn't considered normal, but I would argue in this case, the cultural view is biased and in need of correction.

Hence, my "perspective" is that adult-babies are in need of therapy, and our western culture needs to correct it's bias against men who want to appear feminine.

I'm neither an adult baby nor a CD, but this post makes me angry as well. There's no real reasoning here, just "My lifestyle is normal, but anyone with your lifestyle needs therapy."

"The normal course for all species is to grow-up to adulthood and leave the trappings of baby-hood behind." Right. And the normal thing for men to do is to do anything possible to look like a woman?

[AmandaM]

What is the fetish of AB's? CDer's have been known to "pretend" they are women when they have sex. How does an AB fetish operate?

[baby_tgirl]

What is the fetish of AB's? CDer's have been known to "pretend" they are women when they have sex. How does an AB fetish operate?

Being a non-fetishist AB.... I don't have first hand knowledge here.
From what I've seen, being an adult dressed as a baby gets some people off. I do know this does NOT involve actual children, only consenting adults playing the part.

Although, I must say, some people look cute all babied up. Some, not all.

Of course, cute and sexy are two different things.

[ajside]

Hello Everyone,

I'm also from the DD website, so firstly, to my fellow DD'ers, please remember this isn't our house so please, please be respectful. No one has violated this yet, but we wouldn't appreciate it on our site.

For the CD'ers, DD is a multi threaded site. We have adult babies, adult kids, diaper lovers. Throw in gay, straight, transgendered, any age, any sex and you have a true melting pot. We can't even agree to disagree at times. So there are many different ways we could define what adult babies mean for us.

Being a strict diaper lover myself, I can't explain AB myself. However, if you were to come over to our house and suggest we needed counseling wouldn't go over very well. :D However, for someone to sit in a bar in a diaper and shirt doesn't really stand for our values in the DD community and I hope you don't hold this as the "candlestick" for the AB/DL community.

Sincerely,
Opie

[padded_butt]

Hello, another diapered visitor ;)

First let me say I appreciate the sentiment of tolerance many of you seem to have. It is far more common for us to be ostracized than even grudgingly accepted. Thank you to those that can be open minded enough to leave each to their own.

In this discussion a significant portion of the ABDL crowd hasn't been talked about, which is the DLs (Diaper Lover). We are the ones that don't really care for he trappings of being a baby (either the "props" or acting like one). Conversely, there are ABs that only wear diapers because that is a part of the role and not for the diapers themselves.

Based on her description, I suspect the muse for this thread is probably a DL rather than an AB.


What is the fetish of AB's? CDer's have been known to "pretend" they are women when they have sex. How does an AB fetish operate?

Like any other "fetish" group, it varies from person to person. There are even some (mostly ABs in my experience, though there are some DLs too) that do not sexualize them at all.

For me, there are two aspect to the sexual side. For myself, it is all about the tactile feel. For the rare occasions my wife will wear one for me, it is the same (to me) as seeing her in any other "sexy" outfit.

At the same time, I can be just as happy wearing one for a weekend without seeking sexual stimulation.

I don't really have an explanation for it and finally have stopped trying to find one. As long as it makes me happy and isn't hurting anyone else (I am a firm opponent of showing off in public and thereby forcing it on other people), what does it matter?

[AmandaM]

Interesting. As long as it doesn't involve children, as you said, I don't really have a problem with it. Course, if you were to "pretend" you were a child having sex, I couldn't dig that. To me, that would be kind of a reverse pedo-thing. Hmmmm....

[giuseppina]

Adult babies would seem to be a case of arrested development, something happened during their childhood which locked them into a particular place. ...

How do you know? Do you have any professional qualifications (psychiatry) in this regard?

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

[ajside]

Interesting. As long as it doesn't involve children, as you said, I don't really have a problem with it. Course, if you were to "pretend" you were a child having sex, I couldn't dig that. To me, that would be kind of a reverse pedo-thing. Hmmmm....

Amanda, our community is very judicious about that. It simply is not condoned for any discussion about involving children in this lifestyle.

For the most part on what's represented, most of the ABs are non-sexual in that stage. They like the tenderness and caring and worry free that is absent from adult life. Some of them have "Mommys" and "Daddy's". It all goes back to that whatever makes you happy, you know?

Of course, we're large, so we have more than a fair share of people who are way off the line. :D

[AmberLynn]

And thats one of the biggest misconception's about AB's, That it is a sick child style fetish. I have before read thru many AB"s site's when i was with my ex cause i hate child pornogrhy and thing's to that degree,I feel them people need to be shot "off topic my bad,just get's my neck up" There is never a child involved. All party's are consinting adult's. And I refuse to judge my fellow man as anything but that. Let he who is with out sin cast the first stone. Before you make a rash desion on what's tolarable and whats not people should do a little research. Far be it for a cd to judge a ab/dl or anyone eles in the world. If we could set aside petty diffrences like this the would be a much nicer place to live. :2c:

[Elle44]

Funny how we judge people even if they are straight as an arrow and some can find "queer" things about most others. Queer meaning different from the norm, whatever that is. There are people out there that look at the TG community as scarey people, who don't really understand us at all and are just plain ignorant (no pun intended, but they never researched what we're all about, and don't care to), they just label us whatever comes to their small minds. They think of us as some sort of sex deviates, just like they do same sex marriages when in reality the sex act itself is but a small part of life compared to other responsibility's in whole complete relationships, they just think of the sex act, not the love one has for the other or each other.

And I'm sure the same applies in our own community (TG) when it's ok for a straight couple male (crossdresser) and a gg wife or a male (crossdresser) and a gg girlfriend may look at 2 male's who are both male to female crossdressers in a relationship/marriage replusive, but the male (crossdresser) who is married to a gg wife is ok, nothing wrong with that though???????? So there is this double standard even in our own community.

In reality we in our community are at the bottom of the social ladder. Even the gay community, some not all, don't accept us. The straight community say at least a gay individual knows what they want, but the tg community don't know what they want to be, half male, half female. They really don't understand that at least I didn't just wake up one day and decide to just play female for awhile. They fail to realize that inside I was a girl in a man's body and they can't possibly understand that, they don't have to go through that war within themselves such as some of us have. LOL I do love my female side so much more than my male and always have.

Hope I haven't confused anybody! Live your lives to the fullest and take each day and unwrap it like a precious gift. Always remember we're just visiting here, just passing through in our journey through life. Hugs, Elle

[Sarah Doepner]

Is it a little funny that some men who prance around in dresses look down on people who choose to wear diapers?

Excuse me? If I were to "prance" I'd break my ankle. Then I'd be down and in diapers myself and maybe learning how to more fully appreciate another view of the world.

[Lacy PJs]

The only thing that bothers me when people say that you must be "more tolerant," is that it may lead to too much acceptance. No one likes to hear it but it is the old "slippery slope" arguement. The more you accept and tolerate, the more you lose your sense of good & bad, right & wrong.

Way too many times, I've heard people say "It's wrong for me but if they want to do it..." Why is something wrong for you and not for someone else? I don't like situational ethics. If something is right, it's right. If it's wrong, it's wrong.

So just be careful that you don't lose your sense of right and wrong because you are all accepting.

Lacy PJs

[Acadeca]

The only thing that bothers me when people say that you must be "more tolerant," is that it may lead to too much acceptance. No one likes to hear it but it is the old "slippery slope" arguement. The more you accept and tolerate, the more you lose your sense of good & bad, right & wrong.



Lacy PJs

So "just enough" is accepting cross dressing, while accepting the adult baby lifestyle is "too much acceptance?"

[nikkijo]

being on both DD ( great site btw) and here ( also good but different reasons) p can say for a fact that the people over there aare ultimately slightly more accepting than that of the group here... but being that said, there are always the bad eggs from both that end up on jerry springer that give all of us bad names regardless of what we all enjoy... hell there isnt anything someone prude enough couldnt find offensive...

i can say that the subject matter is a bit more indepth and real over on DD but i think its diversity has alot to do with it.. and within the ABDL genre there is more room for imagination, stories and roll play adventures which draw depth out of people versus asking what collor my panties are today.. maybe its an age demographic thing but the abdl community seems younger as well,

each place has its own niche and as for situational exceptance i beg to differ...


if you were fully "normal" and felt CDing or ddiapers was wrong, but i myself was a transitioning diagnosed and intersexed trans sexual who had a medical abnormality that caused me to be incontinent and dress as my pre chosen choice of gender i wanted to pass as why wouldnt the statment "its wrong for be but ok for you" not apply....

lacy pj's that statment makes you no better than a dousch that calls a cross dresser a fag because they dress different... its rude and inconsiderate... and biggoted..


there are some of us here that have medical reasons for doing what we do, andthe fact we choose to embrace our problems and turn them positive and for our bennifit should not be forgotten... i for one have had my back broken 2 times and my neck once... the fact that my only issue is occational OAB and slight to severe pain is concidered a godsend... i really shouldnt be even able to walk or function for that matter.. neck was broken at c4 c5 and c6 so the fact i can strut around in 6" heels and function day to day with a minor inconvienence of needing a diaper or other absorbant product from time to time to manage a problem shouldnt be intollerated... the fact i get piece of mind and stress relief through the useage of said products is no different than the reasons i dress...its a comfort thing.. i feel all cute and sexy dressed can feel like im a rich princess or a sexy diva and get away from the fact i am a struggling small business owner verging on loosing everything i own if winter is even a day to long.. with a large sum of medical bills due to work related injerys compounded by biological/developmental problems that effect me as a whole on average about 10 days a month...


a diaper and nothing else than an alternative form of underware.. regardless of the reasoning behind it.. same as the panties you are wearing, or the thong i am, or the boxers i will be stuck wearing tomarrow..

[Shelly Preston]

Firstly a quick welcome to those who have decided to visit from the DD website



The only thing that bothers me when people say that you must be "more tolerant," is that it may lead to too much acceptance. No one likes to hear it but it is the old "slippery slope" arguement. The more you accept and tolerate, the more you lose your sense of good & bad, right & wrong.

I am sorry but to me being tolerant means accepting others provided they are not hurting anyone else.
We as a community are trying to be accepted the the main stream community, yet some of us choose to condemn others



Way too many times, I've heard people say "It's wrong for me but if they want to do it..." Why is something wrong for you and not for someone else? I don't like situational ethics. If something is right, it's right. If it's wrong, it's wrong.

So just be careful that you don't lose your sense of right and wrong because you are all accepting.

Lacy PJs

I can understand if someone says its wrong for them for all sorts of reasons

I do not have any interest in the Adult Baby community but I do understand they have a need the same as crossdressers have a need.

Your snense of right and wrong need not be diminished by tolerance

[diapersissy]

I've been fallowing this post since it first came up. I have been dressing for a number of years and was hooked on wearing panties for a long time. Then I had some neck injuries years ago. I had a fusion on c5, c6 & c7. The nerve damage along with the meds caused some issues with bladder control especially at night. After pissing in the bed a couple times and wetting myself once or twice I started wearing pads during the day and diapers at night. The first time I woke with a warm wet diaper I was really aroused. I gradually regained most of my control but I was hooked on the feeling and convenience of diapers, I guess I’m what is referred to as a DL [diaper lover]. Now I often wear when I'm out for a long time and always when I dress. It eliminates the problem of deciding which rest room to use when I'm dressed. It's nice when you always have a place to go! I don't flaunt the diaper but if you ever get a peak up my skirt you won't see regular panties. Like dressing, I feel it's harmless. If you wonder what it's like try one sometime, you might get hooked like I did

[Elle44]

Bravo diapersissy, bravo!:love:

[ReineD]

What is DD?

ABDL = Adult Baby/Diaper Lover?

[Daintre]

DD is the Daily Diaper site

Yes to the second question

[ReineD]

Thanks Jenni! :)

Wow, that's a huge site. I noticed pics of CDs there too. This does not startle me, since infantilism is also a form of subordination? And the idea of being submissive is certainly not uncommon in the TG community .. in fact I would guess it is pretty much the norm.

When I first became aware of CDing, my knowledge was superficial and I did believe it was a form of fantasy play. My attitude changed as I got to know my SO and other members of this community. Still, I believed other forms of character expression (within the BDSM community at large) to be fantasy play as well. Now I see this is not necessarily true. Or, as with every other community, the degree of self-identification vs. role play varies from member to member.

I wish I had the ability to let go and allow myself to even discover, let alone express some of my basic instincts and desires. I do not know what I would discover. But if I could do this it would be the embodiment of self-acceptance. And I'm sure I would be better able to resolve some issues in my life. I admire people who can do this.

It is understandable that a society needs a certain structure in order to function. There are rules for our survival, such as moving beyond the childhood stage to adulthood in order to be a responsible and productive member of society, or staying within our genders to ensure the propagation of our species. It makes sense to me why many people instinctually fear those who do not appear to conform to these rules. And we have been indoctrinated to not be tolerant of people who appear to live outside the 'norms'. This is where I believe homo/transphobia comes from for example. Or if we choose to break a norm for ourselves, we are not tolerant of others who break different norms. So we've fashioned a society where a degree of decorum must be followed, although there is a tolerance for what people choose to do behind closed doors, as long as it is not illegal. But there is a difference between self-expression and not being a productive member of society. I believe that in our culture especially since the 60s, social norms are slowly widening enough to accept this as long as we believe that a certain personal expression does not fundamentally threaten the fabric of our society.

I hope that acceptance of someone's need to step beyond birth gender is increasing. I don't know if we'll get to a point where we also accept someone's need to express an inner child. Maybe.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I believe there is a correlation between CDing and infantilism. They are both valid forms of self-expression.

[Loopy]

Thanks Jenni! :)

Wow, that's a huge site. I noticed pics of CDs there too. This does not startle me, since infantilism is also a form of subordination? And the idea of being submissive is certainly not uncommon in the TG community .. in fact I would guess it is pretty much the norm.



There's more then just that site, and they're equally as big as well :X. As for submissive, yea I think it is a large part of it, but not in the way most people think of. As an ab, I want to be told what to do at certain times, and I want the "caregiver" to make decisions on when to goto bed, whats for dinner etc etc. But to some extent that caregiver is also submissive to the ab, in terms of changing nappies, making sure they feel safe and looked after, preparing/feeding food. It's a little of both, but at the end of the day the caregiver is the one with the power, its just different from the tradition Dom Sub partnership people think of.



When I first became aware of CDing, my knowledge was superficial and I did believe it was a form of fantasy play. My attitude changed as I got to know my SO and other members of this community. Still, I believed other forms of character expression (within the BDSM community at large) to be fantasy play as well. Now I see this is not necessarily true. Or, as with every other community, the degree of self-identification vs. role play varies from member to member.

I wish I had the ability to let go and allow myself to even discover, let alone express some of my basic instincts and desires. I do not know what I would discover. But if I could do this it would be the embodiment of self-acceptance. And I'm sure I would be better able to resolve some issues in my life. I admire people who can do this.


I think fantasy/roleplay is a large part of both these "kinks" due to the simple fact that for the most part we can't get away with being what we want to be when we're in that mind set, some cross dressers maybe able to pass, but all abs will find a hard time passing as a 2 yr old :P. But this follows on from the self identification part, part of me is truly a little boy, and I need to let that part out at times, and I can only let that out by roleplaying really. I'm sure its just the same with most cds (correct me if I'm wrong :P) part of you is very much a female, to what ever degree that maybe.
As for the second paragraph, I think that's the same for alot of people, they're afraid of what they'll find out about themselves. Same with me.... don't really want to go too far down the road of kinkyness, here is just about right :P



I hope that acceptance of someone's need to step beyond birth gender is increasing. I don't know if we'll get to a point where we also accept someone's need to express an inner child. Maybe.


I think the acceptance of peoples inner child is already happening, and its very subversive. From computer games being played mostly by the 18-30 age group, the styles of some PJ's for women, the fact that people are leaving home at a later age, even down to kingsizing chocolate bars, so they're more in tune with the size difference you felt when you where younger. Ok so they're not sat wearing a nappy and sucking on a paci, but still....
And I like to think that society as a whole is getting more and more accepting as we move on. (then I read something like that story from Uganda and despair :/)

Lacypj, I think if you stick to certain morale stances your sense of good and bad stay intact. All these different kinks and fetishes and what not.... as long as its between consenting adults, and isn't causing any harm then I don't see and issue. I may not want to hear about them all, but I'm not going to stop someone from having fun and feeling more at home with themselves.

AmandaM: I can understand where you're coming from with the "Reverse pedophile" angle. Its hard to describe, but I think the turn on comes from the above mentioned powerplay, plus for lots of us the diapers themselves. Basically its very hard to roleplay a 2 year old whilst actively having sex. Sadly due to the nature of our fetish links to pedophiles is a given, and this makes most abdls slightly more militant towards them then the average person. We like the innocence, the niceness, the closeness, and happiness that infant hood allows, pedo's seek to destroy that.

Sorry for another mammoth post :X

Loopy.

[sandra-leigh]

And the idea of being submissive is certainly not uncommon in the TG community .. in fact I would guess it is pretty much the norm.


I've never gotten the impression that being submissive is the norm in the TG community.

One of the threads roughly 6 or 8 weeks ago did list some elements someone had observed to be common to TS children, and favouring pink and identification strongly with the Disney princesses was said to be particularly strong... that could, I suppose, be interpreted as hyper-feminism and since submissiveness is (or was) a part of traditional feminine behaviour in a number of cultures, one could hypothesize that the children would tend to be submissive. On the other hand, the TS children being discussed were those who were willing to assert their TS identity in the face of the social norms, which is an indication of a pretty strong sense of individual identity: the submissive TS child would submit to the prevailing social morals and largely bury their TS identity, thus taking them outside of the observation of the person who put together the aforementioned list... We must thus conclude that that list is useless in predicting whether or not any particular TS child will be submissive.


Personally, I identify as TG (gender-fluid non-polarized... some might use the term "androgynous"), but some TS's have indicated that they believe I'm TS. I am not submissive; I've stuck out since at least grade 1, and I never learned how to conform, nor tried to learn to conform. I was involved with a woman who turned out to be fairly controlling; I moved out within 3 months, because I would not be controlled.

But there is a difference between "submissive" and "anti-social"; I have put a lot of effort in working for "the greater good", and have done so knowing that doing so sets me apart from the majority of the society I am supporting, because the majority of society believes in "looking out for #1", in trading personal conscience for money. "The Devil wears Prada" so to speak.

[Fab Karen]

Don't buy him too big a drink... You don't know how much that diaper can hold? :D
That wacko woman who worked for NASA had a special diaper that lasted a looong time.

[ReineD]

I've never gotten the impression that being submissive is the norm in the TG community.

If you do an advanced title search using the key term 'submissive' you will see many threads that prove otherwise. I believe there is even a poll. And these are only the threads with the term in the title. I can't possibly list all the other instances, but I've often read members post they felt submissive if not in guy mode, then certainly when dressed. It is very common among CDs, which I sense form the majority of the membership here.

Yes, I did say "TG community" earlier. Sorry it is a habit I've cultivated when referring to the general membership so as to not make anyone feel excluded. But in this particular post, my comments were intended for CDs. I agree that TS children are not submissive. And my impression of TS adults is their female identity has nothing to do with feeling submissive. They don't define it that way since they are women. Most women I know don't consider themselves submissive either.

Please bear in mind that I made a generalization where I believe, based on what I've read, that the majority of CDs will say they feel submissive when dressed. There will certainly be others such as yourself who do not feel this way.

[angpai30]

I think that what it boils down to in society is that men just don't give a damn and that is why it is so easy for women to crossdress without little or no remark. Women are merely implementing the style into their wardrobe, men on the other hand when dressed as a woman aren't trying to implement what they have on into their wardrobe; they are trying to be that which they are not or at least in the view of society.
Skirts have always been worn by men and dresses by women in history, but as time has passed the wardrobe for men has changed drastically because of the consideration of formal presentation and mannerisms that are supposedly interactive with each sex. The same view for any person with any type of fetish still exists as a society we expect the men to indulge in our masculinity and females to indulge in their femininity instead of indulging ourselves in what society deems childish or perverted fantasies. Because we are not acting in the behaviors that society deems appropriate we are immediately set aside as freaks of nature with some kind of mental or pshychological disorder.
We don't have to like eachother, as this diaper guy is on the same boat we are. It is still curteous and well mannered to show respect to those who are different than us. This is why so many of us are still in the closet because we are worried about what society will think and react to what they deem inappropriate behavior. There are many things we all could learn from this diaper guy and the bravery it takes to wear just a diaper and tshirt out, and the kind of man he truly is because of the courage he took to even step out of the door just wearing a diaper and tshirt.
We all have our own individual belief systems as well as lifestyles in which we live by. We all have fetishes even though some would not admit. If anyone has watched the show "Monk" you would realize that just because he has an obsession with perfection that he is still a highly valued member of society. Yet if the president started crossdressing he would most likely be impeached because of
moral standards in which has been set by the public eye. Some of us would vote for his impeachment and some would not. Just like the california ammendment to allow gay marriage. Some of us voted for it and some against it and it all comes down to our beliefs and lifestyles in which we live. If we let this get in the way of our community here then it would only break down this community in which we have worked so dilligently to build and all the friendships that we have forged would only go down the drain. We are all individuals here traveling on the same path, but in reality we are on seperate paths that are similar in nature, but surely different since we are not all the same and live by different standards than the guy next door.
Sorry for the very long vent, but I felt I had to.