Is the lack of GLB support because being transgender isn’t forever? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

pamela_a

12-13-2009, 03:28 PM

Please bear with me, this goes in a couple of directions simultaneously. I’m probably not going to make any friends with this, but when you don’t have many you learn to not let it bother you.

Reading numerous posts and blogs about how the GLB groups always drop the T whenever things get tough got me thinking (bad idea I know). How are transgendered anything like the gay, lesbian, or bi in their "cause" except for their desire to be "accepted" by society?

To begin I think everyone would agree that being gay, lesbian, or bi is a sexual preference. Transgender in and of itself is asexual. Can a transperson be gay, lesbian, or bi? Absolutely, but as far as their being transgendered it's completely irrelevant so we don’t have anything in common there.

Secondly, what is “Transgendered”? I think if you ask 20 different people you will get 21 different answers, all of them similar but not the same. You ask anyone to define gay, lesbian, or bi and you’ll pretty much get the same answer no matter who you talk ask. Again, we are now asking a group of people who can actually define themselves to accept and work with a group of people who cannot.

The third is the basic reason for this post. A person who is born gay or lesbian (possibly bi) is that way their whole life. Whether they act on it or not shouldn’t alter their orientation, they are simply who they are and remain so their entire life. I believe a transperson is different in that regard. At this point I start to suffer from the lack of definition.

For my argument I’m going to narrowly define a transperson as a transsexual or as someone in some stage of the transition process. I know, it’s a pretty narrow definition but who else is really most affected by the same issues that could possibly be a connection to the GLB community? A CD perhaps if they spend any amount of time interacting with the world could be included but I can’t really identify any others. I’m purposely not including drag kings and queens simply because society “understands and accepts” them and doesn’t take them seriously anyway. By definition it’s an act not a lifestyle.

This brings me to my question. Are transpeople always transgendered? I personally believe no. Speaking personally I was transgendered when I was born and while I’m in the process of transitioning I’m even more so. But when I complete my transition my goal and desire is not to be known as a transwoman or a “tranny”. I want to be known, recognized and live my life as a woman; nothing more and nothing less. I won’t wear the “trans” on my sleeve.

Being transgendered is a temporary state not necessarily an end. Are there exceptions? Of course there are exceptions to everything, but it does make me wonder if this is part of the reason Transgender issues seems to be so under supported? The people who are most affected isn’t static. People move in and out of the group most affected, thus perhaps losing the urgency of the issue as their transition progresses and their life changes.

Perhaps this more than anything is a reason we need to be more cognizant of ways we can help. I have no intentions of being an activist but it’s made me more aware of what I can do, the “silent support” so to speak. I think we need to just accept the only help we can expect or count on is us.

sandra-leigh

12-13-2009, 04:04 PM

Some of us are more or less "out" in not fitting into the male / female polarization. That makes us transgendered but not "transpeople" under your definition. I don't expect, though, that at some point I will polarize back into male nor move completely into feeling female: even if I end up living presenting as a female, it seems likely to me that I would continue to internally be a mix.

If you look around the site longer, you will find that there are a fair number of non-op "24/7" members, who do not consider themselves to be fully female, but are more comfortable living on the female side. There aren't as many members who publicly present themselves as a gender mix: society has some idea how to treat "women" and some idea how to treat "men", but it rather flounders at those who are in-between.

Veronica_Jean

12-13-2009, 05:08 PM

Pam,

I have a difficult time understanding your point because I fundamentally disagree that trans is temporary. I know that there is a time before and during transition, which implies a change from one to another. I happen to believe that this is an alignment of our bodies (as best we can) to our self perception. Our self perception is the same and does not change, but the external perception can and often does.

Simply because after transition we no longer feel conflicted, does not mean who and what we are has changed. Clearly we identify with the gender of our presentation, but have we not done that even before? Are we not like the gay, lesbian, and bi people in how we are socially identified and treated?

I read your position as the perspective of how society may view us. We were males (or females), that changed into females (or males). Now that this process is over, we are no longer part of that group.

This may fit until someone gets "outed", or they don't have surgery and they are beaten or killed by a potential boyfriend/girlfriend. They are denied employment because they don't "look" much like the gender of their identity.

My personal experience is that many gay, lesbian and bi people feel they have nothing in common with us. However, look at the way society treats them and the differences quickly dissipate. They have lost their families, job, been beaten and killed, they often are rejected by their religion, and have to hide in order to live in current society.

I think it comes down to a matter of numbers. We are a smaller percentage, and in order to get some gain a compromise is made. It is easier to agree to drop the smaller percentage in order to get political buy in that a compromise was made, rather than have it totally stopped due to no compromise.

I could be wrong, but that is what I think.

Veronica

sempervirens

12-13-2009, 05:20 PM

I think you make a valid point, but a person's status as a transperson isn't necessarily itinerant. The most vulnerable transpeople, those who live in dangerous areas like the not-so-pleasant parts of DC, are the least likely to be able to afford transition and the least likely to have access to online support systems like this. Our more impoverished sisters and brothers, and those of color, are also statistically the most likely to be victims of violence.

Which is to say, some of those who'll never be able to transition yet are unquestionably trans will still face discrimination in the form of violence. I've been discriminated against when I've gone out as far as my treatment by staffpersons, but I've also been discriminated against when I was assaulted with a knife at a club (in SF no less) because I was trans. The latter was scarier. Some in our T community will face violent discrimination for having the courage to be themselves in a world where their options are limited in regards to a transition complete with surgery. We can't forget our most vulnerable members.

Like the FTM's who lack the options we MTF's have with regard to bottom surgery. Or, like above, CD's who live full-time. Or, transpeople who continue to identify as trans after their surgeries, or live out lives. Or, people who choose not to fully transition.

My best guess is that there's a lack of "T" support in the LGB because there are fewer of us and we're less politically powerful. When the LGB community conveniently forgets us when it comes time for legislation, they're making a choice to move forward and secure rights for some at the cost of gambling whether or not all of us will enjoy those rights together. It's a mistake. Our time will come if we fight for it, and we should not make the same mistakes but rather include our more vulnerable members. Until then some of us are viewed as disposable people. At least, I've felt that way.

Kaitlyn Michele

12-13-2009, 06:07 PM

Pam I think you make a good point.

I would add to it and say that our lack of support comes directly from our lack of numbers and therefore lack of money and therefore lack of any political or other kind of power. When you negotiate a "deal", you have some things you are willing to give in on and unfortunately we are it (as it relates to LGBT)..

add to that the distinction you are trying to draw that divides our "T" group even further...if you take out folks that crossdress for pleasure or other reasons, we get smaller...then we get to the whole i'm a woman vs i'm a transwoman vs i'm transperson vs. i'm a third sex debate...its like we're thousands of armies of one

whether we like it or not, if i call myself a transwoman, and you call yourself a woman, then our group just keeps getting smaller and more confusing

the transwoman wants one thing, the woman wants another...it sucks

think of how difficult it is to make the distinction in our very supportive group, and how you might be offending or at least putting off folks that don't share your view........i might totally understand your distinction, but its very difficult for non trans folk to get it, even LGB folks.

Another way to think of it is to answer this question...if you say you are a woman..and that you are permanently a woman and that's it...what exactly are looking for? what support and help are you needing outside of what other women want? one friend that considers herself a woman says "NONE" to that question...and yet she wants insurance to pay for srs, for ffs for breast enhancement..etc...its very confusing and difficult..and the answer is unlikely to be satisfactory to everyone in our group

:sad:

sandra-leigh

12-13-2009, 06:34 PM

My best guess is that there's a lack of "T" support in the LGB because there are fewer of us and we're less politically powerful.

Unfortunately the numbers from surveys are all over the map, so we don't really know if there are fewer of us or not. It depends in part, of course, on who "us" is: does it include "just-for-fun" cross-dressers? cross-dressers who consider themselves to have some gender attributes not traditionally associated with their sex? How far "out" would a cross-dresser have to be to be included? Would the person have to have gone through at least a name change and/or hormones to be included? etc..

I've seen numbers that suggest that cross-dressers (of any sort) are about in in every 20,000 males; I have seen other numbers that suggest that cross-dressers may be as many as 2 in 3. Hard to say what the relative numbers when we haven't really defined what we are talking about.

But Yes, we do appear to be less politically powerful. That might, oddly enough, be due in part to there being more of us: the more common cross-dressing and transgender identity are, the less we have in common to act politically. You can't elect get elected these days on a single issue (as the Marijuana Party found here a few federal elections ago; as the Green Party is working through even though their "one issue" was pretty broad.)

Fab Karen

12-13-2009, 06:58 PM

Number one, get out there. Lesbians, Gays, and some Bi's have. If we don't respect ourselves, how can we expect others to?
Number two, are you supporting them? Speak out, give money to the cause, befriend them.

Leo Lane

12-13-2009, 08:40 PM

I think GLBs can also be a bit worried by us because they see us, paradoxically, as a potential return to the gender binary which has restricted them too. That is, a male-bodied person who feels female inside or vice versa is nonetheless affirming -- in this view; I disagree and I think most of us would -- that there is a 'right' way for a man and a woman to act. Which isn't so great for feminine guys or masculine girls who are happy with their assigned gender; and feminine guys and masculine girls are often gay, and even more often perceived as gay; indeed 'sissyphobia' is at the root of a lot of homophobia.

I find that once we explain ourselves and tell GLBs that we realise gender is a continuum, they tend to relax.

Teri Jean

12-13-2009, 09:33 PM

Cindi Johnson

12-13-2009, 10:09 PM

As for your question, "Are transpeople always transgendered?", I'd say yes. But any discussion is just arguing semantics. I suspect, using the definition of "transgender" per wikipedia, you'll always be TG - before and after transition. Just by definition of the word.

As for GLBT, I agree with others that we are included there because it gives us more clout. They do have the numbers. True, most gays have little in common with us, and us with them, but to "normal" society we are all on the sexual fringes. For "normals", "GLBT" is an easy way of saying "those who aren't like us sexually".

One other point: unfortunately, there's more than a few TG's who denigrate gays, including here on this website, often between the lines. Why should we expect them to accept us when many of us cannot accept them?

As Rodney King said, "Can't we all just get along?"

Cindi Johnson

melimelo

12-14-2009, 01:11 AM

This brings me to my question. Are transpeople always transgendered? I personally believe no.

Being just at the beginning of my RLE, I don't have personal experience in the matter. However, I observed and talked with many other transgender at different stages of their transition (pre-RLE, pre-op, post-op) and typically, the transperson goes through 3 phases:

"Ugly duckling"

Usually, don't pass very well
Relies heavily on support groups
Identifies as transgender

"Beautiful swan"

Comfortable and well integrated in their new gender
Tends to shun support groups and early transitioners
Identifies totally as their new gender

"Birds of a feather"

After some time and maybe some bad experiences, remember that they're not exactly GG/GM
Can attend support groups and help early transitioners with advice
A bit more nuanced in their self-identification

My own belief is that, at some point, we feel great once things start to go smoothly at work, with friends and family, and we don't want to be reminded that we were once "ugly ducklings" ourselves. But then, we cannot always escape reality, nor our past. We are transgender and will remain transgender all our life. At least until the day some scientist comes up with a genetic reprogramming system... Beam me up, Scotty! :heehee:

I hope I'm not boring everyone to death with my analysis... :yawn:

Cheers,

Starling

12-14-2009, 02:36 AM

Movements such as civil rights and gay liberation begin largely in response to blatant discrimination and violence, not out of some generalized desire to be accepted by everyone. That may come later, if the movement is fortunate enough to succeed in securing legal rights and protections for its members, and is largely a matter of persuasion rather than protest.

As long as TG people are subject to discrimination and violence, it doesn't matter how they identify themselves within the rainbow. A post-op transwoman who passes perfectly as a genetic female, and wants only to be routinely be accepted as one, can still be outed--and harmed.

Homo and hetero, MTF and FTM, pre-op, post-op and non-op, fetishistic and lifestyle, androgynous, hermaphroditic, part-time and fulltime--we are all gender and sex preference outliers, no matter how "normal" and "ordinary" we would like our lives to be, and we should recognize that our fates are intertwined.

I'm sorry if I left anyone out, especially during the holiday season. We're all terrific and beautiful. Except for Howard.

:daydreaming: Lallie

Frances

12-14-2009, 11:17 AM

Typically, the transperson goes through 3 phases:

"Ugly duckling"

Usually, don't pass very well
Relies heavily on support groups
Identifies as transgender

"Beautiful swan"

Comfortable and well integrated in their new gender
Tends to shun support groups and early transitioners
Identifies totally as their new gender

"Birds of a feather"

After some time and maybe some bad experiences, remember that they're not exactly GG/GM
Can attend support groups and help early transitioners with advice
A bit more nuanced in their self-identification

That is so right on the money in my experience with navigating the stages and observing others doing it as well.

Lorileah

12-14-2009, 12:40 PM

Fear. That is why we don't get the support from the GLB community (although I don't seem to remember a Bi rights platform). Not fear from them so much, they only fear that TG's will cast a negative image of freaks and perverts back upon them. No more fear from 90% of the people who are some shade of TGism. Fear that they will harm their family or family reputation, community standing, ability to get into heaven. Whatever the fear, the G&L community has fought hard to allay these fears. They show every day that they are constructive and respected members of society. Most here crawl under rocks and moan.
'
So that aside, I disagree that GLB is a sexual thing and TG isn't, there are some here that consider TG as a very and ONLY sexual thing.

The other concern that I have for the OP is that you intend to leave the fight behind when you get what you want. You will no longer consider yourself TS, but you are. You will never (in current medical abilities) have the whole package and most TS's won't have the genetic make up. In today's society many things are determined by DNA. So even if you get all you want you will still be part of the community. That has been stated in other posts here.

Personally, I dislike that we as TG individuals are often singled out for exclusion in political discussions by the straight and gay communities. But we have no one to blame but ourselves. Read through the posts here about how many hide and consider themselves less than human. 40 years ago Gays were treated that way. It was a mental problem. It was a perversion. They have worked to be where they are now. What have we done? We have RuPaul and Eddie Izzard
and the guy who dressed like his mom to get her checks. Another recent thread had notable TS's. We know who most are but the world in general does not because many feel like you do. They got the surgery, now leave us alone. Has anyone heard much lately from our most recent celebrity, Chaz Bono? Great press for a week but now Tiger wins. Being bad sells, being right doesn't

If we want respect we need someone who has status to stand out for us. The TS's do for a short time, but no CD has come out. Unless they do what many here do "I just do this on Halloween"

So Pam, you have more friends here than you think, but you won't keep them if you cut the lines when you have your surgery. You want respect and equality? You have to fight until the war is won.

kellycan27

12-14-2009, 02:51 PM

The way I see it is that there is transitioning and then there is transitioning. I may never be a genetic female, so for all practical intents I will always be transgendered, but only for the purpose if definition. For me personally the first stage was to transition from male to female to a point where I was comfortable living as a female, and able to sustain my lifestyle,ie job,friends,housing etc. The second part of transitioning was adapting to my new lifestyle, and actually being able to function in that capacity. I'll get back to this a bit later. I see my journey as transient, and I believe that others who are transsexual feel the same in as much as we are just "passing through" if you will. Although we may have a lot of the same issues as other members of the LGBT community we are on an altogether different path. Not better or worse,just different. Hopefully one day we will be able to put all of these issues behind s as best we can, and just live our lives as who we feel we are. I think that this transient nature, limits our representative numbers in the LGBT community, which limits our voices, and basically keeps us out of the big picture as to the concerns of the community. Out of sight out of mind kind of thing. While we as transsexuals may always be card carrying members of the LBGT community to perfectly honest .. with our lack of participation,hence our lack voice, puts us a little further down the food chain. Maybe it's our own fault, but our lack of participation and thus our lack of representation, doesn't serve me well. Activism is a great thing, and has done wonders for some groups... No question about it. Someday it may do the same for transsexuals. ( I am not discounting some of the things that we have gained by somewhat aligning ourselves with the LGBT community),but my view of the present reality is that things being as they are, I have to basically go it alone simply for the fact of self preservation. Support groups, as I said are wonderful, but when I shut down my computer or leave the SCC ( or what have you) meetings, I am once again alone. Nobody in the LBGT community is going to hold my hand while I am at work, or while I am out in the mainstream, and I can't run home and change back into my drab clothing if I get scared or feel threatened.
Getting back to functioning in my world.... prejudice and acceptance is everywhere, even amongst ourselves. I have been called elitist, and aloof and have been labeled as a snob, or braggart, boaster, and even a bitch.LOL
How many times have I heard..."it's easy for you to say"? I don't see a lot of difference between a non-passable guy in a dress not being accepted by the mainstream, and someone who can pass suffering in much the same way in the LBGT community. I look at the LBGT community in much the same way that I view mainstream society. I basically have to watch my back in both. If my survival attitude carries over from one group to the the other it's for the purpose of self preservation,rather than being elitist. Someone mentioned "running back to the fol" when someone has a bad experience or gets hurt. This may or may not work, and maybe a temporary fix at best. Bottom line is.. we're pretty much alone, and this is by no means easy to do. I have learned to rely on me and me alone because at the end of the day when I walk in the door and look in that mirror, the only person I see is me.I can't care what they think or what you think, and I don't have time to worry about being hurt or killed, my time is now and I feel that I have to make the most of what time I do have. I can't and won't wait for the world to be a perfect and accepting place. How many have been waiting a lifetime, and are still waiting? :2c:

Kel

Starling

12-14-2009, 03:20 PM

kellycan27

12-14-2009, 03:59 PM

Absolutely, Kel, we're all in this alone, and activism is not for everyone. Nonetheless, regardless of our shade of TG we all share sexual outsider status versus the community at large, and for our own good I think that fact should inform our everyday behavior. There are a number of keen analysts around here, offering many interesting ideas, but in our daily lives maybe we should occasionally take a break from drawing super-fine distinctions between ourselves and just be kinder to each other.

:daydreaming: Lallie

Lallie, I do agree with you to a certain extent, but what would be ideal, and the reality of everyday life are quite different. We are not all the same, and we are dealing with people, and their opinions, and their ego's.

Lorileah

12-14-2009, 04:21 PM

But we make ourselves alone. We put ourselves in this position by assuming that we don't fit in.

Actually I think that TS's are in a better position. Many people assume that TG's are (1 gay and want to be with men and (2 want to be women in body. In many cases both those fit a TS (except they are not gay, they are basically women who want like most women to be with a man). And thus, I believe taht even though many "rights" laws are out there, the people who wrote them wrote them with the image of a TS not a CD. TS's may not associate with the G&L community except early one when they are trying to discern if they are gay guys who prefer women's clothes (no matter how short that thought may be) but then they move on to a different level. Since most gays (and lesbians) have a set limit as to what they want in a partner, being a pre-op TS leaves you out and choices become limited to guys (or girls) with open minds who don't care about parts. So I get that "alone" thing. That does not mean that you should distance yourself from working for equal rights and especially after SRS.

Brooke Smith

12-14-2009, 05:23 PM

kellycan27

12-14-2009, 05:32 PM

By alone I mean that regardless of what group you associate with, by the end of the day it's you that has to face the music. If someone knocks you down,you can turn to your support group, and they may very well pick you up,dust you off and offer some words of encouragement before patting you on the rump and sending you on your way. When you get down to the corner, and that bully is standing there, how is your support group going to help you? You're on your own, and whether you get an ass whoop-in or skate away is going to depend on your own devices. When you attend a tri-ess,Be All,Diva's..whatever, you an feel relatively safe no? How safe do you feel, when on your way home alone and a tire goes flat in the center of mainstream?
I am an activist in my own right.(unintentional as it may be) I am out there everyday 24/7 up close and personal. Work,live, and play 365. A lot of people know about me and a lot of people don't have a clue. Doesn't matter, because I have to live with the choices that I alone made. If I have distanced myself from the LGBT community it is more by happenstance than design. What I am going to say next is probably gonna cook my goose, but it's the God's honest truth.
I am not a cross dresser, gay,lesbian,tg,dual spirit, or whatever, I am to the depth of my heart and soul a woman. I don't feel that pressure that society exerts, I don't worry about being labeled gay or what have you, I don't thimk about my plumbing as a restriction. Hard as it may be for some to understand. I don't have those issues. I am not better or smarter , I am just different. And for all I know someday the walls might just come tumbling down around me, but for now I can only go with what is in my head and my heart. I don't know how else to explain it.
Kel

helenr

12-14-2009, 10:12 PM

great post and so many comments. I think most everything has been stated, but I think it is useful to reflect on the historical problems that 'crossdressing' or its many variants created. At one time it was unlawful to dress in a woman's garb as it was used for criminals to conceal themselves, etc and it became a legal issue. Clearly that should be ancient history, but old stories have a way of hanging about.
I think that the Gays and Lesbians aren't comfortable with us as we are all so different-in my viewpoint. In my (biased) mind most gay men are like tom cats out for sex whenever and whereever they can find it--lots of testosterone driven promiscuous sex by the younger ones. I don't know about Lesbians, think they are pretty monogamous, but dislike us as we want the good stuff that goes with being a female and maybe the good stuff that goes with being a male. Not sure about bisexuals. maybe they think we're weird or don't know what we want.
I have read that many individuals who complete their SRS basically desert this community as when they become passable, they want no associatiion with any who can't-like 'I made it, not looking back'. That is too bad as it doesn't demonstrate the remarkable caterpillar to butterfly transformation that some achieve (in the public's eye).
Maybe it just too many words-most everyone knows the meaning of GLB but not us? so it's very confusing.

sandra-leigh

12-14-2009, 11:20 PM

I have read that many individuals who complete their SRS basically desert this community as when they become passable, they want no associatiion with any who can't-like 'I made it, not looking back'.

One of our local club members tends to talk down about "nay-sayers", people who say "I can't do it"; transitively, she believes that the newsletter should only contain positive stories (or at least stories that have an upbeat ending). "I used to be so shy, now look at me!".

I have encountered a related attitude in some TS's: any discussion of obstacle or impediment is interpreted as trying to talk them out of it or otherwise "getting in their way" -- or as a reminder of things that they have passed (or choose to ignore) and gleefully burnt behind them. Hence, to some TS's, cross-dressers or wanna-be TS's who haven't got everything in place yet, are "downers" or "hooks" that would keep them mired in the past instead of going forward.

I have read of other TS's that "disappear" once their transition is complete, pull up and move somewhere else, with no-one or only very trusted people knowing their new location... either because they consider their previous life a horror that they want to put behind them, or because they don't want to be continually running into people who knew them before and who are thus likely to continue to interpret them as being their former sex. I've heard stories of TS's who marry and never tell their partners that they were once otherwise -- which is something you can't sustain if you are where people knew the previous "you". I think I recall seeing a small number of threads on this site in which the poster mentioned they are considering this kind of "disappearance". And, naturally, hanging around with CD or TG or TS groups would give too obvious a hint (or be too much of a reminder, if they really hated their previous life), so they must also disappear from their transition support network...

The above is summarizing some of what I have encountered; I do not have any individual TS's in mind for any of what I wrote. And it should be understood largely as the hearsay it is: the people I know who have gone through transition while I knew them didn't keep in touch with me much even before they started.

pamela_a

12-15-2009, 12:18 AM

Thank you all, it's been interesting reading everyone's thoughts so far.

This may fit until someone gets "outed", or they don't have surgery and they are beaten or killed by a potential boyfriend/girlfriend. They are denied employment because they don't "look" much like the gender of their identity.

My personal experience is that many gay, lesbian and bi people feel they have nothing in common with us. However, look at the way society treats them and the differences quickly dissipate. They have lost their families, job, been beaten and killed, they often are rejected by their religion, and have to hide in order to live in current society.

The most vulnerable transpeople, those who live in dangerous areas like the not-so-pleasant parts of DC, are the least likely to be able to afford transition and the least likely to have access to online support systems like this. Our more impoverished sisters and brothers, and those of color, are also statistically the most likely to be victims of violence.
I think we can look at many segments of society and say the same things about them. Violence is really no respector of person. Now if ONLY gay, lesbian, bi, or trans people were beaten or killed for no apparent reason, or they were the ONLY one's who had lost jobs, families, etc then I think you would have a valid point. The truth is this happens to people across all socio-economic levels, you just happen to be more sensative to those you fear might affect you most. "But", you say "there are people who are beaten, killed, etc just because they are trans" and you are right. That happens to people others may consider 'different' than them. So what is your solution to that? Laws won't change it or keep it from happening unless you are planning on turning the "Thought Police" loose, people who can arrest you for what you may be thinking.

As long as TG people are subject to discrimination and violence, it doesn't matter how they identify themselves within the rainbow
As opposed to Non TG people who are subjected to discrimination and violence? If a white businessman is robbed and killed it's one thing but if the businessperson happens to be Transgendered then hatred and discrimination against transgendered must be the reason?

Homo and hetero, MTF and FTM, pre-op, post-op and non-op, fetishistic and lifestyle, androgynous, hermaphroditic, part-time and fulltime--we are all gender and sex preference outliers, no matter how "normal" and "ordinary" we would like our lives to be, and we should recognize that our fates are intertwined.
I'm curious. How is my fate intertwined with everyone else? My fate and my life are what I make of it. It is My choices and their consequences I must deal with. No one else can or should make those decisions for me nor should I be held responsible for the consequences of someone else's ( sadly I would that were true). If others make poor decisions it is not my responsibility to fix it. Out of compassion I may assist them but it's not my responsibility. Everyone is responsible for their own life and their own decisions, just like I alone am responsible for mine.

Lallie, I do agree with you to a certain extent, but what would be ideal, and the reality of everyday life are quite different. We are not all the same, and we are dealing with people, and their opinions, and their ego's.

I am an activist in my own right.(unintentional as it may be) I am out there everyday 24/7 up close and personal. Work,live, and play 365. A lot of people know about me and a lot of people don't have a clue. Doesn't matter, because I have to live with the choices that I alone made. If I have distanced myself from the LGBT community it is more by happenstance than design. What I am going to say next is probably gonna cook my goose, but it's the God's honest truth.
I am not a cross dresser, gay,lesbian,tg,dual spirit, or whatever, I am to the depth of my heart and soul a woman. I don't feel that pressure that society exerts, I don't worry about being labeled gay or what have you, I don't thimk about my plumbing as a restriction. Hard as it may be for some to understand. I don't have those issues. I am not better or smarter , I am just different. And for all I know someday the walls might just come tumbling down around me, but for now I can only go with what is in my head and my heart. I don't know how else to explain it.
Kel
Thank you Kelly I understand that completely. You are not alone in feeling that way. Very well put.

I would like to address one thing in particular.
Lorileah's statement
So Pam, you have more friends here than you think, but you won't keep them if you cut the lines when you have your surgery. You want respect and equality? You have to fight until the war is won.
You see I did address that, but I qualified it to some degree
Perhaps this more than anything is a reason we need to be more cognizant of ways we can help. I have no intentions of being an activist but it’s made me more aware of what I can do, the "silent support" so to speak. I think we need to just accept the only help we can expect or count on is us.
I do support and intend to help and support anyone I can. What I think part of the crux of the issue is we have differing ideas what is necessary. You describe it as winning a war yet to me it's not a war. If it is a war then who is the enemy? People who disagree with us? People uneducated about what being transgender is really about? We can't even agree on it ourselves, how can we expect others to understand it?
The other question I have is what do you get if you win? What is the ultimate goal? You talk about hatred and violence against us yet throughout history war has never erradicated hatred and violence. It has supressed it, It has halted the ambitions and plans of people, but it has never stopped hatred or violence. In some cases it has only hardened someone's resolve to hate more because they resent being forced to accept something they refuse to accept.
It's not a war, IMO if it's approached that way it's a lost cause.
YOU CAN'T FORCE PEOPLE TO ACCEPT SOMETHING THEY DON'T WANT TO ACCEPT OR UNDERSTAND.
Excuse me for yelling but I believe that is important. You can't pass a law against it. Sure perhaps they won't do something as overt as they initially planned but it doesn't change the person. If you want to change the person teach them. How? You can teach best by example.
Why does society believe there is something wrong with us? Because we ACT like something is wrong with us. We hide, deny, lie. We are ashamed of who we are yet we expect everyone else to accept and embrace us? Just who are we fooling here people??
Did the civil rights movement really change people's attitudes or just make most of them afraid of the law? Have people really started to change their minds about gays and lesbians or is it again they're just going to look for some way to get around the laws?
Laws don't change minds. Activism may move politiians (if they think it will help them get elected) but most of the time all they do is p**s off the "everyday joe" who's out there busting his butt to survive and all he sees is a bunch of whiners who want to be treated better than him. It's not gonna change his mind one bit toward being more 'accepting and understanding'. If you want to change his mind You have to do it and it's going to be work.
But first you have to learn to accept you for who you are and that IMO is the bottom line. The closet is too big for the few people outside to do much about.

kellycan27

12-15-2009, 01:50 AM

Hi Pam, as I ran through this thread I found I concur with a lot of your observations about GLB and transgendered individuals. The journey Transgendered and transsexuals that has a start point and end point whereas for a sexual orientation it is diffinitive. I for one think that a transsexual such as myself will make the journey to the point where I feel comfortable and the journey will end. When I quit transitioning and therefore can be identied as a woman? I would hope so and yet if something horrible happened to me and they would have to do a DNA test to I dentify me I would come back Male even though I have transitioned and look very much female. So is my transition complete(?), yes but no because you cannot change your DNA as yet.

See you soon sis and we can talk again. Huggs Teri

Technically correct Teri, but I think we all understand that it is not possible to change our DNA. I believe that transitioning as far as humanly possible is more the point. If we throw wild cards into the mix, why bother with any of the labels because technically we are all just people, if we trace gays and lesbians, and bisexuals and ts,tg or what have you, back to their basic biological selves... they are just people no? :strugglin

noeleena

12-15-2009, 06:31 AM

Technically correct Teri, but I think we all understand that it is not possible to change our DNA. I believe that transitioning as far as humanly possible is more the point. If we throw wild cards into the mix, why bother with any of the labels because technically we are all just people, if we trace gays and lesbians, and bisexuals and ts,tg or what have you, back to their basic biological selves... they are just people no? :strugglin
Hi...
Going over the post s i find quite a number here as you say . come in . get what they need & then go .

11 years ago i told Jos i m a woman . there was no computers in our home . nor any info i was on my own .
we have had a computer now for about 3 years . what little info i did get was not much .
Of cause over the last 3 years i have contact with 1000 s of people through our forums . & i have learnt a lot .
I have allso been told of the devision in the trans world . because of many view s as to where people are in thier live s .
this is what i see . not my idear s . i have been with 160 lesbian at a pride week . & got on well with them . oh yea this was strickly women only ... yet i was accpted as a woman . later on we had about 20 gay guy s come up & to join in . there was only one other trans woman there who i knew . & has had s r s .

Now an other group of lesbian of about 7 who knew me . & in thier eye s i was a male . & would not ever accept me as a woman . even tho im a andro . & live as a woman . i did ask why they would not accept me as a woman . arrrrr,,,,,,,,

When i have been accepted as one by over 200 people i know . some as friends . others i meet . & others i know & from our groups i am involved in .

my point here will be . i am out in the community i meet & see 1000 s of people . at many functions . i have been in front of many people & spoken to many in group s . . & have a profile that has shown . who we are as trans people .
The media . t v all of n z.. papers . & the net .just google my name . & i have people tell me . that what i have done is being there . & letting other s know . that we do have concerns . & can be a part of the communitys we live in . with out being rejected . on mass . yes there are some who have a lot of detail & dont get accepted . like many other s . who are just . normal people . for what ever reason .

Now haveing said this i could just go . & live with in our community s with out a by or leave . & say nothing . & be accepted . with out any thing being said .
I v been accepted as a woman . so should i ..........so what does this say . will I ....
or when will i .....is the ?? ....

I thought about it when i was .trying to write post s . & not being accepted by some who said they did not under stand what the hell i was talking about ,
one word ,,dyslexia.. it s taken me 3 years . to learn how to write & then i miss it some times .
yet . i am happy to stay . & tell others . about us so that they can accept us & get to know who we are .. does this count .
I deal with many people . yet i dont see any one now even bothering with what ..who . or why are you the way you are .... its hey lets get on with what we are ment to be doing .
There is no as being said here in our discusion a difference between .. i dont like useing the lables ... oh well c d.s.. t s..b i ..l ..g & so on . i see people . who are different . & just accept who they are . for who they are .
Am i nieve. or am i just seeing people . & thats what my friends see . a person . just me ..
.i thought. what we are trying to do is be accepted . do we need lobby groups to tell others what they must accept . ?? or just be out there & live ..
I have done just that . & been accepted . mind you i never thought i would . well i v proved you can . & i had other people help me . they did it because ...they ... wonted to .

..... noeleena.....

Veronica_Jean

12-15-2009, 07:47 AM

Pam,

I think we can look at many segments of society and say the same things about them. Violence is really no respector of person. Now if ONLY gay, lesbian, bi, or trans people were beaten or killed for no apparent reason, or they were the ONLY one's who had lost jobs, families, etc then I think you would have a valid point. The truth is this happens to people across all socio-economic levels, you just happen to be more sensative to those you fear might affect you most. "But", you say "there are people who are beaten, killed, etc just because they are trans" and you are right. That happens to people others may consider 'different' than them. So what is your solution to that? Laws won't change it or keep it from happening unless you are planning on turning the "Thought Police" loose, people who can arrest you for what you may be thinking.

The point I was making is that completing transition does not change our past, or how we are sometimes treated because of it. Completing transition does not change the fact that I am the father of three children, I was married twice to women, and that for most of my 54 years lived and worked as a man. So I do not see being a transperson as a transient thing that changes when transition is over.

I should not be treated differently when I have skills equal or better than another for a job, when I need to pee in a public restroom, try on clothes that I intent to buy and wear, walk down the road minding my own business. But today I have to fear being arrested for using the women's room, or losing my job for wearing a dress and heels to work, just because I may not fit the criteria for being a female based on the ideals of someone else. This is not being sensitive to issues I fear could affect me most that cross all social-economic groups.

Murder is obviously wrong, but since laws don't stop it should we not have laws against murder? Is it justifiable for a man to beat a woman because he found out she was born in a male body? We are not going to change prejudice through law, but we can cause those that use their prejudice to justify improper behavior to suffer the consequences that otherwise they may not.

Today many blacks in the US are still not treated equally or properly, but they do not have to fear being arrested for using a drinking fountain, bathroom, or sitting anywhere on public transportation. It was laws that changed this, not the acceptance of society.

I have no illusion that laws will protect me. I do feel that they are necessary when the actions of others cross the line and they provide a vehicle to follow for action that is acceptable in our society.

Veronica

Jenny Chen

12-15-2009, 02:59 PM

Yes you are right, laws can't fix anything but realize if and when a law has to be put in place it's time to move on to a different country. I mean yes a law will prevent the majority of the harassment, relatively harmless harassment, but the law would also bring out the extreme in Anti-TGBL. So if and when we require a half ass law to protect us, we have lost the battle.

When you take away some one's avenue to vent, frustration will build and eventually become dangerous, thus the KKK is born. Of course I am not saying that harassment is right but for the future generation we have to endure it, after all we are paving the road to understanding and acceptance so lets not let some law screw it up.If History has taught us anything it's that acceptance and change takes time, if you try to rush it you end up with violence.

We are at a cross road right now, Most +50% of people will openly tolerate TGLB, which has come a long way from way back when, so the only thing we have left to do is educate all the hick's in the bible belt that; though it may contain some good moral values, the bible is nothing but a work of fiction. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying or at lest didn't mean to pick on religion here, but the fact is that religion is the main driving force behind the Anti-TGBL movement. Though in the end all people care about is the justifiable cause; where as murder is openly and socially accepted as wrong so there is not really anyway to justify it, on the other hand the prejudice against TGLB can, and this is where religions are once again use as a fuel for unjust act of hatred.

Their main argument being that we are not natural, or we are desecrating the creating of god; ourselves. But it has been proven that homosexuality exist in nature, we have observable prove and studies on homosexuality in Chimp and Dolphin populations. So really when it comes down to it, it's just unjustifiable fear of the TGLB community and from it arise prejudice.

So lets hold our head high and walk our path less traveled by, we are among the great pioneers that come before us, who set the foundation for the path, so now it's our turn to pave the road for the future generation after all the great wall of China isn't built in one day.

kellycan27

12-15-2009, 03:06 PM

I have encountered a related attitude in some TS's: any discussion of obstacle or impediment is interpreted as trying to talk them out of it or otherwise "getting in their way" -- or as a reminder of things that they have passed (or choose to ignore) and gleefully burnt behind them. Hence, to some TS's, cross-dressers or wanna-be TS's who haven't got everything in place yet, are "downers" or "hooks" that would keep them mired in the past instead of going forward.

Maybe because for most of our lives people have been saying.. No you can't.
Would you like to re-visit painful and traumatic times from your past? There is no "ignoring" nor can I "choose" to forget...gleefully or otherwise. It's always there, sometimes just under the surface, and sometimes it erupts. Some of us have reached a point where we are able to function, and comfortable with what we have accomplished, but we aren't super humans that can't be affected by our past. I have discovered that you can't help everyone, some only hear what they want, and some want nothing more than some body to vent to. And some aren't happy until they make you unhappy as well. I am not a therapist and I can't be around 24/7 to hold their hand. Words of encouragement and $3.00 will buy you a cup of coffee. So yes, thses people who I truly love and care about can be "downers" and they can drag me back to ugly times in my own life, and yes, it hurts me, and yes I get tired of hearing it, so..........sue me.

sandra-leigh

12-15-2009, 07:36 PM

Would you like to re-visit painful and traumatic times from your past? There is no "ignoring" nor can I "choose" to forget...gleefully or otherwise.

Gist of a discussion a while ago (not here):

Honourable Transitioning Member, addressing a cross=dressing social club: Today I did <X>, which cut 8 months from my transition time; now tell me how wonderful I am.

Several Members: We would not feel comfortable doing that: it is unethical and illegal!

Honourable Transitioning Member: If you aren't 120% behind me in everything I do, then sit down and shut up and don't get in my way! It is people just like you who have been been the millstone around my neck, trying to hold me back. The law is for other people, not for me: any law that gets in the way of me transitioning right now is an unjust law and deserves to be broken! The only time you are permitted to mention obstacles to this club is when I ask about them, in which case you are to respond within half an hour telling me exactly who I have to yell at, bribe, or lie to, to have the obstacle removed; if you don't do things my way on my schedule, then you are my enemy!

The above is not word-for-word, of course, but the situation did occur substantially as per the above. It led to a substantial rift within the club, with a number of those who felt that "the ends justified the means" talking about expelling the people who critized that perspective.

pamela_a

12-15-2009, 09:12 PM

The above is not word-for-word, of course, but the situation did occur substantially as per the above. It led to a substantial rift within the club, with a number of those who felt that "the ends justified the means" talking about expelling the people who critized that perspective
And the point is? I'm sorry but you could have been just as easily talking about a politician, laywer, clergy, business person, or anyone else in the world that wanted something. That response isn't a Trans response it's the person who is saying it. Period, end of discussion. The only thing that has to do with being trans was the person was transitioning. I understand it's easy to do but please don't attribute everything a person says or does or everything that happens to them in life as a direct result of them being TG. The world is far larger and people are more complex than that

sandra-leigh

12-16-2009, 12:58 AM

And the point is? I'm sorry but you could have been just as easily talking about a politician, laywer, clergy, business person, or anyone else in the world that wanted something. That response isn't a Trans response it's the person who is saying it. Period, end of discussion.

"Period, end of discussion." is a "controlling phrase" -- an attempt to control what others will or will not do or think. In my opinion, it is not an appropriate phrase to use in a forum such as this one (other than perhaps by a mod/admin emphasizing a statement of site policy.) You might perhaps be able to change my opinion on this point... but naturally it would require "discussion" to do so.

And the point is?

kellycan27 had said 'There is no "ignoring" nor can I "choose" to forget...gleefully or otherwise.' The latter part of the sentence refers specifically to her ('nor can I'), but the first part of the sentence 'There is no "ignoring"' is not so qualified, and thus made a statement about all TS's. In response I outlined a situation I knew of in which a TS chose to ignore that which was inconvenient to them (morals, ethics, the law) -- and in which a number of other people (a mix of CD-ers, and TSs at various stages in transition) agreed strongly enough that those things should be ignored that they proposed to eject anyone who expressed a moderate or ethical view.

In logic, the existence of even a single item matching a criteria is enough to establish the truth of the proposition that "there exist some items that match this criteria"; I was thereby establishing the logical truth of the statement that Kelly was denying by saying 'There is no "ignoring"'.

Perhaps it would have been better if I had spelt out the logic involved, possibly with some links to wikipedia or some specific citations to logic textbooks; e.g., Herbert Enderton's "A Mathematical Introduction to Logic (http://www.math.ucla.edu/~hbe/amil/)" (either edition) would have been appropriate. Unfortunately, I was, at the time of my posting, accessing the forum through a text-only web browser with approximately a 35-character wide window for entering my comments, with no "copy and paste" facility, and it was thus not practical to expand or annotate in the time I had available.

The only thing that has to do with being trans was the person was transitioning. I understand it's easy to do but please don't attribute everything a person says or does or everything that happens to them in life as a direct result of them being TG.

I believe that if you will review what I wrote, you will find that I made no claim of causality, no claim that anyone was any particular way because they were TG or TS. I listed several different categories in the posting Kelly replied to. When one enumerates cases or categories of something (e.g., transsexual persons), unless one specifically expresses otherwise, one is not making a statement that membership in that something [U]causes[/I] the categories, only that the categories have been observed (or deduced, as appropriate).

If I had written that "I have met non-smoking teachers. I have met teachers who smoked black pipes", would you have interpreted that as indicating that I believed that those teachers smoked black pipes because they were teachers?? I have also met non-teachers who smoked black pipes. Teachers and non-teachers alike: the black-pipe smokers that I met subsequently died of lung cancer. (Now there is an example of a situation in which causality could legitimately be implicitly deduced.)

Heck, I even pointed out specifically that some of what I wrote should be considered hearsay. I am at a loss as to what it is that I wrote that you believe indicated I was attributing causality to the categories.

Andi

12-16-2009, 02:25 AM

Who added the "T" to the "LGB" grouping? How did that come about? We were never included or considered for a long time and it sounds like we still aren't in reality. Even now congress conscientiously excludes "T's" in their legislative efforts. We even fight among ourselves. Doesn't anyone want to help us??

pamela_a

12-16-2009, 10:53 AM

Sandra. I do owe you an apology. Note to self...don't post a reply when you're mad at someone else for something completely unrelated.

Lorileah

12-16-2009, 11:21 AM

Doesn't anyone want to help us??

nope, not even the people involved. You cannot get help when you make yourself invisible and perpetuate false stereotypes for your cause, even if they are just in your own mind. Until more people stand up for TGs, no one will think we need help.

We are a diverse group but in most non-TG minds we are , clowns, criminals or want to have surgery to be women (one positive stereotype anyway). IF we can at least latch on to the "gay" tag we can get some coverage from them but notice the 100's here who start each post by saying "I'm not gay but..." Part of the reason we are dropped from G&L cause is we work hard to physically distance ourselves from them. Hard to ask for help when you show contempt for who you are asking help from.

It all starts with us. We have to accept us and then work on having others accept us. To stay with the gay analogy, they worked to get mainstream gays to "come out". Gay actors, writers, artists, public figures and even gay politicians (Did anyone see that the mayor of the third largest city in the US is lesbian? of course the mayor of Portland came out long ago). As I said before TS people come out, but then they fade away. Rupaul and Eddie Izzard are comics but they don't push for rights. Rudy Gulliani? His foray into CD was played off as a joke...Thanks Rudy, that helped a whole bunch.

Half the people here don't even show their families. How can you get help?

I don't blame the G&L community for leaving us behind (that is not the same as saying they don't take us in to their businesses) in political areas. They worked hard (over 40 years) to get the little respect they have. They would support us more if we didn't try and distance ourselves from them and then beg to be included and if we would help stand up for the rights of all people.

Notice that I have left off Bi's. I don't see them as a political force who is discriminated against. I don't think I ever saw a story about someone losing a job because they were Bi (unless it was a sexual harassment thing) or not getting a loan. In fact, especially on the female side, it is often turned into a "good" thing when males are hiring

Starling

12-16-2009, 04:19 PM

There's so much great stuff in this thread, including the idea that emotions, attitudes and behavior do evolve. Whether or not strict, new civil rights laws made people "suddenly" more racially tolerant, after years of mandated proximity with other races and cultures a generation of American kids has grown up largely color-blind.

I see no reason to believe that enforcing laws forbidding employment and public accomodation discrimination against TG persons, resulting in greater mainstream contact and communication with us, will not eventually produce a similar result. We all began as a single cell, to echo Kel.

And as for our own attitudes, we are more flexible than we think. I don't believe I'm attracted to men, because I've not experienced the reliable physical signs of attraction, but if I had HRT and SRS--or just encountered the Right Man--who knows? One hopes that exposure to living, breathing gay people, many of whom are actually quite pleasant :heehee:, will influence the less accepting among us to loosen up and enjoy life more.

Lallie

Rianna Humble

12-16-2009, 05:49 PM

Everyone is responsible for their own life and their own decisions, just like I alone am responsible for mine.

Are you sure your boy-name isn't Cain?

There is a view that there is no such thing as Socity only individual's rights.

There is an opposing view that supports the fable of the Good Samaritan.

Good for you if you find your personal Holy Grail, but it will be a shame on you if finding it makes you abandon those who need your support in their quest.

As others have said, you may no longer wish to be known as Transsexual once you have attained your goal, but that will not stop you being transgendered.

kellycan27

12-16-2009, 07:22 PM

Are you sure your boy-name isn't Cain?

There is a view that there is no such thing as Socity only individual's rights.

There is an opposing view that supports the fable of the Good Samaritan.

Good for you if you find your personal Holy Grail, but it will be a shame on you if finding it makes you abandon those who need your support in their quest.

As others have said, you may no longer wish to be known as Transsexual once you have attained your goal, but that will not stop you being transgendered.

I am a good Samaritan, and I also believe in individual rights. Maybe individual responsibility might be a better way of putting it. As I mentioned before, I am out there everyday, an unofficial or unintentional ambassador if you will, for the entire LGBT community. There are a lot of people who talk a lot of s**t about what I should do for my fellow (everything over under the sky), but what the heck are they doing beside worrying about their own personal safety? Laws against violence and discrimination are all good and great, but after reading a million "acceptance" threads I have a pretty good idea that even if granted these so called rights, personal fear will still prevail over most
of you. I for one am not waiting for this utopia that so many of you seem to be banking on. If you want to walk down the street beside me, I will watch your back, but if you just want to hide yourself and piss and moan about how unfair it all is, and complain that I should be helping you.. you have another thing coming. First you want to blame society for not accepting you, then you want to blame the LGB community for for not acknowledging you, and now you want to blame me for not supporting you. You people need to grow a set and become proactive, and stop blaming everyone under the sun because you're scared, or because you want some kind of guarantee that you are not going to be harmed or fired or lose your friends and family.
One closing thought in regards to the LGB community. 85% of you claim to be be straight, and how many " I am not gay" proclamations do we constantly see in these threads. Whether it be a statement of fact ( I am not gay, and have nothing against the gay s) or whether you have a problem with gays or even just the fact that you don't want people to think you are gay. Innocent as it may seem, it still sounds like an attempt to distance yourselves from the gay community. Wouldn't it stand to reason that the gay community may say... We are not cross dressers or transsexuals ,and if they don't want to be associated with us why should we associate ourselves with them? Can you blame them?On second thought, I guess some of you could:heehee:

Kelly

sempervirens

12-16-2009, 08:17 PM

I think we can look at many segments of society and say the same things about them.
Transgender persons face a higher rate of murder than nearly all other minority groups. According to the SLPC when transpeople are killed, they are more likely to be killed in a gruesome, personal fashion (fewer shootings, more knifings and beatings). That is, the attacks are in your face, and personal.

Now if ONLY gay, lesbian, bi, or trans people were beaten or killed for no apparent reason, or they were the ONLY one's who had lost jobs, families, etc then I think you would have a valid point.
I think it's important to point out that the violence facing transpeople is disproportionate to our numbers. Further, rates of violence are higher in lower socio-economic brackets. Further, those with the least money/fewest resources are those who will find it most difficult to transition, and for whom it may take the longest. In the end, you have the people who can't or are slow to transition who're disproportionately likely to suffer violence as they're both poor and trans. They shouldn't be forgotten. Heck, our most vulnerable members were the backbone of Stonewall, and say what you will, we wouldn't be here without it.

The question was whether we receive less support from the LBG community because we can transition and need not always identify as trans. My point is only that that's not true for all of us, since not all of us are transitioning, and that those who aren't might need a disproportionate amount of support.

The truth is this happens to people across all socio-economic levels, you just happen to be more sensative to those you fear might affect you most.
My point is only that it doesn't happen equally across the board. It's admittedly a simple point that generally goes without saying. I'm not sure what you mean about those I "fear might affect [me] most." I've lived on both sides of the track-- growing up in a slum-- and now attending an Ivy League school on fellowship. Maybe because I've lived it I'm more sensitive to it, but I think (in a non-condescending/nobless oblige way) it's morally incumbent on us to help our brothers and sisters in whatever small way we can. We're blessed to be at home in front of a computer tonight in our homes, whether that's due to our hard-work, providence, or whatever we choose to believe. It's just my opinion, and I'm totally comfortable with being wrong, I'm really used to that :-).

So what is your solution to that? Laws won't change it or keep it from happening unless you are planning on turning the "Thought Police" loose, people who can arrest you for what you may be thinking.
First, states that have codified hate crime laws have seen a drop in hate crime violence not mimiced in states that have not taken similar steps. So, there's some signaling that the creation of these laws is at least correlated with a decrease in violence. That's something.

As opposed to Non TG people who are subjected to discrimination and violence? If a white businessman is robbed and killed it's one thing but if the businessperson happens to be Transgendered then hatred and discrimination against transgendered must be the reason?
Not every transperson killed is a victim of a hate crime, you're right. Here's a definition, courtesy of Wikipedia: "Hate crimes (also known as bias-motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group, usually defined by racial group, religion, sexual orientation, disability, ethnicity, nationality, age, gender, gender identity, or political affiliation." Unless the transperson was the victim of a crime because they are trans, it's not a hate crime. Actually prosecuting a hate crime case is notoriously difficult, but at least Obama recently signed a law that includes gender identity as a protected category.

My fate and my life are what I make of it. It is My choices and their consequences I must deal with. No one else can or should make those decisions for me nor should I be held responsible for the consequences of someone else's ( sadly I would that were true).
While I don't agree, I think this is a tenable position.

If it is a war then who is the enemy? People who disagree with us? People uneducated about what being transgender is really about?

I'd say the war in this case is for tolerance, acceptance, or a minimization of transphobia and the accompanying discrimination and violence. The people aren't the problem, their actions are. In terms of the classical conception of attitudes, values, and beliefs, we're not going to change core values, but so long as we can change attitudes and outputs (i.e. lessened violence), I'd call that winning.

You talk about hatred and violence against us yet throughout history war has never erradicated hatred and violence. It has supressed it, It has halted the ambitions and plans of people, but it has never stopped hatred or violence.
Looking to similar battles for rights in the past, it'd be true to say that it'd be silly to measure success in absolute terms of zero discrimination or zero violence. On the other hand, you can't say the groups who've stood up for their rights haven't been better off in relative terms.

Excuse me for yelling but I believe that is important. You can't pass a law against it. Sure perhaps they won't do something as overt as they initially planned but it doesn't change the person. If you want to change the person teach them. How? You can teach best by example.
The goal isn't to change their core values, it's to end discrimination, and I agree that serving as models, ourselves, is important.

Why does society believe there is something wrong with us? Because we ACT like something is wrong with us.
I'd agree that this is a part of it.

...whiners who want to be treated better than him.
We're asking for equal treatment. That's not unreasonable.

It's not gonna change his mind one bit toward being more 'accepting and understanding'.
So long as there isn't discrimination or violence, I'd chalk it up as a win. If you can't get on board on principle, at least get on board because you'd rather not face a discrimination lawsuit, etc. I don't think the attitude should be this adversarial, but at the end of the day, demanding equal treatment simply isn't asking too much, IMO.

Really I agree with the essence of much of what you've said, and I understand not all of this was in response to what I'd written. And, as always, my POV is only that, so here's my :2c:. Have a good night :).

Kaitlyn Michele

12-17-2009, 09:49 AM

Kelly's comment on the "I'm not gay threads" is SOOOO true...i have read this many times here, and i see it ALL THE TIME in coming out letters to family..this really p***** me off and I think it's very hypocritical..

wouldnt it be nice if our beloved personal rights and responsibilities were all that mattered.....but that has never ever been the way humans behaved...we have always banded together to collectively improve our quality of like (or at least try)..

i want the benefits of that improved quality of life especially from a standpoint of safety and financial security.

we need friends, we need touches (ie we need to meet folks that get to know us and understand us), we need them to defend us when we are not there which will only happen if they know and respect us...

we need to be included in all those benefits of society rather than excluded and that will never happen from a soapbox... we are not included right now...case by case we have successful ts folks but in general, its a very very hard road in every way

its true that laws will not change peoples minds, however, those very laws can significantly help us to get out there and have those neccessary friends and touches without fear of being beat up at the subway, or fired just because we are ts...maybe someday it will help us get insurance...etc.etc.

you have to start somewhere and break the cycle...you do not have to be an activist, or a public figure...however you can go out and make yourself proud every single day and get people's acceptance one by one...laws that protect you from harm can only help you do this.

going on and on about other folks won't do s***