Straight guys and transsexual women... [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

KaraChristine

12-18-2009, 03:06 PM

This may be a stupid question or have been beaten to death, but it's something that comes up for me over and over since the transition. Why does it seem like so many straight guys have such a hangup about dating post op transgender women?

I've always been attracted to men physically, and at the same time always known I was female, despite the shape of my genitals at birth. Now that I'm post op, I find myself wondering why so many straight-identified guys have such a problem with transgender women.

I look in the mirror and see a person with 36D breasts and a vagina. If a guy was gay, he wouldn't be interested in this female person - so why do straight guys so often freak out when they find out that this female has a trans history?

I'm asking specifically because I have been in this situation a lot lately. When I meet guys or they contact me online they are interested and complimentary at first ("you're so hot and beautiful baby") then very often when I tell them I'm trans or when they read my online profile then I get, "Oh sorry, saw that you're transgender, no offense but I'm straight." I'm dating someone and I don't need or want their validation, but why go out of your way to inform me that you don't consider dating me to be a heterosexual activity??

I feel like saying why would a gay guy be attracted to someone like me?:

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp146/karachristine/bikinicopy.jpg

wouldn't they rather be attracted to someone who looks like this?:

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumb_232/1201990622SPTYsu.jpg

I know that a lot of the trans women on this forum identified as "straight men" pre-transition so maybe you all might have more perspective on this issue that perplexes me. :battingeyelashes:

karen68

12-18-2009, 03:17 PM

Kara, well I for one would love to date you, if you were free, you are a very attractive girl, I have no problems in dating a post op transgender, if I was attracted to her, as I would a natural born girl. I add however, I would not date a man, and class myself a straight, and as you say you are in every way a female.:hugs:

joannemarie barker

12-18-2009, 03:50 PM

i would find you very dateable although i'm not best placed to give an opinion cos i would date some of the girls here regardless of whats in their underwear :)

Frances

12-18-2009, 03:53 PM

They are afraid of feeling gay (they are homophobic) and have a hard time seeing transsexual women as women.

An ex-friend implored me the other to tell men that I was trans after my surgery, so they would not be tricked into having sex with a man. That was one of the most underhanding dismissal of my gender identity that I ever faced. I was deeply hurt. Regardless how well I passed or feminine I was, in his eyes, it was very important that everyone know my status to stay clear of me. He also said that only gay men would be interested in me, which is very perplexing as you pointed out.

I met a nice man a while ago who did not know that I was trans. When he found out, he was taken aback, but he eventually came around to it. If I had my surgery, I am not sure I would tell everyone. Probably only the ones I cared about and with whom I wanted to have a relationship.

Katelyn

12-18-2009, 04:13 PM

I have to agree with Caroline. they don't care about our minds being female or what we do to our bodies to look attractive. In their minds they believe that if we're not born naturally with female genetalia, we are not women and that thought disgusts them. Also, I think most people believe that we are gay men who can't accept that fact so we become women to be with a man. No matter what it may be, it's nearly impossible to change the mind of someone who is closed minded.

Brooke Smith

12-18-2009, 04:13 PM

Hi Kara,
I think it's admirable that you tell guys that you are trans, but I don't think that needs to be the first thing out of your mouth. You are a very attractive woman and should be able to enjoy the company of men,should you choose to,without giving your complete history the moment you meet someone. If you hit it off and wish to have a relationship then that might be a more appropriate time. You should be free to enjoy many casual relationships without full disclosure.

Lorileah

12-18-2009, 04:16 PM

My guess was the men aren't the brightest light in the string (had to throw in a holiday reference).

Do you have some sort of full discloser sheet that you hand out when you meet guys? Can't imagine that when you are out guys look at you and say...yep..it's a dude. You know everything you have now is all custom made female. But should you tell them right away? I wouldn't (and thus I have now joined the ranks of the TG's here who say it is better to keep it a secret..in this case I agree).

When most guys hear the word transsexual they jump immediately to that last inane teen movie they saw where the guy was all hot and into it only to find that the "girl" had extra parts (insert thousands of immature pubescent boys laughing hysterically in the theater because they KNEW all along:brolleyes:). So when (if) you come clean early these now (supposedly) mature guys flash on the "I'm not gay" sign.
Like I said, 10 watt thinking. So my thought is, don't tell until it is time to tell. If he dumps you after several dates because of this irrational fear, he wasn't for you to start with.

You are a very lovely woman, you will find someone I am sure and he will be the knight on a white charger you are looking for.

:hugs:

Emily01

12-18-2009, 04:24 PM

just crap they've deposited between their ears where ego lives side-by-side with inferiority complex.......you know years ago i was in a gay nightclub with some guys and gals having a wonderful disco-fever night and i noticed a gorgeous woman sitting off by herself having a drink. i approached her and asked if she would like to dance.......when she replied "no thanks".....well, let's just say she's probably a member here or somewhere like this. i left her to her devices but i will always regret not pursuing the issue and making her comfortable with the idea and perhaps having made a CD friend for the first time. it was my loss and so it is for the guys who's ego's force them to R-U-N-N O-F-T!

Faith_G

12-18-2009, 04:54 PM

It's one of two reasons: Either they don't understand that you ARE a woman in every sense, which makes them think dating you makes them gay. Or they are afraid other people will think they are gay.

So they are either ignorant or cowardly, and either way they are not worthy of you.

Keep your head up and be proud of being a woman with no adjectives in front. Once YOU decide that a guy is worth keeping around, then you should tell him and see what happens. Don't tell him in a quiet secluded spot where you can't escape or defend yourself - too many women have been beaten to death already.

That's my eventual plan anyway. I hope I look half as good as you when that time comes.

kellycan27

12-18-2009, 05:28 PM

Don't give up hope, there are open minded guys out there. I am pre-op and engaged to the most wonderful "straight" guy in the world. It took him a while to get his head around what I was and what I was going through. He loves the person, not what's between my legs. :hugs:

Kelly

We aren't planning on getting married until after I have had my SRS, but more by happenstance than design. it's not a prerequisite for either of us, but I would ike to wait just the same.

sherri52

12-18-2009, 06:05 PM

This is why cd's have trouble as well. "Straight men" as the public percieves tham are very narrow minded. They do not like anything out of the normal. If you can't find a man where you live Kara, Give me a call. I'm 57 and i am a crossdresser, if you can deal with that.:love:

Karen564

12-18-2009, 07:56 PM

Kara,

I agree with Kel, and she has a Great guy, and there's more of them somewhere, where, I don't have a clue, but they are..and I'm still trying to get her to share him with me, but she ain't going for that for some reason..LOL

I know what you mean, I've had the same experience, they come on hot to trot, I can tell they don't know about me, so I tell them...I think it puts them into Shock or something....then thats usually the last I hear from them, but they are always very nice about it, well at least so far they have..but they are typical males I guess, all they see is the pictures of me, but don't bother to read my profile info about myself, which I spell it all out there plain as day...I cant be any more open or clear about it...
In up close encounters, I do tell them, especialy since I'm not postop yet, just don't want them freaking out by any surprises..

But I think I will still tell them before any intimacy even when I am postop, just that I feel obligated to tell them just so they know who I am & what I'm all about, I want them to like me for being me, not some illusion, and put my cards on the table right away, and give them that choice to stay or walk by their own free will, otherwise I just would feel like I'm lying & dirty, and that doesn't sit well with me, and would feel terrible about it after if I did...I figured I did enough lying to myself & everyone around me all my life by not telling them what I really was inside, so I don't want to fall into that lying trap again like before...but I really cant say for sure until I cross that bridge until I am postop.. so we'll see, but I don't think I'll change that much, my body may change some more, but I'll still me inside..cant change that, nor do I ever want to, I'm happy being a nice girl..but I do want to be a little naughty too...lol

My latest encounter was with a guy from Australia, but I didn't know where he was from at the time, he was just a straight8 guy, not a cder or anyting like that, so he started up a chat with me late one night on facebook, actually, I had added him as a friend before, but didn't remember that at the time either, so he comes onto me like no tomorrow, he got very sexual after 5 minutes of chatting, he said he was looking for a good woman like me to settle down with, and asked if I was dating or in a relationship, I told him I wasn't involved & single, but had 2 teenage daughters in my life to take care of............I think he wanted to do me right there on the spot....lol, then I could tell by the way he was talking that he didn't know about me being TS...so I asked him about how he feels about man made P...sy......and then the pause................ then he came back, but he still didn't really get what I was saying, and then it got to the point where I had to spell it out to him.....he came back with , you mean your TS??, & I'm like huh huh......and he's says, No Way!!, he didn't believe me, and I'm like, why would I lie about that!!!, then another long pause.................then he says he's a straight guy, and only like the real thing, so I told him that the ops are so good now that he wouldn't be able to tell the difference even with the lights on....lol
He's like really???. and I said yeah, really!!!, and you may like it even better...since you told me you like it tight....lol
then more, bla bla bla.....
Anyway, our conversation lasted for over 2hrs talking about it...I told him I cant wait and have lots of time to make up for....lol, then he ask if I would wear stockings & stilettos in bed for him during the act, and I said, whatever my man wants, I will be glad to please him in every way & be more woman than he can handle....He said he likes that a lot..and me, So looks like I have a date if I ever go to Alstrailia!!!.....lol by the time we were done, think I converted him over ....:lol2:
Anyway, thats the very short version.... :)
I told Kellycan about this one, we both enjoyed it...right Kel?....lol

Point being, they are out there!!!, but would be nice if they where a little closer to home......lol
:hugs:

AllieSF

12-18-2009, 10:15 PM

I think that some people might want to be associated with someone, however their being on or over the edge of the typical "normal" male or female persona scares them away. They think that now they have to not only deal with the usual relationship issues, but also the "what will others think if and when they find out" issues. It is the fear of other's opinions that prevents them from doing what they really want to do. It has happened and probably still happens with interracial marriages, gay relationships with straight people (non-amorous ones), inter-cultural and inter-religious marriages/relationships, and any other types where other's peer pressure overrides just being and doing what one thinks is best. Unfortunately, just like us trying to come out and be accepted, these potential partners find out that they also need to go through a similar situation. I think you can see that from some of the comments on this forum where SO's, family and friends are afraid what others may think when they find out that their partner, friend or loved one is something else than they originally perceived or they had known, not how much they really care for the person.

It is tough out there and as Kelly has said, they are out there, but just harder to find. Good luck. I may need that same luck someday (I HOPE!).

Hope

12-18-2009, 10:17 PM

It's homophobia, and an uneasy awareness of their own homoerotic tendencies, that they try very hard to keep under wraps. They are afraid that if they are attracted to a girl who used to be a guy, that it will be the first step in the homosexual reeducation camp... and they know (though they will never admit) that they sort of like the look of guys in the shower all ready ... but it is wrong, so wrong... and so, they have to come up with some sort of pretext for you, and probably for themselves as well, that will justify their rejection of you. It's BS.

Just be glad these self-loathing fire hazards are self identifying - it makes it easier to avoid them!

kym

12-18-2009, 11:03 PM

honestly, if we were to meet and both of us were single, i would not care what you used to be i would however love to show you off to any one and every one. Most men are preprogrammed to think "one a guy always a guy" which is sad if you ask me.

dilane

12-18-2009, 11:38 PM

I can attest that they're out there -- nice, typically masculine guys who have no problem being with a T-girl, or who, after a little thinking come around.

However, it's a minority of guys who are like that.

I remember one guy asked me out after chatting me up for awhile, and I told him I was a TS, and he stopped cold for a second, then said "You know, I think I could deal with that", then gave me his number (which I didn't call since I don't mess around on the side). As I left, he said "Can I give you a hug?" I indulged him...

-- Diane

Aubrey Green

12-18-2009, 11:44 PM

Gotta believe it is strictly in the head. I am sure you have no trouble getting dates and things go great until it comes up. Just a mind "roadblock", had the situation not come up for say 5 or 6 dates, he may begin to know you enough to be over that issue or at a point of discussing it. Geez, give me a call, I'd take you out, no problem!

And as for you Kellycan, That is great news, I am so happy for you. I thought something was up, when you signature changed from boyfriend to fiancee. BIG HUG for you.
:hugs:

Barbara Dugan

12-18-2009, 11:48 PM

I think is fear pure and simple fear...you are an atractive woman you will find someone worthy of you soon.

Starling

12-19-2009, 01:32 AM

The "one for you" may not be what you expected, and the same goes the other way. To quote a song that was already old when I was young, It's a big, wide, wonderful world we live in!

Nobody knows love like someone who has unpinned it from the Simplicity pattern.

:daydreaming: Lallie

PS: Please excuse me, but I'm in a euphoric mood tonight!

Teri Jean

12-19-2009, 11:06 AM

Kara I have no clue how they can have such a distorted sense of sexuality. I find your picture very appealing and although I am transitioning, I'm attracted to women. You are every bit woman, blushing, so don't worry.

Huggs Teri

Melissa A.

12-19-2009, 11:55 AM

Yep, It's homophobia. For most guys, it's not just the idea that a transsexual "used to be male", but that anyone will even KNOW that they are dating someone that could even remotely label them as potentially, possibley, maybe, almost, could be, gay. Heck, most don't even know the difference between homophobia and transphobia, or that transsexuality really has nothing to do with actual sex. It's all the same thing to them, one big fagfest. To those not familar with anything about us, all the information they get is from the mass media. Not just the news but entertainment in the form of television and film, which typically portrays us as lovable but pathetic wretches(unpassable), decieving, seducing witches(passable), sex workers, or people who live on the fringes of society, in some alien, underground culture. We are he-shes, ********, its, things-The ease with which those words roll off of people's tongues, even many of those who ought to know and behave better, is a sign of, even with the tremendous strides in the last decade or so, of how far our culture still has to go.

As someone who is still pre-op, and certainly not 100% passable, the ethical challenge of to tell or not to tell, and when, isn't an issue for me. The men I date(not an every weekend occurance!!!) at least know and either don't care, or prefer a woman like myself. Of course, in my case, I do have to weed out the tranny chasers looking for "the best of both worlds" (ugh!). I do make it immediately clear that I am not a "chick with a d*ck", and if that is what they are looking for, to please move on. I long ago stopped asking men why they want to date me. We whine and complain about transphobia in our culture, but many of us are guilty of it. For me to ask myself why a nice, attractive man is with me when he could be with a GG, is transphobia, directed at myself.

My biggest problem is finding guys, period. Of course, it doesn't help that genius Melissa spends the majority of her out socializing time in a predominantly lesbian bar! (yeah, I know, not too bright, but it's where alot of my friends are, and I like it there!

I was talking to someone about love and romance recently, and she asked me if I prefer straight or gay guys. I just stared at her incredulously for a few seconds. This is someone who you would think would know better. But it just goes to show you that even in proggressive, open minded, accepting circles, and also very often even in the gay community, myths, misunderstandings and distortions about us are often the norm. So anyway, I didnt say a word to her for many seconds. Finally, she goes, "What??" I waited even a few more seconds and said, "Sweetie, think about who I am, and what you just said. What in the world would I do with a gay man?" She stared at me blankly for a second until the light bulb finally went on. This is what we deal with, even from our allies. Oh well.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

P.S.- Way back in my male days, I used to think the line-"all the great guys are either married or gay"-was just one of those things people say. Omg, It's not.

kellycan27

12-19-2009, 12:30 PM

As someone who is still pre-op, and certainly not 100% passable, the ethical challenge of to tell or not to tell, and when, isn't an issue for me. The men I date(not an every weekend occurance!!!) at least know and either don't care, or prefer a woman like myself.

When I was dating, if someone asked me out, and I was interested I always told them first thing....before the first date. Who needs the drama? If they were cool with it.....good, if not....next!

Kel

Teri Jean

12-19-2009, 11:06 PM

Kelly I have adopted the same approach and have had some very interesting conversations with some amazing ladies. No takers as yet and have not had any interested men either. There is time and after being married for 35yrs there is not rush to get that involved as yet.

Teri

Tiffany6791

12-19-2009, 11:30 PM

Oh forget them, they might have missed on the best thing that could have happened to them but I know what your talking about though. I would date you.

Starling

12-20-2009, 12:56 AM

...I always told them first thing...If they were cool with it.....good, if not....next!
Kel

That's the magic of commitment!

:) Lallie

slick2473

12-20-2009, 01:51 AM

My name is Slick. I'm Jane Douglas's SO. (Search her posts) Just a quick backgound on Jane & I. We got to know each other thru a mutual interest in Motorcycling. We rode together and one day over a few too many beers he confided in me that he liked to wear womens clothes. We started having a relationship and I discovered that I enjoyed having sex with HER regardless of what kind of equipment she had. If that makes me gay or queer or homo-anything, big deal. She's satisfied with our relationship for now so I'm not pushing it. But, I like her more than any women I've ever known. And Personally, I hope she decides to hold off on any surgical adjustments. But that's for her to decide. I think as time goes on, men in general are going to get over the dick -A- phobia.

Slick

P.S. I hope you all are aware that Kelly has a Fiance.

kellycan27

12-20-2009, 04:20 AM

Slick

P.S. I hope you all are aware that Kelly has a Fiance.

Thank you for reminding people Slick, I am pretty sure most everybody does know, cause you are probably about the 100th person to say that :heehee:

:hugs:
Kel

Byanca

12-20-2009, 05:30 AM

I walked to the gay pub yesterday, not far. But my first time ever on a pub like this. Dont think I am passable, due to being to tall. And the gay guys was not interested in me at all. If anything they where rude.

Met two mtf. And two regular girls that talked with me. Witch was great. I also got saddened, and cried down there by the dancefloor for a while.

Anyway, I had expected the gay guys to hit on me, or did not really know. But there was close to no interest.Except some rudeness from a few.

So you who have progressed this far, should do fine with straight guys. That is what makes sense in my book. It's even so for me I think, and I'm not on anything.

I suspect they are not straight.

kellycan27

12-20-2009, 04:10 PM

Byanca

12-20-2009, 06:02 PM

A lot of people here right here on these boards seem to feel the need to add the little disclaimer... I am not gay, and may even add.... I don't have a problem with gays, It's just not something I'am into. According to some.. these people must be homophobes, because it isn't possible it seems, to express a preference without being one. You want people to accept you the way you are without thinking that you are a weirdo,or pervert or a molester, because you are none of those things, you just have a preference for female clothing. But if another has a different preference, like wanting to have a gg as an SO, or a gg expresses her preference as not to have her SO be a cross dresser, then they are homophobes and trans phobic respectively?
Good observation. But gay does not apply to trans people unless or until they identify as either guy or girl in my book. And it is also situational dependant. I think it is perfectly fine to be straight today, and perhaps gay tomorrow, and neither the next day. Or does this become to messy?

Gay guys want guys I presume. Homo means the same. Of course all humans are quite similar, but relativity plays with our perceptions it seems. Anyway. I assume a guy that identify as gay prefers another guy. Not a trans(woman to be) or a grown woman. Or something else one transes too...

Melissa A.

12-20-2009, 08:41 PM

I have never specifically gone out of my way to say I wasn't gay....Heck, I think I may be bisexual-among other things, because I think it's important to never say never about anything. But is the fact that I only talk about men when I discuss romance make me a homophobe? Really? I sure hope not. It's just the direction in which I seem to be attracted. Mostly, anyway.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

Joy Carter

12-20-2009, 09:25 PM

When I was dating, if someone asked me out, and I was interested I always told them first thing....before the first date. Who needs the drama? If they were cool with it.....good, if not....next!

Kel

Good for you Kelly. To many trans girls got in over their heads, by not being honest in the first place. Call it any little names you want, you owe it to the person you intend to date who you are. Now, throw rocks if you must. LoL

Sally2005

12-21-2009, 02:10 AM

maybe:
fear
peer pressure
desire to be a father
having to deal with someone with big issues
thinking you are not a completly physical woman
ignorance

I guess you might want to wait until you get to know a bit before telling, but on the other hand, maybe you want to filter out this people sooner than later.

kellycan27

12-21-2009, 10:44 PM

Good observation. But gay does not apply to trans people unless or until they identify as either guy or girl in my book. And it is also situational dependant. I think it is perfectly fine to be straight today, and perhaps gay tomorrow, and neither the next day. Or does this become to messy?

Gay guys want guys I presume. Homo means the same. Of course all humans are quite similar, but relativity plays with our perceptions it seems. Anyway. I assume a guy that identify as gay prefers another guy. Not a trans(woman to be) or a grown woman. Or something else one transes too...

I think that you totally missed my point. It had nothing to do with gay or not gay it had to do with preference..... freedom of choice... without being labeled a homophobe or trans-phobic.

kellycan27

12-21-2009, 10:49 PM

helenr

12-21-2009, 11:18 PM

Kara, you are sensible to be truthful before relations heat up too much. Not only is that honest, but safer. Surely we have all heard about post or pre opts getting hurt-or murdered-by sickos who couldn't handle the disappointment. I don't want to scare the dickens out of you, but surely you have read these news stories. I am sure you would seek out a higher caliber of date, but folks react peculiarly. be careful and good luck.

Byanca

12-22-2009, 06:27 PM

I think that you totally missed my point. It had nothing to do with gay or not gay it had to do with preference..... freedom of choice... without being labeled a homophobe or trans-phobic.
Really? Well, I'm not surprised. It has happened before, me missing the point. Quite often actually. It's fine with me :)

Preferences is something weird though. Dont really understand that. At all. Especially strong preferences, never got around that one. Why one might have this?

Joy Carter

12-22-2009, 09:48 PM

kellycan27

12-26-2009, 02:25 PM

Really? Well, I'm not surprised. It has happened before, me missing the point. Quite often actually. It's fine with me :)

Preferences is something weird though. Dont really understand that. At all. Especially strong preferences, never got around that one. Why one might have this?

It's not rocket science here. I prefer wine over beer, I like boys, and maybe you like girls. Why does it matter?....... it is what it is.

carolinoakland

12-26-2009, 02:35 PM

I still am learning how delicate the male animal is with women, despite the insight i do have...

12-26-2009, 04:12 PM

Back in my guy days i would have dated you Kara, i think it's that guys reject outright us t-girls. because they don't want other males finding out or making fun of them and the shame they would feel

kellycan27

12-26-2009, 04:36 PM

Back in my guy days i would have dated you Kara, i think it's that guys reject outright us t-girls. because they don't want other males finding out or making fun of them and the shame they would feel

Well MJ, I think that in Kara's case, those men would be fools.

Byanca

12-26-2009, 08:27 PM

It's not rocket science here. I prefer wine over beer, I like boys, and maybe you like girls. Why does it matter?....... it is what it is.
I'd say girls are more like wine, while boys more like beer. I like girls, but did not work out sexually all that well, I don't get turned on, but that is probably bodily issues. No idea about boys, that's just fantasies. Except some light fooling around. Turned me on though. So I picture that it could prove more of a success. Just speculations. My real preferences is a mystery, behind locked doors. Maybe I am just to stoopid to figure it out. Or really don't have any. A flying fish. Or a black hole.

Maybe that doesn't matter either, if it is what it is.

kellycan27

12-26-2009, 10:27 PM

I'd say girls are more like wine, while boys more like beer. I like girls, but did not work out sexually all that well, I don't get turned on, but that is probably bodily issues. No idea about boys, that's just fantasies. Except some light fooling around. Turned me on though. So I picture that it could prove more of a success. Just speculations. My real preferences is a mystery, behind locked doors. Maybe I am just to stoopid to figure it out. Or really don't have any. A flying fish. Or a black hole.

Maybe that doesn't matter either, if it is what it is.

There ya go.. it doesn't matter because it is what it is.

Marcie4you

12-27-2009, 04:16 AM

Here's how to answer the "jerks", it's funny as hell too! :)
http://www.calpernia.com/category/writing/commentary/?fbc_channel=1#%7B%22id%22%3A0%2C%22sc%22%3A%22htt p%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fxd_receiver_v0.4.php% 22%2C%22sf%22%3A%22loginStatus%22%2C%22sr%22%3A2%2 C%22h%22%3A%22loginServer%22%2C%22sid%22%3A%220.09 0%22%2C%22t%22%3A0%7D%5B0%2C%22loginStatus%22%2C%2 2InitLogin%22%2C%7B%22session%22%3Anull%2C%22setti ngs%22%3A%7B%22feedStorySettings%22%3A%7B%22one_li ne%22%3A3%2C%22short%22%3A3%7D%2C%22inFacebook%22% 3Afalse%2C%22locale%22%3A%22en_US%22%7D%2C%22conne ctState%22%3A3%2C%22baseDomain%22%3A%22calpernia.c om%22%2C%22publicSessionData%22%3Anull%7D%2Cfalse% 5D

alphanumeric

01-01-2010, 01:37 PM

Frances

01-01-2010, 02:08 PM

Karen564

01-01-2010, 03:30 PM

This is a question that I always turn around on.

My question to you is,

"What's wrong with dating a gay or bi man?"

For starters, I don't want a gay man, and highly doubt any of my sisters in here want that either, and I have yet seen any gay man come onto me, gay men want other men, not women.. we not gay men that just dress like women, we are women!!!
As far as Bi-men, they either want a gay man, Bi CDer or genetic woman, neither of which we are, but there are a few that want to have an experience with us for a one night stand, but not willing to have a lasting relationship with us..
It's a personal choice, but for me, I want a hetero MAN.. to love & hold me as his woman.

the only criteria you should really be looking for is "Does this person accept me for who I am?"
Were all looking for exactly that, but that's also based upon our own personal sexuality preferences and if we are compatible together.

Instead it's usually "I must find the most macho hetero man to prove to the world that I'm a woman"
Not true, I just want a man that's caring & loving, I'm not out to prove anything to the world, I only want to be happy and make my man happy to be with me, but I also know that I don't want a fag for a husband or bf.

Lets face it. Transgendered people go on and on about acceptance and yet when someone finds them attractive and alluring your suddenly a "gay tranny chaser."
Sounds like your own personal problem, and that you were rejected by someone that was transgendered, did you ever think that the person that rejected you may have been a hetero man cross dresser with a wife at home, or if your an obviously a gay guy coming onto a girl like me, as I said, I'm not interested in a gay guy, sorry..

I amuses me that a group of people who demand acceptance and preach tolerance are usually so willing to buy into the whole "Only two genders" line and have very conservative outlooks when it comes to selecting partners.

I do not demand or preach anything!!!! All I want is the same as any hetero woman wants...Just because your gay does not give you the right to tell me what my own sexual preferences should be or anyone else's for that matter.. And those preferences are not a CHOICE, we have no control over the genetics that program our brain sex preferences, just the same as you did not choose to be gay.
And from your attitude in here, you have WAY more issues than we do...
One thing that might help you in the future is to go get yourself a personality, that would at least help you start a conversation with someone.. because the lack of one that your showing right here, sucks..

GypsyKaren

01-01-2010, 03:57 PM

Just going by your lack of participation since you joined a year and a half ago, I don't think you're in a position to say anything about "this group", let alone what we "preach" or "demand".

Karen :g1:

Melissa A.

01-01-2010, 05:20 PM

This is a question that I always turn around on.

My question to you is,

"What's wrong with dating a gay or bi man?"

the only criteria you should really be looking for is "Does this person accept me for who I am?"

Instead it's usually "I must find the most macho hetero man to prove to the world that I'm a woman"

Lets face it. Transgendered people go on and on about acceptance and yet when someone finds them attractive and alluring your suddenly a "gay tranny chaser."

I amuses me that a group of people who demand acceptance and preach tolerance are usually so willing to buy into the whole "Only two genders" line and have very conservative outlooks when it comes to selecting partners.

My questions to you are...

Where the bleep did THAT all come from??? does diversity of opinion somehow threaten or offend you? It seems as though the only person being rigid here is the one making assumptions about the rest.

There isn't anything wrong with dating a gay man-if you're a gay man. What in the world would a I, a woman attracted to men, do with a gay man? There's nothing wrong with dating a bi man, or a lesbian woman(if I were a lesbian). Who I like has alot more to do with who they are and less with what their gender is. It just happens to be a fact that I, as a human being, tend to be attracted to males. That's simple fact, that I didnt consciously choose. So why would I seek someone who is attracted to men???

How the hell do YOU know what it USUALLY is for me, or anyone? Again, assumptions.

Yeah, I like being accepted and treated like any other woman. Who doesn't? But my only criteria for deciding someone is a so-called "chaser", or not what I am looking for, is this-When they look at me, do they see a female, or attempt to make me into something of their own liking- a chick with a d*ck or some such nonsense, that is ok for some, but simply not who I am? You don't seem to really understand the meaning of the word acceptance. For a gay man to understand what I am, then be attracted to me anyway, is not acceptance. It's wishful thinking.

Your comments can only lead me to conclude that you also have a misunderstanding of what a transsexual woman is. No one was attacking you. what lead you to come in here and be so obnoxiously less than gracious?

Hugs,

Melissa:)

KaraChristine

01-01-2010, 06:19 PM

Just got back from a two week trip to find a lot of thought provoking responses to my post. Thanks to everyone who replied.

I posed this same question to one of the guys who rejected me via email after I told him I was trans. Here's his reply straight from the horse's mouth:

Obviously I'm neither a pyschiatrist nor have I much (any?) experience with your so-called situation. Though I suspect that ever since childhood you have had an inner feeling that you are female deep down inside, you have had many years to prepare yourself for the mental change as well as the physical change. When you find that a straight guy is attracted to you and you to him, then the next step is short conversation where you rightfully share your story and sex change. This I suspect comes as quite a shock to nearly 95% of the normal male populance. Some may be aggresive, some understanding and some simply uninterested to go any further. But there is most certainly the other 5% (and that's a totally uneducated estimate) that will have no problem with your trans-genderedness. Just don't expect the macho-confident type who is generally always seeking the ultimate blonde bimbo porn star types. To sum up what I'm trying to say is that your situation comes first as a shock to a straight guy and most, including myself simply cannot deal with this reality.....or more honestly do not want to deal with this sort of thing as it's hard for us to ever accept you as 100% female. Right or wrong it's the way most normal guys feel. It's strictly mental and nothing to do physical. You are indeed a sexy and attractive person.

You can get laid very easily in Vegas and with good looking straighty men. But it will be through alcohol eyes and deception. If you really want to find a straight man who accepts you 100% for who you were and are now, then you're going to have to play the lottery, be prepared for alot of rejection and await one nice guy in the 5% category. Be grateful for this internet thing as you can weed out many and perhaps find the golden apple.

Obviously I didn't have to respond to your email or question. Not really sure why I care other than I am also a good person deep down inside. Likewise I have but one opinion and cannot of course speak for the entire male populance. But my problem is a mental one regarding your trans-gendered being and although I can accept you as a female in person I have a mental block (most certainly I would in bed) that tells me that I am in fact sleeping with someone who is not 100% female. Sorry if that hurts but you wanted an honest opinion.

:shots:

Zenith

01-01-2010, 06:36 PM

Just one (he admits) uneducated opinion...I seriously doubt he speaks for all...

sempervirens

01-01-2010, 08:22 PM

I posed this same question to one of the guys who rejected me via email after I told him I was trans. Here's his reply straight from the horse's mouth... :shots:
What's really insulting is that he doesn't recognize that some of what he's writing is horribly misguided. He also doesn't do a great job of referring to, or I'd guess, seeing transgender people as equal. I'm offended and it wasn't even written to me, yikes. Really sorry about him, Kara. Best wishes finding a better guy-- shouldn't be hard!

Karen564

01-01-2010, 08:36 PM

Kara, I'm with you on that one...would you mind pouring me a shot while your at it, :shots: then we can cry together sis..
When the bottle is empty, we can then talk about it....and get through it, I know you can..

So, he's saying 1 for every 20...that may be feasible, but I would still love to know how he came to that conclusion..

2010 will be better, I promise..:hugs:

:love:

Barbara Dugan

01-01-2010, 09:22 PM

Wow that one really hurts I can feel the pain and I am not a trangensder woman.. when he said you can get laid easily on vegas by good looking straight guys but only because alcohol and deception..he thinks its all about sex:doh: what a loser..I still think you will find your prince charming very soon :hugs:

Hope

01-01-2010, 09:25 PM

So, he's saying 1 for every 20...that may be feasible, but I would still love to know how he came to that conclusion..

He pulled that "so-called" conclusion about "your so-called situation" out of his ignorant self centered a$$. The tone of his reply is enough to make me gag - I can't imagine spending time with someone so absolutely assured of his superiority. It was so kind of him to look fondly upon us little people wasn't it? Obviously he didn't have to. Ack.

Good lord... Be glad this twerp isn't interested in you. You dodged a bullet with this one.

dilane

01-01-2010, 09:51 PM

I posed this same question to one of the guys who rejected me via email after I told him I was trans. Here's his reply straight from the horse's mouth:
:shots:

That in my experience with several TS friends, is not unusual.

All the name-calling in the world isn't going to change that some guys just can't handle the thought. I know one TS girl who told her BF waaay late, when they were discussing marriage, and it did not go well. I've heard many second hand stories with the same ending.

However, like Mr. Wrong said, they are out there, but I think they are a distinct minority. But several acquaintances have BF's who know. One met the guy in a swanky straight bar in Beverly Hills. He was put off at first, then came around, and they're still a number after over a year.

This is something we who are thinking of transitioning need to consider -- nothing about this is easy, is it? Even in my experience out and about with guys who were obviously interested, most times the disclosure quells the ardor (but not always!) In my experience, most of the guys remain friendly.

-- Diane

Melissa A.

01-01-2010, 10:20 PM

What Hope said. His attempt to appear somewhat empathetic and intelligent was pitiful-he may as well have called you a freak and told you to screw off. Actually, that's exactly what he did. I dont know what the percentages really are, but believe me, you're better off.

Whatta Creep.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

fun4metoo2004

01-02-2010, 12:21 AM

I don't get hung up on it myself. I am a crossdresser(underdress only so far). If the person is nice to be with, who cares that they were not born female.

I am now almost 50, and having been divorced for 15 or so years, and not have a stable relationship(sad I know), I like to think that I am open to all possibilities. For me it depends on the person. Pre-Op/Post-Op, makes no difference.

carolinoakland

01-02-2010, 12:57 AM

Yikes! Talk about "some of my best friends are...". It still amaze's me that the first question I always get is

" So? How long have you been gay?"

My fave response is...

"Well, technically, not until after the operation."

kristyk

01-02-2010, 08:32 AM

Kara don't let this loser get you down you are a good person what may of looked like your knight in shinning armour turned out to be Mr. Duddley it's his loss and not yours.

Your a pretty girl who will find a nice man soon

KristyK

Sharon

01-02-2010, 08:42 AM

I amuses me that a group of people who demand acceptance and preach tolerance are usually so willing to buy into the whole "Only two genders" line and have very conservative outlooks when it comes to selecting partners.

It amuses me when someone who is so shielded from sharing any information at all about themself is amused at others who are open about themselves. Tell me, are you transsexual? Are you a "tranny chaser?" Or are you someone who just enjoys being bemused and antagonistic towards a large segment of the site once every six months or so?

So, tell us all about yourself, Alpha. C'mon, our bites aren't deadly.

cordgrass

01-02-2010, 10:00 AM

Butting in as a GG here--never ask a man his "honest opinion" about your attractiveness. They often volunteer it anyhow, like some men I have been with who said that no man would be interested in having sex with me since I occasionally ejaculate. "A woman who ejaculates is too much like a man, it's totally disgusting." I've also been told that no man would be interested in me because I'm fat or because I have orgasms too easily and "Men like to be the ones giving their women the orgasms, they like control."

Just because one doofus thinks he speaks for all men, well, anyhow, don't mind them.

01-02-2010, 11:04 AM

that hurts just reading his reply. Kara you will find that wonderful person out there keep looking :hugs:

MissAmy

01-02-2010, 12:18 PM

Here's my point of view

I think a lot men grow up with a hatred of gays and trans. Though some of them have their hatreds die down to the point of tolerance and maybe even acceptance as they mature and grow up and learn to think for themselves.

Now most men like pretty women, but even if a Genetic man becomes a woman and looks just like the rest it can still be off putting.

For one even if he knows you're a woman now, the thought of you once being a guy can be a huge turn-off. I wouldn't exactly show any partner your old boy pictures unless they ask.

Even if they want to be your friend, lover, and partner; they might be afraid of ridicule from their friends and family. People are mean in this world and I forgive all the people who turn down relationships like that, because I can understand being in their shoes. Sure teasing and jokes might be not be too bad, but you never know if someone might try to ruin your job, or try to kill you because they think your relationship is wrong.

The sad fact about trans-women is that gay men probably don't want them. I think everyone is attracted to faces not genitals. I feel attracted to women but as a virgin I do not know what a vagina feels like. But when I finally do have sex, does anyone really think I'm not going to love it?

sfwarbonnet

01-02-2010, 03:29 PM

Is a GG who accepts, encourages, shops with, uses ladies fitting and restrooms with her, and has sex with, a CD en femme a lesbian?

~Emma D~

01-02-2010, 06:30 PM

Hi Kara

Just read the email from that guy and a bit surprised at his comments, seem a bit insincere and just making excuses.

The problem men have with almost anything in life is fear, control and intolerance. For a lot of them, it’s a fear of being ridiculed by there mates, peers, call them what you like and the intolerance that brings with it. They also need to feel in control of situations.

I honestly think a lot depends on where you live and the age group – IMO my generation, are not particularly tolerant, but even then I have seen a subtle change in recent years, whereas younger people seem to be much more open minded, but even then it depends on how mature they are and if they are strong minded or easily led.

I have seen that fear twice first hand because of who I am, and suffered severe beatings as a result of it, many years ago, to the point I went into long term denial of who I was.

It may take time to change attitudes, but hopefully it will happen.

Please be careful whatever you do

Sarah:)

msginaadoll

01-02-2010, 08:29 PM

Byanca

01-03-2010, 12:29 AM

Everyone brings a different view, beliefs, etc into their journey. For some that may mean that they will never accept a transgender woman as a complete or full woman. You know what I believeis that is there right and that does not make them bigoted or a worse person. I personally feel there is a danger when we place our values on other people. I have friends who due to there religious beliefs feel that homosexuality is wrong. Well you know what I respect them for that- that is there belief and also one of millions of other people. Just because I disagree with someone doesnt make or give me cause to judge or belittle them.
I'm undecided about these things.

It's the same as one thinks a man is better then a woman. A white is better then a black person. An accountant is more worth then a cleaning lady. etc.

Sure they have the rights to their beliefs. But laws are for protection amongst other things, against beliefs. Because beliefs can come out of control, and be dangerous. So if they keep these things to themselves it is fine. But speaking about it only brings a bad atmosphere, I dont see the point. And wish they didnt. There must be other things one can talk about, if one have a degrading view about people? What is the point of saying it to another person? Just to feel superior? And to make the other feel bad?

donnalee

01-03-2010, 12:49 AM

Wow! I for one applaud the man for expressing himself and being honest. Sure I may not like everything he said, but I do believe he represents a lot of men out there, maybe even a majority. Just because we want to be accepted does not mean that we will be. Everyone brings a different view, beliefs, etc into their journey. For some that may mean that they will never accept a transgender woman as a complete or full woman. You know what I believeis that is there right and that does not make them bigoted or a worse person. I personally feel there is a danger when we place our values on other people. I have friends who due to there religious beliefs feel that homosexuality is wrong. Well you know what I respect them for that- that is there belief and also one of millions of other people. Just because I disagree with someone doesnt make or give me cause to judge or belittle them.
There is a rather simple way of assessing the moralty of those whom you show so much "respect" for. Do they want their views to only apply to themselves, or do they want to impose them on everyone? If the latter, they are no better than the folks who killed 3000 people on 9/11. This is intolerance, pure & simple, and does not deserve to be treated with respect. On the other hand, "Don't try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time, and irritates the pig." (Robert Heinlein); sometimes it's better not to comment.

Miranda09

01-03-2010, 01:15 AM

Hi Kara. First of all, I go into this thread somewhat late (which is OK), and second, you are indeed a very attractive and hot woman. The note from the email contact just illustrates how hard it is for most men to get over the transgendered stigma. Even tho they see you as a woman, they still percieve you as a man. I'm sorry to admit this but I too had such a stigma, tho I never actually met someone who went thru the transition as you have, before coming to this site. Since coming to this site and exploring my own feminine side, I have done an about face on my viewpoints. It all boils down to how willing is the male populace, and society in general, to educate themselves about those who have transitioned and accept them for who they are. I'm sure it won't be easy, just as I'm sure it isn't easy for those FtM transitioned males to be accepted for who they are by straight women. Don't dispare. Mr Right is out there...as Kelly is proof positive! ;)

TerryTerri

01-03-2010, 01:40 AM

From Kara's post #51 of this thread.

"....Obviously I didn't have to respond to your email or question. Not really sure why I care other than I am also a good person deep down inside..."

Humm, is he trying to justify to himself what an a$$ he is being?

Just a thought.

melimelo

01-03-2010, 01:59 AM

I've been trying some "serious" dating websites. After exchanging a couple of questions and messages, I tell them that I'm a transwoman. One told me to go a bar to "pick up" guys and the other suggested I might have more luck in San Francisco. :Angry3:

I'm superlatively annoyed at this backward kind of attitude, but at the same time, as dilane and some others already mentioned, finding a straight guy that will still consider us for a relationship is an uphill battle. I have a sudden desire to "educate" these reluctant men, with the help of a couple of props: manacles, duck tape, car batteries, red ants... :devil: I should stop before Karen deletes my post for being too offensive ;-)

"I'm not mean, I'm just drawn that way!"
-- Jessica Rabbit

kellycan27

01-03-2010, 02:06 AM

Rude or not, I am afraid that a lot of men probably feel exactly as he does. How many str8 cder's here are repulsed at the thought of being involved with a smelly,hairy, nasty GM,( iam not gay) and have expressed it just as I have just done?
Or maybe you are even PC about it, but that doesn't change the fact that you find it repugnant. It is unfortunate that this guy wasn't as delicate as some of you thought that he should be, but str8 forward or candy coated.. it is what it is. Rejection is still rejection no matter how you look at it.
Are you in fact ignorant or uneducated because of your preference? I am not defending his words, but I am defending his right to his own preference, just as I defend your right to being disgusted by the thought of having a sexual relationship with another man. I don't see the difference. I know exactly where Kara is coming from, and had my share of rejection, and it is hurtful. I found out that you in fact do have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince, especially when you are competing with gg's in the mainstream. GG's are a pretty hard act to follow. Kara, my best advice to you is to hang in there, and don't give up your dream...

Kelly

joanlynn28

01-03-2010, 02:11 AM

All that comes to mind is what an ass he is. Deep inside I'm a good person, good person my a$$ sure after all of his judgemental comments.

Hope

01-03-2010, 03:07 AM

I'm superlatively annoyed at this backward kind of attitude, but at the same time, as dilane and some others already mentioned, finding a straight guy that will still consider us for a relationship is an uphill battle.

Don't waist time being angry - be glad that the idiots are self-identifying, so you know who to avoid.

Rude or not, I am afraid that a lot of men probably feel exactly as he does. How many str8 cder's here are repulsed at the thought of being involved with a smelly,hairy, nasty GM,( iam not gay) and have expressed it just as I have just done?

Are you in fact ignorant or uneducated because of your preference? I am not defending his words, but I am defending his right to his own preference, just as I defend your right to being disgusted by the thought of having a sexual relationship with another man.

Perhaps some clarification is in order? No one is upset with this looser because he likes girls, or because of his preference for them. Kara IS a girl, not a smelly hairy, nasty man. The looser in question has a stated preference for girls, Kara is a girl... The problem is that she is / was transexual and the looser can't handle the fact that she used to have a birth defect she has since had corrected. His little lizard brain can't handle it - and he is blaming her (and her "so-called condition") for it. It is BS - to be polite about it. It might be "the way it is" but that does not excuse it.

We DO find the way he has chosen to express himself to be pretty repugnant, - but even that is only because he is so bloody smug and condescending about it.

kellycan27

01-03-2010, 04:20 AM

Don't waist time being angry - be glad that the idiots are self-identifying, so you know who to avoid.

Perhaps some clarification is in order? No one is upset with this looser because he likes girls, or because of his preference for them. Kara IS a girl, not a smelly hairy, nasty man. The looser in question has a stated preference for girls, Kara is a girl... The problem is that she is / was transexual and the looser can't handle the fact that she used to have a birth defect she has since had corrected. His little lizard brain can't handle it - and he is blaming her (and her "so-called condition") for it. It is BS - to be polite about it. It might be "the way it is" but that does not excuse it.

We DO find the way he has chosen to express himself to be pretty repugnant, - but even that is only because he is so bloody smug and condescending about it.

I don't think that there is anyone that understands that Kara is a girl more than than I do. And I am sure that just like me and a whole bunch of other TS's, Kara understands that we are not biological girls, no matter how much we desire it to be. There are going to be people that that can't abide by fact that we were indeed once men. You know perfectly well that my reference to big,hairy smelly men was not directed towards kara. Your idea of what's right and what's wrong,fair or unfair is a nice notion, but the world is not a such nice place and can be very unfair. I don't know what your claim to fame is, but if you are a TS, you'ed better wake up to the reality that exists out there, if you hope to succeed. That guy may be a prick, but you know what?The world is full of other pricks just like him.. He is the reality that we as transsexuals face out there everyday. He is our reality! Pretty damn ugly isn't it.

msginaadoll

01-03-2010, 09:25 AM

KaraChristine

01-03-2010, 01:32 PM

Michael, the self described "100% straight divorced guy" who I've been seeing at home in Vegas for a few months broke up with me via email while I was away on a long working trip over Christmas. Then I decided to start accepting some of the "propositions" I get from guys while traveling as a flight attendant.

One experience in particular made me think of this posting... there's a really good looking guy who works at one of our layover hotels. I've spoken to him pretty regularly over the past few months and I assumed that he knew all about my transgender history (it's apparently still one of the biggest topics of gossip at my airline). I was stuck alone in the hotel over Christmas, and hot guy offered to stop by my room on Christmas afternoon to bring some food and wine (!!). One thing led to another and among all the other festive Christmas activities, we engaged in a very intimate encounter. It was the first time I'd experienced some of these feelings since the surgery in September and we both seemed to very much enjoy the encounter. :battingeyelashes:

Then as part of the pillow talk later on, I guess I said something that referenced my transition. He was in shock, literally. I really assumed he knew, but apparently not... luckily he was a nice mild kind guy and didn't freak out & hurt me like the classic cautionary tales warn about. He said it didn't matter, but he hasn't called, emailed or attempted to contact me since then either. :sad:

One thing this experience suggests to me is that, if an experienced straight guy can spend ten minutes in daylight between my legs without realizing that I'm transgender, there is no significant physical difference at this point between me and any other random "genetic" woman lumbering around the mall... the difference is in the straight male brain, not necessarily in our beautiful transgender female bodies.

It infuriates me a bit when the implication is made that in a world full of horny guys we should be lucky and content to wait for the "5%" who will condescend enough to sleep with us!

Miranda09

01-03-2010, 01:53 PM

It's going to be a learning process for you Kara, but please do be careful out there. Maybe you should try to be upfront with guys before anything happens. That way, whoever you do meet, you know it'll be for the right reasons. :)

WalT

01-03-2010, 02:51 PM

Just from my experience as a FtM that dated a GM, if a guy doesn't want to date you because you're trans or stops being interested solely because you're trans, chances are there was going to be something else to put them off anyways if they can't see past something as trivial to your character or relationship as that....

Life is far too short to waste time over people like that. I'm lucky to be back with my partner and I've gotten to the point that if me being a FtM bothers someone so much, they can go screw themselves because there's probably something equally as petty that would find to stop liking me.

Melissa A.

01-03-2010, 02:59 PM

My question on the gentlemans posting is he trying to place his views on others. Is he saying that you are a lower class person or lesser person because of who u are, or because you are transgender. I do not see that, so comparing this to a the black white issue, or any other issue of discrimination is an insult to those who have been oppressed. this is an issue of someone not being able to be feel they can be romantically involved with someone due to their feelings. They may be irrational or not. But they are there feelings. I mean cmon peopl heave you ever met someone who u thought was perfect or great and then found out something about them that changed your mind. Well I have met ladies and thought they might be right for me until I discovered there political view were completely different than mine. I may be wrong and generally am however I would like to have people tell me where in his post or what exactly did he say that makes him Adolph Hitler, and the Grand Wizard of the KKK rolled into one.

This wasn't about someone's political or religious views. One doesn't choose to be trans. And it's not about his preferences, which he's got every right to..
Maybe you missed the condescending tone or a couple of the comments this genius made.("You can get laid very easily in Vegas and with good looking straighty men. But it will be through alcohol eyes and deception.") Yep, they only way a trans woman can find companionship is thru meaningless sex,in another city, through the use of alcohol, and of course, deception. Because everyone knows that if we try to live like other women, we're a bunch of liars and decievers. You don't have to read between the lines there to find the whole thing very demeaning.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

kayesimone

01-03-2010, 03:14 PM

i wish you well miss kara...and maybe not so much overthinking...
seems the classic tale of finding someone who will love me as i am...
you just have your own personal twist...we all do...
you have the advantage of being extremely attractive. (HOT)
maybe pillowtalk should be sweet nothings, especially when just for lust.
if i were you...i would be keeping a journal for the screenplay...
i just wanted to wish you happiness and joy...

kellycan27

01-03-2010, 03:33 PM

I have to admit that I was a bit taken aback by your last post. I was under the impression that you were more interested in a loving and caring relationship as opposed to just getting l**d. I am sure that the percentage of guys who would just have sex with us is way higher than the 5% (where ever that number came from) so cheer up. The down side is that, as you just experienced is that they probably won't want to see us again, unless of course that they just want sex again, and we are "conveniently handy". IMHO you basically tricked this guy. The don't ask,don't tell theory is OK I suppose for one night stands, just be careful not to let the cat out of the bag. ( you really could get hurt )
It may in fact not be any body's business that we are TS, but personally I feel that laying our cards on the table with a potential SO will produce a more honest and open relationship in the long run. I certainly wouldn't want that little "secret" hanging over my head as I am sure that many who have hidden their CDing from a wife or So can attest.
Maybe you did discover that it is more of a brain fart on the part of men, and less to do with our female body, but just remember that the "male brain" no matter how screwed up it may be, is exactly what we have to deal with.
There is nothing wrong in your belief that you are a woman now, and the past doesn't matter, but as you have discovered in this case your past absoultely did matter. Right wrong or indifferent. Disclosure may in fact lower your odds of finding someone that will accept the fact that you are in fact TS, but with non disclosure you always run the risk of it coming back and biting you in the butt. I have to admit that I am confused as to what it is you really want.

Kel

Melissa A.

01-03-2010, 03:46 PM

KaraChristine

01-03-2010, 04:19 PM

I have to admit that I was a bit taken aback by your last post. I was under the impression that you were more interested in a loving and caring relationship as opposed to just getting l**d. ... I have to admit that I am confused as to what it is you really want.

I guess like most human beings, I definitely want a loving, caring, full relationship with someone who respects and wants me. But also like most human beings, there are times when I get lonely or turned on and feel the need for some physical contact. I was newly (brutally) single and engaging in behavior that, if I was a man, no one would question - being attracted to someone and wanting to act on it is a universal trait of human beings I think.

"Any woman who chooses to behave like a full human being should be warned that the armies of the status quo will treat her as something of a dirty joke. That's their natural and first weapon." Gloria Steinem

IMHO you basically tricked this guy. The don't ask,don't tell theory is OK I suppose for one night stands, just be careful not to let the cat out of the bag. ( you really could get hurt )

I really disagree that I "tricked" anyone in this scenario. This guy and I had a few conversations before the date and we'd known each other for a couple months. He was unbelievably complimentary to me and pursued me relentlessly before I finally agreed to meet. I didn't and still don't know about every important aspect of his life history that I might find off-putting (e.g. what surgeries he's had, if he's ever been treated for a physical or emotional disorder, etc.) so what gives him the right to have a full listing of mine?

I understand that some men can react violently, and for that reason I probably wouldn't knowingly have any kind of relationship with someone who doesn't know my trans status. In this particular case I thought he did know, and there was no point in our conversation that would have led naturally to me saying, "By the way, are you sure you know that the world used to consider me a guy even though I never did, and I had some surgery to correct the parts of me that I knew were wrong?" ...

WalT

01-03-2010, 04:25 PM

kellycan27

01-03-2010, 05:36 PM

*Sigh* Again, if we don't disclose, we are "decievers" and "tricking" people. Damn. Honestly, sometimes we're the most Transphobic people around, and our own worst enemies. As an adult, a Trans woman has a right to want anything she wants, like anyone. Whether that be sex or a relationship is everyone's right to choose, at any given time.

It may be more honest, better for a relationship, allow one to breathe easier and safer, to tell. I happen to agree with all of that. Just don't tell me it's a requirement, or else I'm in the business of tricking people, and not honest.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

Nobody said that it is required, and you yourself agree that honesty would make for a better relationship. It seems to me that the OP wants to be in a relationship, as opposed to just having sex. No one is saying that she has to wear a sign around her neck or broadcast to the world that she is TS.
I am saying that IMHO a relationship that begins with secrets has less of a chance to succeed than one the starts out honest and up front from the beginning. If everyone lays their cards on the table "both" parties can freely exercise their "right to choose". Sure she can choose to not disclose, but if it comes back to bite her in the ass later, she has no body to blame but herself, by exercising her right to choose over the other persons.
You are all about rights, do her rights trump her potential SO's rights?
Wouldn't it stand to reason that if someone wishes to have an open and honest and loving relationship, they should begin it with openness and honesty? Let's take an example that doesn't even involve a TS.
Lets say that a woman meets a man, and from she gathers he meets all of things that she finds desirable in a mate. The only thing is that she desires children, but he fails to disclose the fact that he is sterile. This may be a deal breaker so instead of telling her, he keeps it to himself because he want to be in a relationship with her. Does his desire to be with her trump her right to bare children if she so desires?
Take this same couple and she expresses the desire to have children, but in this case he does disclose the fact that he is in deed sterile. It still may be a deal breaker or maybe they can exercise other options like adoption.Either way she at least gets the opportunity to choose.
I am only 26 years old and a lot of people seem to think that I am still wet behind the ears. Yet I see people here that are 20 or 30 years older than I am that still do not understand fairness. Am I that naive that I don't understand, or is they're seeming failure to be able to look at both sides of the coin because it doesn't fit their agenda of having things their way or the way they think that things should be? I am beginning to wonder if treating others the way that you would like to be treated is really meaningless, and looking out for number one is more in tune with some people's attitudes in here.

kellycan27

01-03-2010, 05:52 PM

Unfortunately there will always, ALWAYS be people that no matter how early or upfront you are with them about your trans status, they will consider you liars and deceivers no matter what, because to them, you're an impostor that's only out there to trick people.

*sigh*

That may be true, but there are also those who can and will accept you for being being what you are after being open and honest with them. Your point being? Do we take that into consideration and not disclose for fear that they may very well have that attitude? I believe that we are talking relationships rather than random people. Wouldn't they be technically right about us if we enter into a relationship without being honest about ourselves?

Melissa A.

01-03-2010, 06:17 PM

Kelly, I'm completely in agreement with you, there. I kind of thought I said that. And yeah, I do have an inkling about what fairness is...I wouldn't dream of being in an emotionally committed relationship without my partner knowing everything about me. For myself and for him. What got me was hearing you say that Kara "tricked" this guy. Maybe I overeacted a little, because when I see that, I do get upset. It's a tactic used already by popular culture in almost every portrayal of transexual women you will find. It's telling the story from one side, that of the person being "decieved". As far as I can tell, she's a long way from marrying anyone. As to when you bare your soul, I'd say there isn't a morally right time, it depends on the people involved and the relationship. Are there very good safety-related reasons for telling a man you have casual sex with, or even just date a few times without having sex? You bet there are. I'm not talking about what may make very good sense, in many situations. My problem is with none of that. It is with a persistent belief that the onus lies with me to reveal a very private and intimate part of my life to just anyone. That if I don't, I'm denying someone of some kind of right to know. Some people are actually offended if a TS who has been a friend or co-worker(I'm not talking about coming out at work; thats a completely different situation) for a while hasnt told them. What a beautifully overblown sense of entitlement! This happens, and is encouraged by our culture. It's dissapointing for me to see that kind of talk in here, and you bet I will respond if I see it. I'm all for common sense, fairness, and treating others as you would like to be treated. A man chats me up at a club. I have a nice conversation with him. He feels an attraction, on some level. It may just be harmless flirting, or a friendly talk. He then finds out I'm trans. Are his fears and insecurities that cause him to become enraged really my problem? (again, this is separate from safety) Have I done anything wrong? I can tell youone thing pretty certainly...If I'm badly beaten or murdered at that point, more than one angle in the reporting of this story will concern the fact that I "didn't tell him" I was trans. That is what I mean by telling the story from one perspective, and whether you realise it or not, I believe that is where you are going when you use the word "tricked", in my opinion. And the persistent belief that it's ok to feel that way is what perpetuates the danger level for all of us, instead of dialing it down a bit, and realising that there are parts of my life that are none of your business. You don't have to know everything. Maybe we have a misunderstanding here, and actually agree on more than you think.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

kellycan27

01-03-2010, 06:17 PM

I guess like most human beings, I definitely want a loving, caring, full relationship with someone who respects and wants me. But also like most human beings, there are times when I get lonely or turned on and feel the need for some physical contact. I was newly (brutally) single and engaging in behavior that, if I was a man, no one would question - being attracted to someone and wanting to act on it is a universal trait of human beings I think.

"Any woman who chooses to behave like a full human being should be warned that the armies of the status quo will treat her as something of a dirty joke. That's their natural and first weapon." Gloria Steinem

I really disagree that I "tricked" anyone in this scenario. This guy and I had a few conversations before the date and we'd known each other for a couple months. He was unbelievably complimentary to me and pursued me relentlessly before I finally agreed to meet. I didn't and still don't know about every important aspect of his life history that I might find off-putting (e.g. what surgeries he's had, if he's ever been treated for a physical or emotional disorder, etc.) so what gives him the right to have a full listing of mine?

I understand that some men can react violently, and for that reason I probably wouldn't knowingly have any kind of relationship with someone who doesn't know my trans status. In this particular case I thought he did know, and there was no point in our conversation that would have led naturally to me saying, "By the way, are you sure you know that the world used to consider me a guy even though I never did, and I had some surgery to correct the parts of me that I knew were wrong?" ...

That's all good and fine, maybe tricked was the wrong choice of words, he didn't know and when he did find out, he obviously didn't find it his cup of tea. You are not obligated to disclose anything to anyone if it is your desire to keep it to yourself, especially in the case of a one night stand. I have read some of your other posts and the theme seems to be along the lines of why can't I find a str8 guy who can accept me as I am? No you don't have to disclose anything, but what if ( like this other guy) he does have an issue with it (right or wrong) ? If you wish to continue keeping it to yourself even when it comes to a potential LTR, you run the risk of having the same outcome. see ya! I am just saying that your chances of finding that LTR and being successful at it might be better if both parties are up front.
No it's not a requirement, but I believe that it makes good sense. You may be able to pull it off for a while, but the potential for disaster is always there. Is that how you want to live your life? Is the fact that it's nobody's business but your own going to make you feel better if it fact goes all to hell one day?

Hope

01-03-2010, 06:26 PM

I don't think that there is anyone that understands that Kara is a girl more than than I do. And I am sure that just like me and a whole bunch of other TS's, Kara understands that we are not biological girls, no matter how much we desire it to be. There are going to be people that that can't abide by fact that we were indeed once men. You know perfectly well that my reference to big,hairy smelly men was not directed towards kara. Your idea of what's right and what's wrong,fair or unfair is a nice notion, but the world is not a such nice place and can be very unfair. I don't know what your claim to fame is, but if you are a TS, you'ed better wake up to the reality that exists out there, if you hope to succeed. That guy may be a prick, but you know what?The world is full of other pricks just like him.. He is the reality that we as transsexuals face out there everyday. He is our reality! Pretty damn ugly isn't it.

Yes, because what the transexual community needs is more transexuals who think it is perfectly acceptable to discriminate against transexuals, because you know, we are creepy trannies after all.

FABULOUS!

Discrimination seems be the reality you have encountered - but that doesn't make it ok; and it doesn't mean that accepting that reality as the only possible option and teaching others to live with it is acceptable either. Wanting to change things so that the future is brighter for everyone is not really such a bad thing after all.

I am only 26 years old and a lot of people seem to think that I am still wet behind the ears. Yet I see people here that are 20 or 30 years older than I am that still do not understand fairness. Am I that naive that I don't understand, or is they're seeming failure to be able to look at both sides of the coin because it doesn't fit their agenda of having things their way or the way they think that things should be?

Yes! that is EXACTLY what it is! You are perfect, and WE are ALL wrong for wanting to be treated equally. Thanks for setting us strait on this. I am sure we will all sleep better now, knowing that expecting to be treated as whole people was wrong and foolish of us.

GypsyKaren

01-03-2010, 06:38 PM

kellycan27

01-03-2010, 07:02 PM

I didn't realize that every chance encounter with a man should be treated like it might lead to 60 years of wedded bliss...geez, an adult having sex with another adult and enjoying it, I'm heading for the basement.

KS :g1:

The theme of the OP seems to be asking about LTR's not one night stands or even a few dates that may involve sex. The OP or anybody else for that matter is not required to disclose anything in such cases, nor in a LTR for that matter. Once the guy found out that kara was a TS... he bolted. She had fun, he seemed to enjoy it..it was all good, no harm no foul.
My observations were more about disclosure in where a LTR might be considered. She doesn't have to disclose anything, but if and when it comes out, might she experience the same thing...adios! Wouldn't being open and honest up front be more prudent than waiting for the other shoe to drop?

kellycan27

01-03-2010, 08:12 PM

Yes, because what the transexual community needs is more transexuals who think it is perfectly acceptable to discriminate against transexuals, because you know, we are creepy trannies after all.
Actually I don't think that discrimination is acceptable, but the truth of the matter is that it's out there and we have to deal with it on a daily basis.Looking at the world through rose colored glasses and hoping for change is so nice, but not a lot of help in the here and now. Being aware of the fact that it does exist might help us to not get eaten up by it. We are all creepy trannies? Are you in fact a transexual? Are you out there living it 24/7 ? Or do you have the luxury of running home and changing into your drabs when you get frightened, or appearing in your drabs so that you don't have to feel the scorn of your friends ,loved ones or neighbors? Do you wear your girly clothes when you are at the pulpit? I do live it 24/7 365, and I don't have the luxury of changing into my drabs, or calling off of work because I am insecure or frightened. The mere fact that I am out there living it everyday amongst the detractors and those who would discriminate should tell you that I do not accept it. What do you really know about it other than what you read? When is the last time you were discriminated against when you were just trying to do your job, or make your way from point a to point b?

Nope I am not perfect, and wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone was treated equally. A very nice dream. I don't have the luxury of dreaming about what may or may not transpire in the future. I have to deal with how things are right now. And keeping in mind that there are narrow minded idiots and haters keeps me alert and keeps me from having my heart ripped out because I just don't think it's fair that people discriminate against me. And you may may not like the fact that my words are harsh, but they are true and and although we need not accept it... it's out there, just as harsh and nasty as my words appear to be. I find it amusing that you want to turn it around on me, like I am the one who discriminates. Just callin it like I see and have experienced it. No candy coating, no what if's or wouldn't it be nice.

And further more, I have experienced the same things that Kara has with regards to acceptance from men. It hurts, and also believe that what we once were shouldn't matter, but the sad truth if that it does in deed matter as witnessed by myself, Kara, and I am sure countless others. It's not something that you have to accept, but it is something that you have to live with. And I am sure that it will remain so until people who talk a lot of smack, stop talking and do something beside flap their gums.

Karen7cd

01-03-2010, 08:23 PM

You are hot, pretty and cool, the right person will come along, just be you.

sempervirens

01-03-2010, 09:39 PM

Wow, this got feisty, lol. She thought he knew, whether or not she should have told him is moot, isn't it?

Are you in fact a transexual? Are you out there living it 24/7 ? Or do you have the luxury of running home and changing into your drabs when you get frightened, or appearing in your drabs so that you don't have to feel the scorn of your friends ,loved ones or neighbors? Do you wear your girly clothes when you are at the pulpit? I do live it 24/7 365, and I don't have the luxury of changing into my drabs, or calling off of work because I am insecure or frightened. The mere fact that I am out there living it everyday amongst the detractors and those who would discriminate should tell you that I do not accept it. What do you really know about it other than what you read? When is the last time you were discriminated against when you were just trying to do your job, or make your way from point a to point b?
I've experienced some of the things Kara has, too, but I don't think turning the thread into "trannier than thou" is too helpful :hugs:

Kelly, you've said that some here are looking out for only themseves and lack fairness, but you've said on multiple threads that you don't feel obligated to give back to the community. I wouldn't dispute that, as you say, you do give back, but how do these viewpoints mesh? Not trying to make waves, just curious :love:

Joy Carter

01-03-2010, 09:59 PM

With some of the comments here,aren't you glad that we can't we can't give them :thumbsdn: or :thumbsup:. Wait I guess we can ! LoL

Really, if you are a TS, and you don't tell a guy who you are then you really deserve what comes. I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings, but be real, have some respect for others feelings.

Sharon

01-03-2010, 10:18 PM

Really, if you are a TS, and you don't tell a guy who you are then you really deserve what comes. I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings, but be real, have some respect for others feelings.

Wow! What a bowl of sunshine you are! A TS deserves what comes to them if they don't fully disclose? They deserve any retribution? Any?

Go away.:Angry3:

Zenith

01-03-2010, 10:42 PM

Joy I think what Sharon was trying to say, there have been more than a few very brutal murders of transwomen. Transgender awareness day was last November and the number worldwide has doubled from the previous year...this is very real to us...:sad:

I do my best to be out there and show people we are women in mind, spirit, and (with help) body. I have given many scientific talks as Julie, and one on transgender issues. I think it's important to continue the work so that society doesn't see us as males that become females, but females with a wrong body.

I think if someone truly loves you then trans can be worked around, and it has in many loving relationships...look at Jenny Boylan. About the only real dealbreaker is that we have to admit before a commitment as we can never bear children, a husband must know that...:sad:

kellycan27

01-03-2010, 11:54 PM

Wow, this got feisty, lol. She thought he knew, whether or not she should have told him is moot, isn't it?

I've experienced some of the things Kara has, too, but I don't think turning the thread into "trannier than thou" is too helpful :hugs:

Kelly, you've said that some here are looking out for only themselves and lack fairness, but you've said on multiple threads that you don't feel obligated to give back to the community. I wouldn't dispute that, as you say, you do give back, but how do these viewpoints mesh? Not trying to make waves, just curious :love:

Whether or not she told him isn't relevant in the instance of it just being a sex thing. nobody is disputing that, it's whether or not to disclose the info in the event of a LTR. I think that I made that perfectly clear in almost every post in this thread.

It's not about being "trannier" as much as being a transsexual at all. I am being accused of discriminating against "we trannies" by someone who doesn't appear to to be a transsexual. Why? Because I am not in arms over the guys statement? I don't agree with how he worded it ( and stated such).
As a transsexual I have personally experienced just that exact type of attitude from str8 guys, and I said that as ugly as it sounds it is truly how a lot of men think and whether you sugar coat it or say it quite bluntly..it's the truth. Someone may say that they have never been shot, but they can imagine what it's like. I am pretty sure that the one who has actually been shot has a much better perspective than the one can "just imagine", so I ask what is your experience, are you in fact experiencing it in you daily life and facing it head on or can you change your clothes and be safe? How can that person judge me until they have walked in my shoes? basically.
The reference you make to "looking out for yourself " was in regards to two people in a relationship... not as in a group.
I never said that I thought anything was fair or unfair.. just that it is what it is.. whether it be fair or unfair.
I will address your comments in regards to my not owing anything to the cause via PM as it is not relevant to the OP

kellycan27

01-04-2010, 12:03 AM

Hope

01-04-2010, 12:31 AM

Are you in fact a transexual? Are you out there living it 24/7 ? Or do you have the luxury of running home and changing into your drabs when you get frightened, or appearing in your drabs so that you don't have to feel the scorn of your friends ,loved ones or neighbors? Do you wear your girly clothes when you are at the pulpit? I do live it 24/7 365, and I don't have the luxury of changing into my drabs, or calling off of work because I am insecure or frightened.

Oh I see, so I'm not transexual enough for you. Nice. Or as you have eluded to in another post, not really a transexual at all. It's true that I am not nearly as far along as you are, but it's really quite irrelevant and I have no intention of justifying myself to you.

I find it amusing that you want to turn it around on me, like I am the one who discriminates.

Yeah. Wonder where I got that idea.

Zenith

01-04-2010, 12:52 AM

So you believe that our only obligation to a prospective mate would be to disclose the fact that we can't reproduce? His freedom to choose whether or not he wants to be married to a transsexual is irrelevant, because the transperson is a woman? When he asks why we can't have children do we add another little
white lie into the mix?

Will you please stop editing your entire question while I am answering the first? :straightface:

kellycan27

01-04-2010, 01:30 AM

Oh I see, so I'm not transexual enough for you. Nice. Or as you have eluded to in another post, not really a transexual at all. It's true that I am not nearly as far along as you are, but it's really quite irrelevant and I have no intention of justifying myself to you.

Yeah. Wonder where I got that idea.

I don't know you and i did ask you twice, since you didn't answer I assumed that you are not. A lot of people do a lot of talking about others should do, but when it comes down to doing anything about it that's where it ends.
Stand at your pulpit fully en femme in front of your congregation and give your sermon, like I stand in front of my fellow employees, friends, family and strangers. Stand in the face of discrimination and spit in it's eye. It's not about who's further along, it's about a person's willingness to stand up to adversity, not just sit back and complain about how unfair it all is. Stand up at your pulpit in your finest frock and wig, and tell the people that it isn't right to disciminate, and then come and tell me that I am not being supportive. .

kellycan27

01-04-2010, 01:36 AM

Will you please stop editing your entire question while I am answering the first? :straightface:

Sorry Julie, my bad. I was agreeing with you until I read the part where you said that our only pre-commitment obligation was to disclose the fact that we can't have kids. At least that was the way it sounded, so I wanted you to clarify...sorry, I promise to keep quiet until you answer..if you would in fact care to.:straightface:

kellycan27

01-04-2010, 02:19 AM

TBPH this thread has ceased to be productive.( for me anyway) I think that we can all agree that kara was well within her rights to not disclose the fact that she is a TS for the porpose of just a sexual encounter.
Some of you believe that she is also under no obligation to disclose the facts to a prospective mate. I happen to be of he opinion that it would be the right thing to do, but that's just me. I really can't say that i am shocked or even surprised that some people have this attitude because how many times has being honest with ones SO come up with the cder's? Even after countless relationships end in break ups or divorce the question still pops up on a regular basis.. should I tell my wife or SO? I guess that some people just have to learn the hard way. I am not saying that you are wrong and I am right,rather that there is nothing wrong with being honest and up front with your SO and in doing so it would probably lead to a more happy and satisfying relationship. Nothing good can come from keeping secrets. I am outta here!

Joy Carter

01-08-2010, 05:16 PM

Wow! What a bowl of sunshine you are! A TS deserves what comes to them if they don't fully disclose? They deserve any retribution? Any?

Go away.:Angry3:

Did I say any names Sharon, or are we just being to sensitive ? Some girls think that it's fine, to fool as guy, and that they are a homophobic if the guy objects. That quite honestly is mean and irresponsible. Do I wish the worst on anyone ? Absolutely not. But be real, if you rob as bank you take the consequences.

BTW: I have as much right being here as anyone. Or not ?

Hope

01-08-2010, 08:51 PM

Did I say any names Sharon, or are we just being to sensitive ? Some girls think that it's fine, to fool as guy, and that they are a homophobic if the guy objects. That quite honestly is mean and irresponsible. Do I wish the worst on anyone ? Absolutely not. But be real, if you rob as bank you take the consequences.

BTW: I have as much right being here as anyone. Or not ?

I guess it depends on wether or not you think a TS girl is really a woman or not. Obviously you do not.

Either way I don't think it is fair to equate being TS with a a felony. And I don't think that it is acceptable to brutalize or kill someone who misleads you - even if the person who misleads you happens to be TS. Those are the consequences we are talking about. And call me a bigot if you must, but I do think that anyone who feels differently has no right to be here - but I don't make the rules.

GypsyKaren

01-08-2010, 10:24 PM

Whatever Kara did or didn't/should or shouldn't do is her choice to make and no one else's business or concern, so I think it's time for some here to send the judicial robes off to the cleaners and stick to the original topic...and this isn't a request.

Karen :g1:

Michelle_cd65

01-08-2010, 11:29 PM

I would have no problem dating a ts woman.

kristyk

01-09-2010, 11:50 AM

It's really to bad this thread went as far South as it did. I found reading the issues that Kara was dealing with to be such a learning experience for me. I was happy for her, understanding, sad for her as well and not sure what I would do if I was in her place. I also came away with an understanding I could only get from a person that transitioned fully in the main stream public.

If I can say anything to Kara or to others like herself who may think twice about posting such a thread again. Dont let the judemental posts scare you from posting your real life experiences it helps some of us more than you will ever know. Reading the real life situation Kara was in after her transition to a transwoman and what decsions she had to make on the spur of the moment when her desire took over and her heart was saying yes, I'm not sure that's an easy decision to make for anyone.

KristyK

Blaire

01-11-2010, 06:41 AM

One thing this experience suggests to me is that, if an experienced straight guy can spend ten minutes in daylight between my legs without realizing that I'm transgender, there is no significant physical difference at this point between me and any other random "genetic" woman lumbering around the mall... the difference is in the straight male brain, not necessarily in our beautiful transgender female bodies.

Part of the drive for guys is to propegate the species. Maybe he's a neanderthal, and maybe he's not. Maybe he's anti-something, and maybe he's not. Lost in the discussion so far (I'm only on page 4!) is that in this case, he knows up front that he can't continue his line - so why try (again)? Concious thought, instinctual feeling, or phobia laden jerk, it doesn't really matter - that part of "being a man" is lost. The strength of that drive has an impact, as much as does being a neanderthal.

That's about the only reason to "have to" disclose that you're a TS too. Your future hubby really doesn't want to hear it from the fertility clinic, any more than some of the guys on other parts of this forum don't want their wives to find the box in the back of the file cabinet.

So you believe that our only obligation to a prospective mate would be to disclose the fact that we can't reproduce? His freedom to choose whether or not he wants to be married to a transsexual is irrelevant, because the transperson is a woman? When he asks why we can't have children do we add another little
white lie into the mix?

In truth, isn't reproduction the only difference? Other than that, are you not physically, mentally, emotionally, and legally a woman? Couldn't "why" be put in the same bin as "how many others have you had before me?"

Tiffanycd

01-11-2010, 10:35 AM

Hello Kara you are a beautiful woman and Ok maybe i am an odd ball but yes i am a straight guy and i am a long time crossdresser and i am not into men and after some time i can come to term with the fast that is who i am.
Back to my point what is in the past is the past it's not what is now and what and why i say i am a odd ball is i have seen a lot of transgender women that i find vary attractive i don't know is it me or was i wrong in thinking everyone! had feeling and know like there feelings hurt i guess most people just don't get it.

Tiffanycd

KaraChristine

01-11-2010, 04:03 PM

Actually I don't think that discrimination is acceptable, but the truth of the matter is that it's out there and we have to deal with it on a daily basis....

...It hurts, and also believe that what we once were shouldn't matter, but the sad truth if that it does in deed matter as witnessed by myself, Kara, and I am sure countless others. It's not something that you have to accept, but it is something that you have to live with. And I am sure that it will remain so until people who talk a lot of smack, stop talking and do something beside flap their gums.

I actually agree with what Kelly said here - as we all eventually realize there is a lot of ignorance about trans people out there.

I guess for me personally, the best I can do is just be out there publicly and be myself. I'm a flight attendant and I interact extensively with 350 passengers at a time when I go to work. A lot of them don't seem to realize I'm trans, but I'm sure a lot of them also do. That's where the attitudes change, because they see that I'm the same as any other woman - looking good sometimes and smiling and flirting - tired and crabby and fugly at other times. And NOT A MONSTER or a "Silence of the Lambs" serial killer, just a real person like anybody else.

One thing that probably remains in people's minds when they see me at work is that here's a transsexual woman, someone who they've been raised to think of as a dirty joke and a marginal crazy figure. But she's in a respected position of authority - actually ORDERING them to fasten their seat belts and turn off the cell phone! That must be a mind changing experience for a lot of them and I'm actually proud if I can at least make a difference in that little way.

All the dating trauma and the "does he or doesn't he know, how should I tell him" stuff gets put in perspective when I remember that just being trans, surviving and attempting to live and be happy is still a powerful statement to the world by itself... :daydreaming:

Kaitlyn Michele

01-11-2010, 07:28 PM

IF I am ever lucky enough to find myself in the situation where I am with a guy and we are flirting I would be very uncomfortable with not telling him.
Would I consider sexual relations at all before telling him?...I don't think so.

Our mantra of I'm a woman dammit is right for us. It is incredibly meaningful and frankly many of us have given up alot to live our dream and be able to say those words AND feel good about saying them, really really feeling the truth of it...so we are totally compelled to be that woman with our partner
why wouldnt we be?

assuming the partner is a guy, switch it and consider how important it is to a straight guy it is that his love interest is a woman.. lots and lots of people are homophobic...but even more are just straight , plain ole straight.....
he doesnt have all the info or understanding of our situation, he probably has never ever considered whether he is willing to be with a woman that has transitioned...i gotta cut the guy some slack..saying he doesnt want to be with me anymore would hurt terribly, but i can't then say he's phobic in any way.

we can debate why I'm right and I'm a woman, and why he's wrong in calling me anything but a woman...but that's not gonna change how most guys will feel...and unfortunately for us, many will feel decieved, and many will not agree (especially in the heat of the moment) that we truly are women..

This seems like a huge gap in understanding that is still prevalent in our worlds and it totally sucks for us, its a tough issue with no easy answer.

i come out that I am gonna tell, and I just hope someday I have a chance to see if I practice what I preach..

kellycan27

01-11-2010, 09:40 PM

Thank you Kaitlyn Michele.

KaraChristine

01-12-2010, 01:05 AM

Here we go again....

An online exchange I had today:

Jan. 11, 2010 – 3:21pm
Hi Kara,
over the weeks on here, this site, your photo keeps cycling in front of me, so I thought I'd write to you...Your photos are seductive, and you've probably been told that you're very sexy! so,...do you fly all over the world with your job? where do you travel the most? Do you find it a satisfying career? How long to yo get to stay at home and enjoy the weather in Las Vegas? I'm in a small town near Boulder...It's nice here in the summer...but the winter is pretty shitty in fact...write me back if you want to,...I'd like to correspond a little if you do!
****

Jan. 11, 2010 – 4:14pm
Hey ****, thanks for the message.
I love the area around Boulder. I thought about going to Naropa once but NYU won out. You're lucky to live in such a beautiful place.
Vegas is an interesting place, too much at times but I'm gone about 20 days a month so it's a good balance.
Stay warm and cozy,
Kara

Jan. 11, 2010 – 7:16pm
I did not see you are a transsexual at first. You should be more up front about that and put it more obviously on your profile. Good bye.
****

Jan. 11, 2010 – 8:44pm
It's in the first section of my profile, Einstein.
I have 36D breasts and a vagina (which you'll never see) and a better body than 90% of the women you've slept with. So if you're that much of an insecure wimp to let my history bother you then I'm glad I found out now.
Good bye to you too.
Kara

This is the first thing you see on my profile:

"When I was 4 years old I insisted to my parents that I was a little girl, they disagreed ;-) That's all cleared up now and I'm a post-op transsexual woman who's proud of her courageous history. "

Six months ago this kind of nonsense would have had me crying and upset. I was listening to all the "reasonable" people who said that it's only "natural" for guys to lust after me until they find out I'm transsexual then run away in horror. I'm finally getting to the point where I'm fed up with pathetic losers who are scared of me because of my history. As I said to "****", I have breasts & a vagina and when I wake up in the morning and look in the mirror, this is what I see:

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp146/karachristine/wildkaracopy.jpg

I suffered long and hard my entire life and finally had the courage to express myself as the woman I'VE ALWAYS BEEN. Obviously it's someone's choice if they want to date me or not, but it always comes down to BLAMING me for not hanging a sign around my neck that says, "DANGER - TRANSSEXUAL - RUN AWAY".

I'm gonna be brutal and blunt here and say it: it's not my fault if a guy is too insecure about his masculinity to accept that he found me attractive. I'm honest to everyone about exactly who I am, but it's not my responsibility to be 100% sure that everyone I meet knows my entire life history before we ever speak. My body is totally female in every way and now matches my mind, if someone is too dense to understand that then it's their fault and not mine.

It would obviously be cruel to force a woman who's lost 120 lbs. to immediately tell every guy she meets, "Before we go any further, I used to be morbidly obese" - it's bringing up pain, misery and rejection from her past that she's entitled to forget and preventing her from fully enjoying her new, slim, beautiful sexy self. THAT'S how I feel right now - how the heck does everyone think they have the right to force me to bring up my painful, miserable past constantly?

GypsyKaren

01-12-2010, 06:47 AM

Regarding your post, if you haven't figured it out 95% of guys are un-dateable. This is a b/s number based on his b/s number, but really most of them, sadly, ARE useless.

Thank you. I always hate to generalize so I've avoided saying this, but let's face it, most men are assholes who aren't worth a sack of beans. And before some of you start jumping down my throat, I know there's some real gems out there, and I'm sure your Uncle Ted was one hell of a guy, but seriously now, most are completely worthless and cause more problems than they're worth.

Kara, you did nothing wrong, you're living your life, you're the one in the trenches who has to make the calls, you just keep doing what you think is best for you because you don't have to answer to anyone else.

Karen :g1:

kellycan27

01-13-2010, 04:18 AM

That's about the only reason to "have to" disclose that you're a TS too. Your future hubby really doesn't want to hear it from the fertility clinic, any more than some of the guys on other parts of this forum don't want their wives to find the box in the back of the file cabinet.

In truth, isn't reproduction the only difference? Other than that, are you not physically, mentally, emotionally, and legally a woman? Couldn't "why" be put in the same bin as "how many others have you had before me?"

Technically true, but men are odd ducks. Nobody is saying that Kara has to do or not do, it's her personal choice. I am only stating my opinion, and I would disclose if I met someone that I thought that I might want to engage in a long term relationship. I would hate to have it come back and bite me in the rear sometime down the road after I have invested time,energy and or gotten myself emotionally involved.
Add to the equation your personal safety..... Just because we may feel that the only difference is our inability to reproduce, doesn't mean that everyone one is going to see it that same way, and in fact may react violently.
How things should be and how things really in the real world are quite different. I tried to make this point earlier in this thread and was accused of discriminating against transsexuals, and inferring that I was "more" TS than someone. The truth of the matter is that I am more TS than my accuser in as much as I, like Kara am out there living as a TS 24/7 and face the same difficulties as she does, rather than just being a closet TS. And I am not saying that a closet TS is any less TS, only that they don't have the same issues to deal with in the mainstream. I think it wonderful that a lot of you are showing your support, but I honestly have to say that I think some of you are in denial if you believe that disclosure is not important.(not an absolute must, but none the less important) Kara has already cited a couple of instances where when the truth of the matter has come out, it obviously ( right or wrong) made a difference.
Suffice to say that disclosure is a double edged sword for us as it can cut either way, and sadly it more often than not cuts us.
I totally agree that Kara shouldn't have to disclose, and I personally think that any guy who would walk away from her is a total idiot. Discrimination, and prejudice are 1000% wrong, but be that as it may, it's out there, and it's something that we have to deal with.

GypsyKaren

01-13-2010, 09:08 AM

There's been a lot of sniping and word twisting going on in this thread that had better stop, keep it civil or stay out.

Karen

carolinoakland

01-13-2010, 09:44 AM

yeah, what Karen said...

Annaliese

01-13-2010, 10:14 AM

From what I see there loss, there will be someone rember a princess has to kiss a lot of frogs before she find her prince.

Hugs Annaliese

gracee

01-13-2010, 04:32 PM

There's been a lot of sniping and word twisting going on in this thread that had better stop, keep it civil or stay out.
Karen

And if I may add a word (certain to be unpopular): Enough with the man-bashing too! "Neanderthal"... "homophobic"... "shallow"... Lordy! When I am a man I think as a man, and as a man I have feelings too (indeed have been encouraged by the female tribe to have them) and if I feel nervous, upset, unhappy, distressed by the thought or experience of my male friends dressing up and behaving as women, then I say, that's my own damn right! I'm a sensitive dude. ;-)

For the record, I have dressed up for numerous (curious) male friends and not a one of them has become unfriendly later. One went out walking with me, another even danced with me. They were having fun. After all, guys just want to have fun!

Plasibeau

01-13-2010, 06:56 PM

And if I may add a word (certain to be unpopular): Enough with the man-bashing too! "Neanderthal"... "homophobic"... "shallow"... Lordy! When I am a man I think as a man, and as a man I have feelings too (indeed have been encouraged by the female tribe to have them) and if I feel nervous, upset, unhappy, distressed by the thought or experience of my male friends dressing up and behaving as women, then I say, that's my own damn right! I'm a sensitive dude. ;-)

For the record, I have dressed up for numerous (curious) male friends and not a one of them has become unfriendly later. One went out walking with me, another even danced with me. They were having fun. After all, guys just want to have fun!

I would have to agree, with what she said but to add my :2c: we're forgetting the psychology of the the entire situation. Because of social conditioning, especially dealing with a binary sex society, a man or woman is going to look at a man or woman and expect that is what all they see. Yes, as a transsexual we do have the right to keep our horrid pasts at bay; but at the same time who are we to be angry when a person is confronted with the unexpected?

Kara, you're beautiful darling. And I know a few guys who would trip over their own toungs if they ever met you. But unfortunatly they almost kill themselves running away once they found out that you were born with a birth defect. Not because they're homophobic or bad men. But because it complete screws with what they've been taught is feminine and what isn't. So what it really comes down is social conditioning and well thats just my humble opinion.