What kind of abuse do the men put up with?

[Nicole Erin]

As we know, us trans girls who either don't pass or are otherwise known to be TG catch a lot of things like "OMG that's a dude!" or "fag" or whatever from strangers.

Family tends to act stupid about it like for me "but you are such a good looking man..."

Or, the GG's just don't really treat us like we are one of them.

What challenges do the FTM's have to deal with?

Somehow I always believed the FTMs had things easier but I have heard the contrary, so what about it? Just curious

[Kieron Andrew]

i've had plenty of genetic men not treat me as male, and some very rudely too...

i've had comments like 'when you become a man'....ive also had 'why would you want to become a man because you are such a pretty girl'....ive even had some people say 'i'll never see you as a man even when you have facial hair'....i get the same things as some of my mtf friends like being called ma'am in restaurants and shops where i have to constantly correct people, i think FtMs and MtFs share the same challenges in life, just in a different way

[4serrus]

Condescention is a big one. There are people who think it's 'cute' how we're 'trying to be macho' and some think we can't possibly be male because we're 'just girls' and there's a lot of sexism involved. There's also the feminists who say we're 'betraying our gender'.

[Hope]

It's a little off topic, but...

Let me assure you that you don't have to be FTM to hear about not really being a man. Everyone who was born with a pens has to put up with that, and there is a good measure of truth to it. Having a penis makes a person "male," physically at least, but being male and being a man are two distinctly different things. Honestly being a man has a LOT less to do with a beard, drinking beer, driving a truck, being a womanizer, or being macho than a lot of males think it does; in fact, in almost every case, those things are indicators that one is NOT a man.

You want to be a man? Devote yourself to something larger than yourself. Work hard, but don't seek recognition for it. Sacrifice for the benefit of others. Seek excellence. Challenge yourself - not others. Be fearless, but not reckless, or just stupid. Be unfailingly generous and kind to others. Be well educated, well spoken, and well mannered. Don't be afraid to get dirty, but unless you are getting dirty - be clean. Be disciplined. Don't brag. Read some Hemingway - that guy was a pro, Kipling won't hurt you either.

[4serrus]

Ugh, I hate Hemmingway.

[Thornton]

I've got people who think who I am is funny...or entertaining to watch...

I get a lot of "You'll never be a real man", but I just laugh at them, because, who the **** are they to tell me what a real man is? I know what a real man is, and it's me.

[Nicole Erin]

Wow guys, it sounds like it is not much different for our brothers.

One thing I don't quite get though -
OK, GM's might seem to treat FTM like they are less than, but GG's aren't quite as bad when it comes to how they normally treat MTF.

And for ANY gender, isn't it nice that there will always be someone telling you that you are not a "real" man/woman, kind of like what Hope said

[DanielMacBride]

All of the above that the other boys have said - I have had the "why on earth would you want to become a man, you were such a pretty girl!" from across the board (family and non-family); I constantly get "you will never be a man" (usually with "...because you will never have a penis" tacked on the end) and the whole condescending/patronising attitude of "aww, how cute, look at you trying so hard to be a man".

Also the "you're not a real man" thing, and people who despite being able to identify me as male by the way I look, insist on pointing out all the "less than male" characteristics they think I have (such as being compassionate or considerate, and pretty much anything that doesn't fit the "men are all ignorant, inconsiderate boofheads" stereotype). Never mind that cisgendered people cross these stereotypical boundaries every day, but people don't even NOTICE it, BECAUSE they are cisgendered.

Like 4serrus I have also encountered a lot of lesbians and feminists who have called me a traitor and basically abused me for "switching camps" or "betraying my gender". I have also been told that because I am a man, I CAN'T be a feminist o.O

As for Hemingway and Kipling....I think to some extent even they are buying into the stereotypes of what makes a man. My biggest role model for the kind of man I want to be is John Butler (the musician). He's very masculine but in a kind of...feline way I guess is the best way to describe it (if you see a picture of him you will understand what I mean), but he's a totally devoted husband and family man, a vocal environmental, political and social activist, a humanitarian, and has started a foundation to support up and coming independent young musicians out of the money he has made from his career. He's an all-round damn nice guy, too.

I have found so far that the worst sexism and stuff I have encountered has actually come from MtFs - GMs tend to be pretty accepting of me for the most part (with the notable exception of those in my family who have a bee in their bonnet about me somehow threatening their masculinity or SOMETHING lol) and GGs usually don't have a problem - I do notice that sometimes I get treated a bit differently by GGs than the bio guys do (and yes, it has to do with me having been raised and socialised female because I understand girls better than bio guys do and because it seems that the girls feel more comfortable around me than they do around bio guys because I treat them differently to the way most of the bio guys do). I don't have a problem with that though because I see it as a social advantage, if anything.

Of course there are a few exceptions - there have been a few (straight) GGs who have been quite rude and sexist toward me, but for the most part I find that once people SEE me and actually start talking to me, they don't question my masculinity in the slightest. Even when I am teased sometimes for being a "fag boy" or whatever by my friends lol, they all seem to have the ability to recognise that I am definitely a man, just a very broadly defined one who is comfortable with having the ability and the scope to skate all over the male side of the gender spectrum ;)

I think it comes down to what Thornton said, who is anyone else to tell us who we are or what a "real" man is? If we are comfortable with our own masculinity and we KNOW that's who we are, that's what counts - and nobody else's opinion should change that level of comfort and knowledge of our identity. I also like to think that FtMs are kind of a "new breed" of man - in the sense that we have the privilege of being able to SEE the BS around gender indoctrination and pick and choose to an extent which parts of that we want to keep and which to discard to shape ourselves into the kind of man we WANT to be, rather than being dictated to by society as to what THEY think we should be.

[Ze]

Yeah, I can pretty much only repeat everything that's been said already.

-Being mocked.
-Being told we don't exist.
-Viewed as being "cute" because we're "trying" to be guys.
-Being rejected by certain feminist groups because we're "betrayers of our gender."
-Being told we'll never "really" be men.
-Being viewed as a "dyke."
-Being asked such things as "Why do you want to get rid of your beautiful body?" or "But you're such a pretty girl! It'll be such a loss/waste!"
-Being given advice on how to be a man when it wasn't asked for.
-Not being taken as seriously as MtFs.
-Having our issues minimized with various excuses.
-Despite all this, being told we "have it easier."

I think that last one may be the one that hurts the most when coming from within the TG community itself. Actually, any of the above statements hurt even more when said to you within the trans community. It can seriously make you feel like everybody is rejecting you or minimizing your problems. You don't even find solace with the group of people that's supposed to get you. Yet they're going through the exact same things! It gets so maddening sometimes that you don't even want to think about it.

[NiCo]

Well, first of all, we either get labelled “lesbians” even if we like men…or confused, of course, the classic confused!

My family always said “but you were a model, a beautiful girl” no. I was a beautiful boy who presented as female because I had little choice.

Every partner I have had has wanted me as something I am not. They thought they could “turn me back into a girl” haha, haha, hahaaaaa…you can’t turn someone into something they weren’t beforehand. I’ve had lesbians pretend to like men, pretend to ID as bisexual to attempt to get with me. I’ve had men think I am less than them.

“When you become a man” yeah had that Kieron. Idiots, eh? OR! “I know you were a woman before” LOLAGE! I’ve had men ask me what size my chest is, if I have been “tampered with” erm, I’m not electronic you know?! [And other disgusting stuff]

BUT!, this is my favourite, said to me by a transwoman “you should be grateful with what you have cause I’d kill for your body, why get rid of it?” or “why would you want to be a man?”

-cripples laughing-

Oh and I had a lesbian spike me and attack me because I told her I was a male and she didn’t like that because I was a “traitor to women” =/ right…okay…

My previous girlfriend was domestically violent and knew she could get away with it because she had forced me to burn all bridges with my family, then started the physical and then AFTER saying all this bullsh*t about wanting me to feel what she felt sexually [as in touching me, WHAT?!] and then I got angry she said I couldn’t shout at her or hit her cause I was a man and it wasn’t allowed…I wouldn’t have hit her but wtf? LMAO…

I have more but it gets more and more violent and I am in a good mood right now so don’t really want to anger myself thinking about it.

We all get it tough, on both sides, everyone can encounter this sh*t, sexism whatever…but that is only a few examples of personal insults. I have received offensive comments from males, females and people from the whole LGBT “scene”. I’m sure MtFs get equal amounts of crap.

[Faith_G]

BUT!, this is my favourite, said to me by a transwoman “you should be grateful with what you have cause I’d kill for your body, why get rid of it?”:eek: What a clueless, self-centered, and idiotic thing to say! If anybody ought to understand, it's another trans person. :Angry3: I'm curious, was she THAT self-centered or did she just have the IQ of a fence post?

[Nicole Erin]

Wow, you gents here sound to actually have things a bit worse than us women.

Look guys, Don't let anyone tell you that you are "not real men"

For people in the trans community seeming to reject, I think that is common for all TG folks. I once was friends with this TS woman years ago who said she didn't want to see me en femme, it is like "are you for real?"

Hey look at some of the advantages the FTM's have - they look like younger men than what they might actually be. :thumbsup:

Ya know, on this board, I have yet to see an FTM who didn't pass as male very convincingly. I know we hate the word "pass" but for lack of better terms.

You guys are quite strong. It takes a real man to put up with this kind of crap. Me, being MTF, while I can relate to the same things, it is breaking me down quite fast.

I love being told I am/was a "good looking man". Yeah thanks but no thanks.
Erin

[SirTrey]

Guess I will add to the list here....well.....I was told by My mother (as she was informing Me that I was being kicked out of My family) that I "killed her daughter" and "made Myself ugly" because I "used to be beautiful" and have now "ruined Myself"....I have been told that I am crazy...that I will never be a man because I don't have a penis....When I inform people that T does, in FACT, change your genitals, I have actually had people ask if they could SEE it ( I am not kidding)....as well as most of what the other guys have written here...and these are the things that come to mind off the top of My head...There are a lot of examples of problems that we face at all stages of transition and beyond....It's not an easy road, that's for sure....but, for Me, there IS no price too high to pay to be who I am....and being willing to pay that price and keep on fighting the good fight IS being a man. :thumbsup::drink:

[Jenny Chen]

My previous girlfriend was domestically violent and knew she could get away with it because she had forced me to burn all bridges with my family, then started the physical and then AFTER saying all this bullsh*t about wanting me to feel what she felt sexually [as in touching me, WHAT?!] and then I got angry she said I couldn’t shout at her or hit her cause I was a man and it wasn’t allowed…I wouldn’t have hit her but wtf? LMAO…

Wow... just wow... :eek:



:eek: What a clueless, self-centered, and idiotic thing to say! If anybody ought to understand, it's another trans person. :Angry3: I'm curious, was she THAT self-centered or did she just have the IQ of a fence post?

Fence post sounds about right, but than that would be a insult to fence posts. But yeah too many self centered people i today society to the point where it makes me sick.

Oh well guess we'll just have to make the best out of what we can get. :straightface:

[sexotik]

For people in the trans community seeming to reject, I think that is common for all TG folks. I once was friends with this TS woman years ago who said she didn't want to see me en femme, it is like "are you for real?"

Hey look at some of the advantages the FTM's have - they look like younger men than what they might actually be. :thumbsup:


I think that you'd expect other trans people to accept you since we're on the same boat. At least this is what I believed.I've heard gay men say they hated when cisgendered/straight people discriminated against them, yet some of them even discriminated against transvestites.

I think that when non-trans people see a a person born as a male in a dress or a person born female at birth with short hair and girly features, they immediately bracket the former with gay men and the latter with lesbians.

Those who define somebody's sexuality just by looking at how they look, talk or walk are very prone to skate on thin ice.

We don't have to let those comments, giggles or stares bring us down. They can't hold us down.



... I have actually had people ask if they could SEE it ( I am not kidding)....as well as most of what the other guys have written here...and these are the things that come to mind off the top of My head...There are a lot of examples of problems that we face at all stages of transition and beyond....It's not an easy road, that's for sure....but, for Me, there IS no price too high to pay to be who I am....and being willing to pay that price and keep on fighting the good fight IS being a man. :thumbsup::drink:

Trey, perhaps some people when they asked you if they could see your genitals mightn't have meant badly yet they obviously failed to see that people don't go about life asking other to show their intimate parts. Curiosity was stronger than common sense.

[Barbara Jo]

Years ago, at a bar I used to hang out at, there was a guy who was a bit homophobic.
He just seemed to make too many gay jokes and put down (in a somewhat friendly, not realy threatening mannor) anyone he thought might be gay, etc.

However, one day a someone who I suspected) might be a transmam stated coming to the bar.

Long story short.... he started going balistic on the transman.

To me he seemd to be really threatened by him and it went to the core of his masculinity. In his mind If a woman can act like and become a man, it diminished his mascilinity.
In other words the a-hole was insecure about his own masculinty and he was confronted by it whenever the transman was around
I suspect this is a common reason for transman bashing.

[Crissy Kay]

Wow, what an eye opener!! I am really sorry you guys have to put up all that BS. The view from the other side of the hill in a way. Most of the time I read what other cds do to pass. But its tough to see what you guys have to put up with. All I can say is good luck and stick with it. Hopefully things will change for the better for you.

[giuseppina]

...
My previous girlfriend was domestically violent and knew she could get away with it because she had forced me to burn all bridges with my family, then started the physical and then AFTER saying all this bullsh*t about wanting me to feel what she felt sexually [as in touching me, WHAT?!] and then I got angry she said I couldn’t shout at her or hit her cause I was a man and it wasn’t allowed…I wouldn’t have hit her but wtf? LMAO…

This is not unique to those who are gender variant. Last I heard, about 7% of relationships are abusive.

According to my psychiatrist, abusers rarely admit to having a problem unless they are convicted of an abuse-related offence in a court of law, and even then, there are no guarantees.

If the only way to stop the abuse is breaking all contact, so be it.

[Bridget Fitzgerald]

It's a little off topic, but...

Let me assure you that you don't have to be FTM to hear about not really being a man. Everyone who was born with a pens has to put up with that, and there is a good measure of truth to it. Having a penis makes a person "male," physically at least, but being male and being a man are two distinctly different things. Honestly being a man has a LOT less to do with a beard, drinking beer, driving a truck, being a womanizer, or being macho than a lot of males think it does; in fact, in almost every case, those things are indicators that one is NOT a man.

You want to be a man? Devote yourself to something larger than yourself. Work hard, but don't seek recognition for it. Sacrifice for the benefit of others. Seek excellence. Challenge yourself - not others. Be fearless, but not reckless, or just stupid. Be unfailingly generous and kind to others. Be well educated, well spoken, and well mannered. Don't be afraid to get dirty, but unless you are getting dirty - be clean. Be disciplined. Don't brag. Read some Hemingway - that guy was a pro, Kipling won't hurt you either.

Don't you find it a bit ironic that on a sight where we struggle against gender stereotyping to take it upon yourself to define what constitutes being a man? Just sayin'

[DanielMacBride]

To me he seemd to be really threatened by him and it went to the core of his masculinity. In his mind If a woman can act like and become a man, it diminished his mascilinity.
In other words the a-hole was insecure about his own masculinty and he was confronted by it whenever the transman was around


I second this observation, I have noticed that a lot of bio guys seem to be very insecure about their masculinity around me and act accordingly - it's like I am treading on their sacred turf or something lol, you know, "only XY men can be masculine and you're trespassing on MY territory!" I have never been physically attacked yet, but verbally, yes, a lot. They seem to feel a need to belittle me and bring me down to their level to make themselves feel like more of a man. If I am in a group of bio guys who don't KNOW that I am trans, it isn't a problem, but if I'm in a space where it's common knowledge (like a trans-friendly pub for example), the bio guys (with the exception for some reason of the majority of gay men, not sure why that is but I suspect it's because they are often not stereotypically masculine so are less threatened by someone else's expression of masculinity?) can be really nasty.

[AmandaM]

A lot of this is because guys size each other up. Especially, young ones. You have to act right, talk right, look right. Once you pass the unspoken criteria, they relax around you. You have to comport yourself like you are already a member of the club. I remember one time, I went into a long-haired, quasi-biker bar dressed in corporate gear from my job. Guys bumped into me walking by me, looked at me funny, etc. The very next time I came in I had on blue jeans, boots, and a black t-shirt. This time, I was given space while walking by, etc.! I was one of them. Hmmmm....I guess transguys have to worry about passing too.

[Andy66]

Thank you, gentlemen, for sharing your experiences. It is indeed an eye-opener.
Good on ya for patiently educating those of us what need educatin'.

I think sometimes people mean well, but might say something stupid unintentionally because they don't understand who you are. It's in our animal natures to at least somewhat go by first impressions. It's a survival instinct... but some people take it way too far and never get to know the individual. And then some people are just jerks. :(

[Kitty Sue]

I find this really interesting. I had ignorantly assumed that FtM would have an easier time than MtF. I was certainly wrong. It seems we all get treated rather horridly at times. Well at least we all have one another to talk to.:hugs:

[Thornton]

yeah, it's not easier. It's equally hard in different ways....

I thought of something the other day. Has anyone ever had to deal with being called "it"? That's another one I've learned to watch out for...

[sexotik]

I think this is somehow related but I've perceived that some straight people think that trans people (tv's and MtF cders in particular) seem to go about life trying to pork others and that they're ready to give a b-job to anyone who asks them.

I think that if tv's or MtF cders try to help someone I don't know by telling him how to get to a place or even smile, some think that Tv's or MtF are trying to pick them up. Some might be on the hunt for a quickie but that doesn't mean we're all are like that.

Does this or something similar happen to transmen/ FtM crossdressers?

[Ze]

I thought of something the other day. Has anyone ever had to deal with being called "it"? That's another one I've learned to watch out for...

Ugh, yeah. :facepalm: That one always sucks. I don't know about you, Thorny, but it's definitely one of the top self-esteem killers for me. I definitely seem to be in a stage where people can't easily decipher my gender, and plenty of times now I've heard people saying not-so-quietly to each other, "What is it?" Sometimes they sound horrified, sometimes it quickly turns into the joke of the day. Que closest exit.

[lavistaa62]

"..being a man has a LOT less to do with a beard, drinking beer, driving a truck, being a womanizer, or being macho than a lot of males think it does; in fact, in almost every case, those things are indicators that one is NOT a man"

LOL- you go on to reference Hemingway as a man. He may not have driven a truck but he certainly was a pro at all those other things! (beard, Alchoholic, affairs and so on). He was even accused of having an affair with Fitzgerald!

[sexotik]

There's also the feminists who say we're 'betraying our gender'.


Like 4serrus I have also encountered a lot of lesbians and feminists who have called me a traitor and basically abused me for "switching camps" or "betraying my gender". I have also been told that because I am a man, I CAN'T be a feminist o.O

This mindset really caught my attention in an alarming way. Too bad these people can't see that no one's betraying their gender but embracing themselves. So sad and infuriating. It must be really awful and rude to be referred to as "it". F*** them!

PS: I liked it when I read A farewell to Arms by Mr. Hemingway and I read some Kippling. Liked Hemingway better than Kippling. Am I more of a man? Hope not. Guess it's time to read some chick lit.

[NiCo]

"It" is what my father called me for a while before I binned him from my life.

And as for feminists. Lol. I hate them all unless they prove to me otherwise.

In fact, I hate everyone [in real life] to begin with, until they prove to me they are worth my time...hence why I come across as a bit of a pr*ck. Keeps me safe, reminds people that I have a short fuse, and wont stand for their sh*t.

All of what I have been through has caused me to be like this, and I love myself more for it. I don't get hurt as much. It has moulded me; and in a morbid way I’m grateful I’ve had all these idiots test me.

I passed my test btw. they failed, cause they tried to destroy me and instead I became relatively unbreakable. The only person who can hurt me is MYSELF. And I’m quite good at it :p

[Hope]

Don't you find it a bit ironic that on a sight where we struggle against gender stereotyping to take it upon yourself to define what constitutes being a man? Just sayin'

Well... The thing is, I don't struggle against gender stereotyping. I have no problem doing my darndest to conform to the female stereotype. If for no other reason, I realize that it is much easier to make myself conform to societies stereotype than it is to make society conform to me. Ultimately, trying to get society to change their view on gender just because I want them to accept a 6'2" bass with leg hair as a woman, is like holding back the tide.

What I do think we all struggle against is the common notion that genitalia equals gender. To that end I stand behind my point that being born with a penis does not make a person a man.


"..being a man has a LOT less to do with a beard, drinking beer, driving a truck, being a womanizer, or being macho than a lot of males think it does; in fact, in almost every case, those things are indicators that one is NOT a man"

LOL- you go on to reference Hemingway as a man. He may not have driven a truck but he certainly was a pro at all those other things! (beard, Alchoholic, affairs and so on). He was even accused of having an affair with Fitzgerald!

Fair enough. He also left a sizable portion of his estate to a trust tasked with caring for his house cats, in perpetuity. And yet there are few people who wouldn't include Hemingway on the short list of the manliest people to ever roam the earth. I wonder how that riddle can be solved? Perhaps by defining manhood away from specific actions and interests, and more towards personal qualities and characteristics? Don't miss the forest through all of the trees. Every man needs to define for himself what it means to be a man - but no one is going to agree with the putz who thinks that drinking beer and smelling his farts makes him as much (or more!) of a man as say, the college art professor who dedicates himself to his craft, teaches it to others, and comes home every night to help his wife cook dinner.

Was Hemingway an alcoholic and a womanizer? You bet. But those activities aren't what made him a man. Greatness, generosity, a zeal for adventure, dedication, sacrifice, and a willingness to do what is hard - without whining about it - these are some of the things that make Hemingway a man - in spite of - not because of the alcohol and womanizing.

[Ze]

And as for feminists. Lol. I hate them all unless they prove to me otherwise.

I'm a feminist. :D


To that end I stand behind my point that being born with a penis does not make a person a man.

True dat. :)

[NiCo]

You've proved me otherwise.

Espesh the ones who "women are better, women this women that" blah de blah, what were you saying again I was following the tiny crack on the wall...

I'm equality or nothing. Simple. No one is better, no one is worse. Women shouldn't have more rights, men shouldn't have more rights.

The feminists who fight for equality, that's good, fine...but the ones who want more more more...LOLOLOLAGE...no.

[Ze]

Yeah, some feminists are just...no. And unfortunately, they're the ones anti-equalitists (yeah, I just made that word up) target as the stereotype of feminists in order to scare off future feminists.

[Fab Karen]

Yeah, some feminists are just...no. And unfortunately, they're the ones anti-equalitists (yeah, I just made that word up) target as the stereotype of feminists in order to scare off future feminists.
The extreme small sect of them that make up new words ( like "womyn" because women has MEN in it:rolleyes: )

And obviously the Ellen Jamesians ( literary allusion )

[Abraxas]

yeah, it's not easier. It's equally hard in different ways....

I thought of something the other day. Has anyone ever had to deal with being called "it"? That's another one I've learned to watch out for...

I was called 'it' quite a bit when I was younger, mostly in jr high, but also elementary and high school to some extent. Either that or the whole 'what are you?' 'Are you a boy or a girl?' all that crap.

I'm passing 100% now, so I don't have to worry about it anymore, but back when I did, it sucked.

[sexotik]

Yeah, some feminists are just...no. And unfortunately, they're the ones anti-equalitists (yeah, I just made that word up) target as the stereotype of feminists in order to scare off future feminists.


The extreme small sect of them that make up new words ( like "womyn" because women has MEN in it:rolleyes: )

And obviously the Ellen Jamesians ( literary allusion )

These are blindfolded extreme feminists. I once read that some German female translators were replacing the word "father" for "mother" in the prayer "Our holy father who areth in Heaven..." and alsod they were gonna replace the word "father" for mother in the Bible.

Though this is extreme, I agree with this:my English teachers at college had taught us to use "their" and not "his" or "her" in order to avoid sexism. I didn't know it was quite a "deal" but I've realized it is.

Another teacher had told us about the word "womyn" used by "radical" feminists. I couldn't quite believe it at first but I've become aware that it exists. Then she said: then what about the words "hu-MAN" and "per-SON". I lol'd.

and we've officially spun off the tangent.

[WalT]

Don't get me started on my ex and what he did to me. I'm in therapy for what he did about a year ago on top of trying to get my letter for hormones.

It started "innocuous" at first. He knew, going into the relationship, that I was a female to male.

But apparently all he cared about was sex.

It started with name calling and repeatedly saying "I'm not gay" angrily every time I brought it up. Then he started insinuating I wasn't really a guy and that he could turn me into a chick.

I guess one night he had enough, slipped me a roofie, and had his way with me at who knows what time. I was lucky I didn't die- I had NyQuil and was completely unable to move for almost twenty or thirty minutes after I woke up to that. I honestly can't remember that day or much of that night. But because of that, I've been deeply paranoid about coming out to anyone else, because I trusted this awful evil monster of a person.

I would have pressed charges but I was living with him at the time and scared to death of him. Now I'm thoroughly regretting that considering he is still on campus....

So anytime a male to female says we somehow have it better, I laugh VERY cynically.

[Abraxas]

I think this is somehow related but I've perceived that some straight people think that trans people (tv's and MtF cders in particular) seem to go about life trying to pork others and that they're ready to give a b-job to anyone who asks them.

I think that if tv's or MtF cders try to help someone I don't know by telling him how to get to a place or even smile, some think that Tv's or MtF are trying to pick them up. Some might be on the hunt for a quickie but that doesn't mean we're all are like that.

Does this or something similar happen to transmen/ FtM crossdressers?

I don't get that too much, and if I do it's my own fault for being kind of a ****, haha.
But I think a lot of that might have to do with this perception cis/straight people seem to have that 'oh, nobody wants to sleep with a tranny so they must all be desperate for sex. Easy score!' thing. Or there's the problem with all the porn industry promoting 'she-male' and 'chicks with d*cks' and all that crap.

I could just be pulling that out of thin air, but there may well be some of that kind of thinking.


Don't get me started on my ex and what he did to me. I'm in therapy for what he did about a year ago on top of trying to get my letter for hormones.

It started "innocuous" at first. He knew, going into the relationship, that I was a female to male.

But apparently all he cared about was sex.

It started with name calling and repeatedly saying "I'm not gay" angrily every time I brought it up. Then he started insinuating I wasn't really a guy and that he could turn me into a chick.

I guess one night he had enough, slipped me a roofie, and had his way with me at who knows what time. I was lucky I didn't die- I had NyQuil and was completely unable to move for almost twenty or thirty minutes after I woke up to that. I honestly can't remember that day or much of that night. But because of that, I've been deeply paranoid about coming out to anyone else, because I trusted this awful evil monster of a person.

I would have pressed charges but I was living with him at the time and scared to death of him. Now I'm thoroughly regretting that considering he is still on campus....

So anytime a male to female says we somehow have it better, I laugh VERY cynically.

That sucks a lot, man. I'm really sorry you had to go through that.

My ex wasn't nearly that bad, but he was very disrespectful toward me. Thing was, I was dating an MTF pre-op, pre-HRT TS, who was aware I'm FTM and therefore should have 'gotten' it, but he always called me 'She' and by my birth name just to 'tease' me. He'd say stuff like 'hey, it doesn't matter if people think we're lesbians,' or whatever. And he'd sort of... switch personalities every few days, saying 'oh, I'm (male name) today. None of that girly crap for the next little while.' And it was all sorts of confusing, because he also claimed he wanted to fully transition to female.

And, for the record, I was always respectful when we were going out, and did call him 'she' and 'her' and by his female name. These days, I can't be bothered to afford him the respect he never showed me. I guess you can say that I'm still a little bitter, even 5 years later.

[Ze]

Walt :bh:

Yeah, the general threat of rape for FtMs is always a scary thing. I forgot about that one...and it's a massive one. I hate knowing that it still happens to this day.

[NiCo]

Yeah, the general threat of rape for FtMs is always a scary thing. I forgot about that one...and it's a massive one. I hate knowing that it still happens to this day.

The scariest thing is [imo] that it's not just a threat from men, it's a threat from women also as i found out personally.

I always thought i could feel safe in the presence of a woman because it was rarely heard from that a woman would hurt...then i found it was because the media didn't document it as much as the threats from males. Turns out it's equal, just one is more displayed than the rest.

However, everyone is [sadly] at a potential risk from it, men, women whether they are trans or not is not an issue...it just seems we are not protected enough from it and when we decide to take it to the police we are made out to be "lesbians" or "gays" "asking for it" as what happened with me. I was apparently a lesbian…asking for a lesbian to do that to me. Even thought I only had interest in men at that stage in my life, before I figured out about sexuality. Just because I looked “like one”.

It’s sad.

[Ze]

You're completely right, Nico. Rape is a threat and hard enough to get protection from and justice for any group, though obviously some groups have a harder time than others because of stereotypes.

[WalT]

You're completely right, Nico. Rape is a threat and hard enough to get protection from and justice for any group, though obviously some groups have a harder time than others because of stereotypes.Yeah, sad thing is, society's attitude towards rape in general is still pretty appalling. There are still TONS of people who adhere to the myth that people, women ESPECIALLY in particular, "ask for it" or "they obviously did something to deserve it." And that's a dangerous sort of mentality, not to mention scarring for anyone who has been a survivor.

Other than that I haven't experienced much violence as an adult. And I'm not even "out" yet to more than two people I know (well, one I knew). Thankfully the other person (who is my partner and a MtF) is far more accepting of me and, well, tons more comfortable with their sexuality. It's just amazing what a little (well, a LOT) internalized homophobia will do to a person, ugh....

I guess my biggest regret is that I wasted my time on that fellow. It really bugs me, to this day, that if I hadn't have dated him, I could have had my letter by now. Sucks, but there's nothing I can do about it now except be a little more cautious.

Wish I could say I wasn't paranoid, because I am. Who do I come out to, before it's majorly obvious? Who do I surround myself with? Who do I trust?

:hugs: for everyone.

And NiCo... yeah, I know what you're saying. Women can be flat out vicious too. Male rape and male victims of domestic abuse generally goes very unreported, due to a combination of shame and a societal view that "women would never do that."

I'm just really cynical about the messed up views that society can take sometimes. >.<

[Nicole Erin]

I definitely seem to be in a stage where people can't easily decipher my gender, and plenty of times now I've heard people saying not-so-quietly to each other, "What is it?" Sometimes they sound horrified, sometimes it quickly turns into the joke of the day. Que closest exit.

Ze, I am about that stage too. Fun that people are such pr^cks.

With the FTM's who are at that stage, wouldn't it be that people would quicker assume "male" cause people see and hear a lot about MTF.

I figure maybe it is like this -
Someone sees a person and cannot figure their gender.
People expect GM's to cross gender boundries but not so much for GG's to do so. I think there are probably 20 MTF to each one FTM.

So like say like an FTM was out, guy jeans, shirt, short hair, looking quite manly, I mean wouldn't people just assume "male"? I mean even if he didn't pass perfectly?

I think all "gender" can appreciate this one but what kind of nerve and lack of manners would someone have to have to ask another human being, "are you a man or a woman?" I mean for real, WTF?!?

[NiCo]

So like say like an FTM was out, guy jeans, shirt, short hair, looking quite manly, I mean wouldn't people just assume "male"? I mean even if he didn't pass perfectly?

More likely to assume "lesbian" actually.

[Thornton]

yeah, if we don't pass well enough, we get mistaken as butch lesbians...which I assume is especially annoying if you're a gay transman.

[Abraxas]

yeah, if we don't pass well enough, we get mistaken as butch lesbians...which I assume is especially annoying if you're a gay transman.

Ohhhhhhh yeah. Luckily for me, I haven't dealt with that in a long time.

[Andy66]

People expect GM's to cross gender boundries but not so much for GG's to do so. I think there are probably 20 MTF to each one FTM.
Which is exactly why people assume lesbian. There are probably more lesbians than there are FtMs, and they can look physically similar.

I think all "gender" can appreciate this one but what kind of nerve and lack of manners would someone have to have to ask another human being, "are you a man or a woman?" I mean for real, WTF?!?
...erm... For the record, I've never asked anyone that, but I have been in situations where I've had to skirt the issue - a friend of a friend whose name could be either male or female. Is there a polite way of asking how they would like to be addressed?

[SirTrey]

When a person is really androgynous and you just can't tell, probably best just to avoid using pronouns altogether and don't use either Sir or Ma'am.....and that's honestly not that hard to do....There really is no delicate or polite way to ask...at least not one that I can think of. :2c:

[Andy66]

Thanks, Trey. That's what I did, and it felt awkward. But not as awkward as asking would have been. It would have been so much more comfortable if I had known how to refer to the person. Talking TO them was the easy part. Talking ABOUT them was a challenge It's all about the pronouns...
"Your friend Pat is inviting us to, er, Pat's and Pat's girlfriend's party. What should I tell ...er... Pat?" :p

[noeleena]

Hi.
As i was reading through your posts here . one thing has stood out . & that is regardless of wether we are male female or a mix of both . i know some can not handle being called male ..men . or female .. woman .
because of how we see our selfs . or how we relate to others around us .

The word acceptance. is more important. now i would say it is for most of us here. in. / on this forum .
Now out in the real world is it the same . how you get on. with people . for some . you are not doing very well .
now age to will have a bearing on how we get on . i m 62 yet i get respect from both male & females . women . alike .
The word acceptance . i was not sure if i would get that from people . i have . & in the main for me in n z .
it has been good as the people up & down the county where ever i go have been more accepting .
I wont say every one . yet with in the trans community . there seems to be for some as you say . a underlying indifference from a number of lesbain s . & femenists . & a few gays & as has been said . we have undermind thier . what they think is thier make up . so retaliate against us . thier insecuirtes .
now this in the main does not appear in the older people i deal with . the odd one or two yes .
so is this the young ones trying to prove them selfs to be better than any one else. i dont have any thing to prove .
& being a andro . i dont have . the concerns of . i have to be a male or a female . yet i m accepted as a woman ....
Psychologically ..mentalally .. & emotionally seem to me to be the points i see effecting us . & some of those around us in how we move & work . in our communitys . not allways how we look .
I know its not easy for any of us .

To live as to how we see our selfs is how others should see us . & accept us ...

...noeleena...

[NiCo]

Hi Noeleena,


now this in the main does not appear in the older people i deal with . the odd one or two yes .
so is this the young ones trying to prove them selfs to be better than any one else.

What are you trying to say here?

Thanks.

[KrazyKat]

Hey, just to share, if you look into someone's eyes and slightly smile and listen to them, and get to know them, you don't have to use a lot of pronouns, for sure!!:battingeyelashes:

If you are "in your mind" judging how this person you are attempting communication with is going to respond because of their presenting gender, whew, you aren't listening very well, are you?:straightface:

Listening, :2c:is taking in everything a person does and acts, also, right?!

[Andy66]

If you are "in your mind" judging how this person you are attempting communication with is going to respond because of their presenting gender, whew, you aren't listening very well, are you?:straightface:

Listening, :2c:is taking in everything a person does and acts, also, right?!
Thank you for your opinion, Kat. I have no problem listening to people as long as they seem reasonably sane and intelligent.

[Loni]

Years ago, at a bar I used to hang out at, there was a guy who was a bit homophobic.
He just seemed to make too many gay jokes and put down (in a somewhat friendly, not realy threatening mannor) anyone he thought might be gay, etc.

However, one day a someone who I suspected) might be a transmam stated coming to the bar.

Long story short.... he started going balistic on the transman.

To me he seemd to be really threatened by him and it went to the core of his masculinity. In his mind If a woman can act like and become a man, it diminished his mascilinity.
In other words the a-hole was insecure about his own masculinty and he was confronted by it whenever the transman was around
I suspect this is a common reason for transman bashing.


you have hit the nail on the head. those "guys" that say, do, treat, others that just want to be them selves, have a problem and need to find there true selves.

been there done that. but what makes a man is not what grew betwen the legs. it is what is betwen the ears.

.

[Elric]

It's a little off topic, but...

Let me assure you that you don't have to be FTM to hear about not really being a man. Everyone who was born with a pens has to put up with that, and there is a good measure of truth to it. Having a penis makes a person "male," physically at least, but being male and being a man are two distinctly different things. Honestly being a man has a LOT less to do with a beard, drinking beer, driving a truck, being a womanizer, or being macho than a lot of males think it does; in fact, in almost every case, those things are indicators that one is NOT a man.

You want to be a man? Devote yourself to something larger than yourself. Work hard, but don't seek recognition for it. Sacrifice for the benefit of others. Seek excellence. Challenge yourself - not others. Be fearless, but not reckless, or just stupid. Be unfailingly generous and kind to others. Be well educated, well spoken, and well mannered. Don't be afraid to get dirty, but unless you are getting dirty - be clean. Be disciplined. Don't brag. Read some Hemingway - that guy was a pro, Kipling won't hurt you either.

May I say that this so well said. Thank you. Although I do like my cars, pornography, the ladies and science fiction, it is good to balance such pursuits with those you've mentioned. Donne is a favourite of mine :-)

But truly, thank you for this answer! Well well said.

[Elric]

I think that last one may be the one that hurts the most when coming from within the TG community itself. Actually, any of the above statements hurt even more when said to you within the trans community. It can seriously make you feel like everybody is rejecting you or minimizing your problems. You don't even find solace with the group of people that's supposed to get you. Yet they're going through the exact same things! It gets so maddening sometimes that you don't even want to think about it.

I think it's very important that those within the TG community, regardless of any differences of opinion or personality clashes, support one another. Because honestly, where else can most of us go when we need a friendly ear? We may not all have the same agenda or the same background, but to find solace and comfort in knowing there are similarities, and at the heart, a desire for acceptance, is so very crucial.