Why can't I ???

[paulaluvssz8]

Well, several years ago I told my wife about my desire to CD. Needless to say, she didn't take it do well. After a few months she gave me a 6 page letter stating that I could stop this or she would take the girls and leave. She didn't want people to find out because it would cost me my job. And they would all be embarrassed. So I acted without putting any thought to it, other than on my family. Where it should be.

Before I told her about Paula, we talked about fantisies. I ask her to buy me some panties and she did. Let me wear them and all, she just ask that I keep them in her drawer so the girls wouldn't find out. She even bought me some other items. Panties sleep tops, etc. Just s few things. She said that it took away my masculinty, and she didn't know what to think about that.

So back to the story, I know that I overwhelmed her when I showed her the things that I had bought over the years. And I wasn't prepared to answer those questions. I had a book that I let her read, "my husband wears my clothes". She said that she read part of it. I really don't know. Anyway after this I was given the ultimatum, Stop or we are gone!

I stopped for a few years. Now after I feel off the wagon.. LoL I found this site, and a lot of helpful stories. I would love to talk to her about this again. But I can't! It's like if the subject is ever mentioned about a guy wearing women's clothes. She just smarts off about it. Or laughs and I think she is secretly laughing at me. I just don't want yo loose my family... But I don't want yo hide anything from my wife. She said before as long as I was open with her that we could compromise. Well after the ultimatum I felt pushed right back into the closet. I ordered a panty and bra set from the net, thinking I would be there when they arrived. I was gone and she got them. Called me really angry. And so the arguememt was on. Ending with hurt feelings and her telling me that she didn't want me buying "that stuff" anymore.

You know I'd love to be back to getting a little room of acceptance. But I just can't figure out how to bring it up. I really want to just love her, and be "the MAN" she married. But I CD! And like it. I don't want to become a woman. I don't want to be with anybody else. I just want her to love all of me. Not just what she wants of me. I have been with her for 20 years, and she isn't perfect, but I live with those things. And some of the things she does, I hate to the core. But she doesn't stop or change. SO!

Why Can't I???

[Karren H]

I know the drill!! And I'd love acceptance too but for me its family first.. And will always be that way.. My wife didn't sign up for this so I don't blame her one bit for her attitude..

[Shikyo]

Sounds like rather complicated issue you are involved right now.

I really think you should have a nice long chat with her about this matter. It could be that she's just simply afraid of losing the "man" she once married. If she avoids the topic you can do it the same way she did and write a letter about the feelings you have about this matter. There has to be a way for you both to cope with this in a way that it will not harm your family or your lives in anyway. She did buy you some panties in the beginning and didn't have a problem with you wearing them as long as the girls didn't find out about it.

Take some time to think about your own feelings and write them down. This way you can give them to her and she won't really be able to "avoid" the topic. If she does, I don't think she deserves to be with you at all. No matter what the issues is it should never be ignored by one side. A relationship always involves two people and compromises have to be done in some cases but it's not a compromise if you have to give up on something you like to do.

Everyone needs something to keep themselves balanced. Be it reading a book, taking pictures or dressing into female clothes. If you can't have something to relax yourself your life won't be all that nice in the end. I really hope your wife sees into this matter as I truly think that no marriage should be broken because of something like this. Changing a sex is another matter but you have no plans of doing this so I really don't see a reason why she would have the need to forbid you your little hobby. She can have her say about when and how you do it but she can't dictate alone what you can do or not. That is not a the way a relationship should go. You both love each others, don't you? Two loving people wanting to hurt each others isn't a sight anyone wants to see.

[audreyinalbany]

My wife and I would periodically go through crises about my crossdressing. She never threatened to leave me or anything, but we had more than a few tearful scenes about it. Finally a couple of years ago we decided to see a therapist. It's no miracle cure, but it is a third party to referee the discussion. In an ideal world, I would have gotten complete acceptance from her, but, with the help of the therapist we seem to have negotiated a kind of grudging tolerance. We were blessed to have a genuine expert on gender identity as our therapist, but, I'm sure with a little research you could find a qualified therapist in your area.

[Thalia]

I disagree with Shikyo. Paula's wife did not know about the crossdressing initially. When he wanted to wear women's underwear she agreed because it could easily have fallen into the category of "sex play". However, when he admitted to being a crossdresser he crossed the line and she did not sign up for that. As a crossdresser myself I easily see why it would not be appealing for a wife. Many marriages end up in divorce over this proclivity; many couples are in therapy because of it, attempting to save their marriages. Unless the crossdresser admits to the crossdressing before any commitments are made, he has absolutely no right to demand acceptance, or even expect it.

Karren Hutton is right on. Family first. If a habit or activity is injurious to a relationship it should be eliminated or, if acceptable to both parties, at least curtailed. It is paramount that the spouse know what is going on with the crossdressing. An unknowing spouse, upon discovering a cache' of women's clothing and then learning they're her husband's clothes, is hit with a tsunami of information which, I believe in most cases, harms or destroys the marriage.

[kristinacd55]

That's a tough one Paula. Hopefully, you can work it out where you could do it when she's not around etc. My wife has been a reluctant accepter but I know will never fully accept. She knows I dress when noone's home & is fine with that. On this site, there's all different gg acceptance levels & I guess it's up to each individual couple to workout where they have to be at.

[Thalia]

EveMarie: Your quote must have been written by a crossdresser. I believe in reality we are a rather selfish lot.

[gabe]

I am willing to sacrifice a lot, including CD, for the reward, and the trial and tribulation too, of parenthood. Everybody is different, but I take the duties of being a parent very seriously. While an SO did not sign up for a crossdressing husband, children definitely do not deserve to suffer as a result of my desire to CD. I helped bring them into this world, they are my utmost responsibilities. That is not to say we cannot be a serious parent as a divorced couple, a lot of times divorce works out for the better. But if I have to chose, I am more than willing to put off CD for a happy family and until the children are gone. This is a personal choice, there is no right or wrong answer, I think the important people the children, not ourselves. My apologies if I appear to be proselytizing.

[sandra-leigh]

Karren Hutton is right on. Family first. If a habit or activity is injurious to a relationship it should be eliminated or, if acceptable to both parties, at least curtailed.

Oh, right, so all I have to do is solemnly say three times, "I will not cross-dress", and that's that?? Do I have to add in a few
"Abracadabra"s, or a few "Hocus Pocus"es, or a few "Please, God!"s?

Thalia, either you haven't encountered some of our stories yet, or you haven't been listening. There is medical evidence that for at least some of us, cross-dressing is caused by our bio-chemical conditions. Stopping can be very harmful for us. How harmful? Dehabilitating. And I mean that completely seriously.

It doesn't do my wife any good if I can't work and have to sleep most of the day and have no initiative and cannot plan anything and am on a hair trigger and yell at her over trivial things and nearly throw up if I have to do something simple like put dishes in the dish washer. I went through all of that (except that I was fortunate enough that they moved me to another job instead of firing me), and the only thing that has really helped me has been accepting my cross-dressing.

If you have a serious medical condition, then "Family first" means treating that medical condition. The only known treatment for what-ever causes the urge to cross-dress... is to cross-dress.

Perhaps some people can permanently stop wanting to cross-dress -- though the only known cases of that have been through "aversion therapy". Think "A Clockwork Orange". Think electro-shock treatment. Think 75% or more failure rate at removing the actual desire, leaving the person with both the desire and getting sick every time the desire manifests, because of the aversion therapy treatment.

Beyond that, the best people can do is seal the desire inside themselves and hope doing so doesn't damage them too much.

I know one person who sealed away the desire for 8 years... and then one day suddenly had a complete breakdown and (by their own account) would have committed suicide that day if they had not happened to have the opportunity to chat for hours to someone who helped them accept themselves as-is and move forwards; the person is working on full transition now. Why did they seal the desire away? For "family reasons".

Gosh, suicide is just so family-friendly. :doh:



EveMarie: Your quote must have been written by a crossdresser. I believe in reality we are a rather selfish lot.

Clearly, You Just Don't Get It.

In the old days, the phrase they would have used for what happened to me would have been "Nervous Breakdown". And it wasn't from me throwing a big tantrum at being denied the toy (Cross-dressing) that I had seen and wanted: I didn't even know I was a cross-dresser until after medication had repaired enough brain circuits that I was able to bring the matter to conscious attention. And the breakdown was merely the point at which my condition overwhelmed my internal reserves: my doctor said quite clearly that based upon the cortisone levels in my body, he could tell that I had been sick for at least 5 years; knowing the symptoms, I can date back-date it at least 3 years further than that.

Selfish. Pshaw! You know nothing about my life! Let me summarize it this way: my altruism test scores rank me above the 90th percentile.

[Kate Simmons]

When you are in a relationship there is one rule of thumb that never changes. The SO is not always right but she is never wrong. That is a fact that we, as men (CDing notwithstanding) have to learn to live with.:)

[vivianann]

that is why it is so important to not hide anything from a future spouse during courtship, I do not hide the fact that I crossdress from any woman that I date long term, that probably explains Why I am not married, but at least I am not putting some wife through hell over crossdressing, plus I am not putting myself through hell either. I find alot of women are intrigued by us crossdressers, but they would not want to be married to a crossdresser. I agree with Thalia, I do find that alot of crossdressers are very selfish, and they cause there families alot of pain because of it.
I am dressed enfemme most of the time when I am not working, and sometimes when I am working, (though rare) I meet alot of peaple, the women only accept me as one of them, but would not want to be in a relationship.

[Shikyo]

I disagree with Shikyo. Paula's wife did not know about the crossdressing initially. When he wanted to wear women's underwear she agreed because it could easily have fallen into the category of "sex play". However, when he admitted to being a crossdresser he crossed the line and she did not sign up for that. As a crossdresser myself I easily see why it would not be appealing for a wife. Many marriages end up in divorce over this proclivity; many couples are in therapy because of it, attempting to save their marriages. Unless the crossdresser admits to the crossdressing before any commitments are made, he has absolutely no right to demand acceptance, or even expect it.

So if you don't know something before you get married it gives you to the right to stop loving someone or even demand them to stop it just because you want. If the wife has the right to demand the husband to stop crossdressing what will the husband get to demand the wife to stop? To a relationship always belong two and one can make rules about things but if you want to forbid something you better be ready to give up on something else.

Let's see what else we could add to this:

-pregnancy
-sicknesses
-accidents
-mental problems(everything to do with the mental side of the body be it therapy because of an addiction or something totally else)
-smoking
-drinking coffee

The list could go on for a while. Do you think any of these reasons would be a reason to stop loving someone just because you didn't know about it when you first got married maybe because it hadn't started yet or it hadn't been found out yet.

By the way, my wife is no lesbian and far from being bisexual and I'm changing my sex to female. Despite all this she doesn't want to leave me because she loves me and is doing her best to deal with this matter(just like I'm doing my best to make it as easy on her as I can). She would prefer me staying male when she first married but she does understand that it just isn't going to work out like that. She also knows that there would be no future for us if I would try to stay male.

[carolinoakland]

Sigh, back when I was in relationship and had a child... I thought I was CD. And the one thing that she did was to use my fear of exposure as leverage in the relationship. Could it be that you're wife is doing the same? The fear of losing everything gives her the power. The line from "Dune'' "He who can destroy a thing, controls that thing." I ache for your hurt,and need. For acceptance. Time honey, and patience, that's all I can offer. And of course, a hug and love. Carol

[Brandi Wyne]

When one is very young and crossdressing is equated first with love and affection, then the sexual desires it is bringing out are not generally the thing uppermost on the mind, or heart.

I was a "virgin" when I married at a young age and I LOVED all things femme. For me, feeling, touching, smelling any and all things femme just made me believe that I wanted to be very close to my partner; not that I was looking for my other identity. At that time of my life CDing wasn't really mentioned because I never really realized that that is what was at the root of all my desires and the frustrations that came from hiding it.

Yes, family is first. I raised my four children without them ever knowing I had any conduct or desires that ran contrary to conventional thinking. Both my wife and I forgave each other for our failures and weaknesses through the years. I was (and am) less than totally honest with her and that is a torment to me now.

I just don't know what would happen but it would not be a series of bargains and compromises for either of us. It will probably be hurtful, ugly and final but I feel we are approaching that time and place.

Good luck to you and I sincerely hope you find happiness.

[kellycan27]

So if you don't know something before you get married it gives you to the right to stop loving someone or even demand them to stop it just because you want. If the wife has the right to demand the husband to stop crossdressing what will the husband get to demand the wife to stop? To a relationship always belong two and one can make rules about things but if you want to forbid something you better be ready to give up on something else.

Let's see what else we could add to this:

-pregnancy
-sicknesses
-accidents
-mental problems(everything to do with the mental side of the body be it therapy because of an addiction or something totally else)
-smoking
-drinking coffee

The list could go on for a while. Do you think any of these reasons would be a reason to stop loving someone just because you didn't know about it when you first got married maybe because it hadn't started yet or it hadn't been found out yet.

By the way, my wife is no lesbian and far from being bisexual and I'm changing my sex to female. Despite all this she doesn't want to leave me because she loves me and is doing her best to deal with this matter(just like I'm doing my best to make it as easy on her as I can). She would prefer me staying male when she first married but she does understand that it just isn't going to work out like that. She also knows that there would be no future for us if I would try to stay male.

Your wife must be pretty awesome in that she is willing to give up her happiness for you. She's probably giving up just about every notion that she ever expected to get out of marriage, kids, sex, a man. I am not sure what someone could do to "make it easier on HER" though, maybe you could share just what that means with others in order that it may help them in their own relationships. :strugglin

[Nicole Erin]

Ithis quote pretty well summed up what I had to admit was true for me, this doesn't apply to everyone but I thought it was so well put, I had to share:
...


I guess my wife must truely love me cause yes, me being TG is one of the reasons (tho not the main reason) we are splitting.
She had said "Well this is the kind of life you want to lead, I might as well let you do it... ...someday you might meet someone who is able to deal with it but I just can't..."

It is asking a lot for someone to sacrafice their own happiness.
Besides, in this world, you really don't owe anything to anyone.
Some GG's may think a man owes their happiness. And maybe some TS who THINK they are GG's :brolleyes: feel this way about men. Well it isn't the case. You don't owe them, they don't owe you.

But anyways, yeah it might be time to decide if the relationship can really survive.

[sandra-leigh]

It is asking a lot for someone to sacrafice their own happiness.
Besides, in this world, you really don't owe anything to anyone.
Some GG's may think a man owes their happiness.

Realizing that my wife didn't owe me any of several things that I expected was very hard on me -- but liberating. Liberating in that I was able to give up a lot of anger and resentment that I'd been holding in. I don't pretend that I don't still want those things, but they become cases of "You can't always get what you want" instead of me being upset with her personally.

[Shikyo]

Your wife must be pretty awesome in that she is willing to give up her happiness for you. She's probably giving up just about every notion that she ever expected to get out of marriage, kids, sex, a man. I am not sure what someone could do to "make it easier on HER" though, maybe you could share just what that means with others in order that it may help them in their own relationships. :strugglin

Actually, never mind. I just remembered that it's not worth discussing with you at all as you seem to have something against me.

[AllieSF]

I understand both sides of this issue fairly well, though I am not experiencing them yet. Whether the SO was told or not before marriage for whetever reason, the fact is that one has changed and has a relationship and life changing issue to deal with and, share with the SO. Good or bad, too soon or too late, that is the (for both sides), or maybe we could call that compromise. Some people tell there SO and some don't. I know both types. Once the truth is out, partially or completely, it is decision time for both, not just the confessing or discovered party. If the CD/TG/TS can keep it inside or live with certain restrictions self-imposed or imposed by the SO, and remain sane and carry on an almost acceptable life with their SO at the same time, that is fine. However, that does not always work out for everyone and that is where that hard decision comes into play, to separate and give both parties a chance to get on with there lives.

I do not believe that one has to "suck it in" and be brave and sacrifice all for the innocent party. I do believe that both parties need to make that hard decision whetherto stay together or not. Sure, some can stay together and make it work, but others will suffer seriously and potentially cause more harm to the SO, themselves and those innocent bystanding children. I do not believe that one shoe nor one recommendation fits all feet and all people.

So, my recommendation is to sit down by yourself and think, analyse, get professional help if you can, and then decide. Good, long, open, honest and hard discussions with the SO are also needed. Good luck.

[kellycan27]

I

Some GG's may think a man owes their happiness. And maybe some TS who THINK they are GG's :brolleyes: feel this way about men. Well it isn't the case. You don't owe them, they don't owe you.

But anyways, yeah it might be time to decide if the relationship can really survive.

I suppose you could look at it like that Nicole, and "technically" you may be correct. Nobody really does "owe" anybody anything. So it it would perfectly acceptable for everyone to just do as they please, without regard for for anyone else, because you don't "owe" them anything. Great words to live by.
Did you ever stop to think that that TS who you say thinks that they a real gg might in reality just be someone who has the ability to look at both sides of the coin? You want the right to live your life as you see fit, and as to what makes you happy, yet you seem to take issue with others who want the same thing for themselves. You obviously feel that your right trumps theirs which seem so me go right along with your "I don't owe anyone anything attitude".

Your friend



kelly :heehee:

[Presh GG]

Hi Ladies... All,

Can I jump in here for just a thought?

Please, How can your lovely wifes understand if you don't tell them what it's all about ?
We can't read your mind. But one thing is for sure, if a women really has been blessed with a husband who can and will love her enough to explain what CD is all about it is no longer scary and only understanding will lead to exceptance.

I wish you [ and your partners ] happyness and the most out of life.

Presh GG

[AmandaM]

Her ultimatum means that you suffer cause she sure ain't going to. Some relationship. It's supposed to be about working thru problems. Oh by the way dear, I just got cancer. Her: "You deal with it, I don't want to see any meds or nutin' around the house".

[Lisia]

Her ultimatum means that you suffer cause she sure ain't going to. Some relationship. It's supposed to be about working thru problems. Oh by the way dear, I just got cancer. Her: "You deal with it, I don't want to see any meds or nutin' around the house".


I am far from being an expert on this matter, but yeah, what she said. ;)

[jenniferishappy]

would all of the girls here be ok if their wife or SO came home and decided she was going to start going around the house en male including faux facial/body hair and a zucchini down the front of their pants? walking with a male gait? going out in the garage like that to change the oil? strolling downtown?
so obviously i dont mean just jeans and a mans button down shirt, which can still be fem/sexy on a GG. i am talking trying to look like a man by deploying all of the things that normally separate us to the casual observer: both dress and behaviors? because that is kind of what a lot of us do, not just clothes.
i have never really contemplated this, but at first though it has zero appeal.

[Shikyo]

would all of the girls here be ok if their wife or SO came home and decided she was going to start going around the house en male including faux facial/body hair and a zucchini down the front of their pants? walking with a male gait? going out in the garage like that to change the oil? strolling downtown?
so obviously i dont mean just jeans and a mans button down shirt, which can still be fem/sexy on a GG. i am talking trying to look like a man by deploying all of the things that normally separate us to the casual observer: both dress and behaviors? because that is kind of what a lot of us do, not just clothes.
i have never really contemplated this, but at first though it has zero appeal.

I would have absolutely no problem with that. To me something like this isn't a reason to stop loving someone or stop giving support. She'll get all my support for whatever she wants to do.

[ReineD]

And so the arguememt was on. Ending with hurt feelings and her telling me that she didn't want me buying "that stuff" anymore.

Your wife believes the CDing is an option, and if you love her enough, you will stop. You need to let her know that it is as much a part of you as the color of your eyes. Tell her what you wrote in your last paragraph. Tell her that you do not want to lose your marriage over this, but you cannot change who you are. You were born with this.

Invite her to come to the forum and join FAB. Read the sticky, "How to Tell Your Partner" at the top of this section.

[DinaMature]

[QUOTE=paulaluvssz8;1985591] And some of the things she does, I hate to the core. But she doesn't stop or change. SO!/QUOTE]

grrrr this is something that came up when I left my wife... she was allowed infinite judgement on anything I did but I was allowed no criticism of her.
In my limited life, this is too often the case. Women have so much power in typical relationships and men have to settle for whatever bones they are offered.

sorry to vent but this struck a nerve :2c:

[paulaN]

I do not want to make my post long and boring. All I can do is point out what happened to me with my wife and my marriage.
My ex found my cd'ing unacceptable
I tried to drink the girl away for years. That was more acceptable than cd'ing. seems like anyway.
When I gave up drinking the girl inside had to come out to some extent. This was really unacceptable. What will her friends think.
I raised my kids to adulthood. So now it was time for me. At least some girl time. I am now sober and Paula needs some freedom. Also unacceptable. Ex still wanted the man she married. I was a cd back then too.
I started to push the hole cd thing. Maybe too much. But she was pushing too. She was making my life so miserable.
With the misery and pain I made decisions that was wrong. But in my defense. I had to have some happiness too.
We ended up divorced after 31 years. As you can see from what I have wrote. Everything about being a cd was unacceptable. Still is. Her attitude is cd'ing is fine just not her husband.
Being married is a partnership. I tried to make my marriage work and she will say the same. It just got to the point that we were not partners any more. I still blame her for her unacceptance of my cd'ing and unwillingness to stop her drinking as reasons for our divorce. Of course that is just my point of view too.
So that's what happened to me. I wish you the very best in trying to work all of this out. I think everyone here has made very good points as to what is right or wrong. But really there is no real right or wrong answers to life now is there. We all have to make choices and sometimes the choices we make hurt like hell. Such is life.

[Tina B.]

Just two quick points. One is I keep reading about how shellfish CD's are, this in reply to someone talking about how demanding their SO is. We hear about so many wives demanding, it's my way or the highway, why has no one thought that maybe it's wives that come off as the selfish one. As Sandra has pointed out, for a lot of us, it is medically beyond are control. Many of the CD's on this site have gone to great lengths to bury the need, or to hide it from sight, just to please someone else, how is that selfish?
Point two, and this will sound harsh. Some times you just have to cut your losses, and move on. But life is to short to spend 20 or 30 or more years miserable, trying to keep someone else happy.
Tina

[JenniferR771]

My wife frequently insists that crossdressing is a choice. I contend that I was born this way. She says, "You can control it, if you want to. You keep looking at men in drag online--that is gay."

I say, "I didn't know I was a cd before we were married." She says , "Yes, you did. you didn't tell me. I didn't sign up for this." Sigh.
We are working it out as best we can.

[Bridget Fitzgerald]

The bottom line, you have a commitment to your kids.

My avatar pic is the last time I dressed in 1999 after a lifetime. I personally decided to choose my wife over my femme self. Not ten conscious minutes have gone by since that decision that I don't think about and want to dress again. But I made my choice. My choice is mine alone, but don't ever let anyone tell you that you can't stop. While one doesn't choose to be a crossdresser, one certainly makes a choice to crossdress. It isn't easy or fun to abstain, and you will get a lot of more trans than thou attitude from others. But yes, we all have the power to abstain.

[Krista-girl]

I dont have a wife or kids but if I did They will always com first no matter what.

[Satrana]

Sorry to hear about this. It is sad when a SO instead of working things out with her partner and tackling her own prejudices instead opts for the head in the sand approach and, in your case, added emotional blackmail of separation and the kids.

As you pointed out when she thought it was just a sexual fetish then she played along but when the concept of crossdressing was revealed her prejudices were triggered. The only way to get around this is to demonstrate that her feelings on the matter are ill-informed and baseless. The trick is how to get her started on the educational route where she can lay her fears to rest and work out a compromise.

One thing to counter her ultimatum with is to point out that her taking off with the kids is going to create far more harm to their emotional development than her dealing with your crossdressing. If there is any selfishness on display here, it is the one who is needlessly threatening to break-up the relationship and harm the kids in the process.

You need to develop the belief in yourself that you are not doing anything wrong and you should stand up for what you are. Her feelings on CDing are ensuring that she is dealing with this the wrong way. She needs assistance from others to change her understanding.

[paulaluvssz8]

Hello all. I do appreciate all comments. I know that there is a lot of experience in this matter. I'm going to have to make a decesion about me, and my cding. I will assure you all that first and foremost I will keep my family in mind. I will only do what's best for us. And if I have to dress in the closet while she is gone. Well that's what I'll do. Just to keep peace and togetherness. I'm aware the dressing is a choice for me. I do it for the pleasure, and I know that must really bother others. But that's me... My only regrets are that I didn't find this site before I told her about my desire to dress. Could have used the advice. Oh well, I hope that you all have a very Happy New Year! And I'll be around, either in or out of the closet.

[Acadeca]

You know I'd love to be back to getting a little room of acceptance. But I just can't figure out how to bring it up. I really want to just love her, and be "the MAN" she married. But I CD! And like it. I don't want to become a woman. I don't want to be with anybody else. I just want her to love all of me. Not just what she wants of me. I have been with her for 20 years, and she isn't perfect, but I live with those things. And some of the things she does, I hate to the core. But she doesn't stop or change. SO!

Why Can't I???

Why can't you? Why didn't you tell her b-e-f-o-r-e you married her? Where was this "Why can't I" attitude back then?

Your wife, assuming she's straight, needs a masculine man just as much as you need to dress. It's amazing to me how much the wives of CDs will give up to keep their families together and how very little the CDs themselves will do for same.

[sandra-leigh]

Your wife, assuming she's straight, needs a masculine man just as much as you need to dress.

Possibly true in the case of the original poster, but not true for all of us here.

In my opinion, your statement is perpetuating myths that confuse biological sex, sexual orientation, and gender -- perpetuating the 50's "Men should be men, and women should be women!" myth. I bet you can't even define your terms precisely, as to what it means exactly to be "straight" or "masculine". For example, I have encountered many women who say they are "straight" and whom enjoy looking at scantily-clad good-looking women: have all those women been "lying" about being straight, or have they all been "latent bisexuals"? Because if they have all been "latent bisexuals" in your definitions, then the average is noticeably different than the "pure hetrosexual" that you imply in your statement.

If you were speaking generally about "the need to dress" rather than specifically about the need as experienced by the original poster, then you were wrong and should go back and read my posting in this thread about the medical effects I experienced.


It's amazing to me how much the wives of CDs will give up to keep their families together and how very little the CDs themselves will do for same.

It's amazing to me how much people can generalize about the lives of CDs they have never even met and don't know about.

For example, I have been allowing for the last 18 months something that two different therapists have said they personally wouldn't allow for more than 3 weeks; it is something that statistically damages 80% of marriages and is directly responsible for divorce in 40% of cases; the best time estimate we have is that it will go on for another 3 years (and the psychological effects will last for many years beyond that.)

[giuseppina]

When you are in a relationship there is one rule of thumb that never changes. The SO is not always right but she is never wrong. That is a fact that we, as men (CDing notwithstanding) have to learn to live with.:)

This is OK until it contradicts professional advice. At that point, it can be abusive.

I speak from experience. :sad:

[kellycan27]

In my opinion, your statement is perpetuating myths that confuse biological sex, sexual orientation, and gender -- perpetuating the 50's "Men should be men, and women should be women!" myth. I bet you can't even define your terms precisely, as to what it means exactly to be "straight" or "masculine". For example, I have encountered many women who say they are "straight" and whom enjoy looking at scantily-clad good-looking women: have all those women been "lying" about being straight, or have they all been "latent bisexuals"? Because if they have all been "latent bisexuals" in your definitions, then the average is noticeably different than the "pure hetrosexual" that you imply in your statement.




It's amazing to me how much people can generalize about the lives of CDs they have never even met and don't know about.

Be that as it may, people form their own opinons of what defines a "masculine" man. You can rationalize whatever you want, and you may in fact be correct in what you have said, but being correct, doesn't alway "pay the rent" I have my own "definition" of masculine and that's what I look for in an SO. If he doesn't fit my idea of masculine... he's out.

[kellycan27]

Sorry to hear about this. It is sad when a SO instead of working things out with her partner and tackling her own prejudices instead opts for the head in the sand approach and, in your case, added emotional blackmail of separation and the kids.

As you pointed out when she thought it was just a sexual fetish then she played along but when the concept of crossdressing was revealed her prejudices were triggered. The only way to get around this is to demonstrate that her feelings on the matter are ill-informed and baseless. The trick is how to get her started on the educational route where she can lay her fears to rest and work out a compromise.

One thing to counter her ultimatum with is to point out that her taking off with the kids is going to create far more harm to their emotional development than her dealing with your crossdressing. If there is any selfishness on display here, it is the one who is needlessly threatening to break-up the relationship and harm the kids in the process.

You need to develop the belief in yourself that you are not doing anything wrong and you should stand up for what you are. Her feelings on CDing are ensuring that she is dealing with this the wrong way. She needs assistance from others to change her understanding.



I think that it is pretty well accepted that mothers will do whatever they deem necessary to protect their children from harm,whether real or perceived.
i don't think that trying the old "guilt trip" approach ( taking off will do the kids more harm than good) is a good strategy and it may even backfire and really piss her off. Keep in mind that people who tell you to stand up aren't facing the prospect of YOUR marriage going down the tubes. But the good news is that they will probably be here to console you after it happens. " I am so sorry, but at least you have the satisfaction of knowing that you were right"! And keep in mind that some people have their own agendas, and believe that sacrifices must be made along the way in order to get the word out, and advance the "cause". sadly I don't have any advice other than to say that were I in your shoes I would seriously consider getting professional help. Whether or not you can work it out is going to be a crap shoot. I wish you the best of luck.
:hugs:

Kelly

[suchacutie]

Once the gaunlet has been thrown down, the options are limited. The facts are that this "bi-genderedness" that is a part of us is still a very hot issue in the minds of many people. I'm not saying that this is a good thing, just that it does exist as a problem. When one spouse has their fears pierced, regardless of the issue, this kind of knee-jerk reaction will be the result. If staying married is the goal, then professional help is really the only direct way of approaching the issue. Also, I wouldn't press for joint counseling in the beginning, but let the counselor request you wife to join in as time goes on. He will surely want to interview her.

I am so sorry for your hurt. Without the intervention of a professional, the status quo might be maintained for a long time.

tina

[Karen564]

Why can't you? Why didn't you tell her b-e-f-o-r-e you married her? Where was this "Why can't I" attitude back then?

Your wife, assuming she's straight, needs a masculine man just as much as you need to dress. It's amazing to me how much the wives of CDs will give up to keep their families together and how very little the CDs themselves will do for same.

That's a very good observation, and also the way I feel too.

Don't listen to the old goat either, he's just showing off his typically male mind.

But to be fair, there are some CDers that do sacrifice or at least try to curtail their CDing desires & put their SO's & families needs 1st. I have much admiration for them even though I don't really know what goes through the mind of a CDer, but would imagine it's tough for them.

Personally speaking, I could never blame any spouse for not accepting this behavior and live the rest of their lives with it, I know I wouldn't, and they may be able to understand it to some degree like I think I do, but lets face it, if they or I did except this to behavior into the relationship, it is the wives or I that made the sacrifice to save the relationship and live with that pain against our will, while the CDer had done nothing but do what they wanted to without sacrificing anything for anyone.

So, that's why I do NOT view a wife as acting selfish if they cant accept & live with it if it's not their cup of tea, but do view any CDer or transsexual very selfish in EXPECTING their spouse to accept them in their new gender expression role, and when that doesn't happen, blame the the spouse for the relationships demise. I say you reap what you sew.
I do admire all the wives that do except this, and think of them as Saints, for it is something I could never do, and I have the utmost respect for them.

Paula,
Good luck, I'm sure that you will make the the best decision you can and your intension's are honorable as to seeing that your thinking about your wife & family too, not just just yourself in this matter.
Either way, it is a Huge decision that will effect everyone in your life for the rest of their lives, so it's not one to take lightly..

:hugs:

[livinggingerly]

I have some personal experience that I really do want to share with you. Can you email me and let's chat privately?

[sandra-leigh]

Don't listen to the old goat either, he's just showing off his typically male mind.

Hmmm.

Karen, I have the opinions of 4 different medical professionals that my mind is distinctly atypical, period. The three of them that I have talked to gender issues about indicate that I do not fit the typical "male" pattern (the fourth knew about my gender issues as part of the background to the matters we were dealing with, but they never became the focus.)

These are professionals who have had direct dealings with me, and are privy to details of my life that I have (for various reasons) not mentioned here. The three that I have discussed gender with know of my medical background; one has extensive knowledge of it.

[Karen564]

Hmmm.

Karen, I have the opinions of 4 different medical professionals that my mind is distinctly atypical, period. The three of them that I have talked to gender issues about indicate that I do not fit the typical "male" pattern (the fourth knew about my gender issues as part of the background to the matters we were dealing with, but they never became the focus.)

These are professionals who have had direct dealings with me, and are privy to details of my life that I have (for various reasons) not mentioned here. The three that I have discussed gender with know of my medical background; one has extensive knowledge of it.

WhatEverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.....period

I'm sorry that you have been told differently..

If you did have a female mind way of thinking, then you wouldn't of posted what you said to Acadeca. period.

[Dana]

would all of the girls here be OK if their wife or SO came home and decided she was going to start going around the house en male including faux facial/body hair and a zucchini down the front of their pants? walking with a male gait? going out in the garage like that to change the oil? strolling downtown?

Are you kidding me? :d'oh:

You see everyday all over the place. Downtown, WallyWorld. Some of the are heterosexual and just feel more comfortable wearing their BF's or DH's clothes. I've spoken to some that wear their husbands Hanes of BVD's when Aunt Flo is visiting. Quite the fad several years back was for young HS girls to wear men's boxers as outerwear.

GG get to wear virtually anything and everything the entire spectrum of men's and women's clothing ~ in so long as its "occasion" appropriate.

Women get to be heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual or even tri-sexual, (as in trying anything with anybody)

But if your born a male? Your confined to this tiny little constrictions as how your suppose to dress, behave, act, and present yourself to the world.

The conotation is that if your a transgendered male your less than a man ~ that your weak. Total and complete bull hockey pucks.

I know! I've more than "validated" my masculinity throughout the course of my life. Being an all-state defensive linebacker, 20+ year United States Marine, expert with the rifle, pistol and other various weapons. Having gone through jungle, mountain and desert warfare training. Having gone trough wars, combat, etc ad nauseum.

Girls just want to have fun, and being a girl is fun. Cross dressing is fun, dressing up is fun, pretending to be someone or something else is fun. Being a girl or being girly is fun. Shopping is fun ~ a lot of things that women naturally get to do and enjoy but not men ~ is just plain old fashion,

There's no doubt in my military mind that I've a partially feminized brain housing group. I've zero spatial perception to the extent that I cannot even wrap a present, I'm lousy at math, I talk endlessly ~ all things that if one has done any study leans toward the feminine.

But there are women that are great at such things.

My point, there are women that are strictly heterosexual but more masculine than your typical male ~ and ditto for some men.

The big problem for the OP is the word "Alabama" (Where I'm from and currently reside)

Were to be found out that I was a CD'r ~ I would be black listed socially, would probally lose my job, and would have a very hard time finding another one, even if the economy was booming. :dh:

[kellycan27]

Are you kidding me? :d'oh:

You see everyday all over the place. Downtown, WallyWorld. Some of the are heterosexual and just feel more comfortable wearing their BF's or DH's clothes. I've spoken to some that wear their husbands Hanes of BVD's when Aunt Flo is visiting. Quite the fad several years back was for young HS girls to wear men's boxers as outerwear.

GG get to wear virtually anything and everything the entire spectrum of men's and women's clothing ~ in so long as its "occasion" appropriate.

Women get to be heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual or even tri-sexual, (as in trying anything with anybody)

But if your born a male? Your confined to this tiny little constrictions as how your suppose to dress, behave, act, and present yourself to the world.

The conotation is that if your a transgendered male your less than a man ~ that your weak. Total and complete bull hockey pucks.

I know! I've more than "validated" my masculinity throughout the course of my life. Being an all-state defensive linebacker, 20+ year United States Marine, expert with the rifle, pistol and other various weapons. Having gone through jungle, mountain and desert warfare training. Having gone trough wars, combat, etc ad nauseum.

Girls just want to have fun, and being a girl is fun. Cross dressing is fun, dressing up is fun, pretending to be someone or something else is fun. Being a girl or being girly is fun. Shopping is fun ~ a lot of things that women naturally get to do and enjoy but not men ~ is just plain old fashion,

There's no doubt in my military mind that I've a partially feminized brain housing group. I've zero spatial perception to the extent that I cannot even wrap a present, I'm lousy at math, I talk endlessly ~ all things that if one has done any study leans toward the feminine.

But there are women that are great at such things.

My point, there are women that are strictly heterosexual but more masculine than your typical male ~ and ditto for some men.

The big problem for the OP is the word "Alabama" (Where I'm from and currently reside)

Were to be found out that I was a CD'r ~ I would be black listed socially, would probally lose my job, and would have a very hard time finding another one, even if the economy was booming. :dh:

And your point is what?

[Karen564]

Are you kidding me? :d'oh:

You see everyday all over the place. Downtown, WallyWorld. Some of the are heterosexual and just feel more comfortable wearing their BF's or DH's clothes. I've spoken to some that wear their husbands Hanes of BVD's when Aunt Flo is visiting. Quite the fad several years back was for young HS girls to wear men's boxers as outerwear.

GG get to wear virtually anything and everything the entire spectrum of men's and women's clothing ~ in so long as its "occasion" appropriate.

Women get to be heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual or even tri-sexual, (as in trying anything with anybody)

But if your born a male? Your confined to this tiny little constrictions as how your suppose to dress, behave, act, and present yourself to the world.

The conotation is that if your a transgendered male your less than a man ~ that your weak. Total and complete bull hockey pucks.

I know! I've more than "validated" my masculinity throughout the course of my life. Being an all-state defensive linebacker, 20+ year United States Marine, expert with the rifle, pistol and other various weapons. Having gone through jungle, mountain and desert warfare training. Having gone trough wars, combat, etc ad nauseum.

Girls just want to have fun, and being a girl is fun. Cross dressing is fun, dressing up is fun, pretending to be someone or something else is fun. Being a girl or being girly is fun. Shopping is fun ~ a lot of things that women naturally get to do and enjoy but not men ~ is just plain old fashion,

There's no doubt in my military mind that I've a partially feminized brain housing group. I've zero spatial perception to the extent that I cannot even wrap a present, I'm lousy at math, I talk endlessly ~ all things that if one has done any study leans toward the feminine.

But there are women that are great at such things.

My point, there are women that are strictly heterosexual but more masculine than your typical male ~ and ditto for some men.

The big problem for the OP is the word "Alabama" (Where I'm from and currently reside)

Were to be found out that I was a CD'r ~ I would be black listed socially, would probally lose my job, and would have a very hard time finding another one, even if the economy was booming. :dh:

99% of the women that do wear some articals of mens clothes are not pretending to be a guy, so I don't see why thats such an issue with you..there still presenting as a female..not as a male or any other sort of gender bending..

[crusadergirl]

I do think it is unfair that you would have to give up something you enjoy b/c the person you married didn't know u did this before u got married. If you love someone u should be more understanding of there feelings.
Some say family first but what about your own self that should come first. Because if your not happy no one in your family will either.

[Karen564]

I do think it is unfair that you would have to give up something you enjoy b/c the person you married didn't know u did this before u got married. If you love someone u should be more understanding of there feelings.
Some say family first but what about your own self that should come first. Because if your not happy no one in your family will either.

Unfair?????So I take it that you don't consider it a 2 way street then, huh...it's all about your feelings and not theirs..

Good luck on your relationship then, if that's what you think a relationship is all about, but regardless, your idea seems a bit too one sided to me..

[docrobbysherry]

I'm going to have to make a decesion about me, and my cding. I will assure you all that first and foremost I will keep my family in mind. I will only do what's best for us. And if I have to dress in the closet while she is gone. Well that's what I'll do. Just to keep peace and togetherness. I'm aware the dressing is a choice for me. I do it for the pleasure, and I know that must really bother others.

That so many here have IGNORED your situation, and comments. Apparently MORE INTERESTED in presenting their OWN points of view?

Altho, I wouldn't EXACTLY say Cding is an OPTION for me, I DO dress in the closet. And I don't need to go out dressed. I dress because it EXCITES me! Sounds like u may be similar, Paula.:)

Sounds like you've ALREADY solved your problem, without much help from us here! I was going to suggest closet dressing as a possible solution! Until your kids r grown, or until you've HAD ENUFF of your SO. After 20 years, I'm SURE it can be difficult to keep the relationship healthy and happy!

Another idea:
Take trips away by yourself. Dress in hotels, or somewhere where no one knows u.
I think u should tell your wife what you're doing, tho. It may be more acceptable, if she knows you'll dress without ANYONE knowing, or seeing u!:brolleyes:

[sherri52]

Family comes first. Do what you can to help improve the marriage. When and if you feel the moment has come, take the avenue toward your crossdressing and tell her again. Get her on this site to show her that crossdressing doesn't change the man that you are unless having more sensitivty than the average man counts. Let her see the benefits of having a cd SO.

[dann]

I speak this from experience my new friend,

This problem will never be worked out unless she finds a level of acceptance or you actually quit cding.

I know that's not a lot to go on and it's a little direct, but I think a lot of time is spent trying to fix a situation using the wrong tools. Ultimatus on one side and sneaking around on the other side are not the tools needed to fix this situation.

[Dana]

99% of the women that do wear some articals of mens clothes are not pretending to be a guy, so I don't see why thats such an issue with you..there still presenting as a female..not as a male or any other sort of gender bending..

Its not a issue with me. I'm just stating the unfairness of it all!

I could care less!

[jenniferishappy]

i was trying to point out in my original post here not just the clothes, but all of the other things we do to emulate women. when fully dressed it would be in my mind similar to a woman taking something to grow lots of body hair, have facial hair, take up male mannerisms, stuff their pants in front, male interests, etc. it seems as if most of us want a female persona in our SO's. more interested in a girlfriend relationship than a girl boy with our wife/SO as the boy. the more i think about the prospect of my wife doing all that if she could/would is not appealing. so this is a first for me thinking in terms of this. hmmm. even in private for sex this would have zero appeal to me. any thoughts. havent seen anything posted on this subject here, maybe it deserves its own thread.

[Karen564]

i was trying to point out in my original post here not just the clothes, but all of the other things we do to emulate women. when fully dressed it would be in my mind similar to a woman taking something to grow lots of body hair, have facial hair, take up male mannerisms, stuff their pants in front, male interests, etc. it seems as if most of us want a female persona in our SO's. more interested in a girlfriend relationship than a girl boy with our wife/SO as the boy. the more i think about the prospect of my wife doing all that if she could/would is not appealing. so this is a first for me thinking in terms of this. hmmm. even in private for sex this would have zero appeal to me. any thoughts. havent seen anything posted on this subject here, maybe it deserves its own thread.

I pointed that out before in a thread, but had no takers, so I took that as a no, just don't believe that it wouldn't appeal to most of them in the slightest, but does appear that they don't think twice about wanting their wives to accept them as female for some reason..

[lavistaa62]

It's very presumptuous of her to assume that she has any right to "take the kids". Most courts would not see the situation this way- the greatest danger for most of us would be our employment and losing your employment would not help her or the kids in the least. Sounds like a nuclear standoff and that she is demanding you sacrifice yourself for her moral values to me. Yes- both people have a right to state their positions but CDing is not something that is mutually exclusive to the "kids and family come first" like say drug addiction or excessive spending. I equate that position with the "think of the children" bs which is most often used by those who wish to suppress others not because it's helpful to anyone but just because they feel they can get away with it. Do you and your your wife understand how fundamental this is to your sense of self?

By the way, as others have said on a different thread and having thought about it a bit if I were to become the female in the family and my wife the male I don't think it would bother me one bit. Which is odd, very odd but also very true at least in the abstact. Certainly if she wanted to explore this in a non-confrontational way I would have no problems with it.

[Jamie001]

The job issue that you mention should not be a problem as long as you don't CD at work, however when you are not at work you can CD if you wish. Some folks also belong to nudist colonies when they are not at work and this is no different than CDing. If you want to be safe, just don't CD at work.

:2c:Jamie


It's very presumptuous of her to assume that she has any right to "take the kids". Most courts would not see the situation this way- the greatest danger for most of us would be our employment and losing your employment would not help her or the kids in the least. Sounds like a nuclear standoff and that she is demanding you sacrifice yourself for her moral values to me. Yes- both people have a right to state their positions but CDing is not something that is mutually exclusive to the "kids and family come first" like say drug addiction or excessive spending. I equate that position with the "think of the children" bs which is most often used by those who wish to suppress others not because it's helpful to anyone but just because they feel they can get away with it. Do you and your your wife understand how fundamental this is to your sense of self?

By the way, as others have said on a different thread and having thought about it a bit if I were to become the female in the family and my wife the male I don't think it would bother me one bit. Which is odd, very odd but also very true at least in the abstact. Certainly if she wanted to explore this in a non-confrontational way I would have no problems with it.

[Bridget Fitzgerald]

It's very presumptuous of her to assume that she has any right to "take the kids". Most courts would not see the situation this way- the greatest danger for most of us would be our employment and losing your employment would not help her or the kids in the least. Sounds like a nuclear standoff and that she is demanding you sacrifice yourself for her moral values to me. Yes- both people have a right to state their positions but CDing is not something that is mutually exclusive to the "kids and family come first" like say drug addiction or excessive spending. I equate that position with the "think of the children" bs which is most often used by those who wish to suppress others not because it's helpful to anyone but just because they feel they can get away with it. Do you and your your wife understand how fundamental this is to your sense of self?

By the way, as others have said on a different thread and having thought about it a bit if I were to become the female in the family and my wife the male I don't think it would bother me one bit. Which is odd, very odd but also very true at least in the abstact. Certainly if she wanted to explore this in a non-confrontational way I would have no problems with it.

Heaping a lot of judgment on a wife we've never met there. The thing about crossdressing in a family is that only one person directly benefits from it. When/if it works out great, but it doesn't always work out. Support on our end doesn't always have to be, "me me me". It can also be, "Wow that sucks, hang in there. You can do it". Cheap advise when it isn't our marriage and family on the line is .......cheap.

[sandra-leigh]

(Bridget, reply to you is further down)


If you did have a female mind way of thinking, then you wouldn't of posted what you said to Acadeca. period.

Karen, re-examine your previous posting:


he's just showing off his typically male mind

Do you see the difference between that and what you just wrote? The first posted says "typically male mind" and the newer says "female mind". You appear to have gotten confused by The Fallacy Of The Excluded Middle: you have set up the logical premise that the only choices are "typically male" and "female", and that no-one can be anything else other than those two things.

If you review my response to you, you will see that no-where in my response did I claim to have a typical female mind: what I said was that the assessment of professionals is that I do not have a typical mind, and in particular that I do not fit the typical male pattern. If one does not adhere to The Law Of The Excluded Middle when it comes to gender, then that leaves me as at a minimum being an atypical male, and quite possibly as being some mix of male and female. In either case, the mind that "the old goat" is "showing off" is not one that is "typically male", what-ever it may be.

If you review my past postings, you will find that I do not identify as either typical male or as TS (and medical professionals (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1951132&postcount=36) do not consider me to be either of those (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1957443#post1957443)): I identify as non-polarized gender-fluid; the approximate label (if one is going to label at all) would probably be "androgynous"; as, though, I feel that label to have overtones that are not appropriate to me, I usually just shorten it to saying that I am TG (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1953370#post1953370).



If you did have a female mind way of thinking, then you wouldn't of posted what you said to Acadeca. period.

What, all of it? Or just some parts of it? For example, are you, in making that statement, making the claim that I was incorrect when I said,


Possibly true in the case of the original poster, but not true for all of us here.

in response to Acadeca saying,


Your wife, assuming she's straight, needs a masculine man just as much as you need to dress.

That is, are you claiming that it is true all over the world that in every case where a wife is "straight", that she "needs a masculine man" at least as much as her husband needs to dress? If so, then is your claim evidentially based, or is your claim based upon your personal definition of "straight" -- i.e., that any wife who does not "need a masculine man" as much as the husband needs to dress, is, de facto, not "straight" ?

=====

Bridget's response came in while I was writing my previous response. The following is not intended to be thematically connected to my response to Karen, but the rules on avoiding multi-posting require that I edit it into the existing response:



Heaping a lot of judgment on a wife we've never met there.

I agree to some extent: there have been a number of firm opinions expressed without knowing the complete facts or hearing the other point of view; opinions formed without proper context are seldom the best of advice. On the other hand, the original poster stated some facts about the situation, and it is not inappropriate to make judgments based upon those facts (separated from the original poster's interpretation of the facts) if those facts are sufficiently stark. This process does, though, require that we believe that the original poster stated those facts correctly, that the poster's wife did in fact say what the original poster posted as having transpired. For the most part, we (in general) do not expect forum posters to deliberately lie on serious matters -- though we recognize that it has happened in the past and will likely happen again in the future. I notice that no-one here has expressed doubt about whether the original poster's wife did really say what was claimed: there has, though, been a considerable diversity of opinion as to priorities and appropriate and responsible reactions under the assumption that the original posting was telling the truth.


The thing about crossdressing in a family is that only one person directly benefits from it.

That's an interesting insight that I don't recall seeing expressed before, and one that I shall think about more in the future.

The main difficulty that comes to my mind upon reflection upon it, is that one could substitute any of a number of things for "crossdressing" and the statement would still be true.

For example, my job skills do not happen to be in carpentry or plumbing or any of the building trades such that I could directly (personally) build or refurbish our house for my wife's benefit; hence what I do for a living and the money I earn for doing it do not directly benefit my wife, only me. (There is some overlap between the kinds of work that she and I do, and I assist her from time to time by teaching her or pointing her in the right direction -- but that too is only an indirect benefit to her of my job-related skills.)

Similarly, nearly any daily activity I perform is not directly for my wife's benefit. About all I can think of at the moment that lies within my skills and would be directly for her benefit, is cooking, and light medical treatment (e.g., massages if she has hurt herself.)

I did buy the house (completely funded and paid off by myself), which is to her direct benefit, but the direct activities there consisted only of deciding on the offer value, signing the offer, and signing the purchase and mortgage papers -- only about 2 hours of direct activities, and that about 7 years ago. The cross-dressing has kept me sane and healthy enough to hold down a job to be able to afford the upkeep and improvements on the house and contents thereof, is, as you correctly point out, not a direct benefit to her, for all that it has enabled me to improve her "quality of life".

Thus, although what you wrote is interesting and evocative, at the moment (and it is fairly late and I'm tired), it seems to me that in a typical modern urban marriage (especially where both partners are earning a decent wage), that there isn't really all that much that a husband can do that is directly for the benefit of the wife. Which, unfortunately, seems to "wash out" the cross-dressing component of the evocation.

[Karen564]

Karen, re-examine your previous posting:



Do you see the difference between that and what you just wrote? The first posted says "typically male mind" and the newer says "female mind". You appear to have gotten confused by The Fallacy Of The Excluded Middle: you have set up the logical premise that the only choices are "typically male" and "female", and that no-one can be anything else other than those two things.

If you review my response to you, you will see that no-where in my response did I claim to have a typical female mind: what I said was that the assessment of professionals is that I do not have a typical mind, and in particular that I do not fit the typical male pattern. If one does not adhere to The Law Of The Excluded Middle when it comes to gender, then that leaves me as at a minimum being an atypical male, and quite possibly as being some mix of male and female. In either case, the mind that "the old goat" is "showing off" is not one that is "typically male", what-ever it may be.

If you review my past postings, you will find that I do not identify as either typical male or as TS (and medical professionals (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1951132&postcount=36) do not consider me to be either of those (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1957443#post1957443)): I identify as non-polarized gender-fluid; the approximate label (if one is going to label at all) would probably be "androgynous"; as, though, I feel that label to have overtones that are not appropriate to me, I usually just shorten it to saying that I am TG (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1953370#post1953370).




What, all of it? Or just some parts of it? For example, are you, in making that statement, making the claim that I was incorrect when I said,



in response to Acadeca saying,



That is, are you claiming that it is true all over the world that in every case where a wife is "straight", that she "needs a masculine man" at least as much as her husband needs to dress? If so, then is your claim evidentially based, or is your claim based upon your personal definition of "straight" -- i.e., that any wife who does not "need a masculine man" as much as the husband needs to dress, is, de facto, not "straight" ?

OK, enough is enough, Your post is making me very dizzy....lol
So what your saying is you have neither the mind of a male or a female, and more like somewhere in between then, maybe???....

All I know now from your latest post is, besides making my head spin, is that you have way more issues that I ever had...and I that I feel very sorry for you in some strange way, and wish I could help you in some way too, but I know I cant, because what's wrong is far beyond my knowledge..

Take care..

[Acadeca]

That is, are you claiming that it is true all over the world that in every case where a wife is "straight", that she "needs a masculine man" at least as much as her husband needs to dress? If so, then is your claim evidentially based, or is your claim based upon your personal definition of "straight" -- i.e., that any wife who does not "need a masculine man" as much as the husband needs to dress, is, de facto, not "straight" ?

If the wife is fine with it, who cares what she is? But THIS particular wife is turned off by it. But according to you, she, not the CDer, has to adjust and change.

As far as your talk about definitions: Hey, why should CDers not be the one to broaden their definition of femininity and just wear jeans, a t-shirt, and old sneakers, as many females do? This would be a good compromise that would doubtless make the SO much happier?

Of course, that's not what most CDers want. They want to be FEMININE, to wear fancy dresses. And similarly, the wives who don't accept CDing want a MASCULINE husband. If the husband had been honest from the start, if he had told her about how his femme identity and all, both parties could have gone their separate ways and pursued other partners who would have made them happier. But the CDer wasn't willing to do that. How is the resulting problem now his wife's fault?

[AmandaM]

It's not the wife's fault. But, the CDer can only stop by becoming depressed, moody, etc. If that's acceptable to both parties, then fine. The other options are divorce, or some sort of acceptance on her part.

[Hope]

I really want to just love her, and be "the MAN" she married. But I CD! And like it. I don't want to become a woman. I don't want to be with anybody else. I just want her to love all of me. Not just what she wants of me. I have been with her for 20 years, and she isn't perfect, but I live with those things. And some of the things she does, I hate to the core. But she doesn't stop or change. SO!

Why Can't I???

Have you asked HER that - in these words?

[Acadeca]

It's not the wife's fault. But, the CDer can only stop by becoming depressed, moody, etc. If that's acceptable to both parties, then fine. The other options are divorce, or some sort of acceptance on her part.

Acceptance on her part can also result in depression, moodiness, etc--for the same reasons. And "some kind of" reduction in dressing on the part of the CD is also an option.

[sandra-leigh]

So what your saying is you have neither the mind of a male or a female, and more like somewhere in between then, maybe???....

Yeah, with the proviso that I might be one of the people for whom even "in between" is not right either. There are some people who can reasonably be understood as being positioned somewhere on a line between "male" and "female", but it isn't clear yet that I am one of them. Describing me is probably going to require multiple dimensions in a non-Riemann geometry :o



All I know now from your latest post is, besides making my head spin, is that you have way more issues that I ever had...and I that I feel very sorry for you in some strange way, and wish I could help you in some way too, but I know I cant, because what's wrong is far beyond my knowledge..

Take care..

Thank you for your note of concern. I do not disagree with anything you wrote there. You are correct, I have multiple difficult issues in my life. I'm working on them from multiple angles, and attempting to fix what I can and attempting to adapt to what is beyond my control.


So... can we now agree that if your experiences and thoughts lead you to disagree with something I say, that it would be better to say that you disagree rather than to say that what I wrote should not be paid attention to?



If the wife is fine with it, who cares what she is? But THIS particular wife is turned off by it. But according to you, she, not the CDer, has to adjust and change.


I suggest, Acadeca, that you review what I actually wrote and what I did not write.

You wrote that "She needs a masculine husband as much as you need to dress", and you did so without apparent evidence as to the extent of the original poster's need to dress. My response was to point out that for some of us (and by extension, possibly the original poster), the need to dress is very high indeed. Call it a "biological defect" or a "brain disorder" if you need to in order to understand the situation: some of us literally get sick (in a measurable medical sense for some of us!) if we do not cross-dress.

Can you cite anything in the posting that originated this thread, or in anything posted previously by the original poster, that allows you to make an absolute statement that the original poster's wife needs a "masculine husband" to the point of being incapacitated if her husband is not sufficiently "masculine" ? If not, then you are going on supposition or stereotypes or myth.


But according to you, she, not the CDer, has to adjust and change.


I am not aware of having made any comment in this thread about what the original poster's wife should or should not do.

You made an absolute statement that presumed detailed knowledge of both the wife and the husband's internal mental states and biological conditions, and offered no supporting evidence for that absolute statement. I addressed the incorrectness of making that absolute statement without clear definition of terms. That doesn't mean that I agree with the husband; nor does it mean that I disagree with the wife: it means I disagree with the making of unclear absolute statements, especially ones not backed by evidence.

[Satrana]

i was trying to point out in my original post here not just the clothes, but all of the other things we do to emulate women. when fully dressed it would be in my mind similar to a woman taking something to grow lots of body hair, have facial hair, take up male mannerisms, stuff their pants in front, male interests, etc.

Irrelevant to this thread since there is no indication that the OPs wife has ever seen him dressed or there has been any discussion about the degree of emulation involved, if any.

This thread revolves around the FEAR that many women feel at the very idea that a man might want to embrace and express feminine feelings. This fear is based on preconceptions of sexual stereotypes of what constitutes a man.

The OP has a choice to either play along and present a false image of himself being a "real man" to keep his wife's sensitivities happy, or he needs to find a way to get his wife to look inward and address her transphobia. This will most likely need third party assistance and is probably the only route open where both of them can remain happy in the relationship.

And both of them deserve happiness. Any scenario where one has to sacrifice themselves just to please the other will only destroy the relationship.

[AndreaCD 2007]

Dina i'm with you ..i do belive that women have all the power..

[charlytuna]

It saeem like the right thing at right time I told my wife all about crossdressing just when we start to get serious with each other, after a few month of dating and before we got the thought of getting married and it worked well for us

[StacyCD]

As a society we've now grown to the point where most people accept that being gay or lesbian is something that people are born with--it's not a mental illness or something deviant. In a similar way, I didn't sit down one day and choose to become a crossdresser! Rather, I just simply recognized that there is a feminine part of my being. I also recognized that supressing that part has had some very negative consequences to me and the people around me. I onlt hope some day most people will accept that hetero-sexual crossdressing isn't a mental illness that needs to be cured or some deviant sexual behavior and that some people are 'born to be crossdressers' just like some people are born to be musicians, poets.

[kellycan27]

As a society we've now grown to the point where most people accept that being gay or lesbian is something that people are born with--it's not a mental illness or something deviant. In a similar way, I didn't sit down one day and choose to become a crossdresser! Rather, I just simply recognized that there is a feminine part of my being. I also recognized that supressing that part has had some very negative consequences to me and the people around me. I onlt hope some day most people will accept that hetero-sexual crossdressing isn't a mental illness that needs to be cured or some deviant sexual behavior and that some people are 'born to be crossdressers' just like some people are born to be musicians, poets.

Most people either do tolerate or do not care one way or another. It's way less than the majority that that keeps people shaking in their boots. Seems like enough though. It also occurs to me that the majority of people who blame unaccepting society seem to be doing it from the safety of the closet or from behind closed doors. ( Not singling any one person out here... just a thought.)

Kelly

[Acadeca]

I suggest, Acadeca, that you review what I actually wrote and what I did not write.

You wrote that "She needs a masculine husband as much as you need to dress", and you did so without apparent evidence as to the extent of the original poster's need to dress. My response was to point out that for some of us (and by extension, possibly the original poster), the need to dress is very high indeed. Call it a "biological defect" or a "brain disorder" if you need to in order to understand the situation: some of us literally get sick (in a measurable medical sense for some of us!) if we do not cross-dress.

Can you cite anything in the posting that originated this thread, or in anything posted previously by the original poster, that allows you to make an absolute statement that the original poster's wife needs a "masculine husband" to the point of being incapacitated if her husband is not sufficiently "masculine" ? If not, then you are going on supposition or stereotypes or myth.




Can YOU find any evidence that a MAJORITY cross dressers absolutely to dress--or they'll become ill? It's hard to tell from this forum,because abstinent CDers are unlikely to hang out here. But even on crossdressers.com, I've seen posts from several abstinent CDers, including Bridget. They admit that it's difficult, and they think about it often, but they do it to keep their marriages together. Sure, SOME CDers may break down if they don't dress, but not all.

And the wives? A relative of mine is the wife of a CD and she's the reason I'm here. Before her husband's confession that he CDs, she was a happy, cheerful woman.
Now, she wishes for nothing more than to keep her family together, and she's tried as hard as she can to accept. But she just can't--it makes her physically ill to see or imagine her husband in female dress. She's had several breakdowns and is now on a variety of antidepressants.

I don't blame her husband for being a CD--only for lying to her (by omission) in order to bring her to the alter.

[NicoleScott]

It doesn't do any good (now) to say that she should have been told before marriage. It's been discussed many times here, so not to dwell on it.

Only one person in the family benefits by cd-ing? How many are harmed by it? I say none. It's not the cd-ing that harms anyone, it's reactions to it (as a matter of choice) that cause the harm.

I agree with some others that this may be a deal-breaker for the the marriage. But it isn't necessary for the kids to go down with the ship. Lots of kids survive divorce, especially when both parents love them enough to keep them out of the fight. What a shame when parents make kids the weapon and the prize.

So how does the marriage survive? Maybe it's Don't Ask Don't Tell. It works for lots of marriages.

[Acadeca]

Only one person in the family benefits by cd-ing? How many are harmed by it? I say none. It's not the cd-ing that harms anyone, it's reactions to it (as a matter of choice) that cause the harm.



One can say the same thing about QUITTING CDing. It's not stopping that causes problems, it's the CD's reaction to stopping.

All I ask is that you try to understand what your wives are going through before insisting that they accept the new you long after the wedding. What if, 10-20 years into the marriage, they suddenly insisted on dressing like, say, an animal or whatever most of the time. AND they wanted you to have sex with them dressed in their choice attire?

To many wives, that's how it feels to suddenly learn that their husband is a CD.

[sandra-leigh]

Can YOU find any evidence that a MAJORITY cross dressers absolutely to dress--or they'll become ill?

Irrelevant. It is you that made the first claim (that the wife needs a masculine husband as much as he needs to dress), so it is up to you to prove your claim, or to modify the claim. Do you know the details of the wife's mental and medical conditions? Do you also know the details of the husband's mental and medical conditions? If not, then you are projecting.

Are you familiar with the saying, "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail!" ? All you have is a hammer (the experience of your friend), but not everything is a nail -- the variety of human relationships may not literally be infinite, but it is at least up in the 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 range.

[ReineD]

It is not a black/white, either he CDs or not issue. Marriage with a TG is difficult, for both parties. For now I will use the pronoun "he" for differentiation purposes.

Not every TG knows at the marrying age the depth of their need for femme expression. It takes a long time to cut through being raised as a male. I've observed here that self-acceptance of being TG is progressive. At any rate, he eventually needs to express his feminine self more than perhaps wearing lingerie occasionally and pleasing himself. His wife needs to be with a man. If he is TS headed for 24/7, obviously the marriage will not survive.

If he identifies as a male CD, he still is a man who wants to express his femininity. In this case the ideal is for his wife to acknowledge his need and either participate if she is OK with it, or if she isn't, then give him the time and the space to do so .... if they want to save the marriage. If they love each other and want their marriage to succeed, it is all about compromise. He may CD a little less than might be ideal for him, and his wife may give him more time and space than might be ideal for her.

He still will be her husband. If he increasingly wishes to eradicate his male self in favor of being femme, or if he cannot be happy getting back to guy mode and he "makes" himself do so in order to appease his wife, then he needs to examine whether he is TS or not. If he is TS, the kindest thing to do is to be honest with himself and his wife so they can make appropriate decisions for themselves.

:2c:

[NicoleScott]

All this back and forth and personal points of view has gotten away from the original issue: how to resolve the apparent standoff.
Here's a guy who wants to occasionally crossdress, perhaps just in certain articles of clothing. No mention of dressing completely or going out en femme. Stated that he did not want to become a woman. Otherwise is able and willing to be the man, father and husband. She says no way, no how, no time.
If you push for acceptance, it could end the marriage. And, an angry ex could blab to the employer, ending your employment. I know, living in the deep South, I would absolutely lose my job if my boss found out about me. We can argue whether that's fair or not, but it's the way it is.
So I think the best solution in this case under the given circumstances is: Don't bring it up again, dress privately, get a better storage place, be careful, and enjoy yourself.
Doc, as usual, provides simple clarity and wisdom.

[JamieOH]

wow! Fericely intense reading.. This thread is wild.. My personal experience is as follows. I have dressed "in the closet" for many years, since I was about 6 or 7.. I repressed it for a few years, ignoring it as best I could from about 24-27.. Then I started back up again.. in the attic, or garage.. wherever I could stash a few things.. only doing it now and then.. Finally, I was at walmart one night, and saw this very cute pajama set, (Cami and panty) and some nice comfy cotton panties.. I bought em, and took em home and told my wife. Well, that went over like a lead balloon.. She gave in to the panties... Then finally gave in to the cami for sleeping only.. I then after a few months, introduced a new nightgown.. that went over tensley, but ok.. after she got used to that, I came out and told her I like to dress more than just at night.. And that didnt go so good.. She looked disgusted when she saw me looking THAT feminine.. it hurt me to see her that way.. Not that she didnt accept me, but that I had failed her.. I know what I made myself out to be when we got together, and that was not what I really am.. In my defense, I was reperessing it.. Thinking I didnt need it.. That it WASN'T me.. but it was.. I am a crosdresser.. And HOW.. I love all things femme.. Does that mean I have to deny myself this? No.. Does this mean I have the right to dress this way, and be myself 24/7? Yes.. Should I expect her to be understanding and supportive of me and help me transition into this feminine persona? HE** NO! She has the right to be happy, and expect that the man she met is the man she married, and that man is going to be there for her all the days of her life.. If I come out now and say hey, btw, I now want you to also love and accept this OTHER womanly part of me, and you'll have to suck it up.. Well, that is wrong.. I will still dress, on occassion.. I "underdress" all the time.. I wear nightgowns, and nighties to bed, and she has very graciously accepted that. I love her for that.. If I can't deal with this arrangement, and she cant deal with me dressing, then I will have to allow her to leave. Though it would break my heart. But I certainly can't EXPECT her to be supportive. And I dont want to rock the boat, because I know the bed I am in I made.. and I must lay in it. I am truly envious of those who go shopping together, and to dinner, and such.. but alas, this isn't to be so much for me and my lovely wife. But who knows what the future holds..