shamanism, tantra and CDing

[cordgrass]

More questions, and let me know if I am brushing up against any boundaries here on language, I don't want to break the rules. I'm a witch, and I've read quite a bit on shamanism. From what I have read, one of the main signs a person was "chosen by the gods" to be a shaman was a tendency for crossdressing. In fact, part of the initiation rituals for shamans in many parts of the world is forced crossdressing--being made to dress and live as the opposite sex for a period of weeks.

Also from what I've read and experienced, having rising kundalini energy opening up the chakras, particularly the fourth, sixth and seventh chakras, can lead to having mystical experiences and contact with the "spirit world". Not saying that the spirit world is real, just that having activity at those areas can give the sensation that the spirit world is real.

So I have to ask, have any of you ladies either experienced transcendent mystical states or had experiences with unusual sensations at the chakras (this would be the center of the chest, the center of the forehead, and the top of the head). Or do you find that you are automatically practicing retention, enabling the sexual energy to rise along your spine? Very curious.

[Kelly DeWinter]

My usual response would be to post a half wit reponse, but Cordgrass seems so serious here, that I will see how this thread goes.

There seems to be a bit of polytheisim involved here. How does making a priest or priestess forced to live as the other gender enhance ones mystical connection ? I would assume that forcing anyone to do anything is not enlightenment, but a form of forced submission ?

Kelly

[cordgrass]

Well, it's not forced as in being unexpected. The potential shaman-to-be can obviously decline and drop out of the shaman initiation process.

I should mention it applies to women as well as men, female shamans also go through the crossdressing process and often crossdress once they are shamans.

From what I have found, in many mystical traditions, "enlightenment" is often equated with having a particular experience of outpouring at the crown chakra. I have experienced this myself. The sensation is one of losing the sense of self and merging completely with cosmos. I have been doing research and it seems to have something to do with the right brain, particularly the limbic system.

Often for men to get their sexual energy to rise to their heads requires considerable sexual abstinence.

[Kate Simmons]

Like CDing itself, there is the tendency to put names and labels on all of this stuff. If one really embraces the feelings , makes them their own and integrates them the whole thing becomes demystified. Being an "independent contractor" so to speak is scary for many and not really for those who are followers. We begin to realize that CDing is really only the tip of the iceberg in terms of potential. Then we begin to learn what our true purpose here is and proceed to fulfill our personal grid program.:)

[Billie1]

A very interesting question.

Whilst not being very familiar with the concept, I find it that even being able to entertain the notion of expanding beyond one's accepted role, and migrate to another is an indication that CD'ers are a special group. Regardless if we were 'selected' or not, it shows the ability of not to be restrained by arbitrary social standards. Whether this translates into the realm of mysticism, or not, would be a matter of individual interpetation, and deserves the proper amount of respect. We are only as free as we allow ourselves to be.

Be well.

[Rachel M]

Interesting post. There are times when out dressed we interact with society presenting as female. As a male we can view life and experience walking in her shoes. We in turn can get other reactions and feed back. Even though its us in those shoes, our male persona can sit back and observe and experience it as an out of body experience.
Rachel

[docrobbysherry]

This was pretty common discussion at parties back then. Of course, we had peyote buttons, acid, and DMT treated pot, to help us "expand our consciousness and commune with the universe"!:devil:

I remember; watching the grass eat a sheep, thinking the drapes were alive, and that I could fly! I remember receiving epiphanies during these episodes, where I KNEW the answers to solving life's, and the world's problems. :brolleyes:

The next day, when I READ the "earth shaking resolutions" I had written down the nite before, they made very little sense. :heehee:

These days, I'm QUITE satisfied with the answer to the question; "How will I get thru the day?"
The world and life, can take care of themselves!:D

[Kate Simmons]

That's because we are limited to three dimensions here RS. When we bend the rules and bend our perception the usual rules do not apply and the solutions probably work. Coming back to 3D, the physics are limited.:)

[Danica_7]

I have meditated on my gender,and the longer and harder i thought about my being female, the energy got stronger and stronger coming from my center and out and up my spine ...
almost euphoric.

Im a witch as well. I've never been into being a priest, its always felt so second rate to me..
But using my female voice to start the circle feels like its stronger and bears more weight...

I would say that whatever your true gender is.. will resonate with the most energy for you.

[vetobob9]

Interestingly I just finished a class on the anthropology of religion. Among some Native American groups, cross dressers and bi people were considered extremely powerful shamans.

When my neice came out as bi, I emailed this link to her because it sums up nicely how cross dressers and bisexuals are considered magical creatures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism

just scroll down to the gender and sexuality section. Also I recommend Magic, Witchcraft and Religion another excellent source for more information on the subject.

[vetobob9]

My usual response would be to post a half wit reponse, but Cordgrass seems so serious here, that I will see how this thread goes.

There seems to be a bit of polytheisim involved here. How does making a priest or priestess forced to live as the other gender enhance ones mystical connection ? I would assume that forcing anyone to do anything is not enlightenment, but a form of forced submission ?

Kelly

To my knowledge it is never forced. It has to come naturally. It provides a way for a person who would otherwise be an outcast, to take up an important role in society. It's how primitive society deals with cross dressers.
This is probably preferable to the modern attitude of "lynch them." lol

[vetobob9]

This was pretty common discussion at parties back then. Of course, we had peyote buttons, acid, and DMT treated pot, to help us "expand our consciousness and commune with the universe"!:devil:

I remember; watching the grass eat a sheep, thinking the drapes were alive, and that I could fly! I remember receiving epiphanies during these episodes, where I KNEW the answers to solving life's, and the world's problems. :brolleyes:

The next day, when I READ the "earth shaking resolutions" I had written down the nite before, they made very little sense. :heehee:

These days, I'm QUITE satisfied with the answer to the question; "How will I get thru the day?"
The world and life, can take care of themselves!:D

Not all shamans use drugs to do their spirit walks. Many times, simple dancing for hours on end will accomplish the same thing. Studies have shown that people who dance and dance and dance will often end up in a trance.

Likewise, not all shaman groups have the concept of the chakra. The chakra is actually comes from the old world and is part of the modern world's New Age movement which blends bits and peices of different religions together.

It was good thing I had to take that GE class for my degree. It was rather enjoyable and I learned quite a bit from it. I had to take another class on language and culture and apparently the clothes you choose to wear form a type of visual language. When you cross dress or you dress any other way, you are making a statement.
Cross dressing becomes interesting when you look at it from an anthropological perspective. Next semester, because I have to have one more GE class to graduate I am taking another anthropology course, Sex and Gender. Any guesses as to what that is about? ha ha.

[Kate Simmons]

Vetobob brings up a lot of good points. I have personally experienced much of this stuff. I was awakened and the CDing was part and parcel of the vehicle for doing so. I have experienced the kundalini energies and the hours of dancing. What happens with that is you become one with the music and therefore one with the energies. What you do with those energies determines what role you play in the program. As I mentioned they have names for this stuff but defining the processes is not necessary. Once one experiences them you know they exist and are viable forces to be reckoned with. Unless they are used responsibly, however, the rebound could be hard to deal with as the rule of energy return always applies.:)

[Sherry-Stephanie]

Among some Native American groups, cross dressers and bi people were considered extremely powerful shamans.

I've read some articles over the past few years on this topic not as it applies to crossdressing but rather as it applied to bi sexuality....but I've also used the term "enlightenment" in some of my previous posts as it pertains to the spirit or soul as we reach into our female side of "self" as it pertains to why we crossdress or why we are brought to this desire to dress as a woman....

I believe that we are able to move to dressing "enfemme" because we have this special spirit within that allows us to reach into our female side....and this female side can simply be for some the "enfemme" side and for others it includes the enfemme side as well as the bi-sexual side....

I also believe that every himan has a male side and a female side within, but only those who are "enlightened" are able to bring this out....

My belief comes from both religious points as in Genesis and God's creation of man and woman as well as from biological aspects as the creation of life coems from both the male and female coming together as one and creating with the sperm and egg the individual...so as in Genesis and biological creation we are born both male and female...

But that's my feelings and as comfortable as I am with these two concepts I suggest that others find their own values as it relates to their crossdressing validation.....

[Kelly DeWinter]

"center of the chest, the center of the forehead, and the top of the head"

Yes I have experiened these at various times in my life, most commonly reffered to as "Acid Reflux, Headaches, and Migrains". When all is said and done, mystic experiencies revolve around the use of some form of opiates, either legal or illegal. The only mystic portion seems to be the rituals and words to describe what was 'seeb' or 'felt' at the time. It's amazing since the advent of the internet age, how quickly mysticisim spreads.

Kelly

[gabe]

I have experienced moments of enlightenment, but I would not call it mystical. I believe you need extended periods of contemplation and solitude to reach a level of revelation. Unfortunately I am too firmly attached to the real world of deadlines and meetings, I can never break away long enough. I am into the practice of retention, I find the sexuality aspect of tantra very gratifying.

[ChrisP]

Hi Cordie,

Enjoying your posts, BTW.

I've been a practicing mystic since my teens, and have explored Wiccan practices, native american shamanism (with native americans), tantra, and taoism.

I consider myself taoist, and have stayed on this path the longest.

Yes...I've had some revelatory experiences while dressed...completely unexpected, and very much a merging of male and female energy (with the feminine principle predominant). It also brought a genuine sense of connectedness with everything around me.

I practice meditation regularly, and I am attracted to what certain buddhist and taoist practioners call "formlessness", where one lets go of their identification as male/female, human, inanimate. Kinda hard to put into words, but liberating nonetheless.

My femininity is somehow tied into my spiritual nature, as is my desire to serve (which I think you can probably appreciate).

It's a funny world, isn't it?

Chris

[Josephine 1941]

Hello again, u should ck your other blog of 12 / 24 . This one is interesting to. Being in Boston I wounder if you are doing a paper of women that love men that are C D's. When you answer the other one for me I will then be ably to expand on my GG who has study in India. What you ask in this one is something she has alredy done. JO:daydreaming::confused2::stirthepot::CheshireGum mi:

[cordgrass]

Another post of mine? Not sure which one you are referring to.

I'm not doing a study or anything like that. Just curious.

ChrisP, thanks for the feedback. I thought they might be connected, from things I've read on a taoist board I frequent.

[Wen4cd]

Eek, where's my shaman quote?

"The shaman is unique partly because he or she has cultivated a special relationship to the other half of his or her personality, which has become a living entity, a real presence." -Sanford

I've been 'there,' and hit this point occasionally, usually not on purpose. (I think it comes with my natural inasnity, unfortunately.) There's a lot of fluxuating meaning, and this practice/view/whatever can lead to a lot of pain along with the vision.

But in full effect, you can actually see the big patterns of synchronicity overlaying reality, and it's magical. I can almost just "think her name" in these times and channel the energy, and the universe swoops up to great heights. I've seen crazy things happen when her presence is in full force.

Yeah, then it crashes, lol, and I can't get 'back' without a lot of effort and panic. Usually about 2 days later I am on the threshold of hell, and the 'big vision' persists to the point where people start to look like ghosts, cardboard cutouts, etc.

But it's still fun to be able to make my wife squeal with just a thought. That's the only way back for me. Seeing her feel the projection and audiably respond proves I'm not just insane. "Eeeee! You're doing it again!" Otherwise I'd be throwing things at walls just to prove to myself the world is still there.
:O

[Joanie_Shakti]

More questions, and let me know if I am brushing up against any boundaries here on language, I don't want to break the rules. I'm a witch, and I've read quite a bit on shamanism. From what I have read, one of the main signs a person was "chosen by the gods" to be a shaman was a tendency for crossdressing. In fact, part of the initiation rituals for shamans in many parts of the world is forced crossdressing--being made to dress and live as the opposite sex for a period of weeks.

Also from what I've read and experienced, having rising kundalini energy opening up the chakras, particularly the fourth, sixth and seventh chakras, can lead to having mystical experiences and contact with the "spirit world". Not saying that the spirit world is real, just that having activity at those areas can give the sensation that the spirit world is real.

So I have to ask, have any of you ladies either experienced transcendent mystical states or had experiences with unusual sensations at the chakras (this would be the center of the chest, the center of the forehead, and the top of the head). Or do you find that you are automatically practicing retention, enabling the sexual energy to rise along your spine? Very curious.

Hi Cordgrass, except for a bout of athieism in the mid 1980s for a few years, I've had an interest in shaman related things for as long as I can remember. If I recall, and it's been a long time since I read his books, but I think Carlos Casteneda had to live as a woman for a year during his training. And you can find a couple of post around here that mention the male/female aspects of some Hindu and Buddist dieties. I myself am enamored with the pictures of Shiva/Parvati (or Shakti) merged into one being.

My own personal experience has been spotty, only coming together in the last few years. I did a lot of "book learnin'" when I was younger and dabbled lightly in various occult techniques I read about when I was younger. As there was no structure to this, about all it did was make me a little crazy and I abandoned it all and started calling mysefl an athiest.

About ten years ago, after a question about my spirituality by a GG I admired, I started doing my reading again. This led me to Wayne Dyer, who led me to my meditation teacher, Dattatriya Siva Baba. I'm what he calls one of his "WWW" followers, "World Wide Wishy-washy," as I'm still not disciplined after ten years of this.

Anyway, it was less than a year from my start with his meditation techniques and attending his seminars that I started feeling a comfortable, fuzzy feeling in my forehead, at the "third eye" area. It's not there all of the time and goes away for long periods if I'm stressed, but I really like it when it's there. I have also been working with the "sushumna," and can easily feel the energy move from my tailbone, up the spine, and out the top of my head at will.

They say when the kundalini opens up only partially, it can make you go mad. I've dressed off and on since I was a pre teen in the 1970s, but around this time of last year, my dressing really took over. I sort of went crazy about it. Spent about $1000+ on new clothes and last spring, started shaving my legs and trimming my chest hair short. Baba has a lot of emphasis on the goddess aspect, and I've started to embrace the goddess within. :battingeyelashes:

There is a lot of interest right now in 2012 and the end of the Mayan calendar. The end of the calendar doesn't mark the end of the world, like some say, but rather, the end of a period. The word doesn't end at December 31st, but rolls over to another year, so does the Mayan calendar. The Hindus believe that we are at the end of Kali Yuga, or the dark age, and are starting Sataya Yuga, or the golden age, and this is what I like to believe too.

In my readings on 2012, I have found there are a lot of writiers saying that this new age will be more female dominated and males are going to fall back behind in their importance to things in the world. This last year, I have started to feel that people like we forum participants, with both masculine and feminine tendencies, may have a special place to be participants in the new awareness that is dawning. So instead of supressing my feminine feelings, I am starting to embrace and nuture the goddess within.

I forgot to mention above that I now put on a dress and underthings to invoke the goddess when I meditate in the mornings before work.

[cordgrass]

When the energy moves out of the top of your head, do you have a loss of self and a feeling of oneness with the cosmos?

I give out Shakti energy from my chest.

All very interesting, so the crossdressing helps you get in touch with the goddess.

Kundalini rising can make you go temporarily crazy whether it's partial or full. You march to a different drummer for a while. :)

[Wen4cd]

Well, at least I have some more new terms for the goofy busting out that I've been experiencing this year :D

I've been using Jungian terms: anima, individuation, collective unconscious, etc... They usually go across the board, but don't give one a real personal symbolic framework to protect one from unconscious divinity.

With no personal framework, I've been tearing myself to shreds, what you might call 'kundalini syndrome,' I guess. Rebirthing/expansion pangs. At least the mental side of it. Looking at the rosarium, you could say I move with crisis through those stages. Last week the panic attacks peaked to the point where I thought I was having a stroke.

But I like your terms. And I like certain dualist models (http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq87/fiennaf/RadhaGovinda.jpg) of the unconscious/cosmos. I'll be needing a set of symbols and tools that keep me from imbalance in the future, because this keeps coming back to me like a roller coaster ride, and I really don't want to be as daffy as I have been lately.

[Frédérique]

I'm a witch, and I've read quite a bit on shamanism.

And, of course, since you are apparently in Boston, you are near Salem, MA, site of the 17th century “Witch Trials.” I’m an artist, originally from Massachusetts, and I’ve read quite a bit of history. I think your “profession” is the direct result of your environment, i.e. Puritanical Boston and the surrounding area. The stuffiness and lack of sympathy towards females in the latter gave rise to the inevitable outburst and subsequent suppression of the so-called “witches,” wouldn’t you say? I know one thing – that event put Salem on the map, and they keep the witch connection going for tourism. I know, because I’ve lived there, and I came from a very Puritanical town (Hingham) – I know how things work in the Land of Baked Beans, believe me. May I suggest walking around in the fresh air? Take a look around – it’s the 21st century, and the Puritans have all but disappeared. You can be FEMALE now, and not be persecuted for behavior that puritanical males feel is at odds with their repressive dogma…

Please don’t take my words the wrong way, but I am very cynical about all attempts at over-thinking feelings that are inborn and perfectly natural. I look for obvious explanations. Being a witch, do you feel special and apart from society at large, like a crossdresser does? Is there a craving to be different, being funneled into a narrow corridor of your own making, simply because you never fit in anywhere? If so, we may have many things in common. I don’t think about shamanism or Tantrism, simply because these “ideas” were not part of my world growing up. Being a confused westerner looking for answers that don’t exist is not my hobby – I’m content to be a westerner, but I embrace the “confusion.” Can’t I just proclaim that I know who I am and leave it at that? The deeper you look into things, the less you’ll find (in terms of satisfying answers), and you’ll eventually wind up where you began…:straightface:


Or do you find that you are automatically practicing retention, enabling the sexual energy to rise along your spine?

I find that my sexual energy rises in front of me, and I am not alone in this curious sensation. Retention is ultimately counter-productive…:heehee:

[kathie225]

I believe a key to understanding nature and our repective places therein is tied to "balance", an equal and open minded recognition and appreciation of all things natural. Because nature abhors a vacuum, living as others (in this case as the other gender) broadens the horizons and serves to educate (enlighten ?) persons to accept that which is different. Our society conditions us to be labeled and put into certain categories and engage in conduct consistent therewith. We as CD'ers are, seemingly, in society but not of the society because we don't follow the behavioral model of our category. So do shamans and other spiritual practioners deviate from behavioral norms. I believe that in their minds the behavioral deviations are not only permissible but are necessary to their spiritual work. Similarly, CD'ing is necessary to our "sanity" or purging would be more of a permanent solution.

This is MHO.

[cordgrass]

Well, at least I have some more new terms for the goofy busting out that I've been experiencing this year :D

I've been using Jungian terms: anima, individuation, collective unconscious, etc... They usually go across the board, but don't give one a real personal symbolic framework to protect one from unconscious divinity.

With no personal framework, I've been tearing myself to shreds, what you might call 'kundalini syndrome,' I guess. Rebirthing/expansion pangs. At least the mental side of it. Looking at the rosarium, you could say I move with crisis through those stages. Last week the panic attacks peaked to the point where I thought I was having a stroke.

But I like your terms. And I like certain dualist models (http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq87/fiennaf/RadhaGovinda.jpg) of the unconscious/cosmos. I'll be needing a set of symbols and tools that keep me from imbalance in the future, because this keeps coming back to me like a roller coaster ride, and I really don't want to be as daffy as I have been lately.

Yes, it's nice having an existing framework, helps with the sanity thing. :D Also there are lots of tricks out there for grounding, that helps too if things get too wild.