Defining masculinity

[Kate Simmons]

We usually are asked the question of how femimine we feel we are but I'm looking at things from the opposite side of the "coin". How do you define masculinity and how does that definition relate to who you are as an overall person and specifically to you as a CDer?:)

[Lorileah]

A sword may be considered masculine due to it's phallic shape and it's use in violent behavior. Face it Xena wasn't a barbie doll (but still sexy).

:)

I really don't have a specific definition of masculinity. There are masculine appearances like broad shoulders and narrow hips but they aren't confined to men. Beards I guess would be masculine but I have seen some pretty good mustaches on a few women. So I guess the question is where do we subjectively draw the line? Uh maybe when she steps to the urinal, unzips and urinates on the back of the urinal, while smoking a cigar and scratching, belching and looking to see what you have?

[Ze]

If I see one transman joke in here, I'm gonna bitch-slap all of yas. :tongueout

[Karren H]

My Blackberry doesn't have all the algebric symbols I need to accurately describe it, Erika! :)

[lavistaa62]

Most things are relative so I use compare and contrast to define most things. For masculinity I'd say it's Self-absorbed vice caring, competitive vice cooperative, inattentive vice concerned, obsessed vice pragmatic, inquiring vice interested, quiet vice listening, direct vice devisive. Not judgment from me on which is "better or worse", just saying.

[DeeInGeorgia]

I don't understand the "quiet vice listening". What do you mean? I can't usually get a word in edgewise because the men are not listening and want to be heard.

Dee

[minalost]

Maculinity is all the things I'm trying to escape from when I dress: the need to take charge, to be on the inituative in relationships, to be competative, to be the "bread winner," to be "physically protective," to be gross (belch, scrath, fart, and laugh about it!)...

And I'm fully aware that many GGs express many, and in some cases all, of these traits. They just happen to be a partial list of all the things I don't want to be when dressed up!

CDing for me is as much about escaping the traditional masculine roll as it is embracing the traditionally feminine roll.

Thoughts?

[aggi123]

From www.dictionary.com

–adjective
1. pertaining to or characteristic of a man or men: masculine attire.
2. having qualities traditionally ascribed to men, as strength and boldness.
3. Grammar. noting or pertaining to the gender of Latin, Greek, German, French, Spanish, Hebrew, etc., which has among its members most nouns referring to males, as well as other nouns, as Spanish dedo, “finger,” German Bleistift, “pencil.”
4. (of a woman) mannish.


I think this is one of those words that's really just perceived in many different ways. One of those words that has a definition which is different in different areas.

[Fab Karen]

A guy named Willy once said,"All the world's a stage, and all the men & women merely players."


If I see one transman joke in here, I'm gonna bitch-slap all of yas. :tongueout
Transmen "bitch-slap"? Oh wait, was that a joke? Uh-oh...:)


... Uh maybe when she steps to the urinal, unzips and urinates on the back of the urinal, while smoking a cigar and scratching, belching and looking to see what you have?
Hmm, so I must not be a real man then, aside from the use of urinals don't do those things.
"A man comes on the tv to tell me how white my shirts could be, but he can't be a man 'cause he does not smoke the same cigarettes as me"-R. Stones

[msniki48]

Maculinity is all the things I'm trying to escape from when I dress: the need to take charge, to be on the inituative in relationships, to be competative, to be the "bread winner," to be "physically protective," to be gross (belch, scrath, fart, and laugh about it!)...

And I'm fully aware that many GGs express many, and in some cases all, of these traits. They just happen to be a partial list of all the things I don't want to be when dressed up!

CDing for me is as much about escaping the traditional masculine roll as it is embracing the traditionally feminine roll.

Thoughts?

Mina, it seems that you and I are very much in sync when it comes to what we describe as masculine,[ and it is what I run away from when dressed] but alot of it comes down to the words you said "traditional masculine rolls" we have learned them from generations of training. Note how things are changing lately though....when i was a kid...the moms held the babies and chatted in the kitchen while the dads played cards in the smokey dining room....today i go to family [nieces and nephews] functions and the women are in the living room talking about careers and the guys are holding their children and making sure they have something to drink etc. [and talking recipies no less! ] Men can be everything womanly, but have been afraid to be, for fear of reprisal from other alpha men...women can be everything manly, and are doing so cause it is a sign of a STRONG woman.

i would like to be a fifties woman when i dress....and 50 yrs from now i wonder if that will be the traditional man's roll....lol

just a thought.

hugs niki

[Sarah Michelle]

Wow, I thought this would be easy to answer but all of a sudden the words have dried up...
Masculine is aggressive, competitive, judgmental, predatory, authoritarian. Sharing is done as an after-thought and for what it gains rather than out of social concern.
Winning isn't everything if you are the one winning.
Compromise is something you do to stave off defeat rather than an acceptable outcome in its own right.

[Kate Simmons]

Given all of the negative and/or obnoxious connotations of masculinity so far, I'm surprised the world is still in one piece.:heehee: Nothing like dissing yourself, right? Men have a lot of admirable qualities as well(Otherwise why would gals be attracted to us in the first place?) but it seems CDers especially repudiate that. What I'm really thinking is we can use all of our qualities as TG men to make the world a better place for everyone in spite of themselves. It has to start somewhere, no? We can't really complain about the situation, the system and attitudes unless we take positive measures to change it.:)

[Toni_Lynn]

Given all of the negative and/or obnoxious connotations of masculinity so far, I'm surprised the world is still in one piece.:heehee: Nothing like dissing yourself, right?

Ooooh! I am so hot under the collar after reading some of those hateful things that am having a hard time controlling what I want to say. Denise, I am so sorry that people are saying these things.

First -- an apology to the transmen who hold up the other half of the T sky. I admire the admire the masculine courage that you show in daring to be yourselves. Keep on my brothers.

Masculinity -- what is it. May not be able to define it, but I know it when I see it. And given the words written here about it, I see that they are worthy of being categorised under that which they are attempting to define.

To me, though, I see masculinity as kindness and gentleness toward to one I love. Being strong when she is weak. Being the one who withstand the fires of hell to protect her. Being one that evil must get through before they get to her.

And just who is her? She is first and foremost, my wife. She is the girl within me. She is love. She is knowledge.

And my masculinity, that strength associated with being male, is in no way diminished because I am wearing panties. Rather it is enhanced and delivered by the fullness of the person that I am.

Toni-Lynn

[trisha59]

A short story:
A squirrel had gotten into our rain barrel. We did not find it for several weeks when the smell told us something was not right. Neither my wife or I cherished the thought of taking care of that squirrel, but I did it. That is a pretty good example of masculinity

[minalost]

Okay, I'll admit I focused on all of the negative parts of masculinity in my prev post. There is no doubt in my mind that there is a positive side to masculinity. I don't even mind doing the masculine thing so much when in drab. But that's not what MY crossdressing is about. It's about not HAVING to do the masculine thing.

I also agree that the lines are becoming more and more blurred as time goes on. My problem is that I'm 50 years old, and like it or not, my ideas of masculine and feminine were fixed about 30 years ago. In my head I may know that some things no longer strictly fit into masculine or feminine, but emotionally I'll always equate some things with specific M/F rolls; and emotionally is where my crossdressing lives...

More food for thought...

:hugs:

[Jonianne]

Thanks for the reminder Denise. Often my first response to masculinity is the negative conations that are often implied, but there are good qualities that are the most important part of masculinity. Everyone, male and female, can use their positive masculine side.

Good masculinity, for me, is being a good husband, father and grandfather. Being a good son, brother, nephew or guy cousin or friend.

Good masculinity, for all, is using your strength to help or defend the helpless.

Good masculinity is being strong, but in a gentle and kind way.

Good masculinity is standing up for those who happen to be different and against those who would hurt and make fun of them.

Good masculinity is having the intestinal fortitude to face your fears and go out there and be yourself, wearing your dress and heels if you want or for our transmen brothers, wearing what you want and being who you are.

[Kate Simmons]

Thanks Joni for your nice response and thanks to everyone who responded so far. Our road to hoe isn't an easy one for any of us. This includes every member of this forum. Our biggest asset of all is our humanity, all the rest is trifiling. Once we embrace our humanity regardless of our personal persuasion or preference, we make serious strides forward, both individually and collectively as a community. Keep up the good work my friends.:)

[docrobbysherry]

And, u would, too! If U rode just one block with me in traffic!:devil:

Or, if someone said something derogatory, while I'm seriously drinking!:Angry3:

However, I don't drink very much anymore!:drink:

Now, if I could only teach Sherry to drive! I mite have to ask what masculinity is, too!:heehee:

[SuzanneBender]

Denise you always start some of the best threads.


Often my first response to masculinity is the negative conations that are often implied, but there are good qualities that are the most important part of masculinity. Everyone, male and female, can use their positive masculine side.

Joni great point. Lets face it girls we are fundamentalists when is comes to worshiping femininity and like most fundamentalists it is easy to forget that there are always positives on the other side.


an apology to the transmen who hold up the other half of the T sky. I admire the admire the masculine courage that you show in daring to be yourselves. Keep on my brothers.

Toni-Lynn you hit it on the head. If you want to see the positive of the masculine side of the gender spectrum just look at our T brothers.

I don't think of masculinity as frat boys sitting around the house drinking beer, burping, and watching porn. That is the definition of a sophomoric boy.

When I think of masculinity I think of the father that is willing to sacrifice his night with the boys to stay home and help his son with his pine wood derby car, or the husband that gives up his coat to his wife during a cold walk.

I guess the hearts of masculinity and femininity are not that different both start with love and self sacrifice.

[Tess]

Masculinity...we open jars and kills bugs. It's our job. What strikes me when thinking about this thread is how much being masculine is playing a role, at least for me. It's how we fill our space, speak, move, and our attitude. When something breaks I feel responsible for making it work again. Maybe it is generational, but I've always believed that I was the provider, the defender of the women folk, and somehow responsible every time a woman cried under my roof. The problem with this attitude is that I'm basically a wimp, a mediocre carpenter or mechanic at best, and sometimes feel like crying along with the girls.

[Nicole Erin]

I guess maybe doing certain dirty work or heavy lifting would be masculine.
probably all the things that are opposite of what we do.


A sword may be considered masculine due to it's phallic shape and it's use in violent behavior. Face it Xena wasn't a barbie doll (but still sexy).


I used to have fantasies about Xena kidnapping me and doing things to me that are SO sick I can't even say. :heehee:

[Alice Torn]

For a longtime, i thought only males fart, and poop, and belch!As for maleness, poet Robert Bly- "
What choice to we have, but to go down?(in the ashes) How can i be close to you, unless i am sad?"

[Bridget Fitzgerald]

To me it's a willingness to ignore pain, discomfort, phobias etc. and go on. To make due with what I have if need be and go on without complaining to those I care about. To be the one that does with out if there isn't enough. That sort of thing. To never let anyone I care about face anything I listed if I'm there to take the brunt.

[Alice Torn]

[FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"][SIZE="3"][/FONIn spite of occasional dressing binges, i know i am still a guy, because i have a survival mentality, am always ready to leave Dodge, and live on little. I have never owned a house, or newer car, or much furniture. Almost all birth girls have got to have their home and hearth, lots of nice things, newer cars. Not me. I have expected another great depression for decades, and it has begun. I love to get all dressed up, like the lady i never had, but, when major push comes to shove, it can be pushed way back, in priority.SIZE]

[Satrana]

Masculinity to me is based around key concepts like:

Strength - physical, mental and emotional
Leadership - taking command, planning, resolving disputes
Independence - learning how the world/technology works
Financial capability - providing for yourself and your family
Competitiveness - being the winner in life, ambition, getting the best job and the best girl
Manliness - you have to be a bit of a slob, rugged with rough edges which defines your character
Brutality and heroism - the need to fight to defend honor, your rights, to defend your family, to make the tough decisions no-one else dares to.

Although society gains by conditioning men to accept these roles which provide great advantages to others, one thing has always horrified me.

All the above roles make men become their own island of self-reliance, emotional distance and disdain for those who don't push themselves to succeed. Masculinity breeds loneliness. It barricades men from developing close bonds of dependence and trust with others.

I read somewhere that by the time men reach 50 the majority have only one close friend left in the world - usually their SO. All the others have been left behind in the quest to fulfill the masculine role which benefits everyone else except the man. But to whine about this is not manly is it so nobody is interested.

[pushpa]

Elisabeth Badinter, a french sociologist wrote a book 15 years ago called "XY, de l'identité masculine" (tr : XY, concerning male identiy)
She demonstrated that "male identity" does not exists.
When a baby is born, he (or she) knows immediatly what is to be a woman because the first human contact comes from the mother. The girl which stayed close to her mother, doesn't generally question her gender identity.
The boy has to differenciate his identiy from the mother by expressing signs of virility (competition, violence, etc). Boy's final choice of gender, generally appears after the puberty but more after teenagehood.
Sorry for the short sum up (the book worth reading...:)) but in a way being male is just not being female.
Pushpa

[Blaire]

It's not pretty, and I know I've stepped outside the too annoying field here, but I've heard many "differences between men and women," and the one that stands out the most in my memory is: "Women bitch, men cope."

Before y'all come down on me over that, let me expand on the four words that hang around, starting at the back, as it's simplest.

Men cope: A problem is solved. The bug is squished. The tire's changed. The railing is sanded. No complaints. No discussion. This is the simple one, not too many layers.

For the first part, add plenty of soft cushion to the second word, please. This is how I first heard it, and it stuck (and how!), but I'm sure different words can be used, particularly if there's any confusion about how the verb is being used. Who gave you the problem to solve? Pointed out the bug? Called you at 7am to come change the tire? Complained about the splintery hand-railing?

Point is in the man/woman dynamic, you have the guy, in who's very nature/nurture is to "suck it up", "tough it out", etc. And you have the woman, for whom the man does these things.

[sherri52]

Masculinity: I wear a dress and I wear it in public how can i get more masculine than that.

[lavistaa62]

I don't understand the "quiet vice listening". What do you mean? I can't usually get a word in edgewise because the men are not listening and want to be heard.

Dee

By this I meant that men are quite often (personally not professionally) quiet- they converse, explain and examine at a much lower level than women. Professionally men often state what they feel and expect or attempt to persuade those around them to come to this point of view. Women on the other hand are more likely to listen and then use that information to arrive at a decision in conjunction with others or discuss things when they are not actively seeking or even see the need for a "solution". The male method may arrive at a decision more quickly, the female method is may bring more people along with the process.

It's not a "truth" just an observation.

[Samantha43]

Masculinity to me is based around key concepts like:

Strength - physical, mental and emotional
Leadership - taking command, planning, resolving disputes
Independence - learning how the world/technology works
Financial capability - providing for yourself and your family
Competitiveness - being the winner in life, ambition, getting the best job and the best girl
Manliness - you have to be a bit of a slob, rugged with rough edges which defines your character
Brutality and heroism - the need to fight to defend honor, your rights, to defend your family, to make the tough decisions no-one else dares to.

Although society gains by conditioning men to accept these roles which provide great advantages to others, one thing has always horrified me.

All the above roles make men become their own island of self-reliance, emotional distance and disdain for those who don't push themselves to succeed. Masculinity breeds loneliness. It barricades men from developing close bonds of dependence and trust with others.

I read somewhere that by the time men reach 50 the majority have only one close friend left in the world - usually their SO. All the others have been left behind in the quest to fulfill the masculine role which benefits everyone else except the man. But to whine about this is not manly is it so nobody is interested.

I've never given it much thought, but it is a great question. What Satrana said sounds pretty spot on. Those are the traits society generally expects from men. Maybe that's one of the reasons we crossdress. To get away, at least in our own minds, from the responsibilities that society has placed on men.

[ReineD]

I read somewhere that by the time men reach 50 the majority have only one close friend left in the world - usually their SO. All the others have been left behind in the quest to fulfill the masculine role which benefits everyone else except the man. But to whine about this is not manly is it so nobody is interested.

Satrana, your description is good, but it does sound very lonely. And harsh.

What about men who have golf buddies or belong to men's clubs, or hang out with friends over a cold beer and watch football? Or the countless couples who have many couples friends to do things with? My parents belonged to such a group and I remember them having parties and get togethers as a group, or the women sometimes just meeting for coffee, and the men getting together for an afternoon of sports watching. Everyone eventually dispersed as people got on with their careers and moved to other areas. My parents divorced. But all through his life, my father continued to visit these couples on occasion and considered both the wives and husbands to be close friends and confidant(e)s.

My brother is 52 and divorced. He has always lived in the same city. He has many friends, single males and females, and couples that he does things with.

[Kate Simmons]

The bottom line to all of this for myself is that there is nothing wrong with being a man and enjoying it. Some of us have been blessed to enjoy the feelings from both the male and female roles because of who we are. It's not really who or what you are that counts, it's how you utilize what you have.:)

[Satrana]

Satrana, your description is good, but it does sound very lonely. And harsh.

What about men who have golf buddies or belong to men's clubs, or hang out with friends over a cold beer and watch football?

This boils down to how we define different forms of friendship. Between males it tends to be easy going and usually focuses around an activity like sports. This allows men to communicate and hang out together without the need to discuss feelings and personal issues. So men can have many friends but they are usually shallow and lack commitment and involvement.

You cannot tell how isolated a man is just be counting how many friends he claims to have. It is an issue of quality over quantity. Men do not suffer from social loneliness, they suffer from emotional loneliness.

In contrast boys and teenagers form much deeper friendships but once the adult burden begins, men focus on fulfilling their masculine role requiring them to absorb responsibilities for others and as Blaire said - suck it up. It is unmanly to complain about it. Only wimps and sissies do that....

Dealing with this burden, men do not do what women would naturally do - share their distress with others. Instead men internalize their feelings and stress - they see this as their masculine duty. As their original friends from their youth move on, they are not replaced with new deep friendships. In time they end up with none except their SO/children - assuming they still have good relationships.

The above is a generalization so I am not saying it applies to all men. But there have been studies done which show this process is very common and the root cause is the masculine role men believe they must fulfill or else be considered a failure.

85% of suicides are males. This is one of the main reasons for such a lopsided gender discrepancy.

[lavistaa62]

You cannot tell how isolated a man is just be counting how many friends he claims to have. It is an issue of quality over quantity. Men do not suffer from social loneliness, they suffer from emotional loneliness.



Those words really resonated with me- it's one reason while I'm going to start making a real effort to participate in CD/TG groups. Perhaps there is greater comfort there for people such as ourselves. Society segregates is by keeping like minded people apart. My though is that society will accept us to the the extent that we are aware, united and supportive friends of one another

[danielle.cd]

its the best of both worlds if your a female body builder cause then u look masculin but have a feminin attitude now if your a trans body builder its the same huh i guess i need to be a bodybuilder i would pass more that way lol, plus people wouldnt know wheter im a male or female

[Terrigirl]

Masculinity -- what is it. May not be able to define it, but I know it when I see it. And given the words written here about it, I see that they are worthy of being categorised under that which they are attempting to define.

To me, though, I see masculinity as kindness and gentleness toward to one I love. Being strong when she is weak. Being the one who withstand the fires of hell to protect her. Being one that evil must get through before they get to her.

And just who is her? She is first and foremost, my wife. She is the girl within me. She is love. She is knowledge.

And my masculinity, that strength associated with being male, is in no way diminished because I am wearing panties. Rather it is enhanced and delivered by the fullness of the person that I am.

Toni-Lynn

This is how I feel about my masculine side. There is so much about my man side that I embrace. I love being the protecter of the home. The rock on which my wife can rest on and rely on. I love being the Dad to my kids and teach them what a real man is supposed be like. That being said, I have always rejected and hated all of the negative manly stereotypes. Some men are just plain jerks, which give the rest of us a bad name.

[Kerigirl2009]

OK so us as CrossDressers seem to describe men in a negative way, by that I mean a PIG. Well I do CD and I am not a pig. When I am not dressed I still try to be as clean as possible. I guess I am trying to convert to the metro look. Although I think that look is outdated. but who I am I to say. I think masculinity in me shows by just being me and doing the typical male things that we do.

Such as go to football games, watch sports, eat a lot without considering where it will end up. (potato chips, Ice cream, cookies) I don't coordinate my shoes sith my outfit and my socks are all white(black if I dress business) So I guess I think it is what we do as an individual man that makes us the man that our SO (wife) love us so much.

I should buy her flowers to show her how much I love her,(this is what a man should do) :)

[Kate Simmons]

When all is said and done being nice and showing consideration are not limited to a specific gender Keri. My point for this thread is that a person cannot exist divided because to do so is counterproductive to a lot of different efforts. Women learned this a long time ago. You have to love yourself as well as others.:)

[Malori Cross]

I'm no anthropologist, but I think men and women have changed over the last century in the way they view their roles, so I'd have to say Manliness ain't what it used to be. Men--for the most part--seem to be willing to accept that men can be more feminine than their fathers/grandfathers were. The old Macho image is rapidly fading. Most men still aren't gender-blending, but they're at least willing to accept that it's happening in society. Only the most troglodyte fringe guys are still threatened by gay/TG men. Sadly, those guys usually have big mouths!

At any rate, I'm doing whatever I can to change the paradigm to move away from the Male/Female divide to one that's just more Human.

[lavistaa62]

I've been doing a lot of subconscious percolating on this and nurturing has been bubbling up. The more I consider things, things are feminine to the extent that they are nurturing (of oneself and others) and masculine to the extent they are not.

[NathalieX66]

I've yet to meet a woman that likes to chew Skoal and hangs out at the gun section Cabela's Sporting Goods, and who's idea of fashion is wearing mossy oak camouflage printed workboots. :devil:

[Jamie001]

Sounds like Sarah Palin to me. :)


I've yet to meet a woman that likes to chew Skoal and hangs out at the gun section Cabela's Sporting Goods, and who's idea of fashion is wearing mossy oak camouflage printed workboots. :devil: