Most common reason for failing to pass

[LauraCassidy]

Not that I care that much if I'm frequently read while I'm out en femme (btw I just love this site - sooooooo addictive!!!! And all the new Girlfriends I've made :hugs:) but what are the most commonly cited reasons (not to sound too academic about things!) for failing to pass. The reason I ask is while I was out en femme one night I could see a group of teenage girls coming towards me on the foot-path. They only started to notice "it's a man" when they were two feet away from me (And then they started giggling and laughing which I didn't mind of course!) I would have thought they would have noticed much sooner than that.

I have been crossdressing privately for the last 10 years but ever since I first (feel the fear and do it anyway) got brave and went out en femme I began to think about all the many and varied subtle differences between the male and female forms besides the obvious ones. And there are a lot of them.:doh:

Much larger hands
Much larger noses
Waist/hips
Legs/knees
Much much larger shoulders
and probably more I haven't realized yet...

If you are a 31 year old guy like me I think your best chance is trying to pass as a 50 year-old?

What you you think?

Laura

[sherri52]

The first reason is confidence. If you don't have it your lost from the start.
Another reason other than what you have mentioned is that we tend to dress younger than we are, Another is that we overdress for the occasion. You should always dress your age and dress appropriately for the occasion.

[AllieSF]

I think that I would much rather be 30 years old and starting this instead of the ancient age that I actually started. I would have been a knockout then. I like to look younger because I do look younger in both modes. However, once into the 50's, skin starts to sag, features get rougher, more senior blotches on your skin, everywhere, miscelaneous hairs growing out of all those cracks and crannies. You have it good girl, go for it now and enjoy your youthful features. 50 can wait 20 years!

[Kate Simmons]

Worrying about it too much I think. BTW, most of the folks I meet en femme think I'm 20 years younger than I am. I have to show them my license to prove I'm really __. :)

[Karen_Ski]

Laura you are correct in every way however Sherri hit it on the head. That confident air a woma exudes as she wends her way through life will carry you and all of us a lot further than any make-up or clothes!

[CATgirldo]

Yeah those 50 year old, old ladies who... wait... I'M 56!!! Actually, I pass very well, big hands, nose shoulders not withstanding. I always dress to blend in but that doesn't mean "Frumpy." I use my own longish hair and that seems to help and my one Achilles heel is my voice. It's passable but still needs work.
Anyway, it's doable even for us old bags.

CAT

[ReineD]

From this site: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090527121049.htm


As teenagers, dimorphism (systematic difference between sexes) increases in the nose, chin, mouth, jaw, eyes and general shape of faces," says Nicolas Dupuis-Roy, lead author of the study. " Yet we aren't conscious of how our brain recognizes those differences.

Investigations reveal that our brains recognize differences in subtle shading and luminance around the eyes and mouth.

[kimmy p]

The most common reason that I fail to pass is that I look like a guy dressed as a woman. :brokenheart::facepalm::Pullhair:

[linnea]

Confidence--and probably luminescence around the eyes.

[maddiegrl2k6]

I think the most common reason crossdressers don't pass is because unlike some women, we are EXCITED to dress up and do our makeup and stuff. We pick the perfect outfit and whatnot. Sometimes we don't really dress to blend in. I also think confidence is key. If you walk around like you own the place, no one will suspect a thing! It's when people walk around with their heads down and seem overly nervous when people get clocked! Just my two cents!

Maddie

[Katesback]

As far as I am concerned for anyone to use that word and even think about it means you WONT fit in!!

I am a TS. I live in the normal world. I have no other choice but to be who I am. Do some people figure me out? Sure. Do I care? HELL NO.

Perhaps that might be some food for thought.

Katie

[Barbara Jo]

One of the major reasons (besides a lack of confidence) is beard stubble that is hard to conceal withou a lot of makeup. This usually draws attention.

[Carole Cross]

As far as I am concerned for anyone to use that word and even think about it means you WONT fit in!!

I am a TS. I live in the normal world. I have no other choice but to be who I am. Do some people figure me out? Sure. Do I care? HELL NO.

Perhaps that might be some food for thought.

Katie

:iagree:

[jenna_woods]

I agree the most importaaant is confidence, and dress your age.

[Cindy_Act]

I think it takes a lot of work for a man to move like a woman. Men tend to look heavy while women have a float....well most do. And a woman's posture is very different too. These are things to work on. It takes practice not to slip back into the masculine slouch

[Karen__Starr]

Pretty much everything mentioned has truth in it. My main issue is voice since I do not use my female voice enough. I will say that age should have nothing to do with it if you have confidence and are dressed as the average female your age. Thinking about eyes and lips, I remember reading things about this on a plastic surgon web site and it made sense to me.

[Melinda G]

For most of us, there are times we will pass, and times when we won't.
But face it. When someone approaches you on a footpath at night, you are going to scrutinize them pretty close as they get closer. Had you been across the street, the kids might not have noticed.

[Katesback]

I hate to say this but the whole P word gets thrown out a lot here. I work for a living with transgender people. Most TS girls I meet are not exactly well assimilated. Going even further I cannot say I have ever met a CD that could ever pull off a presentation of a woman that is seamless! Are the words harsh? Sure. Is that suggesting you stop dressing? Nope. You simply need to accept who you are and do whatever it takes to be happy and damm the rest of the world.

Katie

[Terri Andrews]

I am 65 and would love to pass as A 50 year old .

[Terrihoney]

Confidence of who you are! Most women smile a bit when eye contact is made, men avoid eye contact. Practice walking movements. I found this awhile back, maybe on this forum.
www.biomotionlab.ca/Demos/BMLgender.html
Move the slider from male to female and see the difference.

Hugs, Terri

[docrobbysherry]

It's: "Going out dressed!":heehee:

If u don't do that, u won't ever, "NOT PASS"!:brolleyes:

[Rachel Morley]

Gosh that's a super hard thing to define. It's so subjective and it totally depends on the CDer. Like Cindy said:

Men tend to look heavy while women have a float....well most do.
Let me say this to you. When you are driving along and you see a person on the sidewalk walking in the same direction as you, with their back to you, you can almost immediately tell what gender they are cant you? How do you know what sex they are? ... it's because of so many things ... their body size, their clothing, their hair length, their general bodily movements, it's a combination of all of these things that happens in a micro second that tells you instinctively what gender that person is. Passing is the same .... just because you have long hair, boobs and you are wearing womens clothes doesn't mean a thing. It's all those sub-conscious signals that you are giving off that indicate male or female. Passing is almost a science! .... it's a very difficult thing to achieve and there is no easy way to quantify it. :2c:

[Byanca]

There is also a lot of females that don't pass very well as women. So it isn't easy.


Gosh that's a super hard thing to define. It's so subjective

Indeed.

[Sally2005]

It is not one thing (well it could be if you mess up one thing really badly), but it is the sum of the parts. Confidence is a major one, if you look like you are hiding something people will think you are up to something and they will watch you. Things like large hands are not an automatic giveaway, but you need to make them look good...remove hair, use lotion, polish etc...

[Hope]

I hate to say this but the whole P word gets thrown out a lot here. I work for a living with transgender people. Most TS girls I meet are not exactly well assimilated. Going even further I cannot say I have ever met a CD that could ever pull off a presentation of a woman that is seamless! Are the words harsh? Sure. Is that suggesting you stop dressing? Nope. You simply need to accept who you are and do whatever it takes to be happy and damm the rest of the world.

Katie

It really doesn't matter who you work for, or with, or what your experience is. The desire to pass is not abnormal, improper, wrong, or in need of being stifled. YOU don't feel the need or desire to pass. Good for you, and I will gladly stand up and support your desire to be, or at least comfort with being, a guy in a dress. But it is not shared by everyone, and that is OK too.

For some of us, who we are - happens to be women. For some of us, being perceived as men is pretty bloody unpleasant. That doesn't mean that we don't accept who we are, but it does mean that what we need to do to be happy (at least part of it) is to do the extra work required to pass.

It is troubling to me that someone who supposedly works with other TS girls doesn't already understand this.

[Andy66]

Movement is one of the things I notice most. Moving too much like a man is a clue, but acting "girlier" than a real girl is a dead giveaway. Be careful not to overact.

[kellycan27]

Kate

Passing is an attempt to do just that, Pass as a woman. You had FFS because although, according to you.. you looked good, people could still tell, and your wish was for people not to be able to tell... To be perfectly honest it seems to me that passing to others is "fitting in" with you. Semantics is all that is.
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that what you are saying is that it is more important to be able to (pass,fit in) for someone who is Transsexual, rather than someone who is a cross dresser, because as a transsexual you are more exposed? Like it's don't worry about passing, it's not important, but yet you don't seem to be practicing what you are preaching. Passsing or fitting in is not everything true,and not everyone or even most will be able to achieve it, but getting as close as possible sure does go a long way towards being comfortable out there.. just like fitting in is important to you. I think that for a lot of the cders it not so important to be thought of as a female, more to be able to do their thing without the fear of being read, or ridiculed, or laughed at. And there are some who actually would like to be able to pass as a woman. :2c:

Kelly

[tricia_uktv]

Its all about confidence and attitude but the big irony... As soon as I had made up in my mind that it didn't matter if I passed; I passed better. Work that one out.

[Ms Deidre]

Everything said here is true however one thing that cannot be emphasized enough is to dress appropriately for the situation. How many women do you see at the grocery store on Saturday morning in a short dressy skirt with 4" heels? I found out very early on that if one dresses appropriately that people are more accepting, except teen aged girls. One will almost always solicit giggles and whispers from ths group.

[Blaire]

Biggest thing to me is worrying too much about passing. If you paint a big enough target on yourself, someone's bound to hit it.

[missygatv]

Daylight kills me... for starters I have a pretty thick beard so I need a pretty significant amount of makeup. This sort of does it as far as daytime outings. I don't really care much if people stare, but if I can help it I avoid it.

At night, in a bar, proper makeup and hair, nice outfit... You will need a second look... I promise!

XOXO

[Kristy 56]

Maddie & Cindy I agree with both of you. I was getting a facial last week,and I asked the GG for an honest appraisal of what I needed to do to blend in. She told me, " stand up straight with no slouch,head up ,eyes looking forward,look at people instead of away and slow down the walk and take slow deliberate steps. " IMO few of us will actually pass,but we can blend in"

[Annie D]

You know, not that I still don't get nervous when I go out but I have gotten past the worry about passing. My nervousness is caused from the fear of being recognized, not having people recognize that I am a male. I take care to put on an appropriate amount of make up and dress to my age and wear what I should when I am going out but if someone pays enough attention, and it doesn't take too much, they will recognize my flaws.

If this was a multiple choice reason why I don't pass, my answer would be (d) "all of the above". I have let my hair grow out; long for a male but on the short side for a female, so I have stopped wearing wigs. Once I got past worrying about what other people thought I have enjoyed myself a lot more and I have even gone to going out in daylight! OMG.......LOL!

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that I will ever pass: 6'2", 220 lbs., size 12's and palm a basketball. That alone puts me in a pretty small percentage of the female population. I mind my own business, like any other female out there and I survive.

[Rogina B]

Make your most believable presentation,[mind,body,and movement] have a thick skin,and ENJOY YOURSELF! Also,leave any of your fetish wear in your closet unless you are headed to "the club". :D

[Karren H]

Got to be wearing a bra on the outside of your clothes!!! Or wearing 3 bras and 2 chic shapers.... That would do it for sure.

[Sophie_C]

Not that I care that much if I'm frequently read while I'm out en femme (btw I just love this site - sooooooo addictive!!!! And all the new Girlfriends I've made :hugs:) but what are the most commonly cited reasons (not to sound too academic about things!) for failing to pass. The reason I ask is while I was out en femme one night I could see a group of teenage girls coming towards me on the foot-path. They only started to notice "it's a man" when they were two feet away from me (And then they started giggling and laughing which I didn't mind of course!) I would have thought they would have noticed much sooner than that.

I have been crossdressing privately for the last 10 years but ever since I first (feel the fear and do it anyway) got brave and went out en femme I began to think about all the many and varied subtle differences between the male and female forms besides the obvious ones. And there are a lot of them.:doh:

Much larger hands
Much larger noses
Waist/hips
Legs/knees
Much much larger shoulders
and probably more I haven't realized yet...

If you are a 31 year old guy like me I think your best chance is trying to pass as a 50 year-old?

What you you think?

Laura

You're starting to get it. It's IMPOSSIBLE to pass without transitioning, and even with that, it may take some surgery to get over how masculized your body has become with 31 years of testosterone running though your veins.

If you really want to be happy and aren't TS, just learn to 'own' that you are a TV/CD (that's where the 'confidence' comes in) and accept that you will be seen as such. If you are confident in yourself, the 'problems' will be negated, and you'll get a far more positive reaction. But know that many, many people will never been seen as a woman without hormones AND surgery, period.

[adrienner99]

I think there could be a dozen reasons, depending on the individual, such as:

Facial hair
Broad shoulders
Bushy eyebrows
Bad skin
Bad choice of clothes or makeup. (We all go overboard too often.)
Phony or cheap looking wigs
General build and height
Lack of hips and bust
Confidence and voice

Consider this: I often see women in the grocery store wearing jeans, a t-shirt and sneakers. They often wear no makeup at all. Yet they are obviously female. Their hair, their build, their arched eyebrows and generally feminine complexion make them unmistakably female.

Bottom line is I don't thnk many will ever really pass. So what? I can't run a four-minute mile, but I still love to run...

[windycissy]

It's not impossible to pass without hormones and surgery, i'ts just extremely difficult if you're tall and built like a linebacker...confidence is key, but it won't matter much if your look screams man in a dress. If you're physically within the range, then all those little tricks with makeup, flattering clothes etc really pay off

[Dr.Susan]

You can tuck, bind, push, tape, use forms but a male face is a male face. Even with make up on it is hard to change. Especially the profile.

[msginaadoll]

I think the main reason I dont pass is that most people do not have visual impairments. But on the other hand it must be something in the Michigan water because people at least are respectful while I'm out. Cant ask for more than that.

[danielle.cd]

alot of what i see is going on with alot of crossdressers online in there vidieos is that there nor dressing apropriatly for the conditions,
look around u, how many women do u see doing laundry in highheels, or shopping in a prom dress or club wear, women enjoy being comfertable, jeans tshirts nice looking sweaters and such, iv seen alot of gg tall women that still were heals and they normally have bigger hands if there that tall and some have broader shoulders,

the other thing is the boots no female i know goes out in gogo boots or the super thick heals unless ther a very gothic person or a stripper

why so many crossdressers try to were this stuff and fit in is beyond me cause even the women comment on how they would never where that or shes such a ****,
not every moment in a womens life is a dress up moment
dont get me wrong theres a difference in looking good and looking fancy

anouther thing is if u walk like a man your gana come off as a butch female or obvious male in womens clothes just look at how butch females dress and youl see none of them wear a dress and talk like a dude even they know when there in a dress you dont act or do certian things (even though you hardly ever see a butch girl in a dress or dressed up )
alot of times i wonder if crossdressers are just wanting to be caught or there not informed on the proper style a women weres i know im not dressing up like im 50 just to say im female in public im not even thirty i want to look somewhat close to my age

[Katesback]

Good point. The other thing I see often with CDs is they might dress correctly for the occasion but wear clothing that is sooo old that it screams 70s or 80s.

If ya want to look good ya got to also look in style.

[Persephone]

I do have the advantages of size (5'7" tall/170 cm) and age (50+) going for me but I will bet dollars to donuts that we could be shopping in the same department at the same store and you wouldn't see anything other than a woman.

I see a lot of whining and complaining here and frankly, while I genuinely sympathize with the girls here that are just too big or too guy like, for the rest there is a message -- get off of your butt and work at it.

Adrianner99 posted a very interesting list of items, for example.

Facial hair
Broad shoulders
Bushy eyebrows
Bad skin
Bad choice of clothes or makeup. (We all go overboard too often.)
Phony or cheap looking wigs
General build and height
Lack of hips and bust
Confidence and voice

Except for build and height, every one of the others can be worked on. We live in an age of lasers that can minimize facial hair, lasers that can clear up many skin problems, plastic surgeons who can get rid of droopy eyelids, raise eyebrows, and restore hair, and medicines and shampoos that can help keep the head hair you've got.

There are voice training programs that you can download for free, a few more for nominal cost, and, if you have the dough, you can have a professional voice coach.

A couple of years of "homework" can teach you to move gracefully, to hold your head up, to smile, and to glide comfortably through "girl world."

So unless you're genuinely built like a linebacker (and, again, I can understand the terrible situation they find themselves in) the rest is up to you.

You want to whine? You want to make excuses? Or you want to put in the effort that is really requaired to "pass"?

[Erica2Sweet]

...I began to think about all the many and varied subtle differences between the male and female forms besides the obvious ones. And there are a lot of them.:doh:

Much larger hands
Much larger noses
Waist/hips
Legs/knees
Much much larger shoulders
and probably more I haven't realized yet...

If you are a 31 year old guy like me I think your best chance is trying to pass as a 50 year-old?

What you you think?

Laura

I'd say your observations regarding the physical differences in men and women as far as John Q. Public is concerned is right on. Many of the points you mentioned can be addressed by making smart clothing choices when one goes out in public. Picking certain styles of clothing can mask imperfect areas and give the illusion of a more feminine form. Just watch "What Not To Wear" to see how this works.

As its been mentioned if you want to pass or at least want to reduce your chances of drawing negative attention, then of course you'll want to dress your age, and carry yourself with as much confidence as you can muster.

I'm currently 35 years old, and I do dress my age when I go out, but there's no way I could ever pass as a 50 year old woman, nor would I ever try.

[Helen_Highwater]

If you go to You Tube and search for crossdresser public you’ll get a number of videos of CD’s out and about. Some not surprisingly are far more convincing than others but it’s little to do with dress or makeup. There’s a saying, “If you feel lucky, you’ll be lucky”. Well change that to, “If you feel womanly, you’ll be womanly”. If your wish is to pass then for me it’s about movement and posture and becoming the alter ego that is your feminine self.
Don’t please get me wrong, for those who have the inner strength to be out there and to not be concerned how others perceive them, where passing is not of paramount importance, I’m not throwing any stones. But for those to whom it does matter, in creating the illusion the devil is in the detail. So yes I suppose I echo the sentiments of many others in this thread, it’s being confident, having the poise and style and presence and a myriad of other things to carry it off. Anyone know where I can buy any of those things?

[msginaadoll]

The whole passing thing can drive ya crazy, cause as i have said before, you dont always know if you pass. Sometimes people give you a pass rather than you actually pass. I have been referred to many more times as maam or miss than sir. Does that mean I am passing or does that mean people are just treating me with respect or that I confuse them. I am dressed womanlike so they figure maybe I should be referred to as such. Friday night for example I was asked by a man if I minded if he used the urinal while I was out at a local club. I was at the mirror doing my lipstick. I said oh its no problem the bathroom is unisex. He looked at me for a hard second and then said, "Oh your a crossdresser, ... hot" Well I had passed for a second or two until I opened my mouth or he looked harder at me or.... I didnt try to disguise my voice or anything. Just a fun experience in the gender bending world.

[Sophie_C]

You can tuck, bind, push, tape, use forms but a male face is a male face. Even with make up on it is hard to change. Especially the profile.

EXACTLY.

Look, I will make it very simple for everyone. The human body develops in response to the hormones inside ourselves. People with estrogen and progesterone in typical GG levels will develop a lower hairline, softer jawline, very little of a brow ridge, a smaller nose shape, larger lips, eyes will be positioned slightly different, there will be more fat settled in different ways, there will be less musculature, the person will have a more soft, graceful neck (again, less musculature), a higher bodyfat percentile, with curves happening in a different way than men, broader hips, less body hair, smaller hands and feet, with less musculature all over, and probably a few more things I couldn't think of right now.

The best makeup, binding and clothing in the world can't fix ANY of that. Even if a CD/TV gets her weight down to a GG's range with all of her musculature gone, she'll be without any curves, and her face will look more masculine, since being more gaunt, it'll show off all of the effects of testosterone, being: a higher hairline, stronger and bolder jawline, a stronger brow ridge, larger nose, different eye shape / position, less fat, and of what is there, settled in male ways, from head to toe, another layer of musculature, a stronger neck, shoulders, rib cage, more narrow hips, greater body hair, larger hands and feet, etc, etc.

And, that's not even getting into scent, posture being impacted by physical composition and more.

THAT is why I say people can not be passable without transitioning. In order to truly 'pass' to someone who isn't legally blind, all of the masculine effects of testosterone have to be either prevented (by transitioning as a teenager) or undone by a combination of hormones and surgery later on. And, the longer you take, the more will need to be undone through surgical means. To know the physical difference between the male and female form is instinctive, shown by these countless subtle differences and people know when it's off.

Don't get me wrong - some people have good genetics which gives them a bit of a softer look, which they can work with, but they'll still have to do some work to be 'passable'.

And, remember girls, many people who you may think are seeing you as a woman simply know what's up. They are just being good people and respecting our way of life.

Know that I am not meaning to be at all disrespectful to anyone and saying anyone looks terrible. A CD/TV can be stunning and with some rare genetics can even come close to being seen as a bio woman. But, human instinct will have you 'read' instantly and people do know.

You CAN be a gorgeous, very, very feminine crossdresser that all sorts of people adore. So, just 'own' it and not be the slightest bit ashamed of yourself! Respecting yourself brings about the respect of others, and if you always have in the back of your mind "hmm... do I or don't I pass?" it's going to make people feel less comfortable around you. So, just be yourself, and be proud. And, if you do want to transition since you know that is your true self, know that you can pass, with enough time and effort. :)

[Emme]

So you think 50 is old......Just you wait...till you are 49.....LOL Some of the best looking women on this site are over 60. All in fun....but it is so true!

[Carly D.]

The first reason is confidence. If you don't have it your lost from the start.
Another reason other than what you have mentioned is that we tend to dress younger than we are, Another is that we overdress for the occasion. You should always dress your age and dress appropriately for the occasion.

I agree, confidence plays a major role.. Looking ****ty wouldn't help.. I went out dressed once and was in a somewhat public place and about five other people were there and that was five more than have ever seen me before that evening.. scarred?? TO DEATH but really not that much, I try to control that situation as much as I can..

[Samantha_Smile]

Bad CDs can be seen daily on the streets of Manchester.
Trampy makeup is the number one reason.
That, or they havent plucked their eyebrows :doh:
Walking with palms facing backwards, elbows out would make even nigella lawson look butch too, so avoid this.

And stay away from tarty skirts and tops. Heels are fine, just walk right in them, dress sexy but classy...

And get a pretty corset under your clothes.

[vetobob9]

I was told at younger age that I walked like a girl by a lot of people. So i've been conscience about how I walk ever since. I've consciously had to make an effort to walk the way my gender walks.

The main thing I would have to deal with, if I tried going out enfemme, is the beard stubble. Which is why I don't.
Though, when I was in the army, I was told that someone found an internet picture of me in a dress. Not possible of course since I never wore one around other people.

Even when dressed as my own gender, I've been embarrassed a couple of times when one of my nephews kept referring to me as a she because I used to be really thin.

I think if I went out (enfemme or en femme?) I would probably have no problem passing. Only GG's would probably be able to tell, and a few genetic guys who would then call it to the attention of their lady friends for some odd reason.

[NoraTV]

There are really two questions here:

1. Do you want to express who you really are?

2. Or do you want to pass?

Both of these questions are honest. I dress to express who I really am. I can pass (although I have actually been mistaken for a WNBA player) although, to be truthful, I am amazed (or maybe people are just being polite).

I think that the most important thing is to present yourself with confidence and poise. Those giggling girls that Laura mentioned were too stupid to realize what a great compliment that Laura was giving them by the way that she presented herself to the world. They would probably also giggle at somebody wearing "last year's" lipstick color.

Hang in there, ladies,

[Lorileah]

In my case the main reason I don't pass?...I don't try very hard.

6'3" in heels shoulders like a cornerback,no butt, no hips, lotta waist. Yet....I pass better than most the "girls" in this town

[kellycan27]

There are really two questions here:

1. Do you want to express who you really are?

2. Or do you want to pass?

Both of these questions are honest. I dress to express who I really am. I can pass (although I have actually been mistaken for a WNBA player) although, to be truthful, I am amazed (or maybe people are just being polite).

I think that the most important thing is to present yourself with confidence and poise. Those giggling girls that Laura mentioned were too stupid to realize what a great compliment that Laura was giving them by the way that she presented herself to the world. They would probably also giggle at somebody wearing "last year's" lipstick color.

Hang in there, ladies,

Actually the OP wasn't about the importance of passing or not, it was in regards to that which prevents passing.

[Sarah Doepner]

I have the big hands, I'm too tall with broad shoulders, I've a brow ridge most Neanderthals would respect and a pretty strong chin. My voice needs work, I need to lose weight and I move more like a great ape than a girl. On top of that I'm not even attractive as a man. I don't pass and even with the best makeup, hair, age and situationally appropriate selection of clothing, a nice walk and a smile, I will be seen for what I am, not what I'm attempting to look like.

However, if I do all these things sometimes I can "pass by" before they realize what they have seen. I just need puzzled looks in front of me and the giggles behind me. We have to make a choice and pick an achievable goal if we want to go out in public dressed en femme. If I decided I was going to pass or not be satisfied with the experience, I would never be happy out of the house. I do the best I can and pick a goal that I can achieve and maybe I can raise the bar just a little with each experience. Someday maybe I'll have blank stares in front of me and the puzzled looks behind me. That would work.

[Annie D]

What exactly would change? I would still be the same height, have the same hands and feet and unless I had facial plastic surgery, I would look the same. I probably would be taking hormones and my skin and hair would become more feminine. The difference, in my mind, would be "in my mind". Breasts and new plumbing would make me physically feminine and then I wouldn't have to get past feeling whether I passed or not because if I wanted to do the normal things that every other human does; work, shop, meet people, etc., I would just do it and not care. My presentation as a women would be exactly the same as my female presentation as a crossdresser.

Do whatever you can to make your appearance more feminine but in order to "pass" you need to accept yourself.

[nikkijo]

You can tuck, bind, push, tape, use forms but a male face is a male face. Even with make up on it is hard to change. Especially the profile.
then someone needs more practice with hair and make up...


In my case the main reason I don't pass?...I don't try very hard.

6'3" in heels shoulders like a cornerback,no butt, no hips, lotta waist. Yet....I pass better than most the "girls" in this town


this time of year everyone in colorado looks like a puffball anyway... so how could you not pass....lol

[Dr.Susan]

then someone needs more practice with hair and make up...

Even with perfect make-up you can't change the physical traits of a man's head and as I said before the profile is usually a dead giveaway. Why do you think there are so few profile pictures in the photography section?

[Christina Horton]

Confidence , as most has said is key. The way I look at it is this.

I can't dance.... What does that have to do with "Being a women" . I have been told to , when I dance ( in drab or dressed ) is to let the music flow through you and let " it " move you.

Well I see going out as a women as letting the ( women ) inside me out and let her flow through me and move me. When I am home and no one is there I just let my girly side just be free ( I live alone :( ) so aside from not sitting down to pee I am fem all the time. My hands the way I walk my voice does it to.

Passing. Yes I know some people think it's a bad word. I think it's a fine word and I also think you all should just let your male selfs go and FEEL the women inside you and give yourself to her.

When you can do that your passing will be no concern and you will just have fun being who you are inside. Once you do that you will look more like a girl then your more male features will allow you to.

Of course that's just my :2c: worth. It may not work for you but does for me.

You see I AM one with wide shoulders , plus side at 260 at 5'10. But for me I think being plus size helps cuz it rounds of my fetures and "fems" them down a little I think. I don't know cuz I have been big most of my adult life so I don't know.

I hope this helped you.

[Mandy Burgundy]

I know I may never pass, cause of my ridiculously chiseled male model appearance (insert Zoolander reference here lol):tongueout, (plus I have voice like Issac Hayes), but that doesn't stop the admirers from approaching me, sometimes flirting, which makes me feel good about myself. Its all about presenting yourself the best you can.

[Super Amanda]

Since most people here are answering like the OP is asking "What doe's it take to pass?" I shall attempt to ACTUALLY answer the question, which is : "Most common reason for failing to pass"


From my own experience, I think bad wigs are most likely the number one give away. If someone has a really cheap looking Halloween wig on, it will be obvious from a mile away.

A very close number two is the old beard shadow, my personal worst enemy.

HOWEVER...Just one of these things alone wont cause failure, IMO, but rather a combination of all of the cardinal sins of crossdressing, like wayyyy too much makeup in loud colors, inappropriate attire for the situation, bad wig and manly gestures.

I'm six foot tall, wear women's size 12(shoes, and rings!) and weigh 240 lbs...I can go unnoticed in busy super markets and most public situations(so far!). I don't like to say I "pass" when I go unnoticed, because something about the word feels wrong...like I have to "pass" some test....My test was being true to myself, which we are far better at than most "normal" folks.

[frisbee_girl]

I would imagine for me, if I had perfect hair, make-up, outfit, etc... I think my Adam's Apple would give it away. If I wore a turtle neck or something else that would cover that up, I think my hand might give it away. Although I've noticed there are a lot of women with man hands. I could probably pass for an elite female endurance athlete. They can be pretty boyish in appearance and their skin can be a bit leathery.

As an aside, I've spent the last week or so imagining all the women I see are actually dressed en femme. It's amazing how many women wouldn't pass. :)

[Genifer Teal]

We can make a very long list of ways men look different than woman and most of them can't be changed with out tremendous effort. That is no reason to overlook what we can do. With the right look you can overcome many of those issues and look a great deal better than you might imagine.

It has been said over and over to dress appropriately. This means both for your age and where you will be presenting yourself. Also consider your age when choosing a wig, and learn how to style it or have it professional done - for those special occasions. Hair is a very noticeable feature, and while we may have to wear one, it doesn't have to look like one or like it just came out of a box. Tone down your makeup unless you are going for a night on the town. Consider a makeover. You may learn some useful tips. Learn a natural feminine walk - not some over exaggerated runway walk. Many times I can tell a male walk from a distance, long before I can see the persons face. Some are more noticeable than others. CD events are a great place to observe this. Take note of other feminine mannerisms and copy them. Above all, be confident in who you are.

I could continue but I think you get the idea. Don't fret the details until you have conquered the basics. How people perceive you is a balance between what your eyes see and what your brain thinks it sees. Think of it like an optical illusion, you can trick the brain to make it see what you want. Improve upon what you have before worrying about the major changes.

Gen

[Katesback]

I had a revalation. I now know why VERY few CDs P__S. It is because they are men wearing dresses. Sometimes dressed like ****s, sometimes dressed in clothing soo out of place it is a red flag. Sometimes they are wearing clothing that was popular 20 years ago. Sometimes they walk like a guy, sometimes they just dont even carry themselves like a girl. Finally last but not least. VERY and I Mean VERY few can even pull off a voice that works not to mention the idea of carring on a conversation that is correct (even if the voice did work).

Whats the point? Well the point is and always has been that for 99% of ya your not going ever be able to put forth a seamless presentation. For that matter thats even very difficult for a TS girl. It takes SOOOOOOO much effort and when you are presenting a female once a month or something like that its never going to work!!!

Now on the other hand if you are just comfortable being you, then do whatever it takes to be happy and damm the rest of the world.

I have lived through those days of looking like a guy in a dress and now life is different. I did not die, nobody beat me up, I am still here. It can be done!!!

Katie

[ReineD]

Kate, this was your intro to the forum back in November:

Hi there everyone. My name is Katie and I am new to the site. I work in HIV prevention that targets transgender people in South Florida. I also happen to be post opp TS. At this point I should say that I am really easy going and as the manager of Tri ESS puts it "Katie is the only TS that is invited to the meetings since she does not act like TS girls towards CD's".

So tell me ... how does a TS girl act towards CDs? Surely not with derision like this:

I now know why VERY few CDs P__S. It is because they are men wearing dresses. Sometimes dressed like ****s, sometimes dressed in clothing soo out of place it is a red flag. Sometimes they are wearing clothing that was popular 20 years ago. Sometimes they walk like a guy, sometimes they just dont even carry themselves like a girl.

You do know this is a support site, don't you? There are better ways to help those TGs who are here to learn than by regurgitating your anger, arrogance, and superiority all over them. And you do know there are a good many CDs here who have perfectly good taste in clothing and who carry themselves well? :Angry3:

[crusadergirl]

Theres no way to dress your age b/c how are you going to know what clothes you have to wear. Ok now to the part where you fail to pass, its because your walking to slow. .
Other then that to pass you must go out shopping with teenage girls so they can pick your clothes , but thats only if your under 35. Confidence is key but not in passing.

[Byanca]

I pass well enough when out walking, if I dress normal. Super short skirt will always draw eyes. Below the knee and the attention drops markedly.

Yesterday only one guy followed me with his eyes, and sat down to keep an eye me in the library. Kinda regretted I didn't take the heels though, when that happened ::battingeyelashes:

Not one person acted weird all the way there, it was only street lightning.

[noeleena]

Hi..
For me as a person .with the mix of both andro .

Has been . To be accepted . at 62 .
i spos i could have my make up done so well that many people would not reconise me . My clothes are quite normal for a woman . shoes just flats
my walk is as a woman . & voice its good enough . my skin is very good . olive . & soft . if i use the word pass in many ways its good
.
Heres the twist many women here in n z are just that women .yet i have women friends who have male features are hairy low voices . walk a bit like males . no one seems to be bothered . of cause they have hormonal details going on . yet they accept me for who i am .
I know i v said this before . my profile has gone before me . so many people know who i am. what i did & how i got to where i am now . the point for me is not wether i can or not pass . its about being true up front & not trying to hide behind some thing you are not . or something i m not .

I would not say to some one else what they should do . because we are all different .
For me i am accepted as a woman . & i dont have to be any thing else . i dont have to prove i m a woman . i m just me . there are things about this kid . that can not be changed . & some of those details hurt . so i have accepted those . & i live with those .

i dont wish to be younger or to have been born a girl because thats not me .
I m happy with who i am . yes its hard not to have my womb . not to be able to have my child . yet in all i have gone throgh over my life i can say i have both sides of knowing what its like being male. not a complete one .. & being able to be a woman . yes not a complete one .

My main detail is i accept my self for who i am . & to be accepted as well.

A ? comes up to me with this & that is are you accepted in the other roll other than the birth you were born in . The ? is of cause . are you happy with that . or not as that can determine how you accept your self . as you dress as a female or as a woman . how you act . ( not the right word . ) any way . or try to be a woman . or like one .

I could go to a girls school & learn how. go to make up class s. & do fashion . & learn it all even act it . yet for me there would be some thing missing . it would not be the real who i am .
So i may not pass. as to what we are talking about . yet i do in other ways & that is in my attrubutes attatude. manner . & being just me . thats why i m accepted with in many womens groups & funny as it is by many men .
so yes i can really say ... I do pass...

...noeleena...

[Katesback]

Ummmmmm Renea:

I am not angry, I am not superior to anyone, I have never claimed to be better than anyone and I am surprised at how you can even come to that conclusion.

Yes it is a support group, yes it is supposed to be helpful, yes I am VERY realistic, yes sometimes the truth is far away from dreamland, YES I have and continue to be VERY supportive of all trans people by encouraging them to be whever they are regardless of what the world thinks.

I have done it myself! I am lived through the process, I can now speak because I LIVED it. Even to this day some people can figure me out! Yes thats correct, do I go crawl in a hole? Nope, I walk with confidence and live my life however I wish.

As I said my support comes from telling peple to be who they are. That my dear is by far the best support and encouragement that anyone could ever offer.

KAtie

[Erica2Sweet]

...Funally last but sureley not least. VERY and I Mean VERY can even pull off a voice that works not to mention the idea of carring on a conversation that is correct (even if the voice did work)...

I'm curious. What is a correct conversation as opposed to an incorrect one?

..and what does funally mean? Do you mean its funny to you when you encounter a CD that is having trouble achieving a feminine voice?

[bobbiepoly]

scared to death evertime I go out, but feels better after a while and you
get more confident, how great is it to here how can i help you maam

[victoriamwilliams1]

For me I had that happen to me in the early years of going out and I was in my car when they notice me as a guy. So what I did was hit the drawing board and study women and I did find that what we think about women is not 100% accurate:

1. Big hands : I have seen GG's with big hands it is also based on body size and those women (some in my family) tend to keep longer nails to deflect from hand size.

2. Hairy arms: I have been seeing women with hairy arms and even chest lately and they are GG's.

3. All women sway hips: This is not as common as we think. I have seen women who do not do that and I have seen men who do!

4. All women have hips: Not true thats why the have hip pads! not only CD/TG's use them GG women use them as well.

5. Legs shapes are based on genetics as well there are men who have "women" legs and some women who do not have shape.

6. I have seen women with broad shoulders as well and again it is the genetics of a person that determines body types.

7. I am too tall: A girl in the U.S. is over 7ft tall and plays high school basketball.

I will say that some of us as well as genetic women will dress below age and at times that draws attention for people to do close inspection. I will say from personal experience that I was at a store and the SA had a boys name and had some very masculine features with nice long hair and at first I thought she was a TG and later found out she was all GG! What I am saying is that is is how you carry yourself as well and we tend to try to fit in as the perfect woman instead of being ourselves. Also your comfort level will help you in public and to achieve that you must go out often to build that comfort. I suggest starting at smaller stores that do not have allot of traffic and that is far away from home and for me I would go 50-60 miles away from home and that helped me.

8. My voice it too low! So is Joyce Meyers:)

[ReineD]

Yes it is a support group, yes it is supposed to be helpful, yes I am VERY realistic, yes sometimes the truth is far away from dreamland, YES I have and continue to be VERY supportive of all trans people by encouraging them to be whever they are regardless of what the world thinks.

OK, then I misread your post. It just seemed so condescending.

One of the issues, and I do NOT understand this well so please bear with me, is the different goals that TGs have and this is further complicated by where they are along the gender continuum (if there is such a thing).

I'm not sure if you agree with this or not, but there is a standard joke floating around about the difference between a TS and a CD being several years. Yes, some CDs are latent TSs, but there are lots of CDs who identify as men who are also feminine, or they identify as bi-gendered, and they have no wish to take hormones nor do they wish to transition. There are some CDs who want to pass, and others for whom it is not a priority. They are quite happy being seen as a transperson, as long as they are respected. There are some CDs who look at the CDing as a fun hobby and who are OK with just floating around TG safe areas, while for others it is deeper. Most CDs just want to be taken seriously and of course they want to be safe. Blending in is also a way to minimize danger by staying outside of the transphobics' radars. There are even some (although rarer) CDs who just want to wear skirts and they are happy identifying as a guy in a dress.

I'm not sure what the situation is among TSs. I know that the goal for some is to go stealth, but I don't know whether this is desired in order to live peacefully in a biased society, or if going stealth fulfills the very deep need to finally have a body that matches the gender. It is either both, or it probably depends on the TS? Yet I know others for whom being taken consistently as a GG will not happen because of their physiognomy and the age at which they transitioned, and they have come to terms with not going stealth. They've developed a tough skin, they've forged on with their lives, and they don't care what others think.

So you see there is a vast array of motives and needs and a very wide spectrum in terms of the desired presentation. Not everyone wants to wear the latest fashion, and lots of others just want to wear mini-skirts, fishnets, and stilettos.

[Erica2Sweet]

...One of the issues, and I do NOT understand this well so please bear with me, is the different goals that TGs have and this is further complicated by where they are along the gender continuum (if there is such a thing)...

Personally I think you understand it very well based on your post. We all are individuals with different backgrounds and life experiences, therefore we do have different goals and motivations regarding what we do in life. Each of us has unique wants and desires that depend on a great many things including how we were raised, our religion, our morals and values, what we experienced in life so far, what we yearn to experience, and who we surround ourselves with. Why we do what we do, and where we are headed in life is not dictated by one specific nuance of our personality. Humans are more complicated than that.

What I'm saying is that to lump a bunch of folks together because they share a common interest or quirk and try to pin a common goal on us is a wasted effort.

[lissetta]

When you say ive got it going on just carry that attitude thru the rest of the night/day thats what i * try to do * there are those days!

[kellycan27]

I'm not sure what the situation is among TSs. I know that the goal for some is to go stealth, but I don't know whether this is desired in order to live peacefully in a biased society, or if going stealth fulfills the very deep need to finally have a body that matches the gender.either both, or it probably depends on the TS?.

Reine

You nailed it for me, though I am not of the opinion that society is biased to the point of distraction for me personally. (Not something I worry about) More, that it isn't anybody's business but my own ( and my SO's). I don't have an issue with people finding out, but I am not going to hang a sign around my neck, or march up and down the block waving a flag. :hugs:

Kel

[Mirani]

I always "pass" when no one is looking.
For the majority of the time most people are just getting on with their lives and don't look.
I spend 24/7 en femme. I don't know the difference between "passing" and people not reacting.
I am sure many people I interact with realise I am "different". However who knows what is going on in their minds?
Forgive the labels, but I have been told that quite a few people believe I am pre or post op TS so relate to me as a woman.
Brighton is quite cosmopolitan and someone like me is not VERY unusual.
Elsewhere, I feel I am treated as I present - I just don't know or care what they are thinking.
Occasionally I have been "congratulated" for being brave - I guess I didn't "pass" on those occasions. :)
My SO is a great coach. If I slip up, she reminds me "walk from the hips"; "break a piece off the sandwich, dont take a bite"; "try not to stand so solidly" (I know what she means); "don't pick your nose at the traffic lights" (our little joke :)), and finally "you need a shave sweetheart!"
A coach (or wing gal) is worth so much!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

OK, then I misread your post. It just seemed so condescending.

One of the issues, and I do NOT understand this well so please bear with me, is the different goals that TGs have and this is further complicated by where they are along the gender continuum (if there is such a thing).

I'm not sure if you agree with this or not, but there is a standard joke floating around about the difference between a TS and a CD being several years. Yes, some CDs are latent TSs, but there are lots of CDs who identify as men who are also feminine, or they identify as bi-gendered, and they have no wish to take hormones nor do they wish to transition. There are some CDs who want to pass, and others for whom it is not a priority. They are quite happy being seen as a transperson, as long as they are respected. There are some CDs who look at the CDing as a fun hobby and who are OK with just floating around TG safe areas, while for others it is deeper. Most CDs just want to be taken seriously and of course they want to be safe. Blending in is also a way to minimize danger by staying outside of the transphobics' radars. There are even some (although rarer) CDs who just want to wear skirts and they are happy identifying as a guy in a dress.

I'm not sure what the situation is among TSs. I know that the goal for some is to go stealth, but I don't know whether this is desired in order to live peacefully in a biased society, or if going stealth fulfills the very deep need to finally have a body that matches the gender. It is either both, or it probably depends on the TS? Yet I know others for whom being taken consistently as a GG will not happen because of their physiognomy and the age at which they transitioned, and they have come to terms with not going stealth. They've developed a tough skin, they've forged on with their lives, and they don't care what others think.

So you see there is a vast array of motives and needs and a very wide spectrum in terms of the desired presentation. Not everyone wants to wear the latest fashion, and lots of others just want to wear mini-skirts, fishnets, and stilettos.

Hi Reine.

I am one of those cliches...i spent time with men that crossdress and I knew I was different...just like I know I'm different from men that don't crossdress.

As a full timer, I think it might be difficult for a non fulltimer to feel how important "passing" is to me...i can't take it off, if i don't pass, then I suffer, and i can't go home and say F-it, that sucked, and go back to being a guy.

I have a hard time putting it behind me...just like any woman that was mistaken for a guy would...its not just a "fail" if i'm read as a man...it feels like a knife in my heart...\

I dont really have the stealth option...so I try to be as womanly as possible and my realistic goal is to make sure that when I am assumed to be a genetic male, that my presentation makes it impossible to think of me as male, even if you know I'm trans......its the best i can do...

and I beleive that's why some TS women get frustrated at the part of the CD group that is flamboyant and extreme in their presentation...it is totally and completely OK to want to be seen, and we all should be supported for who we are...but it does impact me directly..like it or not, i don't think 5 inch stilettos and mini skirts are gonna go over well on the Atlantic City boardwalk
If thats what you like then I say more power to you and go for it, but pls don't get down on me when I say that it reflects on me when I don't pass.
If I don't pass, I still want the chance to be accepted as a woman..and if you are flaunting your dual nature, then you probably don't care.
and its why some TS folk leave their CD friends behind (which is a shame)

BTW
If its so incredibly important to you to "pass" , you may need to ask yourself why that is....:straightface:


and that goes to OP's question...if you spend your life as a male, and then emulate your female side, its just so hard for most of us to go back and forth...practice makes perfect...and being read as a genetic female is a sum of the parts type of thing...this is especially true for the voice...its pretty amazing how different m and f voices can be...and I have friends that claim to have passable voices and I am just happy for them that they beleive that!!:heehee:

all the best
kate