gay or cd

[charlen]

My wife and I were having a discussion about cd and she brought up that she thought cross dressing would be worse than being gay. That being gay was more acceptable in public. Sure gay people have their problems but they are not openly laughed at ...but let a man dress as a woman and go out in public, just to walk down the street or go to a restaurant,minding your own business.....what do you think would happen? we have been married for over 20 years and I know how difficult it is.....if my husband had a choice he would not want to be a cross dresser. It is a difficult way to live ..wanting to dress one way but not feeling comfortable doing it,worried that your friends will find out. From my point of view it is a terrible way to live but what choice do you have? Sorry for getting carried away.....does anyone have an opinion about the gay verses cd life style? this is from my best friend and wife.:devil:

[joyce483]

it sounds like a double wammy for me being a CDer and being Bi!

[RachelZ]

Yup we get the short end of the stick as far as acceptance goes. But hey that's life. At least we're still very proud.

[Jacquie]

I think there is some truth to what your wife is saying however depending on your current life style I believe there is still a stigma to being gay or bi. I am totally and completely in the closet with both my crossdressing and bisexuality and intend to keep it that way for exactly those reasons.

[Jason+]

I guess for me what I hope is that if we can learn to accept two men or women together and hopefully allow them to have a family they love just like any other couple that maybe that tolerance will spill over into being able to accept someone like me who is stuck in the middle of what male or female is.

[Barbara Dugan]

I happen to be both and both have some challenges at times but is fun when you can put the two together at the same time:heehee:

[Marissa]

Charlen,

I was trying to see if i could tell if that was your views or your wifes or what? part sounded like you..other parts sounded like your wife.. anyway..

It is a hard life for most.. gay is becoming so acceptable or maybe folks will walk away without making it an issue...

my home life has improved recently with coming out to one daughter.. but she doesn't want to see it.. at that time she said that..

my other daughter recently moved in and she is bi so more open to things so she is okay with it to the extent that she takes some of my pics now and helps with makeup..

now comes the tough part.. my ex.. one third of our break up was me being open with her about wanting to wear some women's attire..mostly panty hose and undies.. and makeup.. she even gave me some of her stuff.. we were living in different cities due to work. Later, i found out how it bothered her..

just recently we have talked about it and she is more understandable.. see how that goes.. but my point is that being a cd is tough.. and you are right.. being gay is okay..being cd is (hmmmm..was looking for a word that rhymes.lol).

someday we will fall into the same views as gay.. someday..

Hugs and kisses,

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Hi, fwiw, I have a brother who's gay, he and his partner of many years and I, as well as friends of their's, have often talked about this topic and we all agree that it's much easier these days to be accepted by society in general as openly gay (or lesbian) than it is to be accepted as TG/CD. In fact he doesn't get my being TG at all, though he accepts it. To top it off, I've had some of his gay friends tell me that they think being CD is just plain weird. Go figure. The closest they can get to wrapping their heads around it is by relating it to female impersonator entertainers. I've tried to explain to them that it's just not the same thing.

Looking at how long it's taken gays to be generally accepted in our society(though it's far from universal), then perhaps sometime in the next few decades we will be allowed to express ourselves as well. Not holding my breath, though.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[NathalieX66]

The problem with being a hetero cd is it already makes you suspect.
When you are involved with a partner that knows little about cd'ing, it makes your partner question what they've gotten into....unless this is something they've known beforehand.

The problem from the standpoint of the significant other is trying to determine how far will you take it? That's where she, starts to re-evaluate whether being in the relationship is worth it.

[Marissa]

The problem with being a hetero cd is it already makes you suspect.
When you are involved with a partner that knows little about cd'ing, it makes your partner question what they've gotten into....unless this is something they've known beforehand.

The problem from the standpoint of the significant other is trying to determine how far will you take it? That's where she, starts to re-evaluate whether being in the relationship is worth it.


Yes I agree for the most part.. my ex asked me that last night..she is like "you sound like you want more.. how far do you want to go???" i'm trying to ensure her that i love women.. and yes may be bi but not sure to that extent.. been there done that.. so its back in the mind but not sure if i would act on it.

[docrobbysherry]

Altho I have NOT chosen to be a CD, because I'm straight, I hide out in the closet!:sad:

If I was gay/bi, I would HAVE to come out to find CD partners!:eek:

If I had a choice, I believe I would PREFER to be a bi CD!:brolleyes:

[Terrihoney]

This is my GF biggest worry, that after all this time she's known me (ten years) I might want to play on the other team. Like, if two of us CDers are having a get together. Would my male side still notice the cute woman I'm with and want to 'be' with her while knowing she's really a man? Either way, that still would be cheating on her. And the answer is no anyway.

Hugs, Terri

[Crysten]

Accepted - or not accepted? I truely think it's all in our personal perception of the issue. I don't go out because that's the deal I made with my wife, and for my kids sake. Without those limitations, who, EXACTLY, would I try to be accepted by? People on the street? 99% don't care. Store employees? Again, 99% don't care. People in bars?? Well you should be smart enough to go into places that are LGBT friendly.

So, really, it boils down to the 1% of A-holes who are going to be A-holes anyhow. Given the number of people at any particular place, that may amount to 1 or maybe 2 people who have an "issue". Notice, it's THEM that have the issue. Not you.

The trick is wrapping your own head around these facts, and making them a reality in your own life. I know, this is big talk for not personally venturing out, but hey, I gotta do what I gotta do. Family comes first.

[Lainie]

...but let a man dress as a woman and go out in public, just to walk down the street or go to a restaurant,minding your own business.....what do you think would happen?

I've done this many times in handlebar moustache, no makeup, but otherwise fully en femme--skirt or dress, heels, hose; in The Hague, Boston, Houston, Austin. What do you think happened?

Nothing. I enjoyed dinner, the wait staff were very pleasant and cheerful--maybe a little more cheerful than when I do this in drab. Nobody pays much attention. Very rarely some one will compliment my clothes or necklace. Once the cashier in a restaurant commented on my unusual wallet (canvas, covered with designs that look like '30s company logos) while I was wearing a midi skirt & matching shawl, stretchy sweater over obvious breasts, & high-heeled boots. ...and the handlebar that many people remark on when I am in drab.

Admittedly, I don't do this close to home. I'm keeping secrets from my wife because she asks to stay in denial. So I'm pretty conflicted, but the general public is very cool with the whole affair.

[Samantha B L]

There's nothing the matter with being either gay or CD. The stigma is about the same for either one. Many people see either one as "queer".

[KimberlyJo]

I've done this many times in handlebar moustache, no makeup, but otherwise fully en femme--skirt or dress, heels, hose; in The Hague, Boston, Houston, Austin. What do you think happened?


Do this and go to Walmart and you will most likely end up on this site. (http://www.peopleofwalmart.com)

[carolinoakland]

I've said the same about being trans. The first question I get is "are you gay?" . And I wish it was that easy. Gay is about who you choose to be with, but at least you are still a gay MAN, or gay WOMAN. And you can be a lesbian transwoman, and gay transman. Trans is about who I AM.

[Sophie_C]

My wife and I were having a discussion about cd and she brought up that she thought cross dressing would be worse than being gay. That being gay was more acceptable in public. Sure gay people have their problems but they are not openly laughed at ...but let a man dress as a woman and go out in public, just to walk down the street or go to a restaurant,minding your own business.....what do you think would happen? we have been married for over 20 years and I know how difficult it is.....if my husband had a choice he would not want to be a cross dresser. It is a difficult way to live ..wanting to dress one way but not feeling comfortable doing it,worried that your friends will find out. From my point of view it is a terrible way to live but what choice do you have? Sorry for getting carried away.....does anyone have an opinion about the gay verses cd life style? this is from my best friend and wife.:devil:

I agree with your wife 1000%. Gays are on TV, in movies, and every at least knows a friend of a friend who is. Crossdressing is far more rare and less accepted as a consequence..

[Karren H]

People who judge other peoples lifestlyes as "worse" than theirs are idiots and bigots and are "worse" whan the lowest scum on this planet... In my humble opinion. Omg. I just judges someone else... Move over scum.. I'm coming down for a visit!! Hahaha.

[jenna_woods]

yes I think that every one thinks that cd's are all gay and its not true

[linnea]

Very funny, Karren: to speak out about the detestable practice of others who are judgmental, we have to be judgmental--lol! What a world!
The problem of being judged by others will probably never go away because it is so wide-spread and so widely focused. People judge others on all sorts of grounds: ethical, moral, legal, etc.
Unfortunately, in this culture (USA), making judgments about sexual and gender-related behavior seems carry a particularly broad license. And even more unfortunately, the judgments are too often baseless or narrowly based.
It is interesting that gays might find more acceptance and less judgment in our culture today than cross-dressers or those who are transgendered. That may be in large part because gays are not usually construed to be ones who want to be or become the opposite gender but instead are attracted to their same gender.
Many observers find MtoF changes as particularly disturbing because they suggest inadequacy, and our social traditions have (for far too long) suggested that male-ness connects with power, achievement, and fulfillment. For a man to be or want to become a woman is for many observers a step toward inadequacy.
This is a product of a stultifying socio-cultural construction, but it is one reason that CDs/transgenders may receive more derision and ridicule than gays.

[Annie D]

When you see another male walking around, you really don't know what their sexual preference is, even if you sit down a chat with them. To tell the truth, furthermore, I don't really care! Back to my response to this thread, because humans are so visual, when we see a man in women's clothing, we immediately can "read" that something ain't right. Gay or straight, the clothing we wear gives people around us a "first impression" and that takes a great deal of getting to know us to erase how we are first perceived.

If your first impression about someone you just met is positive, then you risk making their acquaintance. If your first impression is negative, chances are you won't have much to do with them. The first impression given off by a crossdresser is that we are trying to attract a male and when males try to attact males then they are visually seen as gay.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Many observers find MtoF changes as particularly disturbing because they suggest inadequacy, and our social traditions have (for far too long) suggested that male-ness connects with power, achievement, and fulfillment. For a man to be or want to become a woman is for many observers a step toward inadequacy. This is a product of a stultifying socio-cultural construction, but it is one reason that CDs/transgenders may receive more derision and ridicule than gays.

Hi Linnea-

To me, this is one reason I think that many men have such a problem with other men who are TG/CD while most women, generally speaking tend to be more accepting. While most men profess to love women, ie, want to have sex with them, many of them don't really respect or even like women, there is a great deal of misogyny in popular culture, especially among younger men.

Economically and socially, in an era when women still make about 76 cents on the dollar compared to their male counterparts, for a man to wish to become a woman or even to dress and act like a woman is equivalent of a white male in the pre-civilwar South wishing to become a blacke field hand. I don't mean that in any racial way, but for many men, this is how they see it, it makes the ground shift under their feet, it questions a given social verity, which makes them uncomfortable and for lots of guys their immediate reaction is hostility and rejection.

Perhaps I've overstated the case, I certainly don't mean that all men react this way, but I just wanted to toss it out for consideration.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[stacy-marie hanna]

Do this and go to Walmart and you will most likely end up on this site. (http://www.peopleofwalmart.com)great link i work in a supermarket and wish i could get away with having a cam on me as some of the outfits people call fashion are sooo funny and/or gross we get this big black mama who comes in every week wearing a pvc miniskirt regardless fo weather,its so short the bottom of its ass is showing.

stacy-marie

[JenniferR771]

I read a book Wade Rouse, (I think he is gay--at least he says so on page one). I don't understand much, but it was a great read. Loved his humor and his tales about living in the wilds of rural western Michigan. He takes great care to wear cute shoes, look good, keep his hair neat and his lips coated with lip balm. But he does not crossdress, and neither does his partner--except for a minor episode near the end of his book. And it is clear crossdressing has an entirely different meaning, a spoof, a lark. Anyway read his fun blog, and view the video when his partner parodies the "Bump-it" hair accessory in drag. Video is called "Bundt-it".
http://www.waderouse.com/content/blog/2009/09/bundt-it-baby.asp

[Joanne f]

Maybe one of the main difference`s is that you can see a cross dresser but you cannot see a gay person so unless the gay person had a sign on them saying "i am gay" you would not know any different were as someone in the opposite genders clothes will say " i am a cross dresser" even if they are not.

[Nicola2876]

I s'pose if you were a gay man expressing yourself openly in public you would or could experience something simular to a man CDing in public. Confidence plays a big part and how you carry yourself. We feel shame sometimes when pride is what's required!

[Beth Wilde]

I'm a gay man and a crossdresser. I do find it weird that I feel fine walking around with something gay on (Got the new stonewall t-shirt "some people are gay, get over it!"), yet the idea of going out dressed scares me. I do go out to a gay bar where we have a girls meet at night, but that is it and I am still jittery then!

[bridget jones]

We are looked at differently,some gay some not. I have noticed that everyone I have come out to(voluntarily and involuntary)automatically assume I must be gay. To be honest I am totally attracted to women but I have to admit,when enfemme I think about being with a handsome/muscular man.The only thing that makes it confusing to me about my sexualality is that if I orgasm enfemme I wash off the make up and rip my clothes of quickly thinking...."what is wrong with me"

[Rachel Morley]

.....does anyone have an opinion about the gay verses cd life style?Well one is about sexual orientation and the over is about gender expression, they're two completely different things.

However I do get your point about CDing is something you kinda wear on your sleeve (especially if you don't pass) ... very often you can't tell if a person is gay or not whereas a CDer is easier to identify. Is CDing a harder life to live? ... I don't know I suppose it depends on your attitude and confidence and self acceptance. It's not particularly hard for me, not anymore. It was in the beginning as I was scared of what people might do if they read me. I suppose if you can to a point where you realize that when you are out in mainstream public places, and you get read, that nothing bad is likely to happen (bad in the sense that your in danger of being hurt) it really is just the "stick and stones thing" as if anything at all happens it's usually just verbal.

Being gay on the other hand .. well I wouldn't know what all the issues are, but as far as same sex relationships goes, not being able to openly show public displays of affection to the person you love because of fear of retribution is a terrible thing in my view. Can you imagine how it must feel not being able to openly kiss your wife on the lips in the center of a busy mall without attracting attention?

Also, IMHO marriage is about making a lifetime commitment of love and devotion to someone you care very much about. If you're gay in many states you can't even do that. I feel very sad that my gay friends have these sorts of limitations in their lives, being a CDer is a breeze by comparison. :2c:

[tricia_uktv]

Yes, I have many gay friends who are out open about but are amased that I have the nerve to do what I do. But then I have many gay friends who happy that I do what I do. Life isn't so bad.

[Erica2Sweet]

My wife and I were having a discussion about cd and she brought up that she thought cross dressing would be worse than being gay. That being gay was more acceptable in public. Sure gay people have their problems but they are not openly laughed at ...but let a man dress as a woman and go out in public, just to walk down the street or go to a restaurant,minding your own business.....what do you think would happen? we have been married for over 20 years and I know how difficult it is.....if my husband had a choice he would not want to be a cross dresser. It is a difficult way to live ..wanting to dress one way but not feeling comfortable doing it,worried that your friends will find out. From my point of view it is a terrible way to live but what choice do you have? Sorry for getting carried away.....does anyone have an opinion about the gay verses cd life style? this is from my best friend and wife.:devil:

I go out to restaurants and shopping with my SO quite often and I know what happens when I go out enfemme. Everyone that she and I have come in contact with has been really nice. As for whether or not all or some of these folks have actually read me, I don't know. I've yet to experience any sort of negative reaction or discrimination though, and to me, that's the most important thing.

As far as CDing being some sort of burden, I'm going to have to disagree for the most part. I think it only becomes a burden if you allow it to impact your life negatively, or you choose not to address CDing related issues in a healthy way. It isn't hard to be happy and live a fulfilling life and dress however you want. The key I think is learning how to make that happen.

[DemonicDaughter]

What difference does it make? Honestly. So what if being gay was more acceptable? What does that mean to a crossdresser? Nothing really. Just that some lifestyle is more "socially acceptable" than yours. Same could be said about Goths being more accepted, or hetersexuals being more accepted.

Why are you specifically pointing out gays? Because its technically its the same community. The T in the GLBT covers this community and by fighting for the rights of that community your are helping your own lifestyle to be more accepted.

Its true of endless subcultures throughout the world. The comparison does nothing to promote or strengthen the community. It only stands to prove that someone thinks its more acceptable. Great! Now if you want to change that, start fighting for your individual rights.

[Fab Karen]

Hiding it from friends is a terrible way to live. Those that actually are friends will accept it, the rest aren't your friends to begin with.
You could ask the women how they feel about it that our society considers the "worst thing" a man can be is to be like a woman.

[Sophie_C]

What difference does it make? Honestly. So what if being gay was more acceptable? What does that mean to a crossdresser? Nothing really. Just that some lifestyle is more "socially acceptable" than yours. Same could be said about Goths being more accepted, or hetersexuals being more accepted.

Why are you specifically pointing out gays? Because its technically its the same community. The T in the GLBT covers this community and by fighting for the rights of that community your are helping your own lifestyle to be more accepted.

Its true of endless subcultures throughout the world. The comparison does nothing to promote or strengthen the community. It only stands to prove that someone thinks its more acceptable. Great! Now if you want to change that, start fighting for your individual rights.

The reason the gay thing comes up is because most people associate the two together. However wrong it is, it's a fact. And, do NOT presume that we're part of the same community. Don't you remember how we were thrown under the bus by all the GLB's in the last ENDA bill?

And, that's not the first time we've been ignored or even looked down upon by GLB's. Quite often we're only grudgingly accepted by the gay community, and if you aren't aware, we often 'creep' them out given how they prefer people in their aligned gender roles.

[Robyn2006]

I know there's a large part of our community that are... well, straight, though a hard sell I know. However, that's not me. I certainly love women and go nuts as any other guy at the sight of a beautiful girl. As a guy, I'm a guy. But as Robyn, every ounce of me falls into complete womanhood and I find myself a completely heterosexual girl with all the accompanying desires. To say I'm gay implies I'd like to be with a man as a man, which is hardly the case.

I know, seems the world would need Cliffs Notes to figure those like me out... Doesn't it?

Robyn

[sherri52]

I think in time we will get acceptance. We are picking it up slowly with the female members of society. We get our nails done, makeup, wigs, clothing, and even shoes nad we let the SA's know and most are cool with it. Most wives are seemingly coming around although I had 2 that did not. And some of the girls here have mentioned male friends that are OK with it. Someday the world will see 100,000 cd/tg/ts walking in a parade in Times Square and some of the onlookers wearing a dress to celebrate. Maybe no soon but someday.

[DemonicDaughter]

The reason the gay thing comes up is because most people associate the two together. However wrong it is, it's a fact. And, do NOT presume that we're part of the same community. Don't you remember how we were thrown under the bus by all the GLB's in the last ENDA bill?

And, that's not the first time we've been ignored or even looked down upon by GLB's. Quite often we're only grudgingly accepted by the gay community, and if you aren't aware, we often 'creep' them out given how they prefer people in their aligned gender roles.

Nor will it be the last time anyone will be looked down upon by the GLBT community as well as others. Just as the gay community is looked down upon by other groups. And a lot of gay people don't feel cders creep them out. Most of them seem to express the opinion of cders being in denial more than they express terms of being disgusted. It is why Drag Queens are more accepted by the majority of gay men than cders, because they feel DQs have "come to terms" with their sexuality and feel most cders have not.

But all that isn't really the point of my original statement.

The point is, what difference does it make that any one group is more accepted than another? Yes, being gay is more accepted. And? Now what? And being heterosexual is even more accepted than being gay. Again, the what does it matter? What does pointing it out accomplish?

If its associated with being gay, then pointing out one is more accepted than the other does nothing more than point out blue socks are more accepted than argyle socks. For socks are socks.

If its not associated with being gay then pointing it out...is basically the same as the end result doesn't change. I suspect that what I'm trying to get at is, it only matters if you let it. Is something more socially accepted than crossdressing? Thousands of things are. We know this already. So now what are we going to do about it?

[Lorileah]

:sb: Here we go again. What is worse slamming your hand in a car door or falling off the roof?

Here is the fact, being gay is becoming more accepted because 40 years ago gays decided to do something. They stood up and said "I am here I am queer get over it." They stood up and proved that they could do the job as well as the next person. They marched, they made noise, they proved that they could be good parents. They are still not all the way there yet. Proposition 8 proved that, but they have made strides. Why? because they came OUT and made people notice them. They have fought the stereotypes of ultra effeminate, perverted, promiscuous people. Or the ultra macho acts like a man male.

As anyone who has read my posts knows I am not a fan off the over the top "drag queen" image, but it was drag queens who started the fire. Gay men who dressed like women were the main focus of Stonewall. We had the ability to make something of it, just like the gays and lesbians did, but we chose to hide. Like little frightened mice behind them while they fought the fight.

We still hide behind them, the ugly step child the "T" in the GLBT. The afterthought, often dropped when legislation is initiated to help the bill pass. We hide in our closets afraid we will be called....wait for it...gay!. All the gay CD's here raise your hand...one, two, three...maybe 10% of the CD crowd at best? Yet we hide behind them. We don't work to help their image. In fact one of the things they have fought to shake is the image of a poorly made up man tempting either children or "straight" men. Hollywood still portrays us in as stereotypical manner as clowns or psychotics (name three films recently where we weren't...Crying Game, Soldiers Girl and I'll add La Vie En Rose ...watch it if you haven't yet) Now list three films where we were killers or clowns and I bet at least one is your favorite CD movie (To Wong Foo, Silence of the Lambs, Glen or Glenda). The gay friend or neighbor is more common in movies now but they still edge it with the light in the loafers tinge.

Is it harder to be gay? In most cases now they are accepted but they still can't marry. They still can't serve openly in the military, they aren't there yet but neither are most minorities


So many here on CD.com complain that they are not accepted by their spouses or families or neighbors but they add that they can't or won't leave the house. You cannot gain acceptance from behind the curtain.

So yes, tell your wife it is harder for us. It is harder for us because we make it harder for us. We let others fight and hope we gain the dregs of acceptance form their battles. It is so easy for most here to hide that tool box, tackle box storage unit from the world. We make it harder for us. Maybe we can make it easier....in 40 years. The gays have started it for us...but now they are thinking of leaving us behind. Maybe if we had been OUT for them, they would be out for us.

[Jamie001]

Lorileah,

Thank you for this post. You really said EXACTLY what needed to be said. Unfortunately I don't believe that things will change in the near future. CDs need to stop cowering in the closet and get other there and interact proudly with the world. Gays are making progress because they have the courage to get out in the world and be seen and heard. Is it possible for CDs to do the same? I really don't think it will happen in the next 10 to 20 years. CDs are too fearful and closeted. Overall it is really sad. Thanks to courageous gay folks that have paved the way for us. We need to ask ourselves: "do we have the courage to pick up the baton?" or will we remain in the closet?


:sb: Here we go again. What is worse slamming your hand in a car door or falling off the roof?

Here is the fact, being gay is becoming more accepted because 40 years ago gays decided to do something. They stood up and said "I am here I am queer get over it." They stood up and proved that they could do the job as well as the next person. They marched, they made noise, they proved that they could be good parents. They are still not all the way there yet. Proposition 8 proved that, but they have made strides. Why? because they came OUT and made people notice them. They have fought the stereotypes of ultra effeminate, perverted, promiscuous people. Or the ultra macho acts like a man male.

As anyone who has read my posts knows I am not a fan off the over the top "drag queen" image, but it was drag queens who started the fire. Gay men who dressed like women were the main focus of Stonewall. We had the ability to make something of it, just like the gays and lesbians did, but we chose to hide. Like little frightened mice behind them while they fought the fight.

We still hide behind them, the ugly step child the "T" in the GLBT. The afterthought, often dropped when legislation is initiated to help the bill pass. We hide in our closets afraid we will be called....wait for it...gay!. All the gay CD's here raise your hand...one, two, three...maybe 10% of the CD crowd at best? Yet we hide behind them. We don't work to help their image. In fact one of the things they have fought to shake is the image of a poorly made up man tempting either children or "straight" men. Hollywood still portrays us in as stereotypical manner as clowns or psychotics (name three films recently where we weren't...Crying Game, Soldiers Girl and I'll add La Vie En Rose ...watch it if you haven't yet) Now list three films where we were killers or clowns and I bet at least one is your favorite CD movie (To Wong Foo, Silence of the Lambs, Glen or Glenda). The gay friend or neighbor is more common in movies now but they still edge it with the light in the loafers tinge.

Is it harder to be gay? In most cases now they are accepted but they still can't marry. They still can't serve openly in the military, they aren't there yet but neither are most minorities


So many here on CD.com complain that they are not accepted by their spouses or families or neighbors but they add that they can't or won't leave the house. You cannot gain acceptance from behind the curtain.

So yes, tell your wife it is harder for us. It is harder for us because we make it harder for us. We let others fight and hope we gain the dregs of acceptance form their battles. It is so easy for most here to hide that tool box, tackle box storage unit from the world. We make it harder for us. Maybe we can make it easier....in 40 years. The gays have started it for us...but now they are thinking of leaving us behind. Maybe if we had been OUT for them, they would be out for us.