Two different responses to a dude wearing makeup

[Xenia]

Today, my wife and I, dutiful consumerists that we are, spent the afternoon at the local mall. While we were browsing at Sephora (really, what mall expedition is complete without a stop in Sephora, amiright?), we both agreed that my eyes needed a little color. After a little experimentation, I settled on a nice shimmery blue shadow, and an extremely enthusiastic salesgirl absolutely insisted on finishing off the look with some liquid liner and mascara. I think it was a great look--not too subtle, not too overdone--so after we made our purchases, the little lady and I decided, what the heck, might as well just leave it on while we do the rest of our shopping.

So about an hour later, as we were riding the down escalator, a woman--fiftyish, I'd guess, with a teenage daughter in tow--tapped me on the shoulder from behind and said "I just love your eyeshadow....such a pretty color!" We stopped and chatted briefly, my wife commenting on how much fun she has trying different looks on me, the woman remarking on how terribly unfair it was that I had such long eyelashes, etc. I have to admit, I was feeling a little glowy from having a bit of random positive attention from a total stranger. I was ready to give her a big hug before we went our separate ways.

But then a bit later, we were doing a little window shopping, and a pack of five 11- or 12-year old girls walked by. One of them gave me a good hard look, stifled a giggle, and whispered to the girl next to her. They kept walking for about 20 feet, did a little huddle, and headed back towards us, this time with all five of them staring directly at my face in what I'm sure they thought was a very subtle and not-at-all-completely-frakking-obvious way. Another 20 feet, and they made another about-face and headed in for another look, this time with one of them holding a camera phone at chest level (again, totally subtle and unnoticeable). I got a chuckle out of it, but my wife was ready to chase them down and smash the phone on the ground for their being such obnoxious little snots. I know, I know, just about everyone's an idiot at that age, but don't they teach kids any manners at all these days? Geez!

[Rachel Morley]

<smile> .... I too have had tons of compliments from GGs about just how lucky I am to have such long eyelashes and that they are just screaming to have mascara on them :)

Young teenage girls laughing or giggling used to really bother me big time but now I kinda have an attitude of "well they are young and immature ... bless their little hearts, they've never seen a guy wearing makeup before and so giggling is the only reaction they know". :) The more they see it the more it becomes normal. I'm helping and educating them :D

[Loni]

there are laws agenst taking someones photo with out there ok.

general photos of a area is legal. but "a subject".
who knows were that photo is going to end up.:eek:

:2c:

.

[Sally2005]

I would say taking a photo is crossing the line.... a little harmless sightseeing though, you might as well have some fun with them...

[Schatten Lupus]

I've never got compliments on it. But the very few times I've went out with make on, the first time I thought it was off and it wasn't, but it was a small amount left so it was hard to notice and most probably thought it was just dark circles around my eyes. The other times, it was a darker "rocker/goth" type of makeup, which I can naturally pull of with my normal appearance, and the only ones that look are the ones that think I'm a freak, and probably would have stared even without the makeup.

[Hope]

there are laws agenst taking someones photo with out there ok.

general photos of a area is legal. but "a subject".
who knows were that photo is going to end up.:eek:


You are absolutely right that you never know where a photo taken by someone else is going to end up... Which IS a problem in some cases.

However - In the United States, if you are in public, or even just visible from public property, you can be photographed with or without your consent, and you have no legal recourse. You can make a scene about it and confront the photographer, but those pictures are even more amusing. In a situation like this one where you are inside a mall (private property) you can ask security to escort the photographer out of the building, but he does not have to comply - and would likely only do so if you could show how the mall was being harmed by the girl's actions. What you cannot do is demand that the photographer delate her pictures of you.

While I am not an attorney, this guy is:

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

[Sweet Jane]

i'm pleased that someone made such a nice comment about your make up...as for the gir;s. well hey, like all kids they just lack tact!!!!....as for the photo, i guess if you were out in public that way you don't much worry about who sees you, so just smile graciously and thats what the girls will remember...a polite person with a great smile, not afraid to wear eye makeup!!!

[tricia_uktv]

We have to admit that it comes as part of the territory. If you start engaging the young in conversation I find they either listen, or run a mile!

[Sarasometimes]

Quote "I know, I know, just about everyone's an idiot at that age, but don't they teach kids any manners at all"

Too few parents teach this anymore!!!! They don't even expect please and thank you from their own kids!! Sorry to hear about the tweens! Good chance that if their parents were with them they would have their cameras out too. The apple rarely falls far from the tree. I believe if parent teach their kids manners they are much less likely to do "BAD" things as well. You get out of children what you expect of them!!! My two don't get anything without being polite. Sorry, I will now get down off my soapbox, I think I smudged my mascara, Sara

[SamanthaS]

I think you were incredible brave to continue to shop while being bothered by these butt-heads. I wish I had your courage.

[Sandra]

YesIMO taking a pic was wrong but, I bet that if you or your wife had spoken to those girls you may have had a good conversation with them. Ok some of them are little :censor: but they are more forth coming than most adults.

[StacyCD]

There are cameras almost everywhere where there are people and not just counting those on phones. There are security cameras at all malls and most stores. When you go out, simply plan on being on camera. The good news is that the resolution of most of them is pretty poor. However as technology marches on, the quality is getting better and better!

[Bailey_in_Mansfield]

Haha, very interesting responses to the makeup :) In the very few occasions when I've gone out en femme, the thing I get the most compliments on is my legs. I did get a couple of compliments on my eyelashes but then admitted they were fake lashes. When they asked where to get them 'cause they looked so real... "Oh, just CVS pharmacy really." They arched their eyebrows. "Seriously!? I'm gonna head there on my lunch break then!"

[Elaine Michelle]

It would have been interesting if you had pulled out a camera and pointed it at the girls. I wonder if that would have discouraged them a little.

Elaine

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

From my previous job as a substitute teacher I have determined that tweens, especially girls have the social grace and subtlety of a pack of wild dogs. They were probably more scared of you tha. You were of them. You threatened the status quo and that puts the pack on alert.

[sherri52]

Accept the compliment and ignore the little girls and the day was a success.

[Katie145]

But then a bit later, we were doing a little window shopping, and a pack of five 11- or 12-year old girls walked by. One of them gave me a good hard look, stifled a giggle, and whispered to the girl next to her. They kept walking for about 20 feet, did a little huddle, and headed back towards us, this time with all five of them staring directly at my face in what I'm sure they thought was a very subtle and not-at-all-completely-frakking-obvious way. Another 20 feet, and they made another about-face and headed in for another look, this time with one of them holding a camera phone at chest level (again, totally subtle and unnoticeable). I got a chuckle out of it, but my wife was ready to chase them down and smash the phone on the ground for their being such obnoxious little snots. I know, I know, just about everyone's an idiot at that age, but don't they teach kids any manners at all these days? Geez!

This story is EXACTLY why I have apprehensions about going out En Femme. Older people seem to have a much different reaction when they see a TG person. Younger types seem to not care if they embarrass someone different. As for me, I guess I'm still a bit of a "younger type", and really can't handle negative reactions as well as others.

[jessikasummerfox]

You are absolutely right that you never know where a photo taken by someone else is going to end up... Which IS a problem in some cases.

However - In the United States, if you are in public, or even just visible from public property, you can be photographed with or without your consent, and you have no legal recourse. You can make a scene about it and confront the photographer, but those pictures are even more amusing. In a situation like this one where you are inside a mall (private property) you can ask security to escort the photographer out of the building, but he does not have to comply - and would likely only do so if you could show how the mall was being harmed by the girl's actions. What you cannot do is demand that the photographer delate her pictures of you.

While I am not an attorney, this guy is:

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

Yep, in the U.S., if you're in public, then people can indeed take your picture. However, it's my understanding that they DO need your consent if they want to have the picture published anywhere. So, if they plan to upload it to flickr or anywhere, then they would need to get you to sign a model release. Right? Isn't that how it works? But if they're just taking it for personal use to show friends later, then yeah, there's not much you can do.

In any case, I seriously doubt that most teenagers would ever think about this before uploading a photo to anywhere, which is why I love Elaine's suggestion about pulling out your own camera and pointing it at them. I'm sure it would at least make them think twice.

[ChanDelle]

I've always thought men would look better with a subtle bit of makeup on eyes and even lips. Our eyes are really not visible and makeup, even if subtle, would help a lot. As for the teenies, they just didn't know quite what to do and dithered about it seems trying to figure out what to do and how to react.

I applaud you for you and your wife's guts to be there and to confront their little minds. I'm sure most of them thought your eyes were fantastic!!!!

ChanDelle

[vetobob9]

there are laws agenst taking someones photo with out there ok.

general photos of a area is legal. but "a subject".
who knows were that photo is going to end up.:eek:

:2c:

.
Actually those laws vary from nation to nation and state to state. In the US, you have the right to take photographs of anything. As far as getting a person's ok, we are talking commercial speech which is not protected by the first amendment. You cannot take a person's photo and then use to promote a product or service unless they have consented to being associated with the product/service.
The other thing, which applies to the little girls, is that you cannot take a person's photo and then use it in a way that subjects them to harassment, ridecule, or defamation.
Other than commercialism and defamation, public or street photography as it is called, is protected by the federal and state constitutions.
I've done candid photography. Most will delete the picture if you ask politely and have a valid reason, which does not include the false "it's illegal" argument. The best and most honest reason to give is that you don't necessarily need to have reason. It also helps to ask what they are going to use the pictures for and ask to see them. If he/she is doing nothing wrong, they should have no problem letting you see the photo.

[vetobob9]

You are absolutely right that you never know where a photo taken by someone else is going to end up... Which IS a problem in some cases.

However - In the United States, if you are in public, or even just visible from public property, you can be photographed with or without your consent, and you have no legal recourse. You can make a scene about it and confront the photographer, but those pictures are even more amusing. In a situation like this one where you are inside a mall (private property) you can ask security to escort the photographer out of the building, but he does not have to comply - and would likely only do so if you could show how the mall was being harmed by the girl's actions. What you cannot do is demand that the photographer delate her pictures of you.

While I am not an attorney, this guy is:

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm
Actually you can request or you can demand but ultimately it's the photographer who makes the call on whether to delete and he is under no obligation to do so.
According to California's State Supreme Court, malls are public free speech zones. There are speech activities they cannot ban. One of those is public photography. There is case, from January of 2009, on this which dealt with a mall banning people handing out flyers, the CSSC ruled the mall can't ban you from protesting or handing out flyers even if the flyers are calling for a boycott of the mall or one of its tenant businesses.
In the same case, they ruled that all parking lots, both public and private, are also free speech zones as long as you don't impede traffic or create a safety hazard.
Now Washington's top court is more liberal. Taking it too far, they allow people to photography under skirts or dresses on the basis the woman is in a public place. But I don't agree that the space under our clothing is public. I believe it is personal and private.
Take photos of people all you want, just don't invade their personal privacy space. That's one of the reason my sister told me girls wear pants under their skirts/dresses. The other reason is it makes more difficult for rapists to gain access to the special area.

[Lorileah]

maybe those girls were fans of Adam Lambert and just thought it was cool

[Katie145]

This is exactly why I fear going En Femme in a busy place:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v_3gA1HgA8

The fact that they posted it is garbage. I hope it's not any of you, and if it is, I hope you can convince Youtube to take it down.

[Super Amanda]

This is exactly why I fear going En Femme in a busy place:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v_3gA1HgA8

The fact that they posted it is garbage. I hope it's not any of you, and if it is, I hope you can convince Youtube to take it down.


I just flagged that video, plus part 2 as well...hopefully they will pull them down.

[vetobob9]

Yep, in the U.S., if you're in public, then people can indeed take your picture. However, it's my understanding that they DO need your consent if they want to have the picture published anywhere. So, if they plan to upload it to flickr or anywhere, then they would need to get you to sign a model release. Right? Isn't that how it works? But if they're just taking it for personal use to show friends later, then yeah, there's not much you can do.

In any case, I seriously doubt that most teenagers would ever think about this before uploading a photo to anywhere, which is why I love Elaine's suggestion about pulling out your own camera and pointing it at them. I'm sure it would at least make them think twice.

There is a case from New York that would apply to your Flickr analogy. A photographer installed a secret camera on a poll at an intersection. The camera would automatically photograph people as they walked by. The man took the photos and selected a handful of them. He took these photos and published them in a street photography book which was put on sale in book stores.
Another Gentlemen, Mr. X, was one of the people who was photographed. He was deeply offended at his picture being in the book because he had not consented. He first tried to sue by claiming invasion of privacy. The courts threw the charge out.
Then he claimed right of publicity. That's the name of the right governments have been granting where you have to get permission to publish. Here it took an interesting turn. It turns out that to claim violation of this right, you have to be the primary target of the book. In other words your image has to be on the cover. On the web, your image would have to be on the homepage and the person has to be making money off of it.
Because the photo was in the middle of the book buried with photos of tens of other people, Mr X, was clearly not being specially taken advantage of. The courts ruled against Mr. X.
On Flickr, no one is making money off it. Or they shouldn't be. You can type in street photography on the site's search engine and it will pop up with thousands of candid photos of various people at parks and public roads/intersections.
The thing with Flickr is it hard to determine intent, unless you go by the actual comments of the person taking the photos, if there are any.

[vetobob9]

This is exactly why I fear going En Femme in a busy place:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v_3gA1HgA8

The fact that they posted it is garbage. I hope it's not any of you, and if it is, I hope you can convince Youtube to take it down.

A couple of things about that video make it illegal:

1. While you can videotape in a shopping center, the actual businesses do not allow photography of any kind. I'm surprised the person was not kicked out by store security for videotaping. Stores do not allow you take photos or videos. Bring this to the attention of the store management and the videographer will no longer be welcome there.

2. Sexual harrassment. You can tell by the comments he was making that the video was designed to harrass and humiliate.

3. Stalking. Following a person with a camera is a type of stalk.

This video clearly should be flagged.

[jessikasummerfox]

Then he claimed right of publicity. That's the name of the right governments have been granting where you have to get permission to publish. Here it took an interesting turn. It turns out that to claim violation of this right, you have to be the primary target of the book. In other words your image has to be on the cover. On the web, your image would have to be on the homepage and the person has to be making money off of it.

Very interesting, I did not know that. Thanks for the info.

[Xenia]

Accept the compliment and ignore the little girls and the day was a success.

I think this sums up my own feelings quite succinctly. :)

The first woman was sweet as can be, and put a big smile on my face. As for the girls, hey, I'm 34 years old, so there's probably nothing a pack of tweens can do to make me feel bad. I just thought their obnoxiousness was a pretty stark contrast to the earlier interaction.

So, yes, on the balance, a lovely day. :)

[DonnaT]

I bet those girls use the picture as a way to get a boy or two to let them put makeup on them!

[VeronicaV]

Kudos to you for having the courage and confidence to get a makeover AND continue to shop. Quite encouraging!

[Xenia]

I bet those girls use the picture as a way to get a boy or two to let them put makeup on them!

Haha, I hadn't considered that possibility! Next time I'll give 'em a big smile and make sure they get a closeup! :)