Banned from Michfest

[Melissa A.]

Some of you may remember my thread last Spring about this site. I had heard about the Michigan Womyn's Music festival, and the general view there toward trans women, and decided to visit and see what all the fuss was about. Now, I am perfectly willing to admit that once I read the ugliness there, I may have been a less than gracious guest. I spent the next week getting my ass verbally kicked by the regulars on the forum board. Eventually, I gave up, and figured you're never going to change some minds, and that's ok. Besides, my problem really wasn't with the event itself, which I have no desire to attend, but the general opinion about trans women. The original thread I posted on was titled something like "L says get your T off our neck" or something like that, approximately pages 3 and 4. I don't really remember exactly, and I can't go in any more to make sure. But it's still there, or was yesterday. I never really planned to go back, until yesterday, when I read something that reminded me of Michfest, and wandered back in. I saw a thread titled something like "How to appropriate womanhood in 7 easy steps" Again, It's not so much the event to me. There is a very small part of me that tries to understand their feelings. But this thread doesn't even mention the festival. So, me being me, I had to respond, in some way. Oops. tried to log in today, and apparantly, my "account has been suspended". This from a forum which states on it's first page that "we will not censor views on this board, and tolerate diversity of opinion" Whoops. Well, it is true they don't say a thing about banning people who dissagree with them. Those of you with the time and stomach to read this garbage can decide for yourselves if I deserved it.....Maybe I did. I do find exclusion and marginalization from those who know what it's like to be marginalized and belittled pretty ironic. Whatever. I do know these are not the views of the overwhelming majority of lesbians, or feminists. So I'll look at my forced exit as a badge of honor.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[Jason+]

Melissa,

Out of curiosity I went to the michfest site and got this:

"This account has been suspended. If you are the account owner, please contact your service provider. "

I think maybe the site owners account got suspended as I've never had an account with them so I know mine isn't.

[Sharon]

It is always sad to see outright prejudice towards one minority fighting for their rights from another (Barney Frank is notable proof of that.) It is disingenuous to say the least. You just have to wonder, if we can't get respect and acceptance from a group such as this, then what chance do we have in the hearts of the scared, ignorant masses?

[Melissa A.]

Melissa,

Out of curiosity I went to the michfest site and got this:

"This account has been suspended. If you are the account owner, please contact your service provider. "

I think maybe the site owners account got suspended as I've never had an account with them so I know mine isn't.

Ok. Thank you, Jason. I stand corrected about my "banning". I apologize, all. I'm not all that knowledgable when it comes to web terminology(or computer stuff in general!) and just figured the "account owner" was me. The previously stated opinions about the pervasive views there still stand, however.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[Angel.Marie76]

This link I found while trying to read up on this point to a pay-to-read site with an apparrent research paper about the exclusion of Transwomen to the Michfest event.. wish I could read it, but I don't think I'm up for coughing up the money....

The Politics of Inclusion and the Boycott of Michfest Performers

http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/3/4/7/6/p234763_index.html?type=info&PHPSESSID=26d00b8753e3df4d1d3f319e987299f5#get_doc ument

[Lorileah]

This from a forum which states on it's first page that "we will not censor views on this board, and tolerate diversity of opinion"

If that is the direct quote I see the loophole there. Breaking down the sentence they will not censor views and they will not (since it is a run on sentence) tolerate diversity of opinion. See they were right and you were in the wrong. :heehee:

So explain this Michfest thingy, only womyn (as they say) are allowed? Doesn't sound like someplace I would find fun. Heck even Monster Trucks lets women in...and we KNOW that is a male thing :hugs:

[Ze]

Damn, I want to read that, too. Maybe I can get it through my college.

I'm pretty sure I'm not getting my festivals crossed, but this is the one where it's pretty much "no boys allowed," right? (The exception being very young boys up to a certain age.) The only argument I remember making somewhat sense (wait, wait, bear with me) to the MtF exclusion was that GFs were afraid MtFs wouldn't totally "get it," due to their X number of years unwillingly living as males and thus potentially reaping blind privileges from it, therefore tainting the sense of freedom and autonomy of the other women attending.

However, the argument has holes. MtFs really can carry the threat of blind privilege if they're still oddly holding onto their formal "male" self, but they get knocked down a lot of pegs due to their identity, transition, and resulting permanent womanhood. In my opinion, any privilege they may have once held will largely be erased. Further, I remember hearing stories of MtFs that really were bullying and putting down other women at the festival, but it turns out most of those individuals were CDers, not TSs.

It seems, from what I know, that a few bad apple CDers ruined it for the TSs that really do have a right to be there. (No offense to any of the CDers out there, but I truly don't think CDers should be allowed at the festival. That is a complete breach of the festival's point.) This doesn't make the TS exclusion right, of course, but this is the reasoning and viewpoint I've heard.

Case in point, this is where education plays a really important role. The world needs to be more aware of the differences between identities.

And just to throw the other side of the coin out here, being FtM, I feel that I have no right to be there. I've actually had two chances to go to this festival and declined both. (And since topless women + undetected Ze = awesome weekend, this was actually a lot harder to decline than you'd think. :D) But it just isn't ethical to me.

So I know I have no right to go there--and I'm sure many who attend that festival would agree with me--yet really, really butch lesbians can still go to it. Weird, huh? The secret sauce all comes down to identity.

Therefore, if I can't (or shouldn't) go because I strictly identify as male, then MtFs should be able to go because they strictly identify as female. Makes sense in my book. The problem is that many stereotypes have been stirred up and "proven" due to a handful of negative influences that aren't even related.

[melimelo]

Wow, Michigan is really having something against transgender people. First the "enlightened" state rep Paul Scott and his great project of denying transpersons the change of the gender marker on their driver's license. And now MichFest and their not-too-subtle attack on transwomen. I had no plans to go to Michigan, but I will now actively avoid it! :sad:

Hopefully, as Melissa wrote, this represents the opinion of a minority, but unfortunately, they're the ones we hear the loudest... :notlistening:

[ReineD]

I went to the forum to have a look around and found this thread starter. There are 11 pages to the thread:


Thread title: Butch and Femme

so recently i had a pretty huge loudmouthed discussion with a bunch of loudmouthed friends about this topic.

we were a range of identities...from butch to genderf**k to femme, i don't believe anyone identified as high femme, although we had a spectrum from high to low on both ends of the identity. althouth i guess half of the issue is we weren't sure there was an "end" to the spectrum.

what are you all thinking about butch femme these days? how do you identify? what does this mean to you? (culturally, politically, sexually) to be identified or disidentified with butch femme stuff?

It sounds as if they are as concerned about labels and they create as many divisions among even themselves as we do here ... on occasion.

[kellycan27]

It is always sad to see outright prejudice towards one minority fighting for their rights from another (Barney Frank is notable proof of that.) It is disingenuous to say the least. You just have to wonder, if we can't get respect and acceptance from a group such as this, then what chance do we have in the hearts of the scared, ignorant masses?

Kind of like right here on this forum, people distancing themselves from the gay community with the ever present "I am not gay" disclaimers? Even with the added " I don't have a problem with gays" or I have "gay friends" it still sounds at the very least like distancing if not homophobia. Then we wonder why we are not included in the LGB fight?

[sherri52]

I don't think any place should restrain anyone from attending. If it is geared toward women, fine. If a man should want to pay the admission he should be allowed in. He may be bored what to death but let him in.

[kellycan27]

I don't think any place should restrain anyone from attending. If it is geared toward women, fine. If a man should want to pay the admission he should be allowed in. He may be bored what to death but let him in.

We have areas right here that are restricted.....F.A.B, Safe Haven, Transmen. I don't see anyone complaining about those? GG's, Ts, F2M, CD all have things that don't concern anyone else but them, so why shouldn't they be allowed to discuss their issues in a private areas? Why shouldn't this lesbian group be allowed to restict whom ever? Are tg's being discriminated against for not being allowed to enter these sanctuaries? (for lack of a better word).

[sandra-leigh]

We have areas right here that are restricted.....F.A.B, Safe Haven, Transmen.

Actually... it has been a source of grumbling for years here (not from me, but I've seen complaints posted about it, and I've seen the mods and admins react to complaints that I was not privy to.)

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Some of you may remember my thread last Spring about this site. I had heard about the Michigan Womyn's Music festival, and the general view there toward trans women, and decided to visit and see what all the fuss was about. Now, I am perfectly willing to admit that once I read the ugliness there, I may have been a less than gracious guest. I spent the next week getting my ass verbally kicked by the regulars on the forum board.

Don't hang around the RadFems, didn't anyone tell you yet? :-) Especially "Heart", bet she got you, didn't she.



So explain this Michfest thingy, only womyn (as they say) are allowed?

Womyn born womyn. Though they let FTM's in, because they still consider them womyn. Apparently to the RadFem's that run MWMF, biology is destiny. And technically an MTF can get in, they don't do a pnaty check, though if they figure out you're an MTF you probably will be "encouraged" to leave. And in fact they say that MTF's who do come in prove they aren't women because real womyn have respect for womynspaces or something like that.

And it's a predominately lesbian festival, and everyone knows it, including the het women who sometimes go, and are made to feel unwelcome/disrespected because of it.




I'm pretty sure I'm not getting my festivals crossed, but this is the one where it's pretty much "no boys allowed," right? (The exception being very young boys up to a certain age.)

Yep.


And just to throw the other side of the coin out here, being FtM, I feel that I have no right to be there.

Theyd let you in, though, because you were womyn born womyn, in their view you're still a womyn, even though you're a dude. Yeah, they don't respect FTM's male identity, and some FTM's who still feel a connection to the lesbian community they were part of, go to MWMF.


But it just isn't ethical to me.

I agree. Personally though I'd probably like the music and some of the seminars I will not go to MWMF and step one foot on what they call "The Land". Also, high femmes and mud do not mix, now if they held it at some convention center in a city with nice shopping close by, that would be a different story. :-)



So I know I have no right to go there--and I'm sure many who attend that festival would agree with me--yet really, really butch lesbians can still go to it. Weird, huh? The secret sauce all comes down to identity.

Yup, as I said once after looking at a photo of the people manning the gate:
"They don't let men in but they hired men to guard the gate from TS's? Ohhhh.....wait." Lets just say that I figure that some of the "womyn" they let in are secretly doing "T", and live as male outside of MWMF.


Therefore, if I can't (or shouldn't) go because I strictly identify as male, then MtFs should be able to go because they strictly identify as female. Makes sense in my book.

Yup.

Veronica Rogers

[kellycan27]

Actually... it has been a source of grumbling for years here (not from me, but I've seen complaints posted about it, and I've seen the mods and admins react to complaints that I was not privy to.)

people are going to bitch about everything, but is the .com being discriminatory in their practice? Or are they exercising their right as a private entity to include or exclude whom ever they choose for what ever reason?

[ReineD]

I spent some more time on their site and they are elitist. I find it odd that they do not believe in TS gender identity, for either F2M or M2F. And they HATE CDs. I sensed they dislike GMs and GFs as well.

I wonder what their stance is on racial diversity! It's just very weird that they invalidate gender identification and sexual preferences different than their own. I wonder if there is similar bias, although to a lesser degree, among Ls in general. If even Ls who are not rad believe deep down that TGs are just play-acting.

How can people who are marginalized themselves be this narrow minded? This group believes in biological truth. Don't they realize that everything, even personality traits, have their basis in our genes?

[Sally24]

It's just very weird that they invalidate gender identification and sexual preferences different than their own. I wonder if there is similar bias, although to a lesser degree, among Ls in general.
The lesbian clubs that I've visited have seemed to be quite welcoming. Granted they are mostly of a young age, and it is a night club. I would suspect that this group or organization is a little far to one side in their beliefs.

When people comment about understanding why this or that group welcomes TS but not CD's I always cringe a little. You have to know that there are a fair amount of us CD's that in a different situation would be TS's. I pretty much treat every new gurl I meet like a non-op TS because you never know where they are at on the spectrum.
Just something to think about.......

[Niya W]

I Lnow one ts that has ben to michfest. they were actually shamed but a counter group that was upset that they would not let trans women in.

[sandra-leigh]

people are going to bitch about everything, but is the .com being discriminatory in their practice? Or are they exercising their right as a private entity to include or exclude whom ever they choose for what ever reason?

This site's servers appear to be somewhere in the United States. I do not know the details of anti-discrimination law in the USA.

What I can say is that in Canada, there is no unqualified legal right for a private entity to "include or exclude whom ever they choose for what ever reason". If the grounds being selected upon have exclusions that are contrary to the Canada Charter of Rights, or the Canada Human Rights Act, then it isn't necessarily the case that the business is prohibited from the discrimination, but the business has to establish that the discrimination is "necessary" for the goals of the business, and that those goals were reasonable. For example, it has been accepted (by court case) that a religion teacher at a religious school had to be of the faith being taught -- but it was denied (in a court case) that the maintenance staff at a religious school had to be of the faith being taught, since the maintenance staff were not engaged in teaching the students.

A high profile case in Ontario established that school children could not simply be prohibited from gathering in shopping malls, even though their presence might make some shoppers uncomfortable. The malls are, however, allowed to ask them to leave if they are making too much noise, actively annoying other customers or the like: there has to be specific grounds, not just a general assumption that all school children are problems.

I do not know the details that apply to "private clubs" in Canada -- but I do know that "private clubs" require a membership fee.

[Niya W]

Private group can do what every the want in the US , provided they dont except federal funding

[ReineD]

When people comment about understanding why this or that group welcomes TS but not CD's I always cringe a little.

But this group doesn't welcome TSs, whom they believe are "appropriating" a female identity. :eek:

[Felicity71]

Life wasnt meant to be easy.

[Stephenie S]

It seems to me that the MWMF has every right to exclude men if they so desire. Women don't want men in their locker rooms at the gym. Women don't want men in their bathrooms in the mall. Women don't want men at their music festival. It's a music festival for WOMEN, for goodness sake!

Now, does a fully transitioned MtF have a right to go? I would think so. The festival might not really WANT a fully transitioned MtF there (for what ever silly reasons), but who would know? Fully transitioned means just that. A woman. And women are invited. What's the problem?

Men wearing women's clothes? Sorry, I think not. That's not what the festival is all about. The showers are open. There's only one shower curtained off. Many women go topless. That's the way they WANT it. It's a place for WOMEN.

There is a HUGE lesbian component to the festival, but isn't that to be expected at a women's only venue? Many lesbians feel, rightly or wrongly, that MtFs are somehow not women. Do I? No, I do not. But no one is requiring your presence there. If you're not a woman, stay home.

Stephenie

[Sara Jessica]

Such an interesting thread, and of course unfortunate that it even has to be discussed.


I pretty much treat every new gurl I meet like a non-op TS because you never know where they are at on the spectrum.
Just something to think about.......

This is so true Sally. I've said before that we don't exactly wear labels identifying where one resides with respect to the TG spectrum.


It seems, from what I know, that a few bad apple CDers ruined it for the TSs that really do have a right to be there.

And no matter how someone self-identifies, when we present in public we are a reflection on the entire community. Those who have limited interactions with our community often will form strong opinions and perceptions based on those encounters. Another something to think about, I know I do each and every time I go out.

[noeleena]

Hi..
For me im not bothered how you dress or what you look like & if you have to use a name to tell me what you are thats okay . male or female or a mix of both its not a concern as we are all human or people .
is that so hard for some to understand . or are they scared of they may have to admit we are not at all that different . i know some hard core lesbain s who will never accept those who are different . like me even if we are born andro . or those like many here . we seem to be a threat to them . or are they that insecure ,
Yet i have some friends who are close & they were quite happy being near me . not a problem .
So i do wonder why .....oh the word acceptance is that a part of thier learning . may be not . more s the pity .

...noeleena...

[Hope]

Private group can do what every the want in the US , provided they dont except federal funding

In theory.

But there have been plenty of all male clubs that have been forced to accept female members. For some reason it is more acceptable to have an exclusively female organization, but an exclusively male organization is not acceptable.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Private group can do what every the want in the US , provided they dont except federal funding

This is true, but its not all about private group laws in the US...its about how there are women out there that absolutely hate us, and if given the chance there is no doubt they would try to harm and exclude us socially, culturally, politically....

( i was gonna say they'd do anything to screw us...but somehow that didnt seem right):devil:

anyway...it feels personal to me,....this hurts me that these people are out there..:sad:

[patti.jean]

Ok, I have speak up to not let you think Michigan is not accepting of CDs. True Mishfest does have issues with us, but lets not go there……………. There are many places in Michigan that are accepting of CDs. For one I invite everyone to take a look at the Douglas Dune near Saugatuck Michigan. As every spring recently they have a TG Weekend this year it is April 9, 10 http://douglasdunes.com. It is prom weekend; the agenda is open and a lot of fun. Plus you get to stay in a hotel instead of camping. There is also a fall event. Both of these events are attended by us girls from all over the Midwest and further east.

[WalT]

Heh, those types of women are no more accepting of FtMs because they see us as just women that want male privilege.

Which sounds VERY much like patriarchal thinking to me. :brolleyes:

Nevermind their obviously discriminatory views of barring MtFs from attending is also entirely based on patriarchal assumptions about gender....

I just don't understand feminists like them sometimes.