Do we really want this?

[PetiteDuality]

Sometimes as CDs we express our desire that men wearing women clothes would be more normal and accepted by society.

But the other day I was thinking about this, and I think it would not be that great.

Let me explain myself:

I used to dream about shaving my legs. I was convinced that is was my most feminine feature.

Since I'm a runner, I'm used to see guys with shaved legs. The first time I shaved my legs it was a big thrill... for about one day. The feeling was great, but after looking at myself in the mirror I could only see a leg that definitively belonged to a specimen from the male gender. It was a big disappointment. I really thought I had girly legs until that day.

Maybe if I were not used to see guys with shaved legs, my shaved legs would be more different that theirs, and more alike to women legs.

I think it would happen the same with clothes, makeup, etc. If we get used to see too many guys in women clothes, then we would not be as different as the rest of the guys, nor more similar to the gals. It would not be "special". People would be able to read us much more easily (now the silhouette of a woman would require a second glance), and they would be more trained to differentiate us from the girls.

I think that the general acceptance would kill the magic...

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I'm sure that a lot of folks on here feel the way you do. I do not. The more accepted I am as a guy in a skirt the better I feel. When I manage to pull off something like tights or eyeliner in guy mode I feel good. I like looking into my closet and seeing skirts that have become a standard part of my wardrobe and not a special occasions only thing.

Also, try slipping on some heels, that'll lady them up real quick.

[Elle1946]

To me I feel like it is a state of mind more than the way we actually look. Like shaved legs they might look like a mans legs shaved but, the way I feel mentally and physically after I shave my legs, is what feels good to me. In some ways it is how each person looks and feels about themself.

[Karren H]

I could care less who accepts me.... I accept me and that's all that counts....

[melissacd]

I agree with Elle in the sense that much of what this is about is as much a state of mind as anything else. If I based how I felt about all of this on how well I passed as a female then I would give it up right away, but in actual fact this is more about a way of life and a way of expressing myself that falls outside of the male norms and fits more within the feminine domain. I know that I am not and never will be a female, but I do know that I can express and enjoy a creative and fun feminine side to myself.

Melissa Paige

[Rianna Humble]

:iagree: about this being a way of life. To me it is not about "being different", it is about expressing who I am which includes my femininity even if I will never "pass" as a female.

I do think more acceptance by mainstream society would be to the good. It would certainly mean that we would need fewer threads about the fear of being discovered.

[Kate Simmons]

The goal in my mind is to be accepted for who I am as a person and not as this or that. Once that is accomplished, everything else is simply a matter of choice.:)

[sherri52]

Dressing is about how you feel and how you want to be percieved to yourself and for some; others. Years ago 75 or more women didn't wear pants, now they do but those that want to still look like women. If dress code change and we all wore the same clothes, there would still be a difference between men and women and those of us here would probably still want that difference to look like a woman

[msniki48]

I could care less who accepts me.... I accept me and that's all that counts....

I truly envy you Karren. as much as I have tried, I can't let go of what people think....especially family...and Lord knows it has greatly effected my choices as niki.

When i grow up hun... i want to be like you. i think that will be when i can say i have arrived.!!!

Hugs


msniki48

[Jess]

PetiteDuality,
I agree with you, to a point.
Melissa,
I think that you accidentally agreed, again to a point.
If this was a societal accepted norm, then it would no longer be "within the feminine domain". Sad but true.

What a paradox!

:hugs:jess

[Staci G]

It wouldn't kill the magicfor me at all. I would love to go out in a dress and not have to worry about who's gawking or talking. Besides I think they would make heels in a 13 easier to find!:daydreaming:

[Alice Torn]

PD, Oh, the wonders that hose and heels can do to any legs!

[PetiteDuality]

Thanks for your wonderful responses.

Just to clarify my point of view: I'm in the closet, more because of the effect it could cause to my love ones than because of the lack of acceptance by others. Actually, I will probably go overseas for a couple of months and I plan to dress and go out, and I don't care what people over there will think about me, because there is no chance that my family could get hurt.

I also agree that it's a lot about a state of mind. That's why I still trim my legs hair from time to time. It makes me feel feminine and I love that. But when I have a second look to the way I look dressed... it kind of "broke" the state of mind due to a high dose of realism. It's like a very strong fan dissipating the pink fog.

I will give a second chance to the "state of mind", because it's really nice and I kind of miss it. Maybe having forms, a good shave, pads, wigs, makeup, and nice clothes will bring the magic back.

But if it doesn't, I think I will be done with crossdressing.

[Rachel Morley]

If I'm understanding you correctly you're talking about how familiarly would breed, not contempt, but desensitization and indifference - correct?

I kinda, sorta, agree in the sense that my dressing (and I can't believe I'm saying this) is not as "exciting" to me as it used to be. In the beginning I used to literally tremble (yes my hands used to literary shake) with excitement when I was getting dressed because of the expectation of what was about to happen ... I was going to go outside dressed as a woman. Nowadays it's just gives me a warm glow of happiness and contentment. :)

I know this isn't exactly what you meant (at least I don't think it is is) because you talked about people would be able to read us much more easily because a crossdresser would be commonplace, but if it was "normal" to see people crossdressed in public I don't think it would diminish it for me because, even now, when I get read, people pretty much leave me alone. :2c:

[lavistaa62]

The magic is being able to think freely without having to edit myself as I must do constantly during each day. It would be wonderful to not have to pay attention to sports, not to have to watch how I move my wrists or hold my coffee. It would be great to smell nice.

It's not really about the clothes- well it is- but as female it's likely I'd be emulating the few women around me with their staid suits and boring pants- sort of like what I have to wear already!

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Petite

No pain No Gain.
It's the forbidden fruit.
If it was the norm what would be the fun in it.

Orchid

[mylieanna]

i know my legs dont look that sexy when they are shaved until i put some hose on, then i get the true look.

[christinek]

Thanks for your wonderful responses.

Just to clarify my point of view: I'm in the closet, more because of the effect it could cause to my love ones than because of the lack of acceptance by others. Actually, I will probably go overseas for a couple of months and I plan to dress and go out, and I don't care what people over there will think about me, because there is no chance that my family could get hurt.

I also agree that it's a lot about a state of mind. That's why I still trim my legs hair from time to time. It makes me feel feminine and I love that. But when I have a second look to the way I look dressed... it kind of "broke" the state of mind due to a high dose of realism. It's like a very strong fan dissipating the pink fog.

I will give a second chance to the "state of mind", because it's really nice and I kind of miss it. Maybe having forms, a good shave, pads, wigs, makeup, and nice clothes will bring the magic back.

But if it doesn't, I think I will be done with crossdressing.

I think you are missing something big here, Take a picture of yourself sporting those legs and shoes! Now cut out the top half and trove a Cosmo or other typically female magazine and hold your lower torso in heels to those in the magazine and viola. Woops wait I see my legs, and maybe better looking thinner legs. WOW!

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Petite,

I think maybe you are placing way too big an importance on looking perfect. For some of us it just isn't going to happen. But that doesn't mean you can't look feminine and beautiful in women's clothes, it just means finding what you need to do to make yourself feel pretty and be happy with what you have on and just doing that.

[Lorileah]

If you just dress for the thrill, then it would get to be boring. Then you would dress like most women dress, to be comfortable. I doubt that I would ever quit because I like how I look. I can't get tired of myself....who would love me then?

[sissy_tulsa]

For me, shaving is just a part of the bigger picture...

[PetiteDuality]

Petite,

I think maybe you are placing way too big an importance on looking perfect. For some of us it just isn't going to happen. But that doesn't mean you can't look feminine and beautiful in women's clothes, it just means finding what you need to do to make yourself feel pretty and be happy with what you have on and just doing that.

Well, it's not about being perfect. Girls' legs look wonderful, even if they are skinny or fat. Because they are feminine.

I have lean legs, too defined for a woman. With too many angles.


If you just dress for the thrill, then it would get to be boring. Then you would dress like most women dress, to be comfortable. I doubt that I would ever quit because I like how I look. I can't get tired of myself....who would love me then?


It's not only for the thrill (although its part of it), but it's about wanting to look and feel as a woman. If the image does not match the feeling, there is sort os a short circuit :sad:



i know my legs dont look that sexy when they are shaved until i put some hose on, then i get the true look.

Actually, my legs look a bit more feminine without hose. I love how my skin looks. The hose seems to accentuate the muscle definition, I'm not sure why. I've even tried with compression tights.

Maybe I'm just being too picky :D

[KimberlyJo]

Sometimes as CDs we express our desire that men wearing women clothes would be more normal and accepted by society.

But the other day I was thinking about this, and I think it would not be that great.

...

If we get used to see too many guys in women clothes, then we would not be as different as the rest of the guys, nor more similar to the gals. It would not be "special". People would be able to read us much more easily (now the silhouette of a woman would require a second glance), and they would be more trained to differentiate us from the girls.

I think that the general acceptance would kill the magic...

I've thought about this, albeit in a somewhat different light then you shed on it.

In some ways I think it would be good for society. It might curb the oogling and objectifying of women that so many GGs complain about. I think today's man considers it his right to size up any given woman in his field of view. If one couldn't be sure if that fine female form belonged to a woman or a man, one might be a little more hesitant in giving it more than a passing glance.

Where is it written that you HAVE to immediately know and be able to categorize someone based on gender or sex? What relevance does this really have? Are we supposed to treat and think differently of people based on their outward appearances? We do, but I don't believe we are supposed to.

It sounds to me that you enjoy the perception that CDing is deviant, if CDing becomes socially acceptable, then you'll just have to find a new way to be deviant. Perhaps you could try "mousing". (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK92NYwBMts)

This whole idea of gender binary really needs to go away imo.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Well, it's not about being perfect. Girls' legs look wonderful, even if they are skinny or fat. Because they are feminine.

I have lean legs, too defined for a woman. With too many angles.



See, again, I think this might just be in your head. You don't think of your legs as feminine because you view them as your own legs. You're used to them being shaved now so yes, some of that thrill is gone because you're used to it, but it doesn't mean your legs are actually unshapely.

In fact one of the most common things I've heard from women since coming out is how jealous they are of men's legs. Often when I've shown a GG I know pictures of myself or other CDs dressed, they'll comment that "It's so unfair, men have such great legs." Seriously, go take a peek at the pictures section of this very website. While there are various degrees of success on other fronts, I think one thing that is a pretty constant is that everyone has amazing legs.

Take a picture of your legs in some heels and show them to us, I bet you will get a ton of compliments.

[PetiteDuality]

In some ways I think it would be good for society. It might curb the oogling and objectifying of women that so many GGs complain about. I think today's man considers it his right to size up any given woman in his field of view. If one couldn't be sure if that fine female form belonged to a woman or a man, one might be a little more hesitant in giving it more than a passing glance.


I agree. It would be a good outcome


Where is it written that you HAVE to immediately know and be able to categorize someone based on gender or sex? What relevance does this really have? Are we supposed to treat and think differently of people based on their outward appearances? We do, but I don't believe we are supposed to.


It's not written and I'm not saying so. I'm just saying that it makes easier to pass. As many people here says if threads about passing, if people see long hair, dress, makeup, etc, they will assume "woman". I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, it's just the way it is.



It sounds to me that you enjoy the perception that CDing is deviant, if CDing becomes socially acceptable, then you'll just have to find a new way to be deviant. Perhaps you could try "mousing".

Totally wrong. I don't enjoy the perception of deviance. I"m just saying that we do things to look more feminine. If these things are not feminine any more, what would be the point.

By the way, the "mousing link doesn't work.



See, again, I think this might just be in your head. You don't think of your legs as feminine because you view them as your own legs. You're used to them being shaved now so yes, some of that thrill is gone because you're used to it, but it doesn't mean your legs are actually unshapely.

In fact one of the most common things I've heard from women since coming out is how jealous they are of men's legs. Often when I've shown a GG I know pictures of myself or other CDs dressed, they'll comment that "It's so unfair, men have such great legs." Seriously, go take a peek at the pictures section of this very website. While there are various degrees of success on other fronts, I think one thing that is a pretty constant is that everyone has amazing legs.

Take a picture of your legs in some heels and show them to us, I bet you will get a ton of compliments.

Actually that's a good idea. Next time I shave I will upload some pics.

[Joanne f]

It all depends on why you CD in the fist place , i CD because i enjoy the things i wear and not to be different so it would be helpful to me if men wearing dress`s was accepted as normal , but i am sure for a lot it would spoil the thrill that they seek.

[KimberlyJo]

Totally wrong. I don't enjoy the perception of deviance. I"m just saying that we do things to look more feminine. If these things are not feminine any more, what would be the point.

By the way, the "mousing link doesn't work.


I'm not saying that feminine and masculine should not exist, I am saying that the binary should not exist. In other words you are either this or that and your gender should reflect your sex, but this isn't true. There are no absolutes, not really, but society says there must be. The POINT is expressing what you feel inside.

The mousing link works now.:o

and yeah, I think you're being too picky :)

You're not a woman, you don't have a woman's body, you have your body, which is likely decidedly male. You can mask some aspects of your maleness but probably not all of them. We ALL have things about our male form that we don't like when we are dressed enfemme I'm sure. For instance, my face is too angular, my nose is too big, my hands and feet are too big and too veiny and my adam's apple sticks waaaay out...oh and my shoulders are too wide. But you know what? It doesn't matter, not really. Because when I put on the clothes and I do my makeup and my hair, it feels great! Sure I don't look 100% female, but I'm not 100% female...I'm somewhere in the middle and that's ok too.

[minalost]

It all depends on why you CD in the fist place , i CD because i enjoy the things i wear and not to be different so it would be helpful to me if men wearing dress`s was accepted as normal , but i am sure for a lot it would spoil the thrill that they seek.

I boils down to why you dress. Do you just like feminine clothing, or is it a need to be accepted AS feminine. If men in skirts was socially acceptable then you'd just be a guy in a skirt.

Also, if men and women all dressed the same, or had the same choices in clothing then we wouldn't be crossdressers.

Just some thoughts...

[Nicole Erin]

I have had snide comments about me being TG.

However, never has anyone insulted me over my shaved legs. I have had them shaved 10 years or so. Once in a while people ask about it and I will just say I don't like body hair.

YOu soon get to the point where you don't even think about your legs being shaved. It takes a couple days to get to that point.

[PetiteDuality]

I'm not saying that feminine and masculine should not exist, I am saying that the binary should not exist. In other words you are either this or that and your gender should reflect your sex, but this isn't true. There are no absolutes, not really, but society says there must be. The POINT is expressing what you feel inside.

The mousing link works now.:o

and yeah, I think you're being too picky :)

You're not a woman, you don't have a woman's body, you have your body, which is likely decidedly male. You can mask some aspects of your maleness but probably not all of them. We ALL have things about our male form that we don't like when we are dressed enfemme I'm sure. For instance, my face is too angular, my nose is too big, my hands and feet are too big and too veiny and my adam's apple sticks waaaay out...oh and my shoulders are too wide. But you know what? It doesn't matter, not really. Because when I put on the clothes and I do my makeup and my hair, it feels great! Sure I don't look 100% female, but I'm not 100% female...I'm somewhere in the middle and that's ok too.

You look gorgeous from your avatar picture. If you complain, then I guess you are kind of picky too, because your results are much better than mine!

I've got to give a try to mousing... But I think that it would be less understood than crossdressing

I also wish the binary wouldn't exist.


I have had snide comments about me being TG.

However, never has anyone insulted me over my shaved legs. I have had them shaved 10 years or so. Once in a while people ask about it and I will just say I don't like body hair.

YOu soon get to the point where you don't even think about your legs being shaved. It takes a couple days to get to that point.


I can also go away with my shaved legs because of sports. But I still notice my shaved legs after two days!!! I love the feel, and I can't just overlook at it.



I boils down to why you dress. Do you just like feminine clothing, or is it a need to be accepted AS feminine. If men in skirts was socially acceptable then you'd just be a guy in a skirt.

Also, if men and women all dressed the same, or had the same choices in clothing then we wouldn't be crossdressers.

Just some thoughts...

Exactly. It wouldn't be crossdressing. Maybe I'd just be a guy more into fashion... Although giving it a second thought it wouldn't be that bad...

[LeslieSD]

I agree with PetiteDuality.

When something is no longer associated with feminity, you will no longer use it to express your feminity. Period.

Same way, when dress was no longer associated with female (so it is socially acceptable that everyone can wear a dress), we would not discuss on the CD board what dress to wear. We would be talking about other things, maybe painted nails or some other things that distinguish male and female.

Or you can drop by in the FTM board here and see if they write much about "I wore a pair of jeans to meet my friends today".

[DonnaT]

I have an innate need to dress. So it wouldn't disappoint me if men wearing skirts became the norm, it would make me happier.

[Kellie Day]

You know you've really grasped who you are when you realise there's no magic to it--no special message or meaning based on anything you wear: it's just clothes, and clothes do not make the person but rather express the person who puts them on.

I think many of us think there's some kind of "line" we daren't cross, at least in public, and hone that line into microtome samples of length of biker shorts or other esoterica.

Heck with that! Most GGs just put on whatever they want and sally forth, and there's no reason Sallie Forth (not a bad femme name!) shouldn't do the same.

The real liberation is when you discover that despite how much you may fret, almost nobody notices and even fewer people care. I haven't tried the experiment myself, but I expect that if you show up in some wildly unexpected outfit (say, a bridesmaid's dress) in a totally inappropriate venue (say, Home Depot), the vast majority of people will just smile or look at other things like bargain toilet seats.

You think they're looking at you, but to them you're a few fleeting pixels in the endless movie of life.

Ain't life grand? Aren't we lucky to be able to live it to the full in this marvellous century where the only constraint upon our freedom is our willingness to assert it?

[NoraTV]

Very well said, Karen.


I could care less who accepts me.... I accept me and that's all that counts....