Do we "get it"?

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

So this thread is sort of a follow-up to my "dressed in women's clothes or dressed as a woman" (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125025) thread, and also a follow up to HappyWife's "Can I relate after all" thread. In the responses to her amazing, from the heart post that we all adored, there were a lot of people who said "Wow, you really get it," and they're right, I think she really does to and I wish more people could see it the way she does.

Before I begin typing out my thoughts in this sure-to be controversial topic, I will state that I know I am biased towards my own personal style of dressing, so I want to be clear that in no way am I trying to say that there is any right or wrong way to do this, and that I know many of you think I am wrong for dressing the way I am. The purpose of this thread, like my "poll" thread, is because I am fascinated by the motivations behind what we do and why we do it the way we do it.

One of the key points of HappyWife's post was how she can relate to us because she realized that she actually does express the masculine side of her personality on a regular basis. The responses were unanimously positive and "you get it!" types because she sees how we feel as men who express our feminine side. Then Leigh58 posted her positive response and she raised the issue of false breasts as an example of how it's not exactly the same, and that made me think.. hmm, maybe HappyWife "gets it" but.. do we?

So I posted my thread "dressed in/as" thread to see what the common response was. There was sort of a mix, some people said they wanted to dress to present as women, and some people said they just loved the feminine clothes. The ladies who responded that they want to be or present as women, because it matches how they feel inside, are not really the focus of my thoughts here. I was more interested in the folks for whom the answer was about the feminine clothes and not the female image. Those of us closer to the "Crossdresser" end of the transgender spectrum than at the "transexual" end. More on that later.

One common thing was a response that I see in other threads though, of some variance on "I just want to dress as feminine as possible." This is where I think M2F crossdressers break off from women like HappyWife. GGs do have a lot more freedom to be masculine and dress in guy-style clothes and we often use that as a rallying cry as to why it's not fair that we can't do the same in reverse. But as Leigh58 pointed out, the big difference is, women dress masculinely as women, yet the vast majority of people, including on this board whose very purpose is the support of crossdressing, seem to insist that if men want to dress feminine, they have to attempt present as female. Here's a sampling of some of the responses from my poll thread: (The italics are just to differentiate between two thoughts, not to emphasize ones over others)


"Dressed as a woman I think is the same as being dressed in womens clothing. right?" "dressed as a woman because I dress in womans clothing?" "I don't go through all the effort just so I can be a dude in a dress." "For me, dressing as a woman so that I can wear the clothes I like."

Why is that even though we see women every single day of our lives openly sliding back and forth on the masculine/feminine scale, and even use this as a core of our argument for acceptance, we seem to not feel that we can do this same thing, as men? Why do we immediately leap to well, if I'm going to wear feminine clothes I have to dress as a woman? By doing so are we not just continuing to perpetuate the very sterotypes that force us to the fringes of society to begin with?

Take a peek at the F2M section on this very site. For one thing, it is significantly less populated than this part, and the section is made up entirely of F2Ms who are more TG and TS, and not crossdressers. This isn't just my observation, Ze said it too:


For whatever reason, most FtMs are TG or TS, not CD. I honestly don't know if the reasoning for this is biological or cultural. But there are very few FtM CDers, from what I know, and I personally have never knowingly come across one here.

My personal theory for this is that there aren't a lot of women CDs because every woman is a woman CD, thus no woman is a woman CD. Women incorporate their masculine styles into their wardrobe, into who they are. They don't compartmentalize it into a separate persona that they pull out of a box when they want to "feel masculine." They don't say "I shove a sock down my pants because I want to feel as masculine as possible." Sure, things like shoulder padded dresses and blouses exist, and boyfriend style trousers but it is all things meant to be worn as women, presenting as women.

Yet somehow we have for the most part convinced ourselves that we can't do the same thing as men. That it's not ok for a guy to slide along the spectrum. A girl can forego makeup and toss on a sports jersey and be one of the guys, but a guy can't toss on some makeup and a fun dress and be one of the girls. Yes, a lot of this is social programming, but don't we help reinforce that programming when we say "Oh I have to present as female if I want to do these feminine things!"?

Again, the intention of this post is not "I crossdress right and you crossdress wrong!" and it's not to tell you that you should dress like I do. The idea is more, if you identify as a m2f crossdresser, and you say that your motivations for doing so is that you like the clothes, as opposed to wanting to be or feel like or appear as a woman, then why is it so important for you to present a female image, aside from the convenience argument, that being en femme gives you a degree of anonymity that allows you to dress the way you please?

[Brandi Wyne]

Well, that's a long and windy intro to the topic but for me it's actually a mood/circumstance thing. Most of the time when I do dress, I dress to present as a woman. However, when I can't do that, I still enjoy wearing what I can of womens' things. At work I cannot present as a woman so I will dress under and keep close to feminine clothes and be ever anxious for my next time to dress and present as a woman. The mood will vary with my circumstances and sometimes my mood will help determine just how much I will dress, under the circumstances.

[EnglishRose]

I'm one hell of a lazy crossdresser. It's a bit of a genderfeck because I am reasonably hirsute and I don't hide that whatsoever when dressed. Guess what? I don't go out.

However. I don't yet know why I do this either. But the breasts are very important to me and I don't feel right just in a dress or what-have-you. I need to fill it out, and not just for sizing's sake.

Going back to the lazy cd thing though, I'd like some, but don't have any forms. I use towels folded neatly into roundish shapes, and let the bra do the rest.

I guess that being in my mid-thirties I'm just starting to come to terms with what my dressing means to me, who I am and my gender identity. God I need to see a therapist :D

[Joanne f]

Fist of all before i contradict myself i would just like to say that there is a big safety issue in wanting to as most would say" Pass or blend in" but i will not dwell on that as we all know that part.
We also know that there are many reasons why people cross dress and i know that you are not looking for that .
I have often wondered when someone says " i am just being me" how they can really say that when they do not have long hair and large breasts, so in theory to be themselves they should just put on the clothes and go out .
Now i am going to contradict myself (someone has to):heehee: yet the wigs and breast forms are really sold for females to change the look of themselves , so is it status quo , by doing it maybe they are being themselves and are not hiding there self.( in other words i had just as well not wrote that ):devil:

[JamieOH]

i will post again at home, but for now, ill just say, i get it. I dress in womens clothes like you, except i dont need forms, hehe, 38b natural. but i wear no makeup or wig. though sometimes i want to

[HappyWife42]

Ryan, your outlook reminds me of my husband. For him it is not so much who he is trying to present as trying to dress to suit his mood and comfort level. I asked him though, why not just wear silky pj's made for men? He replied it just isn't the same. Something about the female clothing, emulating the female persona, is what he needs when he CDs. He does not start out with the thought that "I am going to make myself a woman," but for some reason, what he needs is the feminine experience, through clothing, music, etc. It is what he reaches for naturally. As he said to me, "The dots all connect somehow in my head, even if you can't understand it. It's not just about the clothes, but also about the experience, the sensitivity..the empathy, and ability to cry, the woman's outlook." Dressing as a female seems to help, in one way or another, to access the woman within. He said it is akin to when you go on vacation. You go as far away as possible and do things that are as different as possible because it helps you to feel the experience more fully. I have a very feminine cousin who always wears skirts and makeup and is obsessed with Barbie dolls. It's just the things she has to do, and reaches for, to feel like herself. (Me, I would rather switch my Barbies' heads and play kickball with my Cabbage Patch Kids!)
So, I guess it's more a matter of comfort and what you reach for naturally, and if the end result looks like a woman, well, it's not because that was the goal, but rather, the end result of the choices you made naturally to feel "right."
I do think that not all CDers have the same experience. For my husband, a silky pair of PJ bottoms and a pink tank top and a clean shave are all he needs to feel "right." Others may feel more is needed, and in your case, it appears that a little less is needed.
Your end result is a man in a skirt with a few feminine touches. My husband's result is a man in super feminine women's clothing, maybe a little bit of makeup or a bra, depending on the mood. Some of the other CDers here have results that includes forms, skirts, wigs and makeup.. The commonality here is that you are all doing what you need to to feel "right."

[Genifer Teal]

You ask a deep question. Here is a simple yet thought provoking answer.

When I see a beautiful woman, I want to be her, not just wear her clothes.

Gen

[Kate Simmons]

For myself it's neither really. It's more a blending and balancing of the yin/yang energies and integrating them into my overall self.:)

[DonnaT]

We all have our likes and dislikes.

Some people like coffee, I don't.

Some, like me, won't wear fem jeans, it has to be a skirt. Others are fine either way. It's feeling of "rightness" I reckon.

I am one who can be fine in just a skirt, yet at times feel the need to go fully enfemme. Depends on the mood, which is tied to some deep seated need.

My wife asked me once why the need for the wig and makeup, and I told her I'd be fine in just a skirt. Her immediate response was, "Not with me you won't." Around the house, however, she prefers I don't wear the wig and makeup.

[sherri52]

I dress because I want to. I don't usually wear a wig because I have long hair. I do wear forms and when a customer comes in my store I take the forms out before they see (hopefully). Today I wore a womens top and a jumper. The legs were covered by womens jeans and they covered the skirt of the jumper. With or without forms I like to dress. The forms just make a better presentation.

[SusieK]

why not just wear silky pj's made for men?

To follow up on the idea raised by HappyWife42. If it became socially acceptable for men's clothes to be prettier, then what would us CDs do?

There are websites that sell "panties for men" which have frilly and silky underwear, but designed for a male anatomy. There have also been attempts to introduce official man skirts, and tights for men. In the 1970's fashion was very flowery, frilly and androgynous.

I am very happy to be and remain a male who crossdresses. But it is very important that they are women's clothes. To have specially designed and marketed clothes for men that happen to be in the style of current women's clothes would completely miss the point as far as I'm concerned.

Ultimately, it's what it triggers in your brain. Day-to-day as a man I have little interest in my clothes, and just get on with my day. I assume the same is true of GGs except that the choice of clothes is wider. However, when I crossdress, then that is pretty much the entire point of any subsequent activity. I don't get dressed and then watch TV, I watch TV 'dressed', the content of the TV program is almost irrelevant, as if it's interesting then I will get distracted from being dressed.

[Kendra Amaya]

The level I dress up varies on the situation. When I go out to the club it's almost always a dress or skirt full makeup and usually hair falls (I'm more of a goth than anything else) and forms. At work right now I stick to blouses and skinny jeans with flats and usually some colorful stockings. I do wear eye makeup at work but nothing beyond that yet and no forms at work yet either. I've only just recently started dressing at work, within the past 3 weeks so I'm getting my co-workers used to me dressed up in stages, adding something new each week. Going out shopping or to the movies, etc. I will usually go fully dressed as well, depending on how long I plan to be out of the house to make it worth all the time it takes to get ready.

[AnnaBMarie]

For those of us that remember the bell curve in statistics you find that there are a few representatives on the "tails" of the curve, and a large cluster in the middle. That seems to fit what I see on this website. There are a few that can be satisfied with wearing some silky underwear once in while, and others that are only fulfilled with complete transformation all the time. Most of us seem to be somewhere in the middle.

What I find astonishing are the similarities in our stories. So many of them fit the feelings I have, both physical and emotional, it's scary. I think the important thing to remember is that we all fit into the spectrum from one end to the other. We are part of the whole regardless of which end of the curve we are on.

It's a blessing to have so many supportive and caring people out there that we'll never meet, other than on these pages.

[lingerieLiz]

"few representatives on the "tails" of the curve, and a large cluster in the middle"

Why do we assume that both desires are related? There is no reason to assume that they have a relationship. The feeling of BEING a woman does not cause someone to wear women's clothes, and because you wear women's clothes does not require you to want to be a woman. Both can intersect but don't have too.

I've known women who wear men's clothes 99% of the time and are not lesbians. It is much easier for a woman to adopt men's lifestyles because society accepts it. I'm perfectly happy to wear women's clothes and present as a male. The problem is that the world considers it odd and a social stigma. I won't bore everyone with the historical reasons that this occurs. While I do wear women's clothes including a bra much of the time and am sure that people know it, most of the time I present as just my easy going self.

Another problem that men have is that they draw attention more than women when they CD. When walking through a mall if we see a woman dressed as a man it is old news, but "a man?" now that is news. The difference between acceptance in the 60s to today is astounding. As we move from men doing hard work and women as homemakers to knowledge work and partners we will see more blending of roles and permissable life styles.

[Satrana]

Yet somehow we have for the most part convinced ourselves that we can't do the same thing as men. That it's not ok for a guy to slide along the spectrum. A girl can forego makeup and toss on a sports jersey and be one of the guys, but a guy can't toss on some makeup and a fun dress and be one of the girls. Yes, a lot of this is social programming, but don't we help reinforce that programming when we say "Oh I have to present as female if I want to do these feminine things!"?

Well thought out and spot on. CDs reinforce the idea that men cannot be feminine without emulating a woman in the process. This is why the obvious correlation with tomboy behavior is obscured to both CDs and society.

To go back in history for a second. Understand that women's gender integration did not happen naturally. Women were stuck in the same rigid stereotypes as men are currently in until the advent of modern feminism in the 1960s. People think the feminist movement was about equal rights but if you examine what the feminists were actually doing it was mostly focused on social engineering. They successfully convinced women that the traditional gender role was subservient to men and that to compete with men, women had to become masculine. Women exhibiting masculine behavior and partaking in masculine work roles and past times was deliberately promoted and championed as the new role model. Women who wanted to stick to the traditional role model were chastised for betraying womanhood.

The point is there was no masculinist movement to allow men to freely access women's roles and privileges. Both men and women were never made aware that the "masculine man" was not a natural state of being, that it is a contrived and restrictive role that many men would rather not follow. And women are still conditioned to dismiss feminine men as worthy partners believing incorrectly that masculinity was the natural state men desired to be and which in turn made women feel feminine themselves while they abandoned the traditional feminine role.

Being true to yourself and abandoning the emulation fantasy is a brave thing to do as you are faced with reconciling your physical sex and preferred gender expression. You no longer have a safety screen to hide behind. It means coming to terms with the feelings of guilt and low self-esteem as a man who dresses.

Is it worth it? I say yes, I am far more connected with myself and others understanding I am a tomgirl rather than being a CDer focused on perfecting my emulation. My breast forms mostly gather dust now, only occasionally coming out when I want to have fun with presenting as a woman. But that is all it is now - a fun make-believe scenario. It no longer defines who I am.


I don't get dressed and then watch TV, I watch TV 'dressed', the content of the TV program is almost irrelevant, as if it's interesting then I will get distracted from being dressed. This is a good description of how I used to be. The entire focus is on experiencing life "as a woman" except that in reality I was not experiencing life at all since my surroundings were irrelevant. The only thing that mattered was The Experience. Thank goodness I was single at that time or I would have neglected my partner without a moment's thought.

I was hitting a high but was letting life pass me by. It took years but I finally realize it was pointless goal and was more an addition than anything else.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Thanks so much to everyone for your responses so far, they've been very interesting! I was worried this was going to get people angry but everyone who has responded seems to really have some points of view on my ramblings.

I guess for me the point wasn't so much "Don't you agree that you should all dress like me?!" and more, why do you think it is that men who identify as wanting to wear feminine clothes also feel like they need to dress as women to do it. As others have said in this and other threads, it just "feels right" for some.

I've said this before and it sort of parrots other things in this thread, but I think the big reason why so many of us, as adults, feel compelled to dress as women, is because when we were little it was so beaten into us that it was wrong for boys to behave this way, whether literally by overbearing parents, or figuratively by socialization. I've said in another thread that I credit discovering "men in skirts" websites during my pre-teen and teen years with helping me develop my own style and freedom of dress attitude, but also I remember being blown away the first time I saw Eddie Izzard's "Dress to Kill" on HBO and saw how great a guy could look blending feminine and masculine together. Both of these things hit me while I was still in my developmental years, but even now I still feel the occasional pull from my childhood telling me "But you're a boy! boys don't wear makeup! boys don't wear skirts!" Well, this boy does.

[Megan_Okana]

you make a lot of sense and raise a lot of good points. The compartmentalized thing about how women just incorporate their masculine portions of their personality into their everyday self. Ive had this debate with a GG before, she didn't know Im a CD. My points to her was, If a woman wants to do manly things like If she wants to be a pilot or a firefighter, its celebrated. Yeah, they take a lot of flack from their coworkers making it harder but society as a whole encourages it. Hell, some times it makes them sexier. The same is not not the same for a man. Look how much crap a male nurse gets. while its not anger expressed for the male nurse, its a disapproval. By doing something that is "meant" for women he is now less of a man and by choosing to do something that is less then manly he is now a lesser person.

Its this societal disapproval that a lot of us fear. Thats why we have compartmentalized our feminine selves. Most of us (im assuming) want to present as female because that, for the most part its the only part of society that is "allowed" to be feminine.

After reading this I have come to realize that Im probably a lot closer to the Trans end of the spectrum then I am to the pure CD end

[Jennifer_Ph]

I have no intention of presenting as female again. I've had a few professional makeovers, and it was fun and all, but it doesn't feel right. When I look in the mirror and see the boobs and the wig, well, that just isn't ME.

But what I love to do is wear skirts, hose, and heels. And sometimes dresses, but not often. I'm happier as Mike in a skirt than I am as Jennifer all dressed up.

I am not comfortable presenting as a woman, and I don't think I ever will be. But I'll wear pantyhose for the rest of my life - and do so in guy mode with shorts every day weather permitting. I haven't ventured out as a guy in a skirt or a guy in heels yet, but I may.

The first post said something like women can wear mens clothes and get away with it - but they aren't presenting male, they're presenting female. And that's me. I'm completely happy wearing womens clothes presenting male - cuz I am after all, a guy. I don't fit the 'woman trapped in a mans body' mold.

If I could have the world as I wanted it I'd wish that clothing had no gender relations. Well, other than the bra and the jock strap I don't think any clothing really has a specific gender.

[melissacd]

Ryan,

I do understand and to a large degree live a lifestyle that is very fluid in the nature of how I dress. I go from femme male to female presentation, but I have completely let go of the male-male look because that is just not me. So in the moments when I am in my pseudo male mode I wear female pants, tops, earrings, bracelets, necklaces, have my long hair tied back. I wear male shoes, I do not wear makeup and I do not wear skirts and dresses, I do not wear forms, I do not wear nail polish. Those things are reserved for the female expression only.

Now that being said bit by bit I am blurring that line more and more. I have expressed that I want to live full time femme and yet I still do not cross that line and I am not sure yet why. I go in this almost femme way to work and they accept that I am a strange dresser. To some extent I think that I would prefer to continue to evolve this pseudo male mode to include makeup, nail polish, skirts and dresses and just leave out breast forms, hip pads or tucking. It appeals to me because it means that I am still expressing my feminine side and yet I am truly not trying to be a female (which in effect was not really what I was trying for anyway).

The reason that I use forms and take it that extra step is manyfold. First, to make me look more female and reduce the possible confrontation level, second to conform to what cross dressers do (a bad reason), third because those times when I do dress very femme but not female my girlfriend says to me "if you are going to cross dress do it properly". Now the third reason is a very odd one. My girlfriend likes to see my male mode but when I get too femme looking she prefers that I complete the illusion as not doing so makes her uncomfortable with me out in public.

Now on the personal front, at home I always wear a dress or skirt and top and I have no issue answering the door (dressed that way) when someone calls. The neighbors all know about me and have no issue with it, they still drop by and say hello, they still greet me at the market. They are very cool people.

So the net net is that I would be happy to dress femme without the addition of padding or tucking and being completely honest that I am a male and then I can truly make the argument that I am doing no more than any women currently does.

So my question then becomes - and this is based on the experience of my girlfriend ----


How many spouses/girlfriend would be comfortable with their husband/boyfriend dressing femme but not trying to sound femme, not using forms of any type, growing their hair long or just leaving it short but not using a wig, leaving their mustache or beard intact of they have one? I am curious to see how the accepting spouses/girlfriends would feel about that.

Melissa

[HappyWife42]

Well thought out and spot on. CDs reinforce the idea that men cannot be feminine without emulating a woman in the process. This is why the obvious correlation with tomboy behavior is obscured to both CDs and society.

The point is there was no masculinist movement
to allow men to freely access women's roles and privileges. Both men and women were never made aware that the "masculine man" was not a natural state of being, that it is a contrived and restrictive role that many men would rather not follow. And women are still conditioned to dismiss feminine men as worthy partners believing incorrectly that masculinity was the natural state men desired to be and which in turn made women feel feminine themselves while they abandoned the traditional feminine role.

Being true to yourself and abandoning the emulation fantasy is a brave thing to do as you are faced with reconciling your physical sex and preferred gender expression. You no longer have a safety screen to hide behind. It means coming to terms with the feelings of guilt and low self-esteem as a man who dresses.

Is it worth it? I say yes, I am far more connected with myself and others understanding I am a tomgirl rather than being a CDer focused on perfecting my emulation. My breast forms mostly gather dust now, only occasionally coming out when I want to have fun with presenting as a woman. But that is all it is now - a fun make-believe scenario. It no longer defines who I am.

I am working on getting my husband more comfortable with expressing his feminine side in everyday life, regardless of what he is wearing.

[TGMarla]

I think I pretty much agree with this whole sentiment. Otherwise, why bother with wigs, hip enhancement, and breastforms? When I dress, I enjoy the transformation, and getting to live the feminine experience as a woman would, or at least as close to actual womanhood as I can get as a man. If I'm not using all the prosthetics, I feel incomplete when I dress.

So to your point, you are correct that I'm not "just" a crossdresser. What I do can be better described as "female emulation", and I approach it from more of a transgendered, or even somewhat transexual, mindset. Thus, it isn't really crossdressing, if I'm wearing these clothes as a woman. To me, it's way more than just the clothes. So I understand just what you're getting at here, and I tend to agree with you.

[kimdl93]

I agree with the idea of being able to express one's femininity in everyday life - regardless of one's attire. But at the same time, I find it very fullfilling to dress and live as a woman, and clothing for me is an rewarding part of being feminine. Yes, women can wear men's clothes and still be feminine...but they can also enjoy getting dressed up.

[sherri]

As someone who doesn't place much stock in passing, I've asked myself more than once why I want to wear women's clothes/makeup/etc at all? Why not go for the Adam Lambert look, or the ojo boys of Japan? For that matter, why adopt "a look" at all? Is the full-blown presentation as a woman even an accurate depiction of how I feel?

Ironically, on one level the answer lies in appropriating cultural conventions from the same culture that for the most part despises my affectation that I adopt in order to project my unconventional sense of gender. It isn't enough to just be me, I need to communicate "me" to the world through my appearance. Since I'm not one who hates her genitalia and wishes I'd been born a woman, my choices may not be an entirely accurate message, but it does get the point across and in a way forces people to interact with me on my terms (if they choose to interact with me at all).

But on another level there's something very visceral and fundamental about dressing, and dressing "all the way". After all, why shouldn't a guy choose to be pretty if he wants? It feels wonderful. And it's always such a relief to escape the drab world I have to inhabit most of the time, the drab me that is really more fake than the gurl me.

An interesting side note: I wore large breastforms for several years, but when I resumed dressing and going out after a long period of inactivity, I decided that forms were just too artificial. To me, the clothes and makeup etc felt right, but even tho I enjoyed wearing them, the breasts felt fake. So I quit wearing them and I actually liked the way I felt and looked without them. And I think some people in the GLBT community sort of reacted favorably to that look, but over time enough people -- mostly other TGs but some gays too -- pressured me to wear breasts that I finally gave in, although I wear smaller ones now.

[docrobbysherry]

:eek:
The reason MOST of us dress, or STARTED dressing, anyway, is that we find, or found it erotic and sexually exciting! :o

For me, the more Sherry looks like a real female, the more exciting dressing up is!:D

U can debate the psycological and societal reasons why that is, but I believe it to be a fact!:brolleyes:

Do GGs get the same "excitement" from putting on a man's 3 piece suit? I DOUBT IT!

That being said, would I occasionally care to throw on some nylons, heels, a skirt and wig when I go out sometime? Of course! But, it's NOT worth the repercussions considering how r society feels about CDs!:Angry3:

I STRONGLY support and respect ANY male who wears ANY women's things out in public!
U GO, GIRL/GUY!:thumbsup::heehee:

[JamieOH]

Just a Question?

How many men could accept a wife who wanted to grow a beard, leg hair and dress like a Lumberjack ?

She also want her husband to accept her for the Lumberjack she is and he should not feel threatened because she wants your help creating her full beard , increasing her lean muscle mass and learning how to be " manlike".

She is also very interested in faux garments that will give her a body builder physique under clothes.

Above all she knows you will accept her crossdressing, not be embarassed by it and she wants you to share it with your friends and family because this is the way she is and she knows you love her.

Yes.. actually.. When I said I do, I meant that I will through sickness health better or worse.. and we've had our share of all of the above.. I almost lost her 3 times... But, I myself love HER, all of her. Funny because she mentioned she would like to cut her hair short.. and asked if I would mind.. I told her to do what made HER comfortable and happy, and not to worry what others might think.. Easy coming from me.. She said so wouldnt wouldnt mind if people thought I looked like a Butch lesbian? I said if you want to cut your hair short, dye it colors, I wouldnt mind.. You want to shave it all off, go for it.. I dont care if you want to look like a man.. Go for it.. I love you no matter what... And I mean it..

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I very much disagree that most of us started dressing for sexual reasons. I first wanted to wear "girls clothes" when I was a little kid, with memories as early as pre-school of wanting to play dressup and feel pretty. Sex hadn't even entered the picture yet. I think it's the repression of those desires that leads to later fetishizing and sexualizing.

But this isn't a discussion of why we started dressing. So far the responses have been interesting to read, keep them up!

[melissacd]

I know that I have already responded to this thread once but this is one of the more interesting threads that I have seen in a long time because it gets to the heart of the matter for me.

As was pointed out, my biology, my male physiology, has never been an issue for me, I just want to dress in girls things, enjoy lingerie, enjoy hosiery, enjoy the styles, the patterns, the colors, the expressiveness, the shoes, the coats, the whole joyful creativity and variety of it all. Quite plainly put, women's things are so much more interesting to me than men's things and always have been. This has never been for me an issue of being in the wrong body - I like the body that I have. It has always for me been about being in the wrong outfits and having to express myself in this world in a way that I do not want to. I like being able to enjoy being in a dress, wearing make up, wearing nylons, wearing high heels, painting my nails and so on. I like adorning my house with feminine things, I like a girlie bedroom, lacey curtains, pinks, my linens and bath towels and so many things that guys are not supposed to like.

To me it is a lifestyle, a way of expressing and existing that makes me feel good about myself and the world around me in a way that driving a truck or playing hockey or being a tough guy never could.

To me this is so much more than dressing but so little about my biological sex and it is certainly not about fetishism or sexuality.

The interesting thing is that I have in the past given pause to the possibility of hormones and surgery to become more female like not because I ever wanted this but because at a certain point I was worried that that would be my only choice to live a life, to fit in. I have found with my getting out into public and getting more comfortable with being in a femme mode that in fact there are other choices that can be just as successful without going to those other expensive and painful and irreversible changes.


Melissa

[JamieOH]

I too started dressing at an early age, before I even thought about sexual anything... I stole one of my sisters nightgowns, and wore it every night.. and would sneak into her room and put on her school uniform jumpers and blouse/skirts.. I never had a sexual feeling with it, I just knew it felt right... I was me... I felt wonderful and happy... That is all I know...

[Satrana]

Years ago when I dressed in front of my mirror, I used to hate the part when I was half transformed. The clothes were on but the wig, makeup, jewelry etc were missing. At this point I could still recognize myself as a man in a dress. The word that would enter my mind was "pervert!" and I would feel disgusted with myself. I used to rush to finish my transformation so I could see a woman in the mirror rather than my male self.

I believe this is one of the principal reasons why CDs want to go the whole way. The man in a dress look just feels wrong and it is hard to shake off this conditioning.

The second reason for emulation is that it fulfills our elaborate fantasies we have conjured up over the years where we imagine we actually become a real woman. We want to re-enact the idea that we can be transformed into a sexy, desirable female. This complete transformation is also necessary for AGP where CDs sexually respond to the female image in the mirror.

Thirdly CDs like emulation because it becomes a ritual for discarding our male burdens and gaining entry to female privileges. It becomes our version of stepping through the looking glass into an alternative reality where we become a different person by occupying the female social role and so people relate to us differently. Just look at the huge success of role playing games on computers to see how attractive this idea is. CDs get to play this game in the flesh so to speak.

To Doc -although sexuality plays a major part in the CDing community, remember most CDs discovered their behavior several years before puberty. So while AGP is a common activity for many, it is not the root cause for CDs who began as young boys.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

The second reason for emulation is that it fulfills our elaborate fantasies we have conjured up over the years where we imagine we actually become a real woman. We want to re-enact the idea that we can be transformed into a sexy, desirable female.

But that's sort of the heart at what I'm getting at. At what point does this stop being simply crossdressing and instead land somewhere further down the TG spectrum?



Thirdly CDs like emulation because it becomes a ritual for discarding our male burdens and gaining entry to female privileges. It becomes our version of stepping through the looking glass into an alternative reality where we become a different person by occupying the female social role and so people relate to us differently. Just look at the huge success of role playing games on computers to see how attractive this idea is. CDs get to play this game in the flesh so to speak.

I do understand the need for escapism and such, I actually occasionally play Live Action Roleplaying games with some friends of mine, where one creates a total character and there's a great deal of stepping outside yourself into another role.

The difference here is that when people play a roleplaying game, if someone starts to identify their character as being their true self, or saying they feel more alive or comfortable as their avatar or such, then people start to worry about them and their grip on reality. While crossdressing is fun and can really relax us, there's a lot more to it than just playing a game. Almost universally it is referred to on here as something that comes from deep within us as an urge to express our feminine side. I don't think many people have a natural urge to kill Orcs. The only folks who I think really fit the "roleplaying game" model with their crossdressing are drag queens, as there are definitely some that I've spoken to who tell me that they only dress in women's clothes when they are performing as their character. For them it is a costume.

I'm not denying the escapism aspect of crossdressing doesn't exist, I'm just saying that in roleplaying often the goal is to become someone totally outside yourself where I think when we crossdress we're trying to connect with something within.

As for gaining entry to female privileges, that is absolutely part of why CDs try to pass. like I said before, it seems to be a response to social rules telling us "Boys can't do that, only girls can." So we become part girl to do it. Women on the other hand have for decades been saying "Um, no, we're doing this," and just marched their way into it.

My thought is just, doesn't this then become just a vicious cycle?

[melissacd]

For some it is role playing, no question. For others I think that it is an alignment with who they are. Clothing is just that. Interests are just that. Cultures make arbitrary decisions on whether something is appropriate or not even if that arbitrary decision makes no sense at all.

I dress femme because that is who I really am, that is what I identify with. I do not identify with masculine anything. My gender expression preferences are what our culture would classify as feminine. I just call them my interests plain and simple. And I now accept that those leaning, those interests are fine the way they are.

I do know many cross dressers who are very in to the whole role playing thing when they dress up, but I am exactly the same person and behaviour when in a pair of pants and a T as I am when in a dress and heels. I am just me.

Melissa

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I do know many cross dressers who are very in to the whole role playing thing when they dress up, but I am exactly the same person and behaviour when in a pair of pants and a T as I am when in a dress and heels. I am just me.

I usually only dress fully en femme when it is for a costume, so for the that can be a bit of a roleplay, like I dressed as a french maid for halloween. I do see some CDs who take on a new persona when they dress up, but I often feel some concern for those folks because, although I'm playing armchair psychiatrist here, I feel like in many cases the "persona" becomes a way to shift the blame. Especially when in male mode they refer to their female side in third person and talk about her like she's a separate person from him entirely. I've seen people on this forum but mostly other forums who talk about the things they do as "Katie" that they would never do as Bob. Sounds like Bob does indeed do those things.

[Abbyru1]

My cross dressing is not a perversion to me. It's just me wearing clothing that I like.
Acceptence by the whole of society is not the main thing in my life. My wife barely
tolerates what I do. I am not going to put myself into a place that will cause me
problems in my work, in my social life or my home life. That doesn't mean I am willing to give it all up but would if circumstances( read that something pretty dang life threatening) gave me no other option.I am what I am. No one has to accept or be
damned but it is what I do. I'm not going to flaunt it anybody's face either. We have come a long way,but a guy in women's clothing is not the norm. If you can pass,
congratulations. But you had better be really good in your presentation because one
little screw up and your still a guy in women's clothing no matter how much effort is
involved to be there. I'll never be read as female- - -maybe after a huge amount of surgery! I'm not here to nag anybody for the way they may or not dress. I like where
I am with what I have.

[lavistaa62]

I question women not wearing men's clothes and presenting as men while CDs struggle to do the opposite. Working women nowadays- besides the surburban flexi-wrist movement (I won't get into that now) mostly don't try to be "female" and a lot of them don't really try to be attractive (I'm not criticizing) any more than men do- at least in the US, other places are different. Kept housewives and some young single women are a notable exception.

Mens' clothes try to be durable, rugged or distinquished, they are not generally attractive nor meant to be. I would argue that women wearing mens' clothes ARE in fact working quite hard to present themselves as men by de-objectifying themselves or at least that was the original motivation. Over the years of course the fashion industry has stolen the movement, commercialized it and attempted to make even pants suits flattering. Flattery is what women's clothes have always been all about.

When men wear women's clothes then they go for the girly bits to flatter themselves which course means emulating the female body and mannerisms. The prancing and preening is a natural extension of the clothes- just as being comfortable and practical is a natural extension of wearing mens' clothes- which incidentally my wife is doing today- 100% my clothes since they are comfortable. The discrepancy of men (me) who are supposed to be heroic and courageous being afraid of exposing any element of femininity while my wife- the supposed demure and frightened female society says I am supposed to defend and protect bravely dressing and acting as she chooses does not escape me.

Men could adopt flattering clothing but I'm not sure how they would be mass marketed. In the past, men upper class men dressed like a woman only in pantaloons, etc. That just doesn't float now because men are draped in the whole manly thing which society will not let us remove. My ex wife gave me that sort of crap despite my earning 4x her wage, 2x her education, a 56 heartbeat and having 9% bodyfat. Because I could cook, coordinate colors, sew and had female friends I wasn't a "man", because I didn't like any of the big four sports I was "odd". It goes on. My point is that pressures- from male and female members of society prevent males from openly adopting female qualities even when it's clear society would benefit from their doing so. When that nonsense falls away it will be interesting to see how or if CD feelings manifest themselves.

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[Satrana]

At what point does this stop being simply crossdressing and instead land somewhere further down the TG spectrum? Although emulation may reflect a deeper TG personality, often I believe it does not. If you have spent a lifetime dreaming of your female persona as a fully endowed female, then you will only feel contented when your real life dressing matches your self image. The important distinction here is the self image is not derived from a deep TG subconscious need but rather it was developed in our dreams.

Here is an analogy. If you wished to be a bird so you could fly - would you satisfy this dream by being a passenger on a 747 or learning how to handglide? The desire to soar freely as a bird does not mean who actually have a deeper need within to become a bird.


Almost universally it is referred to on here as something that comes from deep within us as an urge to express our feminine side. Yes but that does not explain why dressing in clothes alone does not satisfy the urge to express femininity. Emulation is needed to convince ourselves and others to see and treat us like we were real women even if everyone knows we are not. So the need for emulation is not derived from the urge to express femininity but rather it is a tool required to be granted access to female social roles and emotions.

Remember CDs say they don't want to actually become women, they just want the freedom to express femininity. This is contradicted if they feel they cannot achieve this without emulation. It only makes sense if you are heavily transgendered and truly want to go full time.


I would argue that women wearing mens' clothes ARE in fact working quite hard to present themselves as men by de-objectifying themselves or at least that was the original motivation.
I very much agree. The reason why masculine clothing has become so dominant in female culture is because it is used to de-femininze their appearance to conform to the modern woman ideal the feminist movement championed and it also avoids the negative stereotypes such as the dumb blond. It is crossdressing for a different reason - not to directly emulate the male gender but to distance themselves from their own traditional feminine image which limited their potential.

[Frédérique]

The idea is more, if you identify as a m2f crossdresser, and you say that your motivations for doing so is that you like the clothes, as opposed to wanting to be or feel like or appear as a woman, then why is it so important for you to present a female image, aside from the convenience argument, that being en femme gives you a degree of anonymity that allows you to dress the way you please?

It’s like a series of steps along a twisting transvestism career path – obviously it’s different for you. I want to see how far I can carry myself along this chosen route. I know where it’s taking me, but the meaning is in the journey itself. I suppose it’s all about curiosity – curiouser and curiouser and CURIOUSER. Presenting a female image is only the final, outer piece of the transformation – more construction, in regards to gender integration, is accomplished behind the curtains, away from prying eyes…:straightface:

However, I don’t agree that being en femme produces a “degree of anonymity.” Huh? In my case it actually brings a heightened presence, visibility and vulnerability that are at odds with my own personality. I’m not an extrovert, so being en femme is purely a private pleasure. I can do it within the parameters of my lifestyle, in fact it’s been tailored to fit (quite snugly) within those constraints. Wanting to be a woman? No. Wanting to feel like a woman? No (how does it feel?). Wanting to appear as a woman? Not exactly, but somewhere within those three desires is the truth of the matter, and it’s fun to be there, keeping everyone guessing…:battingeyelashes:

[SusieK]

Here is an analogy. If you wished to be a bird so you could fly - would you satisfy this dream by being a passenger on a 747 or learning how to handglide? The desire to soar freely as a bird does not mean who actually have a deeper need within to become a bird.


Damn, you beat me to the analogy:). To take this further, as a human being, even if you were able to be a bird, this particular dream would be to experience the bird's life at least to some degree through the eyes of a human being. Otherwise you would just be a bird, and would no longer appreciate how special it was to be able to fly.

Now, the image of femininity that we aspire to is based on being bombarded throughout our lives with images from the media regarding what it is to be sexy, attractive and feminine. For GGs, none of this is special, it's just how it is. But from an MTF CD perspective, it is very alluring. By dressing we can capture an impression of what we feel it would be like to be an attractive woman.

I'd be interested to hear a GG comment on how it feels to get dressed up for a special night out for example. Although I don't go out en femme, dressing for me would be along similar lines, with a ritualised process of preparation, cleansing and transformation, from a normal guy to a (poor) approximation of an attractive woman. The whole process gradually alters the state of mind, and although it is still me, it is different, and I am suffused by a warm glow of contentment. (I am not talking about anything sexual in this scenario) I can then lose myself in a sense of the feminine, or my fantasy version of the feminine at any rate.

An analogy for this process is a musician at any level. The mindset of playing is that you settle down to play and go through a ritual of warm up exercises to tune back in, to deliberately prepare your mental state. As you continue something wondrous happens, and your mind moves into a special state of concentration and focus. You're still you, the same person who started to play but your mind has reached a state that leaves you with a lasting sense of well being. There is no need to create an alter-ego "music man" who you have temporarily become, and nor are you putting on an act.

Well for me, that's how dressing is at its best.

I don't consider it as contrived as roleplaying as I don't put on an act. The same is true when I'm out as normal as a guy, I rarely have to put on an act - I'm just me, but nevertheless different people I come into contact with get different aspects of my personality. I'm different at work to how I am at home. Different when just with my wife compared to when my kids are around. Different when I'm on my own. I didn't have a girl-name before I joined this community, and it's not an alter-ego as such, but it's a reasonable label for how I am sometimes, when I'm on my own as Susie, but she's still just me.

There's more to it than that, often with contradictions as well, but as I say, that's dressing at its best.

The bit I don't get is the depth of the need - but that's probably for a different thread.

Susie (but still just me)

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

However, I don’t agree that being en femme produces a “degree of anonymity.” Huh? In my case it actually brings a heightened presence, visibility and vulnerability that are at odds with my own personality. I’m not an extrovert, so being en femme is purely a private pleasure. I can do it within the parameters of my lifestyle, in fact it’s been tailored to fit (quite snugly) within those constraints. Wanting to be a woman? No. Wanting to feel like a woman? No (how does it feel?). Wanting to appear as a woman? Not exactly, but somewhere within those three desires is the truth of the matter, and it’s fun to be there, keeping everyone guessing…:battingeyelashes: [/SIZE][/FONT]

All these comments of mine that you are disagreeing with were not my own thoughts but thoughts that had been stated on other occasions here by others. I was reacting to them. There are people who have said that "passing" helps them to dress without fear of being recognized because they look so different from their drab selves. That's the anonymity I was referring to.


I would argue that women wearing mens' clothes ARE in fact working quite hard to present themselves as men by de-objectifying themselves or at least that was the original motivation.

I don't disagree, and I think that has a lot to do with the one sided street aspect of this whole discussion. I think socially we've been programmed to think that a woman blending masculinity into her style is bettering or strengthening herself, where as a man who adds touches of feminine is weakening himself.




Now, the image of femininity that we aspire to is based on being bombarded throughout our lives with images from the media regarding what it is to be sexy, attractive and feminine. For GGs, none of this is special, it's just how it is. But from an MTF CD perspective, it is very alluring. By dressing we can capture an impression of what we feel it would be like to be an attractive woman.

I think this is an interesting point. But I also think that once you get into that territory of specifically wanting to know what it would be like to be an attractive women, it starts to suggest that you're heading into more transgendered territory.


I'd be interested to hear a GG comment on how it feels to get dressed up for a special night out for example. Although I don't go out en femme, dressing for me would be along similar lines, with a ritualised process of preparation, cleansing and transformation, from a normal guy to a (poor) approximation of an attractive woman.

Ok, but, hear me out on this one, because you touched on my go-to argument. As was said earlier in this thread by another post, women adapted masculine stuff into their wardrobe partially in an effort to behave like men. Now, let's take this example of yours in reverse.

I know plenty of women who love football. They dress up in sports jerseys, they guzzle beer at tailgate games and eat junk food and hang out as one of the boys. They experience the primal, mob mentality of being a sports fan, and they feel like what it is to be one of the guys.

Now, many of these same girls will also have "Girls night out" type evenings where they get dressed up in their cutest clothes, do their hair and makeup and go out dancing and being girly as all get out. Right now the general social paradigm doesn't really allow for the male equivalent of the football girls. If a man wants to feel what it's like to go through the ritualized process of preparation and cleansing and such for a special night, currently it seems insisted upon that he at least try to approximate a female image.

The social contract states that men simply don't behave in this way. The social contract is flawed, however. But rather than fight it we have sold ourselves out to it. We've agreed that men don't behave this way so if we want to behave this way we need to dress as women. Thus, we're playing into the very system that keeps us down to begin with, via tacit subconscious agreement. But the fact is, men can look good dressed up in flattering, feminine clothes, with makeup and all that, without needing to fake that we're women. Eddie Izzard is the best proof of that in my opinion. Even when he wears false boobs he still presents as a male, and yet he looks better as a man in all that stuff than if he tried to seriously attempt a female image. And he also looks great in a men's suit. He can shift between the ultra feminine and the attractive masculine all he wants. He's hardly the first either, David Bowie did it decades before him! And we can all do that, we just have to stop convincing ourselves that we can't.

[Satrana]

even if you were able to be a bird, this particular dream would be to experience the bird's life at least to some degree through the eyes of a human being. Otherwise you would just be a bird, and would no longer appreciate how special it was to be able to fly.
Excellent point. CDs are really chasing an illusion of sorts, what we think of as femininity as viewed through the eyes of males. We are more interested in exploring this fantasy rather than integrating real life femininity into our mundane everyday existence.



As you continue something wondrous happens, and your mind moves into a special state of concentration and focus. That is a better description than mine when I described the emulation process as a ritualized gateway. It is about shedding the male skin and focusing the mind and senses on the experience of femininity.


The social contract is flawed, however. But rather than fight it we have sold ourselves out to it. We've agreed that men don't behave this way so if we want to behave this way we need to dress as women. Thus, we're playing into the very system that keeps us down to begin with, via tacit subconscious agreement.

Wholeheartedly agree. It took me a long time to see this though. I was too caught up in pink fog, too reticent to let go of my private endorphin adventures. Too dependent on the ritual gateway to sensuality and the anonymity and permission emulation provides. There are two many advantages overall so I understand why most CDs do not want to go beyond this stage.

In the bigger scheme of things though, CDs are shooting themselves in the foot. People are not stupid, they do not appreciate two-faced people. Saying you need to express your femininity does not mean you have to emulate. Tomboys do not do this so the evidence is already clear. People understand that emulation is more about fantasy and illusion and being afraid to show your true self than anything else. Instead of showing off different facets of yourself as a different persona, we should be integrating everything together and being proud of who you are.

But we face a chicken and egg situation. Until society becomes accepting, boys will continue to go into hiding and will seek out the emulation solution. It is too easy, too convenient and provides too many advantages. But it also hinders public acceptance of tomgirls.

[izzfan]

I've said in another thread that I credit discovering "men in skirts" websites during my pre-teen and teen years with helping me develop my own style and freedom of dress attitude, but also I remember being blown away the first time I saw Eddie Izzard's "Dress to Kill" on HBO and saw how great a guy could look blending feminine and masculine together. Both of these things hit me while I was still in my developmental years, but even now I still feel the occasional pull from my childhood telling me "But you're a boy! boys don't wear makeup! boys don't wear skirts!" Well, this boy does.

Seeing Eddie Izzard on television (initially an interview with him on "Top Gear" in 2004) and "men in skirts" websites were the first things that, at the age of about 16, made me realise that I wasn't the "freak" that I thought I was and that I wasn't alone.

I am definately transgendered, I do not know whether I am a transvestite/crossdresser, an androgyne or a tomgirl . Perhaps I am all three of these things. The thing is, whilst I present my masculine side in public (in terms of personlity/expression.I try to make my appearence as androgynous as possible) and occasionally like doing "guy stuff". I generally feel a lot happier when I am dressed or in a "feminine" mood.

It is quite shocking that society is still quite rigid about male gender roles whereas there is a much wider range of personal expression available to women. How on earth do completely "masculine" men cope with this? (I could probably stand being "masculine" 24/7 for a few days/a couple of weeks but after a while it would probably drive me insane).

It is a terrible thing when I am informally forced by society to censor an intergral part of my being in most social situations. Yes, I have been out "en femme" on a few occasions but I have always had to have an "excuse" (eg: fancy dress) and I don't thinkthat I would have the confidence to go out en femme during the day.

[JamieOH]

Eddie Izzard is no doubt, an inspiration... I wish we all could have that courage.. it would make this whole thing easier on us all... We then would be seen in the Sheer numbers that we are as not being abnormal, but rather, being a significant part of the population.. and we would be taken seriously... the fashion world would love us for it too...

[Satrana]

How on earth do completely "masculine" men cope with this? (I could probably stand being "masculine" 24/7 for a few days/a couple of weeks but after a while it would probably drive me insane).

Well while some men have a natural personality that aligns well with the masculine role, the majority of men don't. Most men know that they are a fry cry from the alpha male others would like them to be. They are not interested in being violent and picking on weakness, not interested in commanding and dictating, not interested in always having to carry other people's burdens while internalizing their own. The problem is men lack the knowledge and tools to allow them to understand they have a choice in defining their own gender and it is ok not to be masculine.

It is interesting to see how many men mellow with age. As the need to prove masculinity recedes, older men are happy the forgo masculine rituals and competition and increasingly incorporate feminine traits. This is the ironic thing about wisdom, we need it most when we are young but it arrives late in life when we have little opportunity to make good use of it.