Would Your Spouse Be Okay If...

[melissacd]

I raised a question in one of Ryan's threads that no one seemed to pick up on but I think is an important question to ask if it has not already been asked.

My girlfriend is accepting of my cross dressing and my feminine ways. She is even okay with some of the more edgy things that I do when I am in my version of male mode. She seems to draw the line though when I get too close to looking femme without actually putting on makeup and doing my hair and putting in the breast forms. I was quite surprised by that reaction. What she said was if I am going to push the envelope that far then go all the way, dress up properly as a girl as it makes her uncomfortable in public for me obviously look like a man in a dress.

I was puzzled by that because even at my best I feel that I still look like a man in a dress, but for some reason it puts her at ease if I completely transform myself into my female representation.

Now there are many cross dressers who cry foul because women can clearly and obviously wear things that are deemed male and they are not treated as though they are doing something wrong, but when a man tries to do that - well that is something different. Women point out that they wear men's clothes but they do not try to pad their crotch or wear a beard or such things. On the other hand they say it is not the same in our case because we tuck, pad hips and put in breast forms.

I think that they have a very good point.

So to that end and based on the reaction of my girlfriend, how many spouses/girlfriends would be okay if their partner just wore women's clothes in public but did not complete the image. So for example, if their mate sported a beard and a nice blouse, skirt and heels would that be okay, would that then no longer be different than what they say that they are doing?

My suspicion is that many women would have trouble with this, by definition dressing in this way is now no different than what women are doing and yet I think that it would be a challenge for many as it is for my girlfriend. Her attitude is do it all the way or not at all.

I am curious to hear the thoughts of others on this matter.

Melissa

[Sandra]

I like to see Nigella presenting who she is, now if that means she goes around with no makeup on, but is still dressed up then I'm ok with it.

As for your example about having a beard and dressed up, for me it wouldn't be the complete picture, but if that is what she wanted to do (but had better not after all the laser she's had :heehee:) then I wouldn't stop supporting her.

Hope I've got the right idea about your question :)

[Loni]

it is a one way street.

it has always been, ok, cool, great, etc. for a girlfriend, wife to put on something from her "male friends" stack...but let a man put on a better looking shirt and all shell breaks loose.:eek:

growing up my mom would put on a pair of my dads pants to work in the yard, some times even a shirt..but that was ok.

let me try on one of my sisters skirts and.....well you know.

[Kerigirl2009]

Ok here is my take on this. There is nothing wrong with how anyone dresses or what they are wearing.
However, if a man chooses to dress in womens clothing and go out in public but is still obviously a man, THIS is where I believe the negative additudes come from. Simply because it looks wierd. For me even though I am a CD I would never go out while lets say, I have a beard or without breastforms. I think the negativity from the public actually comes from fear and possible exposure to there children (raising questions that they are not equipped to handle)
I think that if you are trying to look as much like a woman while out in public we are easier to explain to others or they can choose to look away and just put us in a catagory of a not so pretty woman.
For the GG that dress like men well I think that is easy to do because women have ALL the items in their wardrobe already and they are completely accepted as normal.
I guess most women when wearing mens jeans probably do not choose to wear male underwear, (Excluding boxers) as boxers are an accepted sleepwear item for women.
So I would say if you go out in public try your best to pass (the dreaded p word). OR try not to stand out because of the negativity towards parents and their childrens comments and soon to follow questions. I think what I am saying is Fear and lack of knowledge scares the hell out of people who just don't understand why men would enjoy dressing in womens clothing.

[kimdl93]

I think my wife would be more comfortable if I could be reasonably passable in public, rather just being a man in women's clothes. I'm a long ways from being able to pull that off, unfortunately.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I've discussed this issue before with the girl that I'm currently dating. Even though it's just a casual thing, she's the first girl I've dated since coming out. At first she was only on board with the kilt, because she really has a thing for them, but she wasn't sure how she would feel about the full on skirts and tights and stuff. She said that it had less to do with her not liking how I was dressed and more about not being comfortable being in public and having a lot of people glancing and judging.

I really thought it was going to be sort of a struggle, because I didn't want to re-closet myself but I also didn't want to make her uncomfortable. What ended up happening though is one day I was writing inside a Barnes and Noble and she happened to have a break between her two jobs and wanted to hang out. I told her where I was and that I was wearing a skirt, and left it up to her if she felt ok coming to meet and hang out with me despite how I was dressed.

She decided she wanted to see me regardless and she came and we hung out, and once she was there and saw how much of a non-issue it was for me and for the others in the coffee shop, she became a lot more relaxed with it.

I think that is likely what would be most people's big concerns, and frankly was my biggest fear in starting to do it, that I might have a pretty good look put together but it was still likely to be an issue because it is inevitably going to draw attention when out in public. But the more and more of us that do it, the more it will become a non-issue.

Now for my added response to Keri's post:


Ok here is my take on this. There is nothing wrong with how anyone dresses or what they are wearing.

"I'm not a racist.. BUT..."


However, if a man chooses to dress in womens clothing and go out in public but is still obviously a man, THIS is where I believe the negative additudes come from. Simply because it looks wierd. For me even though I am a CD I would never go out while lets say, I have a beard or without breastforms. I think the negativity from the public actually comes from fear and possible exposure to there children (raising questions that they are not equipped to handle)

Simply because it looks weird? How many truly passable CDs do you know? I've seen some great posed pictures on the internet but in real life not so much. I'm not saying they don't look good, I've seen some great looking CDs out in public but they were still CDs. They still "look weird" to John Q. Public who doesn't deal with CDing on a regular basis.

As far as it being better in regards to exposure to children? Are you kidding me? You think parents who are worried about their kids being exposed to things are going to be ok with it as long as the guy has on a wig and fake boobs?



For the GG that dress like men well I think that is easy to do because women have ALL the items in their wardrobe already and they are completely accepted as normal.
I guess most women when wearing mens jeans probably do not choose to wear male underwear, (Excluding boxers) as boxers are an accepted sleepwear item for women.

So excluding the very exact thing that invalidates your point, your point is valid? You're right, most women don't wear male underwear, except for the male underwear that a lot of women wear. Women have ALL the items in their wardrobe already because they fought for the right to do so. They didn't hide behind passing.


So I would say if you go out in public try your best to pass (the dreaded p word). OR try not to stand out because of the negativity towards parents and their childrens comments and soon to follow questions. I think what I am saying is Fear and lack of knowledge scares the hell out of people who just don't understand why men would enjoy dressing in womens clothing.

So "There's nothing wrong with how anyone dresses" but "if you go out in public try your best to pass."

[melissacd]

...and to whit I guess that is my point. The reason that it is acceptable for women to do these things is because they did it, they went through a lot of trouble to get to wear men's clothes but now it is normal...is that not true for us too? We have to do it and make it normal for it to be accepted as normal.

[kellycan27]

...and to whit I guess that is my point. The reason that it is acceptable for women to do these things is because they did it, they went through a lot of trouble to get to wear men's clothes but now it is normal...is that not true for us too? We have to do it and make it normal for it to be accepted as normal.

I think that some of you are missing a very basic fact...A woman is still a woman, no matter how she is dressed, and men recognize this, coupled with the fact that if they ( men) wish to co-exist peacefully with same .. they best accept the fact. If anybody is to blame for the disparity between men and women.. it should be men. Women have something to offer in exchange for acceptance.( something that men want) What do you have? I agree that in order that we be more accepted we do in fact need to "just do it", but that is where the comparison to what we can do as opposed to what women can do ends.

Kel

[Kate Simmons]

We are not the only ones who struggle with so called "male propriety" Melissa. It seems most of the rest of society does as well. We can't fight "city hall" I guess but we can take ownership of our own destiny. It could be a lot worse really.:)

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I think that some of you are missing a very basic fact...A woman is still a woman, no matter how she is dressed, and men recognize this, coupled with the fact that if they ( men) wish to co-exist peacefully with same .. they best accept the fact. If anybody is to blame for the disparity between men and women.. it should be men. Women have something to offer in exchange for acceptance.( something that men want) What do you have? I agree that in order that we be more accepted we do in fact need to "just do it", but that is where the comparison to what we can do as opposed to what women can do ends.

Kel

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. Are you saying a man is not a man, no matter how he is dressed? Are you saying women have no interest in co-existing peacefully with men? That men have nothing to offer women?

Yes, there is definitely a lot of resistance from men that is responsible for the disparity in men's fashion choices versus women's. There's also resistance from women, and it should be noted, there was resistance from some women towards women wearing pants. It was shocking that Mary Tyler Moore did it on Dick Van Dyke. As such, there will definitely be men who do the same as people like myself push for men's fashion to undergo some long needed alterations.

I guess what I wasn't prepared for was how much resistance I would find to the idea from other crossdressers. (Not speaking to you specifically, I've never noted such thoughts from you)

[melissacd]

It is possible though that some of that resistance is out of fear and some of that resistance is out of not wanting to change the status quo - the status quo keeps the whole practice a bit more exciting and thrilling because of its forbidden nature. Just a thought.

But then we digress...my question is whether SOs would be okay with us if we look more like men in dresses, where we do not try to create a female illusion but rather that we create a feminine male expression (so we still try to look nice but we do it in the context of not trying to hide the fact that we are male - so makeup and hair and nice outfits and jewellery and nails etc... are fine - but no bra required because no breast forms, do not mask your voice, no hip padding, you own natural hair...)

Thanks for all of the excellent input so far...

Melissa

[kellycan27]

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. Are you saying a man is not a man, no matter how he is dressed? Are you saying women have no interest in co-existing peacefully with men? That men have nothing to offer women?

Yes, there is definitely a lot of resistance from men that is responsible for the disparity in men's fashion choices versus women's. There's also resistance from women, and it should be noted, there was resistance from some women towards women wearing pants. It was shocking that Mary Tyler Moore did it on Dick Van Dyke. As such, there will definitely be men who do the same as people like myself push for men's fashion to undergo some long needed alterations.

I guess what I wasn't prepared for was how much resistance I would find to the idea from other cross dressers. (Not speaking to you specifically, I've never noted such thoughts from you)

No Jive

I was speaking of acceptance in the sense that men are more accepting of what a woman chooses to wear simple from the fact that they are women. And men want to be with women...so basically it's not a bad trade off for men. There is basically a reward for men to be accepting.... They get the woman. A woman can accept the fact that another woman can wear what she wants simply by the fact that they are themselves women.
I am not saying that cross dressers have nothing to offer,rather that in the cis-world it is just going to a lot harder. Take cross dressing completely out of the picture, and just look at man and woman. Men will typically bend over backwards to please a woman..... You attract more flys with honey than vinegar.

[Joanne f]

I have often wondered that in the long term society would be more accepting if they saw more men in the clothes and a bit of makeup but no wig for the simple reason that it would show that no one was hiding anything (not saying that anyone is), it is a bit like teenagers that wear hoodies you wonder "what are they up to" so would the public be more accepting in the long run.
It has been said many times that women can wear what they like , so is it time that men wear what they like without trying to pass as a woman, that would put everyone on an equal footing.

We hear a lot about the wife`s/SO who say that they cannot cope with the lies but very little is mentioned about the embarrassment factor of their man being seen out with or without them dressed as a woman so maybe their answer to it is , disguise you as much as possible and hope no one will notice.

I am wondering how the answers on here that you get from the GGs will really reflect on what society in general would say but never lest it will still be interesting.

[JustWendy]

Kel - thanks for taking a second stab at explaining. I missed the point you were trying to make in your initial post, but now I understand and agree. Just in general in society, if a wife said to her husband, as he came home from work, "I'm not sharing a bed with you tonight unless you take a shower", he'll start showing when he comes home from work, as a regular routine. I can't imagine any husband saying something to his wife like, "I'm not going to share a bed with you tonight if you're going to continue to wear those flannel pajamas."

Wendy

[lavistaa62]

I did a rather long post on this subject just a bit ago:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2029943#post2029943

One of the points was- men lack social courage. While politicians, some entertainers and academics do try to change society, few have begun to change this aspect of society.

JiveTurky is IMHO, right on in his approach and insight. I feel this way and it's reflected in my picture/avatar. Yes, it's very feminine, but her face is made up to create mystery rather than entice. My CD is referenced by the lack of clothing except for the (manly) blue wrap which was ironically draped to partially hide the laying bare of my inner self. It's feminine but I wanted to bring some male assertiveness to it.

I'd dispute somethings that have come out of this thread- many women are desperate to find and "keep" a man. In the past anyway it was a necessity, now it's an incredibly strong social expectation. Men are better at being lonely, depressed and pissed off. The strong silent type was seldom an admired social model for females. I would absolutely ask my wife to take off that flannel nightgown if it didn't look so darn good on her:) My point is that socially to this point, women need men more than men need women and it's reflected in our relationships. Men can exhibit feminine characteristics to the extent this aspect of our relationships shift and we become more dependent on women for economic and social survival.

[kellycan27]

kel - thanks for taking a second stab at explaining. I missed the point you were trying to make in your initial post, but now i understand and agree. Just in general in society, if a wife said to her husband, as he came home from work, "i'm not sharing a bed with you tonight unless you take a shower", he'll start showing when he comes home from work, as a regular routine. I can't imagine any husband saying something to his wife like, "i'm not going to share a bed with you tonight if you're going to continue to wear those flannel pajamas."

wendy

exactly!!!!!!

[PetiteDuality]

I think that the main difference between men wearing women clothes vs. women wearing men clothes is the origin of it.

Women started wearing men clothes because of the comfort of it. They had to go to the factories during WWI and WWII while their men were fighting. They used pants and men shirts for doing some of the manual labor. Actually, one of the examples here is about a woman using her husband's pants and shirt for gardening. It's a matter of practicality, and that's accepted.

However and to be honest, a man wearing women clothes for the comfort of it? Come on, women clothes are more uncomfortable. They feel better, but are not more comfortable. We use these clothes because we feel prettier, more confident with our looks. Maybe if a guy is really cold, he can borrow his wife's sweater and people won't be weirded out. Again, it's the practical use of the sweater.

I think this is the root of the weird feeling of many women (and men). As my wife told me once, she doesn't mind about me having my shaved legs, but she doesn't understand why I care so much about hair in my legs. People perceive that men are not supposed to be so centered in being pretty. For many people, it is a less than desirable trait in a man.