Did it start in the womb???

[NikiMichelle]

Who believes we were born to become a CD and therefore it was was in the genes (or fashion jeans) or was it a trait that evolved in our lives??

[Bree-asaurus]

Well what men and women wear depend on society, not genetics. I think there is probably predisposition to being more feminine and that just happens to come out through wearing what women wear. I have no idea lol!

[Nigella23]

I heard that CD'ing was linked to receiving higher levels of oestrogen in the womb, most likely due to the mother being under large stress or trauma. I know this would fit with my own situation, but obviously don't know whether this to be a fact for my CD.

[Karren H]

Don't know..... doesn't really mater to me because even if I did know, it wouldn't change a thing......

[Loni]

as far back as i can remember i was drawn to womens clothing.:daydreaming:

.

[sherri52]

If you believe in predestination, then everything you do was in you long before you were born. If not then something or someone got you into it.

[Staci G]

I came out naked so I assume it was later that this wonderful part of my life started. (yes it is wonderful to me)

[Jaydee]

I have always felt that it did, but I agree with Karren, does that change anything. I believe it will always be with me. Someday we may know for sure.

Jaydee

[msniki48]

Well what men and women wear depend on society, not genetics. I think there is probably predisposition to being more feminine and that just happens to come out through wearing what women wear. I have no idea lol!

What men wear does depend on society...but those that feel they are women and dress...thats a little different. at least i think so

in vetro, there is a testosterone wash that makes us a male...since we all start out as female...if that wash was late or less than normal...due to stress of mother or any other thing... it could change our disposition...Studies have shown TG's have a smaller ...i believe hypothalmous. as do women...so there seems to be a connection of a physical sort...it has been a long time since i have read the papers.

here is part of the text:
The area in the brain that regulates female and male reproductive behavior is the hypothalamus. This tiny structure at the base of the brain connects to the pituitary, the master endocrine gland. It has been shown that a region of the hypothalamus is visibly larger in male rats than in females and that this size difference is under hormonal control. Scientists have also found parallel sex differences in a clump of nerve cells in the human brain--parts of the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus--that is larger in men than in women. Even sexual orientation and gender identity have been related to anatomical variation in the hypothalamus. Other researchers, Jiang-Ning Zhou of the Netherlands Institute of Brain Research and his colleagues there and at Free University in Amsterdam, observed another part of the hypothalamus to be smaller in male-to-female transsexuals than in a male control group. These findings are consistent with suggestions that sexual orientation and gender identity have a significant biological component.


but i do feel there are physical as well as mental reasons for us being different.

again...just my :2c:

[melissacd]

I totally believe that I was always this way. Does that mean it starts in the womb, perhaps. I am not trying to find the reasons why, rather I am trying to do my best just to accept who I am and that is all any of us should do.

[AlannahNorth]

Possibly a bit of both, and our circumstances, environment and experiences nudged us towards the panty drawer... and eventually we either jumped in or we didn't. Problem is that an unknown percentage of people (inclined such as we are) do not get involved in crossdressing for any number of reasons, and we don't have much in the way of stats on them.

I'd have to say that the draw to female clothing and jewellery was always there for me.

I'm inclined to think that if you give almost anything enough of your attention for awhile, even an extremely small measure of interest has a good chance of developing into something more substantial.

That doesn't really answer much, does it?!

[msniki48]

I totally believe that I was always this way. Does that mean it starts in the womb, perhaps. I am not trying to find the reasons why, rather I am trying to do my best just to accept who I am and that is all any of us should do.

Melissa, I admire your courage...my therapist also asked me does it matter how it happens?

Maybe i'm not there yet..but it seems important to me to have some sort of validation. I find it strange that everyone tells us..[including therapists] it will never go away, there is no cure etc. etc. then there must be something inside that draws me in this direction, even if i don't want to go. [ and there have been days like that]

I have accepted myself and i embrace niki as part of me...but i would love to know how and why.. It also makes it a little easier to explain to those that totally don't understand why we do what we do.


Here is to being yourself!:love:

[VanessaVW]

Possibly a bit of both, and our circumstances, environment and experiences nudged us towards the panty drawer... and eventually we either jumped in or we didn't. Problem is that an unknown percentage of people (inclined such as we are) do not get involved in crossdressing for any number of reasons, and we don't have much in the way of stats on them.
I'd have to say that the draw to female clothing and jewellery was always there for me.

I'm inclined to think that if you give almost anything enough of your attention for awhile, even an extremely small measure of interest has a good chance of developing into something more substantial.

That doesn't really answer much, does it?!

There's probably a number of men who do partake, but suppress it or will never acknowledge it as we have.

[Satrana]

since we all start out as female... False. Fetuses start off gender neutral, neither male or female. It is a common TG myth that we started off as female.


Studies have shown TG's have a smaller ...i believe hypothalmous. as do women...so there seems to be a connection of a physical sort...
The hypothalamus controls metabolic processes such as temperature, hunger, thirst and fatigue. It has been shown that it responds to smells and it has been theorized that this may be linked to sexual attraction between the sexes through odor recognition. This research was carried out on rats and there is no data on whether it is applicable to humans.


The area in the brain that regulates female and male reproductive behavior is the hypothalamus. No specific part of the brain is responsible for sexual behavior. It is a complex reaction that involves many parts. However the drive which compels us to eat and drink is dictated by the hypothalamus and it is also believed it may be involved with the sexual drive to mate.

While the hypothalamus may play a role in the sex drive and perhaps even sexual orientation, this has no bearing on gender identification which corresponds to a wide breadth of human behavior involving all parts of the brain.

[noeleena]

Hi ...
Then heres a ?? if i m in the middle & have both t & e what am i . & if t & e effect the body why am i wired both male & female , andro , or my friend who is intersex. so really its determined in the womb , why i say this is in my thinking if i did at a very early age i saw no difference between male & female so for me to be male or female did not have any thing to do with how or not i was brought up that was inside my brain , to start with .

...noeleena...

[msniki48]

False. Fetuses start off gender neutral, neither male or female. It is a common TG myth that we started off as female.


The hypothalamus controls metabolic processes such as temperature, hunger, thirst and fatigue. It has been shown that it responds to smells and it has been theorized that this may be linked to sexual attraction between the sexes through odor recognition. This research was carried out on rats and there is no data on whether it is applicable to humans.

No specific part of the brain is responsible for sexual behavior. It is a complex reaction that involves many parts. However the drive which compels us to eat and drink is dictated by the hypothalamus and it is also believed it may be involved with the sexual drive to mate.

While the hypothalamus may play a role in the sex drive and perhaps even sexual orientation, this has no bearing on gender identification which corresponds to a wide breadth of human behavior involving all parts of the brain.


Satrana, there is ongoing research here...do you have feeling as to if it starts in the womb? i think this is a wonderful thread.

just trying to learn

[SuzanneBender]

What a great thread to read while drinking my morning tea.

I think its a little of both. Nature and nurture. I don't think we dress because we are genetically wired to like satin, silk and bright shinny things. I think we are wired for more feminine tendencies and the dressing it just an expression of those tendencies in accordance with society's expectation of females.

When did it happen? Well I was bitten by a radioactive female spider while trying to irradiate myself for a secret government project. Next thing I know I have a craving to run to Victoria's Secret and by something pink. Go figure. :heehee:

[chinagirl]

It has been shown that a region of the hypothalamus is visibly larger in male rats than in females and that this size difference is under hormonal control. Scientists have also found parallel sex differences in a clump of nerve cells in the human brain that is larger in men than in women. Even sexual orientation and gender identity have been related to anatomical variation in the hypothalamus. Other researchers, observed another part of the hypothalamus to be smaller in male-to-female transsexuals than in a male control group. sexual orientation and gender identity have a significant biological component.


Thanks for posting this, I found it fascinating. Wonder if I can go to have a brain scan now...:heehee:

[kimdl93]

Who believes we were born to become a CD and therefore it was was in the genes (or fashion jeans) or was it a trait that evolved in our lives??

research has shown that not only genes, but the hormonal environment of the womb can impact upon gender characteristics. for example, if you are a younger son, preceded by a male sibling, you're more likely to be homosexual. If you're preceded by multiple male siblings, the odds increase. So,I surmise that it may also be possible that in boys with one or more older male siblings might also tend to exhibit a range of more feminine characteristics. No specific evidence is available on this, that I know of.

[JustWendy]

Yikes, I'm the second son. Who knows, in my case maybe it was influenced by nurturing. After having a boy, maybe my mother encouraged the second child to be more in touch with his feelings and his sensitivity. This is not a conscience memory, but, like I said, who knows. My sister came along 10 years later, but by then I was well on my way to be that caring sensitive person I hope you're all getting to know.:D

[Sarah Doepner]

I was a perfectly normal male until I accidently surfed to this site and was recruited by force! A squad of very fashionable t-folk in pink camo and cute heels gave me a really nice makeover and fashion consultation.

I haven't been the same since.

[Lorileah]

What a great thread to read while drinking...

I had the same thought. (OK edited out the tea part).

It is so wonderful to read all the scientific evidence here that somehow I missed in the trade journals. Second son huh? Let's see the gay people I know. 50% are the only boy and half of them are the only child. I know a few who were the first child and one that was the 8th (4th boy). So that hypothesis is weak at best. Did it seem to infer that hormones sit around a womb for years after a child is born waiting to sexualize the next child?:eek:

Gender neutral would be correct for a zygote but the mammalian fetus does physically go through a stage where the external genitalia is more female then differentiates to male under genetic and hormonal influences. This is the part that I think the OP was referring to as did it start in the womb. The argument could be used for transsexuals but consider that the majority of TG's are not TS, it would be a weak argument also.

I love the brain theory. In science you make a hypothesis then you set out to prove or disprove that hypothesis. You take a sample population and compare within statistical standards and make your claim. Statistics lie. Four out of five statistics are made up as they say. If it was this easy, then being a TS would be easier. You go to your doctor, you say "I think I am TS". The doctor schedules a brain scan, measures your hypothalamus and either confirms you or says "You are nuts". Have you measured your third finger? How do you cross your legs? Does your pinky stick out when you drink tea? (Female brains are smaller than male brains...is this due to the fact that female skulls are smaller or that men just are less organized and need more space to file useless information like who won the 1954 world series or how many boiled eggs can you stuff in your mouth?)

Nature/nurture Either/eyether. Who cares? Let's say tomorrow they find out it is innate. They know that fetus A will be born male but love to dress up. Do you tell the mother? After the child is born and they dress like a girl mom can say to the teacher, "it was from me being stressed during pregnancy". This is an illogical postulation. Women 100 years ago had way more stress during pregnancy. Yet there are less documented TG people back then.

Here's my thought

"To be or not to be" Hamlet
"Do be a do bee" Miss Sally Romper room
"Do be do be doo" Frank Sinatra.

[Cathytg]

I make a distinction between being transgendered and cross dressing.

I feel strongly that we are born transgendered; the urges for most of people I read about all start at too early an age to be learned.

However, cross dressing is a behavior which can be picked up at any time. In reality, dressing is the most obvious way of satisfying the gender issues and so I, and so many others, started to dress at a very early age. But I think that the dressing flowed from a more profound gender issue.

And, so, I feel that dressing is not innate although gender identity is, indeed, born within us.

[Hali]

When one says TG pple are born that way many pple are quick to say no religious people, moralist so on. Am beginning to get tired and bored about CDing or TG issues, whether TG pple are born that way or not is up to the scientist or who ever is responsible (authorities) to investigate and find out not a mere TG person trying all his life to manage/cope with TGism.

Pple always surprise me when they think TGism is a hobby or a perversion and that TG pple are the cause and that they are guilty of bringing it on to themselves, how can a right minded person risk everything (family, friendship, high positions) in the society to announce publicly that he/she is transgender if that issue is not important to that person.

I think this issue of nurture versus nature have been "over debated".

Let a "normal" guy try CDing for a week and see whether he can coupe or not. whether we are born or curiosity got the best of us and turn us into this (CDs) i dont care any more, but all i know is that TGism is way more than nurture...........thats for sure.

[KarenCDFL]

I was definitely born this way. I have had feelings that I should have been a girl for as long as I can remember.

[SuzanneBender]

"Do be a do bee" Miss Sally Romper room

Ahhhh Haaaa Eureka Watson we have discovered it! I am the third son. That means Mom's Uterus was tired of toting around boys. As if that wasn't enough I started watching Romper Room. That witch never did say my boy name. Romper Bomper Boo Hoooo. So I must have decided based on the lack of testosterone impact on my hypodohicythingymabober that its better to be a girl. See nature and nurture at work. Whew now I can sleep at night. Well after I publish the research finding in the New England Journal of Medicine or the National Enquirer. I will share the credit with you Lori. Be prepared to go on Ellen and present our findings. :heehee:

[PetiteDuality]

Did it start in the womb?

Well, I really don't remember back then, but I don't think I had any girly outfit available while in the womb...

[msniki48]

I had the same thought. (OK edited out the tea part).

It is so wonderful to read all the scientific evidence here that somehow I missed in the trade journals. Second son huh? Let's see the gay people I know. 50% are the only boy and half of them are the only child. I know a few who were the first child and one that was the 8th (4th boy). So that hypothesis is weak at best. Did it seem to infer that hormones sit around a womb for years after a child is born waiting to sexualize the next child?:eek:

Gender neutral would be correct for a zygote but the mammalian fetus does physically go through a stage where the external genitalia is more female then differentiates to male under genetic and hormonal influences. This is the part that I think the OP was referring to as did it start in the womb. The argument could be used for transsexuals but consider that the majority of TG's are not TS, it would be a weak argument also.

I love the brain theory. In science you make a hypothesis then you set out to prove or disprove that hypothesis. You take a sample population and compare within statistical standards and make your claim. Statistics lie. Four out of five statistics are made up as they say. If it was this easy, then being a TS would be easier. You go to your doctor, you say "I think I am TS". The doctor schedules a brain scan, measures your hypothalamus and either confirms you or says "You are nuts". Have you measured your third finger? How do you cross your legs? Does your pinky stick out when you drink tea? (Female brains are smaller than male brains...is this due to the fact that female skulls are smaller or that men just are less organized and need more space to file useless information like who won the 1954 world series or how many boiled eggs can you stuff in your mouth?)

Nature/nurture Either/eyether. Who cares? Let's say tomorrow they find out it is innate. They know that fetus A will be born male but love to dress up. Do you tell the mother? After the child is born and they dress like a girl mom can say to the teacher, "it was from me being stressed during pregnancy". This is an illogical postulation. Women 100 years ago had way more stress during pregnancy. Yet there are less documented TG people back then.

Here's my thought

"To be or not to be" Hamlet
"Do be a do bee" Miss Sally Romper room
"Do be do be doo" Frank Sinatra.


Lorileah, I think i love you!:battingeyelashes:

you just polished off every theory....but you did it with such grace... i can't help but love you!

I still think there is something to it being not just mental but also physical... and i do think that even 20 years ago let alone 40 or 50....very few people would even admit to being depressed let alone TG or TS if they knew what that meant back then.

So we can continue to sip our tea and theorize...:daydreaming:


you're the best!:love:

[gabimartini]

I'm believe 100% that CDing is genetic. Why?

Because our stories are much too similar to be influenced by external factors. We come from different backgrounds, cultures, countries, yet, when it comes to CDing, stories seem to merge towards common ground.

Have you noticed how it generally begins:

1. On its own
2. First manifests at early childhood (4-8)
3. First transformation involves a single piece of clothing (underwear, nightgown, etc)
4. May or may not involve an early accomplice such as a sister, cousin, babysitter
5. Involves a lot of anxiety, self-loathing
6. Then comes the big urge/purge routine
7. Finally, some level of maturity and understanding kick-in and self-acceptance begins. (that doesn't mean out of the closet!)

From this point on, the environment shapes how the CDer will choose to live her life. There are many variables such as a spouse, children, family, friends, work, that will influence whether or not she may safely get out of the closet.

Before this, it's pure genetics. I don't have scientific proof, it just seems to make more sense. Not that it really matters, because regardless of how I got here, this is who I really am!

[JustWendy]

You make an interesting argument, Gabi. And an interesting approach, showing how it can't be environment, instead of proving why it's nature, which is impossible.

[SuzanneBender]

I am just loving this thread. I have revisted it 8 times and enjoy seeing everybody's theories.

However, I have consulted with Bill Nye the Science Guy and he has told me that it definately starts in the womb. You see it starts with the mommy having and egg and the daddy gives her some of his sperm. When they are in love of course........

Sorry switched from tea to wine about two hours ago and just couldn't resist.

[Lorileah]

I publish the research finding in the New England Journal of Medicine or the National Enquirer.
They check thie facts and check them again so it must be true


I will share the credit with you Lori. Be prepared to go on Ellen and present our findings. :heehee:

Ok I'll write my notes down on the palm of my hand. :)

[Satrana]

Satrana, there is ongoing research here...do you have feeling as to if it starts in the womb? i think this is a wonderful thread.


Yes there is research but at this stage absolutely nothing has been proved at this point. But such is the yearning of some to believe that it all started in the womb that often they claim that science has already proved something when it has not. It is baloney when anyone states that there is any definitive evidence out there. At the moment it is all speculation. The "we were all once female" is a classic example of the wishing thinking that some latch onto.

There is a major problem with the womb theory that it's supporters always overlook. The average age when a CD becomes aware of his need is around 10 years old. Many CDs start even later. So what happened during the first 10 years? How can CDs be born in the womb and be completely unaware of this condition?

And this is the really important issue - young children cannot lie about this feeling. They have no idea what gender is or that it is taboo to CD. So if we were all born CDs then all of us at ages 3-5 would have been constantly stating EVERYDAY our feminine needs to our family. There is no why a child at that age could hide these feelings. That that is not what happens at all.

But in the rare cases of transsexuality this is exactly what does happen. As soon as the TS child learns to speak, it lets its parents know that it is of the opposite gender. And the TS child has to contend with its TG feelings everyday of its life right throughout childhood.

Based on the above we can be quite certain that CDs were not born CD at all because it would have been impossible to hide this feeling when we were young. CDs are "born" at a much later date. To seal this argument you need only consider that most CDs report having normal boy upbringings, part of which was to consider girls as second class citizens worthy only for mocking and bullying. Most CDs report that before their CDing need arose, that last thing they would ever want to become was a girl. Again this reiterates the argument that there was no hidden femininity within us dating back to the womb.

As far as the nature debate goes I never understood why people have to conjure up mysterious events to make us more prevalent to becoming a CD. From abnormal hormone washes, birth control pills, the wishes of a mother for a daughter etc, there is always a need to find a definitive reason why "something went wrong" This seems to me to be an unnecessary quest. The behaviors that society artificially divides between the two genders are all normal human behaviors that everyone possess. Nature will automatically, through the law of averages, produce numerous boys whose personality matrix aligns itself with the definition society assigns to femininity.

To me people are looking down the telescope the wrong way around. It is not boys being feminized by a mysterious process but completely normal boys being born with a personality that just happens to fall on the wrong side of the artificial divide society has created.



Gender neutral would be correct for a zygote but the mammalian fetus does physically go through a stage where the external genitalia is more female then differentiates to male under genetic and hormonal influences. The zygote also briefly develops gills in the neck area. Does this mean we are all fish in denial? Many amazing things happen during the fetus development but they are a history of our evolutionary past rather than a prediction of transgenderism.

[Satrana]

Satrana, there is ongoing research here...do you have feeling as to if it starts in the womb? i think this is a wonderful thread.


Yes there is research but at this stage absolutely nothing has been proved at this point. But such is the yearning of some to believe that it all started in the womb that often they claim that science has already proved something when it has not. It is baloney when anyone states that there is any definitive evidence out there. At the moment it is all speculation. The "we were all once female" is a classic example of the wishing thinking that some latch onto.

There is a major problem with the womb theory that it's supporters always overlook. The average age when a CD becomes aware of his need is around 10 years old. Many CDs start even later. So what happened during the first 10 years? How can CDs be born in the womb and be completely unaware of this condition?

And this is the really important issue - young children cannot lie about this feeling. They have no idea what gender is or that it is taboo to CD. So if we were all born CDs then all of us at ages 3-5 would have been constantly stating EVERYDAY our feminine needs to our family. There is no why a child at that age could hide these feelings. That that is not what happens at all.

But in the rare cases of transsexuality this is exactly what does happen. As soon as the TS child learns to speak, it lets its parents know that it is of the opposite gender. And the TS child has to contend with its TG feelings everyday of its life right throughout childhood.

Based on the above we can be quite certain that CDs were not born CD at all because it would have been impossible to hide this feeling when we were young. CDs are "born" at a much later date. To seal this argument you need only consider that most CDs report having normal boy upbringings, part of which was to consider girls as second class citizens worthy only for mocking and bullying. Most CDs report that before their CDing need arose, that last thing they would ever want to become was a girl. Again this reiterates the argument that there was no hidden femininity within us dating back to the womb.

As far as the nature debate goes I never understood why people have to conjure up mysterious events to make us more prevalent to becoming a CD. From abnormal hormone washes, birth control pills, the wishes of a mother for a daughter etc, there is always a need to find a definitive reason why "something went wrong" This seems to me to be an unnecessary quest. The behaviors that society artificially divides between the two genders are all normal human behaviors that everyone possess. Nature will automatically, through the law of averages, produce numerous boys whose personality matrix aligns itself with the definition society assigns to femininity.

To me people are looking down the telescope the wrong way around. It is not boys being feminized by a mysterious process but completely normal boys being born with a personality that just happens to fall on the wrong side of the artificial divide society has created.

[Schatten Lupus]

There is a case study that strongly implies it is indeed genetic. In this study, two twin boys where born, circumcised, and one suffered a botch circumcision. A doctor claimed that if you started to raise a boy as a girl early enough, the boy could grow up acting and behaving like a normal girl. To make a long story short, the parents took the advice of the doctor and raised their son as a daughter, and their "daughter" identified as male, and began to live as male once he was told what had happened.

[Kate Simmons]

The rain in Spain stays mainly on the plain.:)

[JustWendy]

Suzanne - I keep coming back just to read your latest contributions - you keep me laughing. You're a pip (do people still say that?)

Wendy

[Mya Summers]

Me personally believe that it does start in the womb. My wife and I where flipping through the channels one night and came across the Tyra Banks show and it was dealing with this issue. She had a few children on there that at an early age told their parents the where not boy's but girl's, and that the girl's where boy's. The parent's started going with the childs decision and let them be the way they wanted to be. And these children started this at around 3-4 years of age, and when she had them, on the show they where between 10-13. And the parent's did not treat them any differently and neither did Tyra. It's good that some people are starting to show the world that CDer's and TG's are not freaks or "psycho's" but people as well that just change who they want to be. Maybe just maybe people will start looking at as in a good way versus a bad way.

[Vickii*]

It doesn't happen in the womb. It's established during a pre-verbal stage in your life, before you even have full recollection. This is what my therapists and psychiatrists tell me.

I don't think it has anything to do with birth order either. I'm the oldest sibling in my family. There goes that theory.

[JustWendy]

It doesn't happen in the womb. It's established during a pre-verbal stage in your life, before you even have full recollection. This is what my therapists and psychiatrists tell me.

I don't think it has anything to do with birth order either. I'm the oldest sibling in my family. There goes that theory.

Vickii - what specifically did the therapists have to say about this pre-verbal stage? Were we receiving non-verbal signals from our mothers? Subtle behaviors on their part that weren't intended to have this affect on us? I think I lean more toward nature, but I'd like to hear what they were getting at.

Wendy

[PetiteDuality]

I have a theory about my crossdressing.

My father used to make fun of me for how I sucked at sports. He didn't mean to be cruel, but kids don't take jokes or irony as adults do.

I also was a short and weak kid, and kids used to make fun of me. A common insult when you are a young boy is to be called "girl"

Girls didn't have this pressure (they have some others, of course).

I think I started feeling more comfortable fantasizing about being a girl. When I tried girl's clothes for the first time I felt the magic. I was 7 or 8 by the time. At that age, it was not a sexual thing, but I felt just happy and thrilled.

In summary: I think that my feeling of inadequacy as a boy made me crossdress

[Hali]

Am beginning to enjoy this thread no more bored............some replies are amazing............wow!

[StephanieH]

Don't know, but I've always been this way, and looking back, I think the debate has some merit. I was always drawn to traditionally "girl" things when I was a boy, and still am.

Interestingly, my mother miscarried a girl rather late-term (I think she was about five months along). Within six months, she was pregnant again with me. Don't know if there's anything to that, but hey, it's a thought. :straightface:

[Laura_Stephens]

I am not a medical person, but I do remember reading something about a correlation between being transgendered and the mother taking DES during pregnancy.

[Byanca]

research has shown that not only genes, but the hormonal environment of the womb can impact upon gender characteristics. for example, if you are a younger son, preceded by a male sibling, you're more likely to be homosexual. If you're preceded by multiple male siblings, the odds increase. So,I surmise that it may also be possible that in boys with one or more older male siblings might also tend to exhibit a range of more feminine characteristics. No specific evidence is available on this, that I know of.

4 boys with us. 3-4 years between each. I'm nr3, and only 1 year behind the second...

My guess is that the hormon levels didn't have enough time to normalize.

The gene aspect is most likely random.

So it seems I got them both, both gene and hormone abnormality further away from the norm then what is common..

[NikiMichelle]

Well I think we are having a good time with this one.

There seems to be a real split amognst us all:

1 - Its' nature and in the womb;
2 - It's nuture and what happened after birth in our lives;
3 - It's both nature and nurture;
4 - It's 'who cares? I am what I am' - the Popeye theory;
5 - It's the comedians - laughter is the best medicine theory.

Keep the comments coming all!!

Me?, I'm in camp #3......

[Missy]

for me it was a choise i made along time ago to do things and wear cloths to be excepted and loved this did not happen in the womb gut out in the real world

[bimini1]

Dunno, toss up. I can honestly say my first experiences were at 3 to 4 yrs of age. What must have been on my mind?

What does that tell you? Still dunno.

But, each of us can only go on our own experiences when attempting to answer the nature/nuture dilemma.

[Schatten Lupus]

Here is a link to the case study I mentioned. I looked for any actual scientific journals of it, for professional opinions, and then I remembered you have to pay for those.
http://articles.latimes.com/2004/may/13/local/me-reimer13

[Sewing_Sophie]

I think... On the one hand I like to think there's something innate there that predisposes at least some of us towards crossdressing. On the other hand, I find if I take those thoughts too far, it puts a lot of pressure on me to Find Out Who I Am (TM).

So, if some of us like to crossdress because we have active imaginations, a sense of fun, and personalities that don't match the arbitrary idea of masculinity that modern western society has, and other do it because their brains got less T than the XY average during a crucial phase of development, and for others still it's sort of a bit of both, then that's OK with me, and I'd rather not have to worry about which one of those I am.

[Satrana]

There is a case study that strongly implies it is indeed genetic.

The famous David Reimer case always used by those who believe in the genetic/womb theories.

Unfortunately a detailed examination of the case disproves the idea that David rejected his gender based in some internal gender wiring. Here are some points to consider:

David had his botched circumcision at 18 months and the decision to raise him as a girl made at 2 years of age. By this time David already had a male identity. It was far too late to attempt gender reassignment.

David was an identical twin which are always the same sex since they are clones of each other. David learned this fact and questioned how could he possibly be female.

David never had a vagina. His botched circumcision left him with a small rump of a penis. So his genitals were always male in appearance.

Despite the absence of testosterone David had a clear masculine appearance. As he aged this masculine appearance became more pronounced and of course he could compare this with his twin brother. Imagine looking at the mirror image of yourself in your twin....but your twin is of the opposite gender.

Every year David had to travel hundreds of miles to be interviewed by Dr Money who stupidly tried to directly intervene and instruct David he should only play with dolls and wear dresses etc. David feared and hated Dr Money and rejected his instructions. Dr Money became increasingly overzealous and later David accused him of mental abuse.

Based on the above it is hardly surprising David knew there was something wrong. He was clearly a wrong candidate to attempt gender reassignment.

What is always ignored by the womb/genetic believers is this important fact - Dr Money handled several cases of baby gender reassignment. In all his other cases the child accepted its new gender. I guess you can call that an inconvenient truth.


It doesn't happen in the womb. It's established during a pre-verbal stage in your life, before you even have full recollection. This is what my therapists and psychiatrists tell me. Yes this is the best explanation of primary transsexuality.

We mistakenly believe that a child's understanding coincides with its ability to speak. A baby's first words are random mumblings so we assume this is indicative of its mental state. This is incorrect. A baby is in a constant state of learning and interpretation. It can understand language a long,long time before it can utter its first word.

It is believed that the first and most important task a baby performs is to understand identity - both self-identity and the identity of its parents and siblings who are its primary care-givers and protectors. This focus on establishing identity means it becomes aware early on that there are males and females. So as it forms its own self-identity during the first two years of its life, it will assign a gender to itself.

The question is what happens if a baby mistakenly, for whatever reason, assigns the wrong gender to itself. Since it cannot yet speak this cannot be corrected by the parents. The baby's self-identity becomes cemented into place long before it is able to communicate its feelings and it is impossible to reverse.

[msniki48]

QUOTE=Satrana;2037179]
There is a major problem with the womb theory that it's supporters always overlook. The average age when a CD becomes aware of his need is around 10 years old. Many CDs start even later. So what happened during the first 10 years? How can CDs be born in the womb and be completely unaware of this condition?

And this is the really important issue - young children cannot lie about this feeling. They have no idea what gender is or that it is taboo to CD. So if we were all born CDs then all of us at ages 3-5 would have been constantly stating EVERYDAY our feminine needs to our family. There is no why a child at that age could hide these feelings. That that is not what happens at all.

This is for Cd'ers as you say... i was grabing my sisters things at about 5 as she was 3 yrs younger...after being told NO thats for girls enough i learned that is not to be done. young children cannot lie about their needs at that age...but unless we are really far into the female side of the matrix [as you describe] we are going to do as we are told...[ back then i'd get my butt beat. so if nurture was going to do anything it would stifle me for yrs until i could figure out...i could do this in private...secretly


But in the rare cases of transsexuality this is exactly what does happen. As soon as the TS child learns to speak, it lets its parents know that it is of the opposite gender. And the TS child has to contend with its TG feelings everyday of its life right throughout childhood.

in this generation...it is the 1st generation of children that don't get their asses kicked for doing something socially unacceptable...so yes they let their feeling be heard...loudly

Based on the above we can be quite certain that CDs were not born CD at all because it would have been impossible to hide this feeling when we were young. CDs are "born" at a much later date. To seal this argument you need only consider that most CDs report having normal boy upbringings, part of which was to consider girls as second class citizens worthy only for mocking and bullying. Most CDs report that before their CDing need arose, that last thing they would ever want to become was a girl. Again this reiterates the argument that there was no hidden femininity within us dating back to the womb.

their are many Cd'ers here that simply love the feel of the clothes for sexual reasons...get off then take off the clothes... that could be considered demeaning to women, like some of the coments above....bullying the girls etc. not every CD'er is TG or TS... But typically all Tg an TS people Cross dress at some point to present as women. [just different reasons

As far as the nature debate goes I never understood why people have to conjure up mysterious events to make us more prevalent to becoming a CD. From abnormal hormone washes, birth control pills, the wishes of a mother for a daughter etc, there is always a need to find a definitive reason why "something went wrong" This seems to me to be an unnecessary quest. The behaviors that society artificially divides between the two genders are all normal human behaviors that everyone possess. Nature will automatically, through the law of averages, produce numerous boys whose personality matrix aligns itself with the definition society assigns to femininity.


in this paragraph...You kind of agree with the testasterone wash ....how do you think we get the matrix the timing of the wash and the amount gives you your matrix...the only problem is...the concept of "SOMETHING WENT WRONG" is society's problem..this is where i agree with you. it is natural...just unaccepted by those transphobia people you speak of.

To me people are looking down the telescope the wrong way around. It is not boys being feminized by a mysterious process but completely normal boys being born with a personality that just happens to fall on the wrong side of the artificial divide society has created.

I agree they fall on the female side...society says its the wrong side

they got there naturally...they held it back for yrs [ self loathing imparted by society


The zygote also briefly develops gills in the neck area. Does this mean we are all fish in denial? Many amazing things happen during the fetus development but they are a history of our evolutionary past rather than a prediction of transgenderism.[/QUOTE]

Without the T wash...every fetus would be female. " period."

So yes i believe there is alot of research that needs to be done... and they are theories for now. but i can't imagine for a minute why i would choose to be so different and risk eveyrthing....there must be something deeper for me....

i must say you really make us think...but i am glad we don't all agree....this would have been a lousy thread.:D

Thank you so much for your contribution:love:

[Kitty Sue]

A wee bit of both I think, yes a comination for me. :)

[Schatten Lupus]

Myself, when I was very young, I had an attraction towards girly things, but having an older brother and sister, and knowing that I was a boy, I knew what boys and girls do, and not do girly things. Even to the point that I did not dress up as cowboys with other boys because playing dress up was for girls. I was three or four at this point in time.
It wasn't necessarily that I was lying, but more that I was scared of being ridiculed.

[Dragster]

From birth, I played happily with boy's toys, Mecanno, train sets, model aircraft etc. and loved helping my dad with car maintenance; then went on to take an engineering degree. I never had a yen to get connected with anything girly, and I still don't; except clothes!

About 10-12 years old, I began to be attracted by what girls wore, especially the tight skirts and high heels of the mid 50's. That's not surprising, they were worn to attract red blooded males! Up to then, I'd no wish to wear them myself.

At that time, my mother wore hookside corsets. She never let me see her in one (she was a bit prudish), but on drying day, they were hanging on the rack. I've no idea what prompted me to put one on, but it was rather tight, and the excitement of the pressure on my penis resulted in my very first orgasm, and I've been hooked (no pun) on the thrill of wearing women's clothes (especially ones I consider sexy) ever since. But I've not the slightest interest in anything else girly, and I'm very happy being a guy, doing guy things, as long as I can satisfy my craving to CD once in a while.

I believe that "corset moment" was a trigger, maybe an imprinting moment, but was I predisposed to get addicted to wearing female clothes by a hormone imbalance in my mother's womb when that part of my brain was wired? And why did it not extend to anything else girly? There was certainly no nurture involved. I had a brother, no sisters, and all cousins my age were male, so if it didn't come from the womb, then where did it come from?

Sorry, there's more questions than answers!
Tony

[Byanca]

It's fun to muse on why. But what is is. And nothing can change that.

Regarding kids. Some internalize trauma. Others express it. The latter group is the lucky ones, they will get help. That's how it is with all things.

People are also reactive. So changes can occur at any age. Latent genes, external influences. Not easy to say.

But it does matter to people that have a visual experience of reality. And I believe everyone needs to be part of the mass consiousness that I think create how we experience life. So as long is these matters stay binary for most it's an issue that will dominate our lifes. And is as real as a migrene

I think we can safely say that TG/TS is just as valid as the idea of man and woman. The phenomena have been known as long as men and women have been known. Who knows even what caused the separation, and for how long it's going to be in effect. But as long as the separation is in effect, I'm positive there will always be TG. No matter what environment it is.

So it's really just to make the best out of this. It's real, wishing does not make it go away. Better just to accept it.

The challenge is to make the public accept it. It's like with aliens. If you have not seen one, it's rather hard to believe they exist.

Or with migrenes. If someone who never had one and never heard of headace is being told by another person descrive an atomic bomb like pain. You'd be hard pressed to believe it, untill you see them in agony.

[Satrana]

Without the T wash...every fetus would be female. " period." No. The gender neutral fetus develops gonads which will turn into either testes or ovaries. There is an equivalent estrogen wash to feminize the fetus or else the gonads will not develop into ovaries.

It is wrong to believe that fetuses will automatically turn into females in the absence of a testosterone wash. That was an old concept that was proved incorrect decades ago.


but i can't imagine for a minute why i would choose to be so different and risk eveyrthing....there must be something deeper for me....

It is really nothing to do with choice. Children have no appreciation of the nature of gender and how gender roles developed. Children had no ability to psycho-analyze their feelings. They just have feelings that they want to act upon.

This is why we have difficulties understanding where our transgendered feelings come from. We don't remember underlying feelings because they are not a specific event that gets its own memory. In the case of CDs it is particularly puzzling why we suddenly become a CD without any obvious event to trigger it and without any thoughts beforehand about wanting to be a girl. In actuality we had feelings that we don’t specifically recall.

Transgenderness develops due to how we relate to both gender roles. We have underlying feelings about how we feel uneasy or inadequate about our prescribed gender and note the apparent advantages of the other side. If only I were a girl then (fill in the blank of what facet is most attractive to you) and my uneasy feelings would disappear and I would be much happier.

[Sandra65]

This is a massive point of difference between my SO and I. She believes I choose to CD because of issues in my infancy (that I have no recollection of). while I feel that I was born this way.

[susan_]

If it were genetic, then twins ought to have similar desires to CD over time. If it were an environmental factor in the womb, then twins ought to have similar desires to CD over time. If it were an environmental factor in early childhood then twins should show similar inclinations to CD. The exception being the rare twins separated at birth (adoption, etc.).

Does anyone know of studies looking at the correlation between twins wanting to CD? What about twins being TS?

With enough subjects, even sibling correlations would yield a lot of valuable information. A brief investigation (literature search) on my part a while back didn't really shed much light on this (however, I don't have good access to a decent library anymore so can't look up references).

[Byanca]

Does anyone know of studies looking at the correlation between twins wanting to CD? What about twins being TS?

That's really interesting. There is no twins here?

[Satrana]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/09/60minutes/main1385230.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

Here is a CBS report on two young male twins, one wants to be a girl, the other is a normal boy. Annoyingly the text explains this is terms of homosexuality which just shows how ignorant the world is. The articles also mentions another set of identical adult twins, one gay the other straight.

Problem is this can be interpreted both ways. Since they share the same genes and were exposed to the same womb environment and hormone washes, the twins seem to provide concrete proof that it cannot be nature but only nurture.

However nature believers counter with the fact that since the twins are brought up in the same environment then it cannot be nurture either. (but without offering an explanation how twins can different while still fetuses).

However this second idea is a flawed explanation. There is far less chance of variation in the womb than there is living in the same house. After all all brothers and sisters in every family occupy the same environment and we all do our separate things. One brother can be watching TV while the other is outside playing football. Living in the same space does not mean there cannot be significant variation in experiences.

Twins are still individuals and so will end up doing and enjoying different things. To me gender differences are to do with how the individual interprets the world and relating that back to match needs and wants. And interpretation happens after you are born.

[Byanca]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/09/60minutes/main1385230.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

Here is a CBS report on two young male twins, one wants to be a girl, the other is a normal boy. Annoyingly the text explains this is terms of homosexuality which just shows how ignorant the world is. The articles also mentions another set of identical adult twins, one gay the other straight.

Problem is this can be interpreted both ways. Since they share the same genes and were exposed to the same womb environment and hormone washes, the twins seem to provide concrete proof that it cannot be nature but only nurture.

However nature believers counter with the fact that since the twins are brought up in the same environment then it cannot be nurture either. (but without offering an explanation how twins can different while still fetuses).

However this second idea is a flawed explanation. There is far less chance of variation in the womb than there is living in the same house. After all all brothers and sisters in every family occupy the same environment and we all do our separate things. One brother can be watching TV while the other is outside playing football. Living in the same space does not mean there cannot be significant variation in experiences.

Twins are still individuals and so will end up doing and enjoying different things. To me gender differences are to do with how the individual interprets the world and relating that back to match needs and wants. And interpretation happens after you are born.
Not sure if it's hard science. But if the egg with identical twins are split at a late stage, you get 'mirror' twins. One is left handed and one is right handed. Hair curls in opposite direction etc. They are still identical. Maybe this can apply selectively. If so, case solved I guess.

20% of identical twins have one left handed and one right handed twin, from a note I read.

Here is one theory

Many people assume that hand preference is a genetic trait. However, that is not the case. A quick survey of identical twins will confirm the discrepancy. Researches have studied to find a genetic link. A Canadian study found that even when both parents are left handed, their offspring are more likely to be right handed.

There are many theories as to why people display a preference for one hand over the other. One theory projects that position in the womb determines handedness. The ear that faces out of the womb receives the most input and stimulates development of the coordinating side of the brain. This would explain handedness in twins, since they're likely to lie in opposing directions in the womb.

[makin' it real]

I used to think my own crossdressing was obviously genetic. I started at 5 years old, so how could it be anything else. Right? Then I found out mom had given up my only sister to adoption at birth when I was 4 years old. :eek: I didn't know about this until much later. (Our family is very good at hiding things!) When I did find out, I realized I could have been trying to replace the little girl my mom felt badly about not keeping.

I get really confused when people come down strongly on either side of the nature vs nurture debate because to me it always seems to be a both/and instead of an either/or. It's sort of like the wave/particle expressions of light. If you look for a wave, light bends around obstructions and interferes with itself just like a wave. If you look for a particle, well by golly you find it has size and momentum. Smack! It's a particle.

Thing is, light is neither a wave nor a particle, but can appear in either of those forms. We really don't know what light is, we just know some of its characteristics and that there's more yet to learn. Similarly, we don't yet know the "causes" of TG/TS/crossdressing but we know some of its influences and characteristic expressions. What we haven't yet begun to explore are the more esoteric dimensions of the self - like who we are as souls and what influence that has on gender identity and sexual expression. Let alone how soul decisions might affect what parents we choose, what body type we choose, and what kind of relationship situations we want our parents to have that might make a difference in which emotion-related chemicals our moms bathe us in in utero. Or the possible influence of shared human consciousness going through its own developmental stages.

I guess I'd just say that while it's fun to explore the many aspects of nature and nurture, there's a whole lot more we might want to look at as well. :2c:

[NikiMichelle]

As I started to CD at age 4-5 I still wonder what drove me to even think of putting my sisters leotards on and then doing it???

I beleive it must be a bit of each but that by definition then it must always be nature then nurture in that order.

P.S. I don't lay awake at night worrying about though. (I lay awake thinking about what outfit I will wear next!)