Women wearing mens cloths

[darcyann]

Hello

Darcy Ann again. This post probally will get many different post. I have alot of women friends and the question they ask me why do men wear womens cloths. For that to be answered. I always ask them why do women wear mens cloths and it is different with many women. Oh we do not wear mens cloths, or it is something as we are staying with the times. So why do women think it is not wrong for them to wear mens cloths. But if we wear there cloths or what ever we are freaks. I personally do not see a problem with either sex wearing the opposite sex clothing, than again that is just me.



Love


Darcy Ann

[Billijo49504]

Hi and first of all, it's just a piece of cloth. I don't know what the big deal is, I wear both. Second, they have been doing it for more years. It really started in the forties, during the war. That's WW II. When the men went to war, someone had to stay home and build the war machines. That's where the women came in. They used to call her Rosie the Riviter. She couldn't work in the factories in a dress or skirt, so she wore pants, actually overhauls and a shirt, mens attire, to do a mans job. And by doing so, she was being patriotic.
But on the other hand, if a man slipped on a nice silky dress, nylons and a cute pair of heels, he couldn't use the excuse, he had to make coffee for the boss. I don't know how you could say he was patriotic. Not quite the same.
I guess we have a lot of catching up to do.

[Ava Mouse]

Darcy Ann,

I've a theory that women 'crossdress' more then men do. In order for women to succeed in the corporate/business world, they had to take on masculine styles and attitudes.

Think about it, how many notably feminine women are at the top of companies today? Except for maybe fashion companies or Martha Stewart, I can't think of any.

So, while they don't dress to PASS as men, they do put on masculine mindsets to interact with the male dominated worlds of busines, politics, etc. Women need to 'pass' as men on the business level.

Being a quiet man at work, I often have to take on macho attitudes to make my views known or motivate other people.

Point is that women often have to 'wear' a masculine mindset to have a career.

Women CD to act like men to 'survive' in the business world.

Men CD to look like women for recreation.

Imagine a female dominated society, to work among a majority of women, would we not want to blend in and be accepted as a peer? Would we not want to conform to succeed? If we did not look or act the part, wouldn't we be taken less seriously?

Hmmm.... More thoughts on this?

[emmicd]

I just read a few pages from the crossdressing book by Helen Boyd called My Husband Betty.

I enjoyed reading the first few pages I decided to order it.

The author portrays a scenario where the wife misses her husband who is away so she rummages through his clothes and tries on his shirts and boxers as she lies in them on their bed. She enjoys the scent and the feel of wearing them. If people got a glimpse of this they wouldn't give it a second thought and actually would find the woman very attractive in her husband shirts and boxers.

Now if the scenario was changed and a guy missed his wife and was rummaging through her drawers and closet for lingerie and clothes and tried on her bra, panties and blouse and enjoyed the scent of her clothes while wearing them and lying in them on their bed people would view it as offensive and sick!

The guy would be judged in a negative way while the woman would be seen as stylish and very attractive!

It is a double standard!

Emmi

[darcyann]

Hello

That is what, most people think that it is wrong for a man to wear womens cloths and not wrong for a woman to wear mans cloths. I do believe in the coparate world that women have to do alot more than men to succeed. But if it was reverse and women were like what men are today. Would women accept men wearing womens busisness cloths to succeed. I say no because most women think it is offensive if we men wear there cloths on a day to day basic.

Love


Darcy Ann

[Tiffanygirl]

Hello

Darcy Ann again. This post probally will get many different post. I have alot of women friends and the question they ask me why do men wear womens cloths. For that to be answered. I always ask them why do women wear mens cloths and it is different with many women. Oh we do not wear mens cloths, or it is something as we are staying with the times. So why do women think it is not wrong for them to wear mens cloths. But if we wear there cloths or what ever we are freaks. I personally do not see a problem with either sex wearing the opposite sex clothing, than again that is just me.



Love


Darcy Ann

Wooo I'm fully with you there girlfriend!! yeah preach it!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :D

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

A couple points...

Women earned the right to wear masculine clothing by getting out there and doing it. It wasn't that long ago, the Deut. 22:5 was used to proclaim that women in pants were an abomination.

Ava makes a good point about women taking on masculine styles and attitudes to succeed in the working world. On a related note, I think some masculine woman use the greater flexibility of women's fashion to satisfy that side of themselves by dressing more "practical," wearing boy-cut hair, little or no make-up, etc. But in my experience they usually see it as not being "girly" rather than dressing "masculine." Nor do they strap and pack, so it's not quite equivalent to the typical cross-dresser, who wants to pass as a woman and wouldn't be caught dead without wig and breast forms.

Intent makes the cross-dresser more than the clothes. If it was really just about wearing skirts and make-up as guys, we'd probably look a lot more like Eddie Izzard.

Finally, it's a reflection of the sexism and homophobia still present in our society. Adopting the dress of someone who's considered more powerful is empowering. But people are going to look at is strange to want to be like "second class citizens." Plus being "unmanly" is still associated with being gay and being feminine. So even among people who should know better, there's an assumption that a cross-dresser is unmanly and gay.

[Helana]

Ava

Have to agree with you, women are not crossdressing like we do but they are taking advantage of the male image when they wear men's clothing.

There are some women who definitely make a conscious effort to masculine themeslves and corporate women are good examples.

But most women are not in highly competitive business environments but they still wear mens clothes 99% of the time. In this instance I would suggest they are de-emphasing their femininity to become a neutral gender.

There are 2 reasons - firstly most women once they get past their teens and early tweenties think they have lost their looks and believe that they would be "talked" about if they continued to look overly feminine. Their lack of belief in themsleves makes them de-feminize themselves. Basically "my butt/thighs are too large so I cannot wear skirts anymore"

Secondly, both men and women tend to consider feminine women as primarily sensual beings and are not taken seriously - the dumb blond stereotype. Women learn that they are listened to better to if they de-feminize themselves. Its part of maturing from the fun-loving girl into an adult woman.

I think women wearing mens clothes is as much about women moving away from a feminine image as women moving towards a masculine image. Either way they are mentally crossdressing without going to the extreme of true crossdressers who adopt the complete image including changing their body shape.

At the end of the day, it remains an hypocracy for women to disapprove of men wearing feminine clothing, often to the point of utter disgust. Men have adjusted to women's changing behavor and wardrobe but there has been no corresponding movement in women's attitudes to men. But then that is largely our own fault as we have kept ourselves hidden in the closet and have done nothing to push for changes in society.

[Clare]

Hey, i'd just like to point out that women are NOT wearing mens clothes. They are wearing a STYLE of clothing based on mens designs. There is an inherent difference between the two in this respect!

I have womens pant suits myself. The pants are cut to fit (usually very snugly) the femminine body shape at the waist and hips. The jackets are cut narrow at the waist, wider near the hipline, the collar/lapels have many different designs from plunging at the breast to button up at the neckline.

C'mon girls, be real! Just because ladies skirt/pant suit styles are reminiscent of traditional mens suits, it doesn't mean its a straight swap! The ladies versions have a definate femminine appearance to them.

Christine

[Abraxas]

Yes, Christine makes an interesting point...
Women generally dress in clothing made for women, but styled after mens' clothes.
Womens' jeans are still womens' clothes, even though they are trousers.
If a bloke wears a kilt, it is technically a "man's skirt."

But here's an interesting thing Eddie Izzard said (sorry to bring him up YET AGAIN, but he makes so many good points): "They're not womens clothes; they're my clothes. I bought them." They're only womens' clothes if they belong to a woman and you borrow them, essentially.

I say, who cares? It really is just cloth pieced together with bits of string. Then again, times have changed. In the Renaissance period it was the men who wore tights and high heels, not the women. Yeah?

[Jamie M]

Precisley , there are no such things really as womens and mens clothes , there just clothes. What once was worn by one is now worn by the other .

I would like to make an assumption here that for most of us it's not necessarily about the clothes themselves but about the way being in those clothes makes you feel. Thoughts ?

[Helana]

Its not just about the way you feel in the clothes, it is also about how others feel about you wearing them.

Today we wear clothes for decoration, we want to convey a message to others. The reason we stay in the closet is because we know cding is socially unacceptable and could have serious implications. So instead we usually have to be content remaining inside our houses.

When we look at ourselves in the mirror, we are admiring the visual message the clothing conveys, in a sense the male us is admiring this new person - the female us - whether this be sexy, classy, demure etc. The projection of this new personality works for us because our male minds are assessing the female image.

Clothes are not just pieces of cloth sewn together, they are part of us and inform others how we would like to be treated. When a man puts on trousers or a woman pulls on a skirt, they do not get any thrill from this, if they are looking in a mirror it is to check that everything is arranged ok and fits correctly etc. Only cders get a thrill from checking themsleves in the mirror.

The hypocrisy is presently women get treated fairly no matter what style they wear, but men dont get the same rights. It is straightforward discrimination.

[Abraxas]

Very true Helana. It is descrimination. If only we could do what we want and not be judged (I mean we as a human race, in general)... I mean, people who wear something "unusual" aren't doing anybody any harm.

And it is about the way the clothes make you feel. I've banged on about this, but I really believe that the clothing is simply an outward "display" (if you will-- it's 6 am and I can't think in words) of a perception we have of ourselves, feelings we have, etc.

And it's not entirely true that women get treated fairly no matter what they wear... Think of the story of Brandon Teena (there are countless others like his)... I know an FTM who was recently threatened in a parking lot-- 2 guys approached him and said "I really hate those women who dress like guys."
I've been hassled plenty (and beaten, slandered... you name it, it's happened to me (excluding serious crime such as assault with a deadly weapon)).

And... I think that people do dress certain ways to feel certain ways. Like, women may put on a short skirt, heels, and low- cut top in order to feel more sexy or confident, or what- have- you. Men may put on a suit to feel more powerful, or to be taken seriously at their job... Trouble is, women have both options (putting on a smart suit to look more classy or professional, or dressing sexy), but there are very few things that men have the option of wearing which make them feel hot or sexy, apart from the club scenes, etc.

So yes, there is a bias, and there is unfairness...

I really do think though, that the more out CDs/ TGs there are, the more accepted it will become. It just takes enough people to have the cajones to be out and do what they want without fear, and without caring what other people think (at least on the outside), and it will be only a matter of time before CDs/ TGs are widely accepted.

But that's just my opinion; I could be wrong. :)

[Wendy me]

ok my .02$ worth woman wearing men's clouthing ????? thay do it for simple reasons
because thay want to , because thay can , and because thay express the freedom to simply weare what ever thay want without careing...this whole issue will drive to nutts if you try to sort it out ...it is because it is.....if you need it explaned then you will never understand.....it just is ....

[LaceLuvr's GG]

I don't see a difference in me going into the closet and throwing on one of my SO's shirts to him doing the same to me. I think of it more of a comfort issue... most GG's I know can't wait to get out of their bra after a long day at work, where as a CD can't wait to get home into one. I think it's stupid how some girls react to CD'ing. If they stood back and thought about how many times they've worn men's clothing they would have to agree. But of course, they wouldn't.. because the response would be... "It's just not the same"... WHY?????

[Helana]

I think it's stupid how some girls react to CD'ing. If they stood back and thought about how many times they've worn men's clothing they would have to agree. But of course, they wouldn't.. because the response would be... "It's just not the same"... WHY?????

Because they have been socially conditioned to think there is a difference and have never needed to think deeply about the subject to adjust their stance. Men in dresses are weak, gay, perverts, to be mocked at. These are just irrational fears. Why would women NOT think that a man would like to wear something pretty for a change? Answer - because they have never thought of the question before.

I have a very pragmatic view of this. I realize that there are all sorts of people in this world. Most are good people and mean to do good to others but have never bothered to question the conventions they grew up with. And their traditional values are typically not tolerent of others.

Still one billion people will go to sleep tonight on an empty stomach, some will not wake up. Who cares if your next door neighbor cannot understand the subtleties of crossdressing?

I can live with the fact that many people are content to live with a blinkered outlook. They are not bad people at all, they just have not thought things through. But that is true of everybody. What do I know about black issues? What do I know about being disabled?

Until you are forced to confront issues head on usually because of a family member, we all tend to follow conventions even when they are obviously wrong if we had bothered to really think about it.

[JamieDP]

Wendy -
I can at .02 cents and say I am on your side of the fence. Simply put they can, they will if the style works for them. It doesn't matter if its for comfort, for need, etc. In a restaurant when my gf is cold, I offer a jacket and she takes it with out hesitation. Don't really see the reverse. She took the jacket b/c it was cold. She wears my boxers because all her panties are dirty. She buys mens running sneakers on occassion because she doesn't like the styles available to her in the women's department.

I've known others to wear and buy mens jeans (not those styled after mens) but mens jeans because they found a pair to fit better...or even to go camping.

It is a piece of cloth.

I mean men wore tights and skirts not too many centuries ago. Men wore wigs...they still do in gov't in England I believe Is all of Parlaiment(sp?) CD'ing?) or just aquiring the attire that is traditionally acceptable for them to go to work?

[ChristineRenee]

ok my .02$ worth woman wearing men's clouthing ????? thay do it for simple reasons
because thay want to , because thay can , and because thay express the freedom to simply weare what ever thay want without careing...this whole issue will drive to nutts if you try to sort it out ...it is because it is.....if you need it explaned then you will never understand.....it just is ....So many good responses to this thread ladies. My thoughts on this largely tend to agree with my sis Wendy. It is because it is. Much of this goes back to WW II when women had to leave the home to work in the factories doing the jobs that were previously only done by men. This was the beginning of this cultural change. I also agree with Ava that women pretty much had to dress more like men to compete in the business world...whereas men dress like women for recreation.

There is plenty of unfairness on both sides of the fence. Women have had to overcome the "2nd class citizen" status that living in a man's world shackled them with. Is THIS fair and just? Hell no! Men have been socialized and conditioned since birth to never express any qualities that would be considered feminine. Again...is this fair or just?

I'm not sure that the grass is greener on either side of the fence really. Being an individual, and being who you really are, is to me the goal we should all be striving for anyway. Change society one person at a time. :)

[Helana]

I'm not sure that the grass is greener on either side of the fence really.

My uncle once told a joke about that saying. He said the reason why the grass is greener on the other side of the fence is because it was full of cow dung. You still want to take a walk over there? :D

The moral being of course one only sees the advantages and not the disadvantages. CDers are particularly likely to fall into that trap of seeing only the fun things about being a girl while ignoring the many problems girls encounter.

[Tamara Croft]

Hey, i'd just like to point out that women are NOT wearing mens clothes. They are wearing a STYLE of clothing based on mens designs. There is an inherent difference between the two in this respect!YAY... someone gets it :thumbsup:

I wonder how many times this topic will come up in the next year or so. I've heard so many times that 'women wear mens clothes'. But like Christine has so rightly stated, we wear a 'style' of clothing based on mens designs. You will find most designers are men, so blame them :p It's not our fault that we can wear what we like, but I feel like we get the blame for it. Like I have said before, only you can change societies view. Yes I understand that this is hard and may take another 100 years.

I wear suits, I wear trousers and sometimes I wear sweat pants. But they aren't mens, they are made for women, they are designed for women. Men and women are shaped differently. I can't ever imagine buying myself a nice pinstriped suit designed/made for a man!!! But I would buy one of the same design if it were made for a woman.

[susandrea]

All these answers are so interesting, all true in their own way.

Yes clothing is "just a piece of cloth" and yes it is also an outward expression of self.

I came across a few quotes I'd like to share with you all:

Our clothes are too much a part of us for most of us to be entirely indifferent to their condition: it is as though the fabric were indeed a natural extension of the body, or even the soul.
--Quentin Bell (1910-1996)

Fashion is more powerful than any tyrant.
--Latin saying

In olden days a glimpse of stocking
Was looked on as something shocking,
But now, God knows,
Anything goes.
--Cole Porter (1891-1964)

Vain trifles as they seem, clothes...change our view of the world and the world's view of us.
--Virginia Woolf (1882-1941)

Our only hope for the redemtion of women from the thralldom of dress lies in the belief that her hitherto limited sphere of activities has been so insufficient for her intellectual occupations that she has been forced to expand her thoughts in decorating her person, instead of enlarging her mind.
--Mercy B. Jackson (1802-1877)

Cross dressing has often been the sign of an extraordinary destiny. In many shamanistic cultures, transvestites are regarded as sorcerers or visionaries, who, because of their double nature as men dressed as women, are sources of divine authority within the community.
--Peter Ackroyd (1948)

Without black velvet breeches, what is a man?
--James Bramston (1694-1744)

It is not unusual for fashion to adopt the accidental singulaity of a person who disapproves of fashions and never suspected that his anarchistic act or his unusual get-up would originate a fad.
--Jean Cocteau (1889-1963)

I believe that as the world gets smaller and the Western world is forced to mingle with peoples from vastly different cultures who will retain their customery dress, AND PC laws are created to control derision toward alternate lifestyles which in turn encourages more people to express themselves, AND as famous people in the public eye defy convention and are not only tolerated but celebrated (like Beckham, ect.) fashion is going to take a huge leap forward, especially for men. This will only help crossdressers indirectly in that there will be so much to look at and comprehend that they won't stick out as much, but at least that's something. Then, as time goes on and customs change, well...... we'll just have to see.

If you look back throughout history there have been many, many drastic changes in the style of dress. There is no reason what-so-ever that we should assume that the styles we wear to today will even resemble what our great-grandchildren will be wearing.

:)

[susandrea]

hahahahaha---- and I just came across this article:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/337449p-288186c.html

Women's nude awakening

Oglers surround protesters

BY JIMMY VIELKIND and ROBERT F. MOORE
DAILY NEWS WRITERS

Jill (Phoenix) Feeley was among a number of topless women in Columbus Circle yesterday protesting her Aug. 4 arrest for going half naked. Cops had to quell excited crowds.

Topless women on skates, bikes and foot drew a surging crowd of grateful gawkers in Columbus Circle yesterday when they doffed their shirts to affirm the right to bare a lot more than arms.

The 10 or so women gathered and showed nearly all to protest the arrest of Jill (Phoenix) Feeley, who said she was taken into custody this month after going half naked on the lower East Side.

But Feeley and friends soon found out that taking such a revealing stance in New York can be risky.

"It got hot, then it got rainy," said Feeley, 25.

Then at least a dozen drooling men rushed through barricades and surrounded the women shortly before 4:30 p.m. Police quickly intervened, gaining the gratitude of Feeley.

"The cops were good today," she said.

But she was still steamed about her previous encounter with police.

Jeffrey Rothman, Feeley's attorney, said he plans to file a civil rights lawsuit against the city for the Aug. 4 arrest.

He said two police officers told her to put on her top and she refused. She spent 12 hours in custody, but wasn't charged, Rothman said.

"We have to affirm women's right to be top-free, just as the other half of the population," he said.

"We're just demonstrating a right," said Feeley, a self-described "gypsy" who says she lives in an RV powered by vegetable oil.

There were no arrests yesterday. A police spokeswoman noted it's legal for women to go topless in public.

And that was fine with Bonaris Serrano, 21, an aspiring rapper from Washington Heights who checked out the protest after attending the Dominican Day Parade.

"I'm down with the feminist movement," he said. "I can dig that."

[susandrea]

OMG---Here's another "glimpse of the future"!

http://www.planetvids.com/html/Anime-Convention-Idiots.html

Three cheers for creativity!:) :thumbsup:

[Catherine in Colo]

Ava made a great point about the differences between why men wear women’s clothing and vice versa being recreation vs. necessity. Fortunately, in most circles, I think that we’ve evolved beyond the need for women to wear the clothing associated with masculinity in order display masculine attributes. And to a certain degree, men have benefited from that evolution. Men who displayed emotion or sensitivity used to be called sissies, or worse. But now, men can express themselves in ways traditionally thought to be feminine without the ‘need’ to wear the clothing that goes with it. For the majority of people in the world, that is more than enough, and clothing is now only matter of fashion, not success.

But her comment about the roles being reversed starting me thinking about the oft mentioned hypothetical world in which it is totally acceptable for a man to wear clothing associated with women, such as skirts and dresses. If we found ourselves in such a world, would we start wearing skirts to the office? Probably. But would we stop dressing in the privacy of our own homes or stop posting pictures on our websites? Probably not. That’s because in that world, shopping malls would start selling dresses ands skirts designed for men, and in doing so, we would be losing that which we sought as crossdressers in the first place.

While men's clothing can sometimes be used to highlight masculine features, such as broad shoulders or defined pecs, most mens clothing is utilitarian in design. To a much greater degree, women's clothing is designed to accentuate a woman's features, and when most crossdresses wear this clothing, we "fill out" the clothing as best we can to create the proper image. In the hypothetical new world, we would no longer need to do that, but if we didn't feel the need to do it in that world, we wouldn't do it in this world either.

I can speak with certainty only for myself, but I suspect that for most of us, you can’t separate the clothing from the gender. I believe that for most of us, it’s not just the article of clothing, but what wearing that article of clothing represents, whether it be the feminine, the forbidden, or the sensual, and all of that would be lost in translation were the rules to change.

I guess what I am saying is that even if the playing field were level and men were “allowed” to wear women’s clothing in the same way that women are "allowed" to wear men’s clothing, we’d still be right where we are.

Renee

[cdgirl]

Hello

Darcy Ann again. This post probally will get many different post. I have alot of women friends and the question they ask me why do men wear womens cloths. For that to be answered. I always ask them why do women wear mens cloths and it is different with many women. Oh we do not wear mens cloths, or it is something as we are staying with the times. So why do women think it is not wrong for them to wear mens cloths. But if we wear there cloths or what ever we are freaks. I personally do not see a problem with either sex wearing the opposite sex clothing, than again that is just me.



Love


Darcy Ann DARCEY YOU ARE SO RIGHT HOW COME WOMEN CAN WEAR SLACKS PENNY LOFFERS IVE SEEN THEM IN SUITS WITH TIES SOCKS AND ALL.BUT LET A GUY WEAR A DRESS OR A SKIRT AND HEELS WITH A JACKET.LOOK AT THAT FREAK WEIRDO OR QUEER YOU KNOW IF GIRLS CAN WEAR GUYS CLOTHES THEN WHY DO WE HAVE TO HIDE WHY CAN'T WE WEAR GIRLS CLOTHES AND BE ACCEPTED,ON THE OUTSIDE. LOVE CDGIRL.

[darcyann]

Hello all

Darcy Ann again, you know for many years I did not know what I wanted. It has taken me many years to understand all this. Yes I am kinda new to this and it is who I am. I do not intend to change my ways and views because society is telling me it is wrong that I can not do this, I can not do that. I must walk a fine line. Or I can not wear a certain piece of clothing. Yes society will never accept us 100%. What does make me really mad is that women can wear your cloths and say it is not off the wall and society accepts them. I think it has come down why society does not accept us is because we kept this hidden for many years and now we are coming out and it is getting better. I was just wondering when women first starting wearing mens cloths I am talking WW 2. Did we as men accept them for wearing cloths because they had too. Or were there alot of men who did not approve of it.


Love


Darcy Ann

[AngGG]

Hi I am pretty new here but hear me out and let me know if I am very far off track. My dh is cd and I try to be accepting and even encouraging because this is a part of who he is and I love the whole person. Now with that said on to the clothes. I think the clothes are only a small part of what society deems as unacceptable. When I don a tee shirt and jeans yes I am still me but in a tee shirt and jeans, no less fem and no more masculine. When my dh dons a pretty skirt and silky shirt he is no longer my dh but for lack of a better description my dw and girlfriend. So while yes I agree they are just clothes, pieces of fabric sewn together to make a style, they do envoke a personality change. Again, this is just an observation not a criticism.

AngGG

[Tamara Croft]

I was just wondering when women first starting wearing mens cloths I am talking WW 2. Did we as men accept them for wearing cloths because they had too. Or were there alot of men who did not approve of it.
I've taken a few snippets from this article, I think you will find quite a bit of info here. The article itself is a pretty good read.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/505095.stm

The First World War was the event that served to introduce large numbers of British women to their first pair of trousers, says Ms Harden.

Women were literally, as well as figuratively, wearing the trousers, as they temporarily took up the jobs their soldier fathers, brothers and husbands had vacated.

In the inter-war years, trousers for women became acceptable for the upper classes, and ranges of leisure and sports wear were not complete without baggy, floor brushing, light fabric ladies' trews.

By the 30s, film stars like Katharine Hepburn and Lauren Bacall had put the Hollywood stamp of glamour onto women's trousers, which during the 20s were only worn in the country or for sport.

"The Hollywood touch was very important at the time in terms of whether a look became fashionable or not," says Ms Harden.

And then the Second World War made women and utility trousers almost inseparable. Land girls and munitions workers couldn't really do their jobs in skirts - and besides, there just wasn't enough material available to waste on the non-functional.
And I found this bit quite amusing :p

The Oxford English Dictionary defines the word "skirt" as "a woman's outer garment hanging from the waist".

"Trousers" on the other hand, is not deemed to be a gender-specific word. "An outer garment reaching from the waist usually to the ankles, divided into two parts to cover the legs," says the OED.

[LaceLuvr's GG]

I can speak with certainty only for myself, but I suspect that for most of us, you can’t separate the clothing from the gender. I believe that for most of us, it’s not just the article of clothing, but what wearing that article of clothing represents, whether it be the feminine, the forbidden, or the sensual, and all of that would be lost in translation were the rules to change.

Renee


I'd like to add a lil something to that one renee. I think that was a great post by the way.

I know that when I throw on an old pair of jeans and t-shirt.. and look like a boy.. I feel rugged, ready to get dirty.. the stereotypical feeling of a boy. When I'm dressed up, ready for a night on the town..make up and hair done... the works.. I feel special, pretty.. and most of all different. I think that's where some of the problem lies. Women think that if a man dresses that way.. he may be feeling the same.. feelings that "manly" men should not feel.

How many times I hear women say that they wish there man were more understanding, more sensitive... but if they really were.. would they feel weird?? Awkward maybe?? I definately think that clothes are more than just a piece of cloth. They express our personality's. Tamara mentioned that she liked styles of clothes that are similiar to a man's. Tamara comes over to me as a very strong female.. (as I also fit into this catagory) maybe that has something to do with it. Most girls that wear nothing but baby tee's and mini shorts have a very "girlie, girlie" personality.

This may not make any sense..and I hope very much that it didn't come across as too stereotypical.. because if it did..that's not what I was going for, but I wanted to give my opinion. ;)

[~Tammy~]

There seems to be alot of emphasis here on the fact that men don't just want to wear womens clothes, they want to actually look like women too.

This is not always the case.

For example:

I like to wear skirts because I find them more comfortable than trousers or shorts.
I like long hair but as mine is already falling out I cannot grow mine to look how I would like it and so wear a wig.
I like to wear make-up and nail polish as it makes my face and hands look prettier.
I like wearing boots as I believe my legs look better in them than shoes or trainers.
I wax my legs as it feels and looks better. The same as I shave my face and chest.

I don't generally wear bra's, breast forms or extra padding. The few times I have is when I have been outside dressed and the only reason for that is that I would prefer to be as convincingly as female as possible as so avoid as much hassle. Rather than be more obviously a guy in womens clothes.

I would be perfectly happy to be able to do all these things and not worry about passing as a woman one little bit. But just to be an obvious guy in a skirt, stockings, boots, wig & make-up and not give have the stress or personal embarrasment of everyone looking and wondering why the heck a guy looks like that.

Just like a women can wear anything she wants in public and no-one bats an eyelid.

(My apologies to Abraxas if you don't find things quite so easy as that but this is from own perspective)

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

This may not make any sense..and I hope very much that it didn't come across as too stereotypical.. because if it did..that's not what I was going for, but I wanted to give my opinion. ;)

Actually I thought it made a lot of sense. I've noticed the same thing about how GGs' clothing often seems to reflect how they feel -- and how clothing at times seems like it can change their attitude.

As far as women wanting men to be more sensitive -- well the "nice guys" complaint is well-known: women say they want 'em, but end up saying "you're so nice, let's be friends" right before hopping on a Harley with a bad boy. Dunno what it all means...

[Helana]

I know that when I throw on an old pair of jeans and t-shirt.. and look like a boy.. I feel rugged, ready to get dirty.. the stereotypical feeling of a boy. When I'm dressed up, ready for a night on the town..make up and hair done... the works.. I feel special, pretty.. and most of all different. I think that's where some of the problem lies. Women think that if a man dresses that way.. he may be feeling the same.. feelings that "manly" men should not feel.



That nicely sumamries the whole point. Clothes do project our personality, they do project gender, they do send a signal to others about how we want to be treated. When a girl chooses to have a masculine wardrobe, there is an intention there which goes beyond the "trousers are more comfortable/practical" excuse.

I know of girls who have no dresses or skirts in their wardrobe whatsoever, and the colors they choose are invariably the masculine drab colors. They are not crossdressers, they are not pretending to be guys as they are quite obviously females, but they are making a clear choice NOT to present themsleves as feminine and take advantage of the gender-specific attributes we all associate with certain types of clothes.

Most women today downplay their femininity during the day by wearing masculine styled clothing then emphasize their femininity when they go out for a night on the town in a sexy LBD - and the feelings between the two modes are quite different!

[LaceLuvr's GG]

Thank you very much for the responses Darla and Helena. I was so worried that I might have sound offensive.. even though I was in NO WAY going for that aspect.

I'd like to hear more opinions from CD's and GG's on this (good or bad). I'm a big girl, I can take it if there is some disagreement on this. I'm still very new at this, so hearing all the different views is very helpful to me.

[Catherine in Colo]

SILK,

Thanks for the nice comments, and no, from my point of view, you didn't offend at all. While I did say that men have a freedom of expression that they didn't always enjoy, I think you make a very good point about the fact that there are still huge differences in this regard, and women still enjoy a far greater range when it comes to that than men.

I also agree we use clothing as an extension of our emotions, and women can use clothing as a tool in a way men still cannot. As you described, women can dress in a sterotypically "masculine" manner to enhance and project their feelings and emotions. Men have far less latitude in this regard, and you're right, women and men are still socialized to the effect that it's not usually ok for men to express themselves in the same way women do.

But, in the same way that a woman who dresses in a masculine manner is on some level seeking to channel some aspect of expression that is traditionally assoicated with men, a man who wears women clothing is trying to express himself as something other than the traditional stereotypical man. He may not be trying to be a woman, but he is trying to blur the line.

Lace and Tammy both commented on "dressing up" as being motivated, at least in part, by a desire to "feel pretty." I guess that is where the disconnect is...women are allowed to feel "grungy," and it's almost universally accepted, but we still have a long way to go before it's ok for a man to feel pretty, which is odd, because it's just a word that expresses an emotion.

While I still don't, and never will, buy into the simplistic argument that "men should be able to wear women's clothing because women can wear men's", I do think that at the core of that argument is a recognition of the fact that there is a less than rational nature to the issue behind it.

Renee

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Thank you very much for the responses Darla and Helena. I was so worried that I might have sound offensive.. even though I was in NO WAY going for that aspect.

No problem. Your comments actually reminded me of a story about when Jack Nicolson was playing the Joker in one of the Batman movies. The actor playing Batman kept pestering Nicholson, trying to figure out his motivation. Finally Nicholson just him: "Kid, sometimes you gotta let the costume do the acting."

Granted it's a chicken-and-egg situation, but I do think dressing the part often helps people (not just CDs) "feel the part" internally.

Now if you'll just promise to explain the secrets of competive dressing among women. My GG friends assure me there's a lot that most men are too uninterested in and too unobservant to notice. ;)

To Renee's point about men not allowed to be pretty. While the metrosexual revolution has given more flexibility (and women are being more vocal about wanting a well-toned, well-dressed man), men still aren't allowed to consciously show off in the same way woman can. A guy in really tight pants, or shirt left partly unbuttoned is generally regarded as sleazy. (Of course, a woman who did the same thing risks being viewed as ****ty, but there's a lot more lattitude before crossing the line.)

[JoannaDees]

Sigh. Another one of these.

Once again. Most here are not just wearing women's clothes, but are pretending to be women. Maybe you feel like it inside, whatever. Women are just wearing clothes, comfortable and functional clothes.

A woman crossdresser is trying to be a man, like Abraxas. Don't you think he'd get looks at the mall? I've seen that, an obvious woman dressing as and intending to be perceived as a man.

[Catherine in Colo]

Joanna,

I don't mean to offend, but I think you're mistaken. While the origin of this thread and some of the subsequent posts do subscribe to the same old argument that tires most of us, I think you'll find that most of the posts here seek to dig deeper into the issue and understand why it is that we, as crossdressers, feel compelled to wear women's clothing.

I'm sure many are familiar with Siobhan Curran's weblog: http://www.tranniefesto.co.uk/2005/08/10/, but over the past week, she hosted a very interesting thread that suggested that part of the reason so many crossdressers, or "trannies" seek to look like woman is because that is far more acceptable than men who simply prefer to wear a skirt. Tammy touched on this issue, commenting that it's easier for her to go out in full regalia, including stuffed bra, etc...because that is what is expected of the "ideal trannie" that Siobhan refers to. It's like there is a heirarchy within the cd/tv/tg community, in which it’s not acceptable for a man to go out wearing clothes that are made for women. But if a man MUST go out wearing women’s clothing, he has to follow the rules and dress fully in his best attempt to appear as a women so as to not confuse the issue any further.

So, while many of us, myself included, really are seeking to present a feminine image, I don't think ALL crossdressers are truly attempting to look like women. Rather, they/we are simply taking the path of least resistance in an effort to meet our individual needs.

Renee

[Helana]

Good post Renee.

I for one dont find anything exciting about silicone breats for example, and would be perfectly happy appearing in public flat-chested. I only have them to complete the whole female image to blend in more so I dont have to constantly explain myself.

We are all programmed to look for stereotypical role models to copy and the CD community is not exempt. Personally I don't believe CDing is about trying to present ourselves as a real women, it is a role model we have deluded ourselves about for a long time. If you are a transexual or desire to go full time then you do need to learn everything about behaving and sounding like a real women. But for the rest of us, we should be happy just to express our femininity to whatever degree we feel most comfortable with.

I believe that most CDers are alot closer to ordinary women who like to wear masculine clothing than is apparent. But when we encouter the TG community we get bombarded with the concept that our goal is to pretend to be a real woman - which is attractive to us as we have all fantasied about this. There are all sorts of stories, gadgets, products and training DVDs all aimed at this imaginary goal.

This is one reason why CDing can be addiditive because it is fueled by fantasies. But fantasies are not representative of reality at all. In truth we just want to be able to express femininity, a right which has been denied to us.

We are different from women wearing masculine clothes as we have an inner desire which is absent in women, but the motivation to use clothes to project our feelings and gender positioning is the same for everyone.

[~Tammy~]

Well put Reene and Helana, thats exactly what I was attempting to say :thumbsup:

Now I shall attempt something else!

I believe a scale can be used to view the develement of feminine/masculine traits as we grow and devlope. Of course the scale varies immensly depending on personal experiences but this is the way I see things.


Feminine ------------------- Birth -------------------- Masculine
-10 -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +9 +10

When a baby is first concieved they start off at '0' as it is not known what sex the baby will be. For this example, we will not determine what sex this baby will be until it is born.

Upon birth we then discover whether the baby is (physically) male or female and then the position on the scale changes dramtically. Probabaly the single biggest change in the whole of this persons life. If the baby is a girl we immediately envision a scene of soft, pink, delicate girlie things putting her at the -10 end of the scale. If it is a boy we think of tough, blue, rough and tumble things placing him at the +10 end. The babies are thought of differently and so raised in a certain way to conform to sociecties expectation of what a boy or girl should be wearing and doing.

At some point in this persons life whether male of female (for me it was aged 10), he/she starts moving towards the other end of the scale and this is where the problem for society starts.

For a girl to start doing masculine things it can be seen as a positive thing. Moving from -10 to 0. Where as a guy doing feminine things is commiting a negetive act by going backwards from +10 to 0.

While employement stereotypes have gradually merged over the years with women peforming previously masculine jobs like becoming mechanics, builders and high level management and men taking what was considered feminine roles such a nursing and hairdressing. When it comes to personal activities and dressing however woman are still ok to move towards the masculine end of the scale as it is still moving in a postive direction but again for men to move towards the feminine end it is negative.

Think of it this way, with an ever increasing number for women heading towards the masculine end of the scale, it leaves the minus section rather thin on the ground so I believe we are doing society a good thing by levelling out the scale or the planet would slip of the masculine end into total blokedom :)

[Clare]

Reene and Helana, you have both summed it up nicely!

I couldn't agree more with your comments and really, it does come down to what each individual person considers appropriate for them.

Within my closet (the house that is) i can be content with just a summer dress and no other femme atire.

If heading out the door to the big wide world, i would feel the need to completely 'transform' because in my opinion, if i'm accepted as a woman, then I'm not insulting the status of real ladies in society. In other words, i respect the equality that women have fought for and don't wish to embarrass them in public.

It's as simple as that!

Christine

[AngGG]

While I agree that some just like to wear womans clothes for some there is also a personality shift that I really do not see addressed here. If I am working around the house doing traditionally male things, its because it has to be done. My dh works very long hard hours sometimes 12-14 per day 6 days a week. So if a home repair needs to be done, and I can do it, I pull back my hair put on something comfortable, jeans, shorts, tee, ect and do it. I do not start adjusting myself, stop and take a beer break, whistle and cat call, (you get my point) which are all (unfortunately) what society deems as typically male behaviors.

When dh comes home from work and puts on a dress its not because he needs to clean the house, cook dinner or do laundry. She looks at things differently, mentally and physically. By that I mean the way she holds herself changes, like when standing her hip thrusts to the side a little more, she gives me coy looks, smiles a little different, and I get lots of attention ;) and that is because she feels fem. That is not a bad thing because it makes her feel good.

Like the title says just playing devils advocate here. I also believe society as a whole is too uptight and should not impose their opinions and judgements on something that is not harming anyone.

Ang

[LaceLuvr's GG]

To Renee and Helena... Great posts. It's very hard for a GG to put into perspective why a man chooses to wear women's clothing. I try my best to guess.. but more than likely I'm wrong. It's great to be able to hear the thoughts and views of CDers, so it can help me grow and understand the CDing world better.

To Tammy... once again, thank you very much for helping put things in perspective. That's a very interesting, and I believe acurate way, of lining it all out. GREAT POST!!!!

[Helana]

Tammy

Great idea to lay things out graphically and I agree 100%.

Let me go off on a tangent here.

My thought is if most women are gravitating towards 0 while men remain resolutely stuck in the high +'s, then don't we end up with an imbalance in society? As you put it "total blokedom" is probably not a healthy thing, especially considering that most of the evils in this world are blamed on the male persona.

Its like there being only two choices of political parties - a centralist party and a right wing party. Without a strong left wing party as a counterbalance the country will inevitably become increasing right wing and radical (maybe this is already starting to happen in America?)

Society needs either an equal counterbalance of feminine women or it must allow men to also gravitate towards zero as well. Since society presently will not allow men that movement then it would be better if women were strong and confident in their femininity rather than be strong and confident by emulating masculinity.

I know I have overstated things here but it is interesting to observe how society and families have been breaking down in the last few decades. Women's roles have changed dramatically while men's roles have remained fairly static resulting in an imbalance which affects everyone.

The traditional male and female gender roles are artificial and made many people of both genders very unhappy so the best solution is not for women to return to their traditional roles but to allow men to move towards zero. Then everyone could be true to their own nature and not be forced to live a lie.

I guess that makes us CDers pioneers towards creating a happier and healthier society. :thumbsup:

[Helana]

To Renee and Helena... Great posts. It's very hard for a GG to put into perspective why a man chooses to wear women's clothing. I try my best to guess.. but more than likely I'm wrong. It's great to be able to hear the thoughts and views of CDers, so it can help me grow and understand the CDing world better.



Thanks for the compliment Silk, and thanks for being so refreshingly honest.

There is nothing hard to understand why a man would choose to wear a dress if you can discard the social conditioning and myths which have been shaping all our views all of our lives, and just see things the way they actually are. The idea that men would not want to feel pretty about themselves is an artificial Western construct, and a fairly recent one at that.

Western society is very good at dressing things up to obscure the real truth. Our excess income and leisure time is put to use in creating smokescreens to hide uncomfortable truths about ourselves.

Take for example what attracts the opposite sex. Pick up a male or female lifestyle magazine and they will be listing things like eyes, smile, sense of humor, shared values etc. All of these are true in themselves so we feel comforted in knowing that we are all "deep" people choosing our partners for the right reasons.

Unfortunately all the scientific studies show the dominant reason women choose a man is because of his income/wealth, and the dominant reason men choose a woman is for a young, sexy body. Also the studies show ugly people marry ugly people, average looking people marry each other, and beautiful people marry each other. You dont find these facts in lifestyle magazines.

So what happened to love conquers all?, selecting our partners based on their personalities? Go outside Western societies and the real truth is still blatently obvious. Of course there are plenty of exceptions, but the vast majority do follow these basic elements of attraction even if they do not see it themselves.

Another classic is dieting. This is now a multi-trillion dollar industry which obscures a simple truth. People find it hard to lose weight because they do not stick to their diet/exercise routine. They cheat on themselves and then claim that dieting/exercise does not work for them. This defies the laws of physics, it is a very simple equation after all, calories in - calories out. :think:
What is lacking is willpower and admiting the truth to themselves.

Ok enough conjecture for today. :D