Extra marital affair -vs- Closet CD...what's the difference?

[eluuzion]

Before I get attacked by a character defending lynch mob ready to beat me up with their moral compasses...hehe...let me clarify my point...:heehee:

I am not referring to any morality or loyalty issues, just the mechanics of the process in the following circumstance:

1) A CD who is in a relationship with a partner they consider to be their SO.
2) The SO is totally unaware of the CD's interest and behavior.

So, I know it is a complex issue, yakity yak yak. But generally speaking the orchestration of the process to engage but conceal the activity from an SO is IMO, quite similar to the strategies employed by a person having an affair. Not by "choice" as in the "affair" scenario, but for "self preservation" motives in the CD scenario.

Anyone else see the similarities?

[Rachel2000]

Hmmm. I've never really looked at that way before but when you think about it, its absolutely true as keeping the crossdressing a secret really isn't much different than having a secret extramarital affair - only in this scenario the mistress is the closeted CD's alter personality.

Excellent point Eluuzion and well taken.

Rachel

[Imogen_Mann]

When my ex was preparing to leave me, she was having an E/M affair (more or less) and at the time I was dressing in secret and undertaking other secret activities that were very much clandestine.... Our tactics and behavior were more or less the same. Unexplained trips out on flimsy pretenses from here, and no protest from me (play time !!). Late stays at work for me, sneakiy shopping trips for me... No questions about why or where from her.

It was almost co-dependency although I think her crime was the worse (being unfaithfull) mine was probably the more embarrassing if I'd been caught !

The one behavior is VERY similar to the other.

[Joanne f]

An affair is a moral and loyalty issue whereas cross dressing is a personal and social issue i do not see how you can compare them both .

[Sarah_GG]

... she was having an E/M affair (more or less)...

Was she or wasn't she? Whichever, you didn't seem too worried as it facilitated your own "sneaky" behaviour. Perhaps there was something fundamentally wrong already in the relationship... which came first your secrecy or her affair? :battingeyelashes:

When some SOs discover stashes of underwear and make-up their immediate thought is that they belong to 'another woman'.

The issue is the same - mistrust. An SO will probably know that her partner is keeping a secret... but she won't know what it is. She will feel the distance and will be keeping an eye out for sneaky behaviour... she will probably, in many cases, assume you are having an affair.

When both parties in the relationship know about the CDing, it can be a joint fun activity. At least a topic for discussion and communication. Mutual support, trust, openness.

[eluuzion]

An affair is a moral and loyalty issue whereas cross dressing is a personal and social issue i do not see how you can compare them both .

I specifically tried to emphasize that I was not suggesting any moral and loyalty analogy between the two scenarios. I agree with your suggestion that there is not a relationship between the two in the arena you are addressing. I certainly am not suggesting or declaring any judgements about any character or integrity of anyone, CD or otherwise. I am assuming most of us would concur on that issue from the onset.

I am focusing solely on the "mechanics of behavior" in both cases. The actions that by default, that are carried out in the process of concealing the CD from the SO.

Hopefully, that clarifies my intentions, which apparently you misinterpreted...:love:

[Imogen_Mann]

Was she or wasn't she? Whichever, you didn't seem too worried as it facilitated your own "sneaky" behaviour. Perhaps there was something fundamentally wrong already in the relationship... which came first your secrecy or her affair? :battingeyelashes:

Hi Sarah.. Just to clarify (or confuse things further)

I used the term "More or less" because we lived in sin for 12 years, so it was 'an affair', but a we were not legally married, it was not technically extra marital.... but may as well have been. We had also just had our first (and only) child together.

She knew I dressed from the outset of that 12 year relationship.... But yes I agree, I hold my hands up and admit her sneaky behavior validated part of mine (to my mind) for quite some time. Then one day.. I sat down and thought it all through.

Which came first, my secrecy on one level, then her affair, then my secrecy on another level too, with that "validated" feeling once I figured her shenannigans out.... Hope that makes sense... It's one of those typically long winded convoluted stories that life kicks up.

[BRANDYJ]

I think you made a valid comparison. For me, I can't even think about keeping my cross dressing from my SO. I have been married to two women that knew and accepted me the way I am. (first wife died in 1984). my present SO not only knows, but met me on a website for those of us in alternate lifestyles. So she knew, accepted and in fact likes the fact that I am a CD.
I often wonder juts how a CD can hide it for years from his wife. I guess they don't shave there body, or that would be a give away. Duh! It has to be hard and very frustrating. Not to mention the lack of openness and closeness that a couple can have when there are no secrets.

[Sarah_GG]

Hi Sarah.. Just to clarify (or confuse things further)

I used the term "More or less" because we lived in sin for 12 years, so it was 'an affair', but a we were not legally married, it was not technically extra marital.... but may as well have been. We had also just had our first (and only) child together.

She knew I dressed from the outset of that 12 year relationship.... But yes I agree, I hold my hands up and admit her sneaky behavior validated part of mine (to my mind) for quite some time. Then one day.. I sat down and thought it all through.

Which came first, my secrecy on one level, then her affair, then my secrecy on another level too, with that "validated" feeling once I figured her shenannigans out.... Hope that makes sense... It's one of those typically long winded convoluted stories that life kicks up.

Thanks Jayme, I wasn't meaning to pry but your response is open and honest! (I would say that's still an affair even if you weren't married!)

Would you consider that her knowing from the outset didn't actually make it any easier in the long run? Did the novelty wear off... did she understand the extent of your CDing? Was she able to get support from a site such as this? Sorry... so many questions!

For my part, I'm an accepting SO of a lifelong CDer. We're older (40s and 50s) and have only been together for three years. But, I knew fairly early on. My SO had kept it a secret to start with but I knew something was missing. I mistakenly believed he was still pining for his ex. When I was told it answered a lot of my questions. Our relationship since then has been honest and trusting.

I am a firm believer in being open and honest from the outset, even if the CDing changes, evolves or gets shrouded in pink fog from time to time!

:)

[Froggy's Angel]

I know what you mean, I know a lot of people who find out about their partner CDing are SOOO relieved to find out that it was NOT an affair...

What would you think if you were finding underwear and makeup that wasn't yours, if you were a GG, or boxers that weren't yours, you get my point... :)

When Nicole was at her lowest and still hiding things from me I actually did suspect an affair...
And she knows that I would not forgive or move past an affair, so she is lucky it was Crossdressing, LOL :D

[noeleena]

Hi.
I know what you are getting at . just a point or two,
Psychologicaly , & emotionally ,There are some very different details going on that would tell me that its not the same,
Two details are one an affair , is between two people with a 3 rd on the side line not knowing whats taking place or of cause two sets of partners. & the giving of both to each other behind closed doors ,
The other concerns one person who is finding them selfs by them selfs or presenting them self with out any one knowing . so emotionlly presents a different set of details ,
there may be some details that could / may be the same yet knowing what i know i would say no . there are no similatys based on the thinking of the people concerned,
Hiding , keeping out of sight & details like that ,yes,

emotionally & psychologically very different & much harder for a trans person . because that is more about the person & his / her life .
Not just a if you like a 5 min / moment of passion. & yes i can say what its like from my life & my s o , & what happened to Jos . & what went on ,behind closed doors very very hard i can tell you .i knew what was going on before i was told .
& yes many of us who are women do perceve what is going on no matter how covered up it is . any way all a learning for me about people .

...noeleena...

[eluuzion]

My SO had kept it a secret to start with but I knew something was missing. I mistakenly believed he was still pining for his ex. :)

This is one of the "sidebar" components of walking the tightrope that CDs must navigate. There are so many narrow roads with steep cliffs on each side. This is one of the most trecherous, IMO. An unknowing SO naturally gravitates toward the suspicion of a possible outside affair with any "clues" accidently left behind for discovery. When "clues" are added to the seemingly inevitable "sixth sense" detection of "something not being right" with their partner (that couples develop with each other), it is a receipe for a potential misinterpreted explosion of the relationship at some point in the future.

The world would be a much safer and foregiving place with more people like you, giving folks more opportunities to be honest with each other.

So, two questions....is 40-50 really "older"...boo hoo...
and...do you have a sister?

:heehee::heehee::heehee:

[docrobbysherry]

Back to the original question: Altho, there R similarities!:brolleyes:

U CAN'T catch VD, STDs, or get your closet lady friend preggers!:devil:

[AKAMichelle]

Definitely. In fact that is just what my wife said yesterday.

[StaceyJane]

I don't think they are the same at all.

Let me explain,

When I came out to my wife she was very accepting at first. She told me she understood and even encouraged me to meet with other CD's.

Then she told me her secret. She had slept with other men.

I can 100% tell you that was not an even exchange. Yes, I had kept a secret but I never cheated or did anything to hurt her. She hurt me about as bad as I can be hurt.

[Niya W]

Interesting topic. Here is on to throw at you . I've met a few CD's who's wifes considered the dressing as cheating. Of course huby is the other women.

[Sarah_GG]

Interesting topic. Here is on to throw at you . I've met a few CD's who's wifes considered the dressing as cheating. Of course huby is the other women.

That's because quite often 'she' is the 'other woman'! Some CDers can get so caught up in their femme persona that they forget to pay attention to the 'real' woman in their lives. In fact their are many posters on this very site who even refer to themselves as such!

[Bobbie Bee]

I agree with Joanne F, how can wearing a certain type of clothing be compared to betrayal of trust? The two don't compare. Having an affair is a violation of the union; wearing whatever you want is a personal decision, there is no trust involved.

[minalost]

I agree with Joanne F, how can wearing a certain type of clothing be compared to betrayal of trust? The two don't compare. Having an affair is a violation of the union; wearing whatever you want is a personal decision, there is no trust involved.

Sure, I can agree with that, BUT... It's easy for me to say because I'm the crossdresser. To the SO it's it's less about what your doing than about the fact that you are hiding it. For many people (not just women) any lie is a "betrayal of trust." It's like Washington DC: you get in more trouble for the cove-up than for what you actually did in the first place.

Besides, the poster is just talking about the mechanics of CDing: sneaking around, sending time and money... Just the same as fooling around with someone else.
:hugs:

[Bobbie Bee]

Well, I haven't lied, but then again I haven't been asked. I just haven't revealed my CDing. Is that a betrayal of trust? Is this cheating?

[Wen4cd]

The former involves two individuals and the power of imagination, the latter involves a tangible 'third party.'

I can see how cultivating an intimate relationship with oneself can be seen as depriving the partner of a projection she might wish to have on her. Because it initially feels good and powerful and special to be the target of such a projection. But in all, it's better to see a person, rather than an anima projection, when viewing a partner.

Now, 'time and attention' is a different story. If one's closet CDing is causing undue neglect to a relationship, balance needs to be applied.

Secrecy-wise, bad scene overall. If your SO is not privy to your CDing, and it's positive purposes, and if it's not directed towards self-growth, for all purposes, it is not much different than the 'other woman.'

[suchacutie]

Going back to the original post, the mechanics of hiding part of your life from your partner is the issue. Once one partner becomes emotionally involved with someone other than their partner, part of the gift that was given upon exchange of vows has been taken back. It's likely that none of us understands this when we are first married, but we soon realize that marriage in the best sense is a total sharing. It often takes a few years to "learn" that being with our friends in preference to being with our spouses diminishes the union. Emotional affairs have the capability of doing this same thing...sharing things with other people we should be sharing with our spouses in the best of all worlds.

Thus, if you follow that logic, it does lead to the conclusion that emotional thought not shared leads in a dangerous direction. Of course, we all some small fraction of our thoughts we don't share with anyone, but if this part of us is allowed to grow, the union becomes weaker, hence the link proposed in this thread.

tina

[minalost]

Well, I haven't lied, but then again I haven't been asked. I just haven't revealed my CDing. Is that a betrayal of trust? Is this cheating?

Frankly, I think this is open to interpretation and each individual is going to see it in their own way. To some a lie by omission is still a lie (disclaimer: I am not saying that I believe this, just that some do...), to others maybe not so much. You know your SO better than anyone, so should know how they will feel about it.
Just my :2c:.
:hugs:

[sherri52]

The similarities are the same but the results are totally different. The person who cheats hurts the one that loves them far more than the CD. The CD keeps a confusion on the marriage but but doesn't give the other a feeling of inadequacy.

[charlie]

Yes, the complexities and actions are very similar. Hide, lie, tell stories to fit the moment.

[Ruth]

I think the comparison is an uncomfortable one for us married CDers. Before I was out to my wife, I was doing something that used up a significant amount of my thoughts and energy and which was shut off from her. Okay there is a comparison in the mechanics of concealment etc., but more important there is a deceit going on. In terms of the integrity of the marriage relationship, I was cheating on her.
That is over for me now and she knows everything - she is not happy, and wishes I could stop, but at least we have an honest relationship.
The damage and hurt must be something not far off the effects of an extramarital affair though.
I won't rationalise it away by saying no harm was done, no-one else was involved, etc. It was deceit, pure and simple.

[SouthernBelle.GG]

...how can wearing a certain type of clothing be compared to betrayal of trust? The two don't compare. Having an affair is a violation of the union; wearing whatever you want is a personal decision, there is no trust involved.

The betrayal of trust - in my situation - was my husband lying about what he was doing in order to CD. Working late? Lie. Need to run to town at 10 at night to check on things at the store? Lie. Having trouble with the car and will be home later than expected? Lie. Out of town on business and telling me he's going to turn in early? Lie. Running errands late at night. Lie. I could give plenty more examples, but you get the picture. To me, these lies were a violation of our union.

After a while I caught on and found out he wasn't doing exactly what he told me he was doing. All the lying and sneaky behavior led me to believe he was having an affair. When I found out about the CDing, yes, I was relieved that there hadn't been an affair. I thought the sneaky behavior and lying would stop. It didn't. Talk about a slap in the face. Not a betrayal of trust? :eek:

[Bobbie Bee]

Southernbelle, you are married to your husband; you don't own him. There's probably a lot of reasons why he was deceitful; embarrassed is the first that comes to mind. The fear of facing an unaccepting wife is the next. At least he wasn't cheating. Besides, don't we all grow-up around half-truths anyway?

[Sarah_GG]

Southernbelle, you are married to your husband; you don't own him. There's probably a lot of reasons why he was deceitful; embarrassed is the first that comes to mind. The fear of facing an unaccepting wife is the next. At least he wasn't cheating. Besides, don't we all grow-up around half-truths anyway?

Thankfully Southernbelle IS an accepting wife! And I think she was responding to the OPs question, certainly not declaring 'ownership' of her husband.

[SouthernBelle.GG]

Southernbelle, you are married to your husband; you don't own him. There's probably a lot of reasons why he was deceitful; embarrassed is the first that comes to mind. The fear of facing an unaccepting wife is the next. At least he wasn't cheating. Besides, don't we all grow-up around half-truths anyway?

I'm confused. Where have I ever said I own my husband? I was trying to explain how lies can be a betrayal of trust.

I accepted the CDing early on, but it was something HE decided we were not to talk about. After many, many years of him dodging my attempts to talk and better understand, we now talk openly about his CDing. He's been very forthcoming about why he kept it from me and why he lied. I've forgiven and he's promised to never lie where his CDing is concerned.

As for taking lies so lightly because we all tell half-truths anyway? When lies almost destroys my marriage to a man I love more than anything, I don't take them so lightly.

[Mirani]

Southernbelle, you are married to your husband; you don't own him. There's probably a lot of reasons why he was deceitful; embarrassed is the first that comes to mind. The fear of facing an unaccepting wife is the next. At least he wasn't cheating. Besides, don't we all grow-up around half-truths anyway?

???
Sorry but I don't understand your interpretation of SB's post. Cant see where she even implies that she "owns him".

A lie is a lie is a lie. We may try to justify it - but it is still a lie.

SB - I understand your viewpoint.

[docrobbysherry]

---------------------------
Emotional affairs have the capability of doing this same thing...sharing things with other people we should be sharing with our spouses in the best of all worlds. ---------------------------------------
tina

How can u have an, "emotional affair", with yourself? Or even, your fem alter ego? Sex, maybe, but surely NOT emotion? :brolleyes:

Whereas, if u have an actual affair, emotion IS/WAS probably involved between the two people!:sad:

Putting the "trust", and, "honesty" issues aside, I can see where "emotional involvement" MITE be a big difference between an outside affair, and a CD with herself!:doh:

[Wen4cd]

How can u have an, "emotional affair", with yourself? Or even, your fem alter ego? Sex, maybe, but surely NOT emotion? :brolleyes:



You'd be surprised.

[Melinda G]

Awe c'mon. There's a big difference. In an extramarital affair, you are betraying a trust, and sharing your thoughts, emotions and your body with someone else.
In crossdressing, you are just enjoying some private pleasure, and keeping it to yourself. How is crossdressing any different than keeping a stash of Hustler magazines hidden in the basement, or stopping at a strip club on the way home from work?

[eluuzion]

The betrayal of trust - in my situation - was my husband lying about what he was doing in order to CD. Working late? Lie. Need to run to town at 10 at night to check on things at the store? Lie. Having trouble with the car and will be home later than expected? Lie. Out of town on business and telling me he's going to turn in early? Lie. Running errands late at night. Lie. I could give plenty more examples, but you get the picture. To me, these lies were a violation of our union.



Hi SB...

It is obvious that you correctly interpreted what I referred to as the "mechanics" of the process between the two scenarios. Unfortuately, you have also provided an example of one of the "worst case consequences".

The two scenarios I presented share similarities in the physical/behavioral "mechanics" of concealment. (only)
Fortunately, many here seem to have dodged the bullet when the moment of "truth" became unavoidable. (disclosure to SO). Once out in the open, the SO "relief" of it being a complex personal struggle for the CD partner, as opposed to being an affair with an outsider, seems to have saved some relationships from total destruction. I commend those who attempt to repair the damage and save the union.

Unfortunately, you appear to have added another challenge to an already complex situation...a liar :sad:
It is one matter to "innocently" jeopardize" and damage a relationship in the process of struggling with the internal quagmire of emotions and conflict that accompanies the [closet]CD experience. It may not be "constuctive" to the relationship, but it was a journey traveled with honest and loyal intentions by the CD partner.

But when you discover you are also dealing with a "liar", the wheels fall off the cart. The whole issue is redefined by intentional deceit. It would be a deal breaker for me, too.

I am sorry you were dealt those cards. But you appear to be logical, strong and self confident enough to land on your feet. I admire your tenacity...life is an adventure, eh?

Good Luck, thanks for sharing...

E

[suchacutie]

docrobbysherry....you're not emotionally involved with your feminine self? I sure am! She is an integral part of me. We share the data in our brain, but we act on it very differently, and yet it is me. In fact, the more I think about it, the emotional involvement with your own feminine side might be the most intense involvement possible, since it is one side of your very self!

southernbelle...right on! The idea of deceiving your spouse is heartache with a capital H, and that's a heartache from both sides! That's why not being able to come out to a spouse is so devastating...before and after! And yet, the intense nature of the femme self and the incredible stigma attached to it all can be so overwhelming! I don't envy anyone in this catch-22 situation, and I can only pray for the best for them and their spouses.

tina

and it's ok to stop at a strip club on the way home from work?

I can tell you what my wife would think of that immediately! What wife would find it ok and not a direct threat for one to take pleasure from a group of youngish naked women? omg, my wife would go ballistic, and she sure as hell should!

Frankly, I've got my own strip club and it's called a bedroom!

us

[eluuzion]

Hmmm. I've never really looked at that way before but when you think about it, its absolutely true as keeping the crossdressing a secret really isn't much different than having a secret extramarital affair - only in this scenario the mistress is the closeted CD's alter personality.

Excellent point Eluuzion and well taken.

Rachel

Hiya Rachel,

I am popping back here in the "past" from about the 25+ replies that have been posted after yours, just to remind myself that a few did understand the focus of my thread. lol.

I knew it was a stretch to try and isolate the mechanical aspects (only), of activities in two scenarios. This is an emotionally charged forum, lol. I was simply asking for everyone to set aside the "emotional", "motivation", "character", "justification", etc elements for a moment, and just focus on physical activity of the process. It quickly digressed into various mini-debates comparing loyalty, motives, emotional aspects, of the two scenarios. I am not discounting the importance of the cognitive elements...they are important.

I am just clarifying that those issues were irrelevant to the component of the process I was comparing.

Hey, as long as someone understood the intent and specific focus...I'm happy...lol. I don't care where this thread ends up by digression...it's all interesting to observe for me...:love: Most people that know me have learned they won't really understand where I am going mentally, until later...when it makes sense...lol

HaveFun/BeHappy

thanks for sharing...:hugs:

E

[Kerigirl2009]

I have to say I have never had thoughts of cheating on my wife. I would say though that there are hiding issues. Like make-up on the collar. Luckily, my wife knows about my crossdressing, because she beat me to the dryer today and the load was a mixture of my girl clothes too. OOPS! I do love my wife. She is so understanding.

[docrobbysherry]

I was not aware THAT was possible! :brolleyes:
Obviously, it hasn't happened to me!

There's SO MUCH I don't know or understand, about CD/TG/TS experiences!:eek:


And, Rachel, I think physically, there's a wide variety in the way folks treat their "closet female"! What exactly r u getting at? Sex?
I think THAT could be an issue in a relationship, VERY MUCH like having a mistress! She's BETTER than a real mistress for me.

[Lynn Marie]

This is a very profound thread and I'm busted. I get it and I get it good. I'm cheating with another woman who is me. Oh I can justify my actions with the best of them, but that's just fooling myself and being callous towards the feeling of the other person I am cheating on.

Before my GF visits I have to make sure that all my girly stuff is securely hidden as surely as if I was hiding the evidence of an illicit tryst. I read every post in this thread and I can see myself in a great many of them trying to avoid the responsibility for my actions. It just sort of creeps up so gradually and before we know it, it's a full blown love affair.

Right now, I'm not all that happy with myself.

[Blaire]

Yes, it's similar. Both have hiding/sneaking/deception followed by eventual disaster.

A "dirty" secret for CDing vs a dirty secret for the affair.

[eluuzion]

Well, now that I've placed you all in a good mood...there is one more thing...Earth will be hit by a meteor tomorrow at 10 a.m. and we all will die...have a nice day...:confused2:

Jus' kiddn'...I just realized that this thread topic probably has the potential to stack some more guilt on the already overloaded mental systems we CDs are carrying around. Talk about a Bobby Buzzkill:brolleyes:. I appologize to everyone if I tossed another anchor behind your boat.

I follow the "think less~act more" philosophy, particularly on internet forums. The only things that change my smile to a frown are threats to my family and dishonest business people. Otherwise, I am a happy camper by choice, and try to approach things with a positive dementia, uh, er, ah...I mean ...dimension.:o Life is Short.

I am in the "Hide-n-Seek in the Real World" business, and I am just curious about stuff. I see it every day so it does not affect me. I forget others are more sensitive on such issues.

Anyway, if I ruined your day, try this...

Put on a black mini and nice top, medium heels will do...
then wash my car and shine my shoes. It should cheer you up again! (if it does not work, give me a call, I have other tips you can try...:hugs:)

"Sarcasm...just one more service I offer..."

HaveFun~BeHappy , we are not getting any younger...and life is like a roll of toilet paper...it always goes faster toward the end...:D

[ReineD]

In terms of strictly comparing the mechanics, I agree that hiding the CDing from a wife is similar to hiding an affair. For that matter, it is similar to hiding an addiction or a compulsion (except it isn't hard to tell when someone is drunk or high ... so pick a different compulsion). All three things drive a wedge in the relationship, since one partner (the wife) doesn't have anything which takes emotional or sexual precedence over the other partner (the husband), who does. The wife will feel the distance and the inequality in the commitment to honesty and intimacy, even if she doesn't know what the issue is. She will become unhappy and if she is emotionally healthy she will eventually insist that her husband come clean or she will want out of the relationship.

This is where the similarities end. Both the affair and the compulsion involve an outside source which can be eliminated if both partners are interested in staying in the marriage. The CDing does not. Once it is out in the open, it is something that can be integrated into the marriage.

[Rachel2000]

I'm actually starting to feel somewhat guilty, well maybe just a little bit:sad::drink: Ok, I'm over it now:):) Its all good.:hugs: Time to put on a skirt & some makeup:):cheer::cheer:

Seriously though, this thread really got me thinking.