What we are or what we are not

[Sarah Doepner]

I was writing an email to someone to get a speaker for an upcoming meeting of our support group. When I finished reading it I realized that much of the note was attempting to define crossdressers by what we are not. We are not gay any more than the general population, we are not all drag queens, we are not pedophiles, we are not serial killers who wear the skin of our victims under a delicate lavendar cami, we are not . . . .

Is it possible to explain to a "civilian" in our society what a crossdresser is without spending all that time distancing ourselves from all the stereotypes that seem substitute for reality?

[kellycan27]

Do you feel the need to explain yourself? We are just people like everybody else. I let people judge me for myself. If someone wants to jump to a conclusion about me..shame on them, and their loss. I am sorry, but feeling the need to explain yourself in my opinion is like saying that you are doing something wrong and you feel the need to re-assure people that you are not.
Contrary to what a lot of people seem to think around here, it has been my experience that the majority of people don't care one way or another about us.They may be taken a back at first, but once they get to know a little about me, they are fine with it. Not everyone thinks that we are perverts and pedophiles. Sometimes I think the we are our own worst enemies. We don't need to have society keep us hidden, we do a great job of doing that on our own. All we really need to do is get out there and show people that we are NOT different then they are. Not everybody will accept us, but who cares about those few? Even a lot of the ones who can't accept us aren't going to do anything about it, and hey.. they are entitled to their opinion.:2c:

Kel

[AllieSF]

Kelly said it all for me. The only explanation that may be needed is that I, you or us are crossdressers, meaning that in varying degrees we like to wear women's clothing. Let them ask the questions and respond accordingly. I have had zero issues going out on a regular basis interacting with everyone. The problems, or maybe better stated, the perceived problems that others talk about and fear are really the rare situations and not the norm.

[Karen_Ski]

Sarah, the other gurls here have given you excellent advice as to what we are. Sadfly thre is still a large percentage of the population you have to start with "what we are not." Just tell them of yourself and what you are and how you feel about this aspect of your life. Good luck I know you will do us all proud. :love:

[Ms Deidre]

Karen has given you some excellent advice here Sarah. You should also explain the difference between TG and TS. I am pre-op and have known for many of my 56 years that I was born the wrong gender. I love men but do not see myself as gay but rather a normal heterosexual female attracted to men. Maybe people like me complicate issues for those of you that are "just" TG but we are as much a part of the community as you.

One other point you might make is the reason crossdressers are seen as gay is the gay community was where we found acceptance years ago, far ahead of the mainstream population. The gay population knows of the rejection and the humiliation mainstream has tried to pile on them and transgendered people have felt the same persecution, that is one reason the TG community still closely identifies with the gay community. Come to think of it is called LBGT; Lesbain, Bi-sexual, Gay, and Transgendered.

As Kare said Good luck and do us proud! :hugs:

[Roberta Young]

Sarah good post. let me apologize for society as they know not what their doing to us. luv Roberta

[erickka]

Great post, Sarah. I still believe that the general populus is afraid of their own shadows, let alone anyone or anything they may perceive as different. IMO, until people are able to open their minds and hearts, I feel that, unfortunately, we'll be explaining until the cows come home. I am to the point, that if someone pre judges me, you aren't someone I would like in my "circle". Take me as I am, a real person with real feelings and emotions, and we're all good.

[tamarav]

Oh this is so true.

I work as a hair stylist, dressed, and meet many people daily. I don't offer them any explanation of anyting but I will answer their questions. I used to ry to explain what we are and where we fit into the strange category but no longer. People can just draw their own conclusions, make up their own stories and get on with thier lives because I certainly am.

It really is funny to watch people once they realize what I am, they can get so wierd...

[5150 Girl]

I think the best way to combat sterio types is to prove them wrong/
When I go out I just do normal every day things, in a normal every day manner. I know that's easy for me to say, as I kinda "blend in" for the most part, but I do get read on ocasion, and I guess I'm counting thoe few that do read me to tell others how otherwise normal that dude who looks like a lady they saw in WalMArt was...

[bobi jean]

each one of us is an individual. Unique in our own way perhaps, but not unlike everyone else on earth. crossdressing is not a reason (or cause) for us to become something we are not already.
cross dressing will not cause any one to, rob, kill, rape, or commit anyother crime, unless that person is going to, or willing to, do so in the first place.....
It is a shame that some assholes do use cross dressing to commit crimes, but cross dressing is not going to MAKE any of us do something we are not willing to do in the first place. IT IS A SHAME THE WORLD POPULATION (IN GENERAL) CAN'T BELIEVE OR UNDERSTAND THAT.......
Hell, most cross dressers are afraid to leave the closet, not to mention going outside, but maybe when we all stop hiding behind closed doors, or use the dark of night to go out, they will begin to understand a little better.
It is not a crime to be a cross dresser, nor is there any shame in being a cross dresser.
I AM WHAT I AM, because I want to be! how about you?

[VikkiVixen7188]

I just tell people that a crossdresser is a person who wears the opposite clothes of their given gender.

Thats what defines a crossdresser.... how did that become confusing?

[carolinoakland]

When I give presentations I describe a crossdresser as usually, but not allways, a heterosexual male who enjoys dressing in the clothing of the opposite gender, also confused witha transvestite which is the clinical defination of a usually heterosexual male who dresses in the clothes of the opposite gender for the purpose of physical gratification.

[suchacutie]

Let's see if I can make it short and sweet, but without labels (this is for MTF only):

We are ordinary men who have the need to express the femininity within us.

There could be other qualifiers such as:

Our expression of our feminine selves runs the gamut from casual to intense, and from private to public.

Actually, thinking about how to talk about who we are is rather fun!

tina

[mklinden2010]

I like the simple explanation:

"A crossdresser is someone, male or female, who dresses in..."

But, realistically I am coming to prefer something like:

"A crossdresser is someone, male or female, who dresses in clothing of the opposite sex for a variety of personal and practical reasons. They may find it fun, they may find it physically exciting, they may find it an escape - like some people like wearing masks at New Year's, and they may do this for all these and/or a lot of other reasons besides.

Bottom line, however, crossdressing is something that some people do enough to make it a significant, and thus defining, use of their time and interests. They still have jobs, families, and community activities, but this is something each person so defined fairly uniquely does - pretty much like anyone does anything for any reason.

Why play football? Why cook? Why go to dance clubs? Why read books? And, what do people call you when you play football, or, cook, or dance, or, read a lot? Labels tell you what someone does, but not everything about who they are..

Crossdressers, come in different stripes. Just as some people freshwater fish in lakes and others in rivers. And, some are saltwater fishers - which can be onshore, near shore, or, out to sea. There's crossdressing, and, then there's crossdressing...

If you take male and female crossdressers and line them up, you can't tell just by looking which crossdresser type you may have. Could be a fetish crossdresser, a TG person, a FTM crossdresser, someone making a fashion statement...

The thing they all have in common however, is that they are people. So treat them like anyone else and you'll find they're actually just like everyone else. Which, of course, they are, because when they aren't crossdressed you don't know any more or less about them than you know about anyone - until you get to know them as people.

[kellycan27]

Sarah, the other gurls here have given you excellent advice as to what we are. Sadfly thre is still a large percentage of the population you have to start with "what we are not." Just tell them of yourself and what you are and how you feel about this aspect of your life. Good luck I know you will do us all proud. :love:

I am curious to see where this information about many or large ( or whatever adjective is used) percentages of the population or "society" is intolerant or against us? I just don't see it. I don't see it in my day to day interaction with the mainstream, nor do I see it in the posts where people have gone out in public. I don't see news stories or read about it in the newspapers. I don't hear about it from the cder's and transsexuals or transgendered people that I hang out with. I don't get it from my mainstream friends,co-workers, or clients. Oh sure, once in a while ther may be an incident, but the way that a lot of people describe it.. you'ed think that there was some kind of organized movement where tons of us were being rounded up and tortured or persecuted. Are there statistics or have the mainstream been polled? studies conducted? Can anyone direct me to where I might be able to see or read about this for myself? help!

Kel

[sherri52]

We are them only in the clothing of our opposite gender.

[Nigella]

Kelly

I don't believe that such information is available, or if it is it would be accurate. As you say, in day to day encounters I have had the odd "look" or comment, but no out right animosity directed towards me or my SO.

We are our own worst enemy because we put all the blockages in the way.

[sissystephanie]

I have been a Crossdresser for most of my 70 plus years! Since my wife, who alwys fixed my wig and did my makeup, passed away 5 years ago, I no longer go out trying to pass. Now I just dress feminine and go out as a man!

The odd thing is, that in all my years of Crossdressing I have never had any bad comments made that I could hear. I have had a lot of compliments about my clothes or shoes, but nothing bad. So, as has been asked before, who is it that makes these comments? In the last five years I have gone virtually everywhere dressed as a female, but looking like the man that I am! No bad comments or remarks from anyone!! If people do ask me why I dress like I do, I simply tell them that I do it because I like to! That is the truth! I dress simply because I like to, not for sex or any other reason!

[sterling12]

My question would be about The Speaker you are trying to entice. Would it make any difference to The Speaker? Would Your Group's Sexual Needs have anything to do with The Subject of The Talk?

If you can't answer "Yes," then it's unnecessary! And, If you COULD answer "Yes," then I would wonder about The Motives or Mindset of Your Speaker.

I don't think we need to go out of our way to explain "how straight we are." It tends to piss-off other people in The LGBT Community, and it's really no one's business what we are doing! Explaining that we aren't Pedophiles, nor all Drag Queens, seems to be kind of nutty. Would somebody from The Kiwanis Club be making statements like that? So, why do we need to do it?

People are slowly but surely learning whom we are, and what we are about. If we spend a lot of time screeching about how "heterosexual" we are, we certainly run The Risk of being in a situation where people will probably assume, "The Lady doth protest too much!"

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Rachel Morley]

I think you have a valid point. We often can be our own worst enemy by saying what we are not .... which then in turn (whether they were thinking it or not) kinda brings to the fore a tentative association of what we were trying to get away from - with me?

If I ever chose to try to explain how crossdressing is for me, I usually follow along similar lines to Eddie Izzard when he says it's "male tomboy" and "male lesbian" ... in the sense that I'm a guy who acts (sometimes looks) and likes things that are normally associated with what girls are usually all about.

Quote: "Cause if you're a transvestite, you're actually a male tomboy, that's where the sexuality is. Yeah, it's not drag queen, no; gay men have got that covered. This is male tomboy, and people do get that mixed up, they put transvestite there - no no no no! Little bit of a crowbar separation, thank you! And gay men, I think, would agree. It's male lesbian, that's really where it is, ok? Because… it's true! ‘Cause most transvestites fancy girls, fancy women. So that's where it is.” - Eddie Izzard

[Dalece]

You know ladies all your points are correct. Have them ask questions on who we are I'm really surprised at how born GG can see the woman in me that i was born in a wrong body. and those who critizie you fro who you are or what you wear, Ask a woman don't you crossdress your self you wear male clothes don't you. Look at some of those clothes some woman wear there male jeans t shirts and even boxer shorts. I hope you understand what i'm trying to say. I am very happy to be who mI am now and the more I find out about myself it is easier to slip on my panties, nylons and put the bra on and slip that dress over my head. yes I'm proud to br a gurl and a transgender. Sorry got me started will now stop.

[Annaliese2010]

Is it possible to explain to a "civilian" in our society what a crossdresser is without spending all that time distancing ourselves from all the stereotypes that seem substitute for reality?Begin with the beginning. The outside reflects the inside, where it all starts. Briefly explain how there are some ppl who are born different from the majority who enjoy a sure and certain sense of being male OR female. Because as for any 'rule' there are exceptions, and so it is for gender identification. Some ppl who look mostly male by the attributes so clearly visible to others, i.e. how their bodies look, nevertheless have a sure and certain sense that they are more female than male relative to the normal societal definition of what is 'male' and 'female'. Explain that this is so by virtue of how they feel inside, that this is something you're born with, that it therefore runs to the core of one's being and so, one's inner mental/emotional states, as they manifest in a way that is spontaneous and natural for that person i.e. it is not contrived but simply is the natural way one thinks and feels, and thus, by extension, how one behaves, dresses, and in other ways expresses that which one is on the inside. Also...some males have a sure and certain sense that they are both male and female i.e. where there exists within one a much greater than average natural bias towards feminine attributes but that this does not overshadow or necessarily eclipse everything that is male in them. Thus such individuals have some mix of both genders blended inside them, and their challenge is to discover how to best express this in a way that is natural, even tho they do not so easily fall into either one or the other gender, but are a hybrid of both. This is more challenging from a dressing pov and forces one to get more inventive, and sort of define a look for oneself.

[eluuzion]

When I finished reading it I realized that much of the note was attempting to define crossdressers by what we are not.
Is it possible to explain to a "civilian" in our society what a crossdresser is without spending all that time distancing ourselves from all the stereotypes that seem substitute for reality?


Actually, using that "negative" approach is an effective technique for writing speeches, mission statements, etc. Whenever you get "stuck" or find you "can't start" or are "lost" as to topic and content, if you just turn it around and list the things you are not, or do not like, etc... What is left is what you ARE, or DO like. Well, that was interesting, but we are not writing novels here, eh? :battingeyelashes:

So, whenever I am faced with "defining" myself or a group of people...

Defining myself= I don't represent anything definable, nor do I feel you can "define" a person. You simply make your own judgments based on my actions
and character.

Defining Crossdressers...Similar explanation. No two people are identical to the extent that they could be "defined" in any all encompassing manner. What is possible is to simply say they are a diverse group of people that share a common interest...crossdressing.

Best I can do...:thumbsup:

[Stephenie S]

Originally Posted by Karen_Ski
Sarah, the other gurls here have given you excellent advice as to what we are. Sadfly thre is still a large percentage of the population you have to start with "what we are not." Just tell them of yourself and what you are and how you feel about this aspect of your life. Good luck I know you will do us all proud.

Kelly wrote:

I am curious to see where this information about many or large ( or whatever adjective is used) percentages of the population or "society" is intolerant or against us? I just don't see it. I don't see it in my day to day interaction with the mainstream, nor do I see it in the posts where people have gone out in public. I don't see news stories or read about it in the newspapers. I don't hear about it from the cder's and transsexuals or transgendered people that I hang out with. I don't get it from my mainstream friends,co-workers, or clients. Oh sure, once in a while ther may be an incident, but the way that a lot of people describe it.. you'ed think that there was some kind of organized movement where tons of us were being rounded up and tortured or persecuted. Are there statistics or have the mainstream been polled? studies conducted? Can anyone direct me to where I might be able to see or read about this for myself? help!

Kelly is absolutely correct here. This information is hard to find because it doesn't exist. There is no data supporting the theory that most of the world hates crossdressers because most of the world DOESN'T hate crossdressers.

The FACT is that 99.9% of the people in the world don't give one sweet flying patootie WHAT you wear. They are FAR too wrapped up in their own problems and concerns to devote more than a passing glance your way. Those who have actually gone out all know this. Those still closeted DON'T, obviously.

Look girls, by now, EVERYONE has seen Oprah. Everyone knows about crossdressers. And guess what? People who WORK with the public see crossdressers often. As hard as it may be for some of you to imagine, you are NOT the only crossdresser in the world. Crossdressers are EVERYWHERE. Crossdressers go to the store, they go to the gas station, they go to the bank, they go to church, they go to the movies, and they ride the bus and fly in airplanes. Anyone who works with the public has seen and dealt with crossdressers in the course of their job. You won't be the first and you won't be the last.

Get with the program guys! NOBODY CARES! You are just not that important. Get over yourself. Rob a bank, and maybe you will attract some attention. But drive to the convenience store in a wig? NOBODY CARES!

Auntie Stephenie

[Sarah Doepner]

Thanks all for the great and thoughtful responses.

I made the post partly because I had just realized how much I was responding to questions that were not posed by the potential speaker, but have been lingering in the back of my own mind. The speaker is very familiar with the GLBT community, but didn't seem to have a clue about where crossdressers fit in or what Tri-Ess was. It kind of blew my mind, so off I went attempting to provide the background needed before they show up with an something like an HIV awareness talk that wouldn't meet our needs at all. It seems the stereotypes in popular media that tend to be exaggerated or totally wrong get the play, not good examples like Kelly or Tamara or so many other girls on this site.

And you are right about people not really caring if it doesn't directly effect them. We have many more stories about girls going out without incidents than stories where there were problems. Has anyone ever counted the stories and compared Column A with Column B?

Finally, I saw my own need to begin defining myself in a positive framework. I've spent too many years letting fear, stereotypes and misinformation take the lead. I guess it should be obvious that being myself and honestly answering the questions only when they come up, rather than projecting my fears, will be much more positive for me and other Crossdressers. And if no one asks a question I'm just fine with that.

[kimdl93]

agree with the concensus that we are just people who happen to dress in the garments of the other gender with an array of different motivations (mostly differences of degree).

As for explaining to another person, that's much the same problem. Each person hearing an explanation will filter it through his/her prejudices, experiences, general knowledge etc and come up with an equally wide array of opinions. Nothing we can do to assure that any individual will come away with a more enlightened attitude... but...

A good friend once told me to remember that "other peoples opinions of me were none of my business." good thing to remember.

[Elle1946]

My two cents is that we are generally hetrosexual men that enjoy our feminine side more openly than other men.

[ReineD]

percentages of the population or "society" is intolerant or against us? I just don't see it. ...

Can anyone direct me to where I might be able to see or read about this for myself

For us, it is only occasionally an odd look. SAs and restaurant personnel are always nice. A good's friend's husband has found acceptance within their Church community. But we haven't attempted to make friends outside the GLBT community in femme mode, so there is no telling if people would be cooler.

But, I've taken part in conversations where people have aired their opinions about CDers (not knowing that I am involved with one) and the opinions have not been favorable. I don't know how this would change if they knew. I like to think that faced with a CD, they would try to be open minded.

The rest of the evidence is in the posts here about family members who disapprove. And the people who lose jobs. And the few but well publicized murders of TGs because they are TG. But then other people get murdered for non-gender differences.

Also, I think it makes a big difference whether someone is stealth or close to stealth (young, smallish stature, on HRT) and someone who has the more manly attibutes.

[Cassandra Lynn]

I am curious to see where this information about many or large ( or whatever adjective is used) percentages of the population or "society" is intolerant or against us? I just don't see it. I don't see it in my day to day interaction with the mainstream, nor do I see it in the posts where people have gone out in public. I don't see news stories or read about it in the newspapers. I don't hear about it from the cder's and transsexuals or transgendered people that I hang out with. I don't get it from my mainstream friends,co-workers, or clients. Oh sure, once in a while ther may be an incident, but the way that a lot of people describe it.. you'ed think that there was some kind of organized movement where tons of us were being rounded up and tortured or persecuted. Are there statistics or have the mainstream been polled? studies conducted? Can anyone direct me to where I might be able to see or read about this for myself? help!

Kel

Your right there is no data, just each of our perceptions about the society that we are in contact with, and that which we see and read. My perception is tainted by 2 ex-wives who in the end both told me in plain terms to my face that i was abnormal, and there are others here as well who have been there. Granted there are some very wonderful GGs here to counter that.
Please don't take this wrong Kelly, but not all of us look like you do, nor do we live in Las Vegas. The fellow who is 6' 1 and 230 lbs. living in Fargo, SD. or Butte, Ma. is not going to get the same mileage that you do, and he is also not going to know as many CD/TG people to get a similar perception from, cause they are hiding behind closed doors.
While we all agree with you and Allie and others who have said as much, that we shouldn't feel this way, your perception as i noted is not and this is my opinion only, what the "greater society" says.
Great thread Sarah, and i unfortunately agree with you, the fact is alot of people need to know what we are not.
I also am not sure of the simple notion of describing us as people who wear the clothes of the other gender, it's too simple of a definition for something that is not that simple. I identify as bi-gendered and the clothes are just one aspect, albeit the most visible. mj (Cassie)

[Frédérique]

Is it possible to explain to a "civilian" in our society what a crossdresser is without spending all that time distancing ourselves from all the stereotypes that seem substitute for reality?

I would explain the tactile pleasures one feels for things, and come to crossdressing by that angle. Some people may relate to that, but I know there are tactile-illiterates everywhere whose senses are sound asleep. If you like looking at pretty colors, or if you have an aptitude for pattern recognition, or if you enjoy patting a cat, it’s not much of a leap to understand why someone would want to crossdress, but I’m only talking about one aspect of it. That’s all I can talk about, since it is what I know. As such, the CD/TG stereotypes that inhabit peoples’ minds confuse me, and I cannot hope to dislodge them. I usually project a viewpoint that advocates variety and tolerance, since I know there are a million shades of grey between black and white. Most people can only handle polar opposites, so it takes a lot of effort to open eyes and explain subtle differences…:eek:

What I am: A crossdresser, a transvestite, a sensualist...
What I am not: Normal...:heehee:

[kellycan27]

Also, I think it makes a big difference whether someone is stealth or close to stealth (young, smallish stature, on HRT) and someone who has the more manly attibutes.

Might that be me? LOL. Ok, I get ya, I can see where someone with a vested interest( Like an SO) might find it unsettling,but what I am trying to say is that I don't think that most really care one way or another. Even those who may not agree aren't likely to do us any harm. " I might not like it, but whateverrrrrrrrrr"

Cassie

I have lived here for most of my life and I haven't always "looked like this" and I have friends that simply cd and don't try to look like or be a woman who have not encountered people who have ever done anything but maybe stare,point or giggle. If you think about it Las Vegas may prove to be an excellent proving ground in that we have people here from other cities,towns, state and countries. Kind of a ramdom sampling of "society". That goes from people who are tourists to people who have reloacted here. We encounter these people in the hotels,bars,casinos, grocery stores,gas stations.. you name it. And our population is contantly changing.

[Kara Connor]

One of the reasons it is tempting to explain what we are not are organizations such as the one described in this story:

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/04/02/do-you-want-men-dressed-as-women-teaching-your-kids

The bigots at the Traditional Values Coalition ask "Do you want men dressed as women teaching your kids?" because they believe they can play on the stereotypes that some segments of society have. Try substituting "fire fighters" or "doctors" for "women" in the question. The implication is that we are dangerous deviants. Of course, we know that we are no more likely to be that than is the general population, and indeed are probably less likely.

So whilst I agree that we shouldn't have to explain ourselves, look back at the "gay liberation" movement and you will see that some of it was educating society that gay people are perfectly normal people with a different sexual orientation. The fact that being gay or lesbian is now pretty mainstream is in part due to the educative effect of the gay community "explaining" themselves. I certainly think that we should use individual opportunities to enlighten people, and this can be effective in showing that we are productive people, doing no harm to others, doing what makes us happy.

And yes, I would be quite happy to have my kids taught by a man dressed as a woman, provided that they were a good teacher. I would not want them being taught by bigots.

[Cassandra Lynn]

Cassie

I have lived here for most of my life and I haven't always "looked like this" and I have friends that simply cd and don't try to look like or be a woman who have not encountered people who have ever done anything but maybe stare,point or giggle. If you think about it Las Vegas may prove to be an excellent proving ground in that we have people here from other cities,towns, state and countries. Kind of a ramdom sampling of "society". That goes from people who are tourists to people who have reloacted here. We encounter these people in the hotels,bars,casinos, grocery stores,gas stations.. you name it. And our population is contantly changing.
Yes i can totally see the folks from a more liberal and less populated area coming to Vegas and getting an eyeful as it were and hopefully realizing as they do, that life goes on and they weren't accosted by that man in a dress. It would be nice if that man in the dress gives them a kind smile and a hello as well. "Did you see that Ralph, and he seemed so nice"!
Hopefully when they get home to BF, USA they will remember that and be a little more open minded, so i like your thoughts on that. Of course there will also be those that will get home and think, ok i'm back with the conservative and close minded, book thumpers and i have to blend in, so if the neighbor says that men in dresses are a bunch of blankety blanks and should be posted and stoned in the town square, then i have to agree.
I know i sound like a real pessimist, but i see it and hear it all the time. Boise is a progressive city with a young and thriving night life and large Univ (Go Broncos!), so we have all kinds of people here, but the state in general is very conservative, no offense, but we have a huge Mormon pop. here. There is a lady where i work who may be a transitioning F2M or maybe a butchish, boish lesbian, but she gets treated poorly (frankly i walk away when i hear it), and while it's just back talk and cold shoulders, it can easily be more depending on who and where.
This all kind of goes with something else you (and others) mentioned, i agree with you that out and about most of us, no matter how passable, will probably not be threatened or treated harshly, but that doesn't mean if they were to respond to one of these make believe polls we talk about, that they wouldn't talk unfavorably. Won't affect our daily outings, but for the sake of this conversation and the OP, i still feel that society by and large is not forgiving and accepting. Thank you Kelly, for not taking my reply as a slam on you. mj (Cassie)

[kellycan27]

This all kind of goes with something else you (and others) mentioned, i agree with you that out and about most of us, no matter how passable, will probably not be threatened or treated harshly, but that doesn't mean if they were to respond to one of these make believe polls we talk about, that they wouldn't talk unfavorably. Won't affect our daily outings, but for the sake of this conversation and the OP, i still feel that society by and large is not forgiving and accepting. Thank you Kelly, for not taking my reply as a slam on you. mj (Cassie)

Why should we care what they say on these "make believe" polls? As long as we are treated fairly ,not harmed or threatened? I don't like squirrels, but I don't go kicking them around :heehee: If polled about it I'd probably say... I hate squirrels.
The harm in posting statements like "the majority of society hates us" is that other's like ourselves who read this tend to accept it as gospel. When in reality there is no concrete evidence to prove that it's true. as they may not have anything else to gauge it. Stuff may very well happen, but I have to say that I believe that it is the exception, and not the rule. We can educate the masses, but there are still going to be the narrowed minded ones that are not going to garner anything from it. The ones who do understand are probably the same ones that wouldn't do anything in the first place.
Don't you believe that we are harming ourselves by making such statements? Who is going to venture out if they think EVERYBODY or even the MAJORITY hate us?
I know the world isn't perfect, but it's all we have

Remember: It's the heart afraid of breaking that never learns to dance, it's the dream afraid of waking that never takes the chance, and the soul afraid of dying that never learns to live. " The Rose"

Kel

[SusieK]

Many of us at various times have a sense of guilt and shame about CDing. The reason? the fact that we are signed up members of the same society that we want to accept us. If WE have a problem with it, then how can we expect someone who doesn't have the CD urges bubbling around their mind to take the time to see beyond the stereotypes? WE are the evidence of the views that exist in society. So, yes, the first task may well need to be an explanation of negatives. CDing is NOT a cause for guilt or shame. Encountering CDers is NOT a just cause for intolerance.

I am a CDer, I am a member of society, I have been guilty of pre-judging other CDers.

I'm not proud of this, but it gives me a realistic view of what others may be thinking, if not acting upon.

Got to stop now, as Eddie Izzard is on TV.:)

Susie

[Annaliese2010]

...Also, I think it makes a big difference whether someone is stealth or close to stealth (young, smallish stature, on HRT) and someone who has the more manly attibutes.I think that's ALL it comes down to, quite frankly. People judge each other mainly by 'looks'. It wasn't always the case if you go far enough back in history, but today's world is EXTREMELY visual-oriented. So much so it even sounds strange to put it that way. But it's true *sigh*. And with it comes a very strong material-bias. We have become committed to and vested in the visual realm of experience. It shapes us, our perception, judgment, thinking and feeling. Compared to emotion and cognition, and how the other senses function - visual processing takes an incredible amount energy. It is a constant on-going preoccupation. The bit rate of the visual process would saturate a typical hard drive within seconds! Information routinely streams from eye-to-brain via the optic nerve at an astounding rate of 40 Gb/second. And it doesn't just happen, it requires energy; biochemical (ATP) energy. The visual system predominates attention, awareness and perception from the moment you open your eyes in the morning to when you close them at night - and well into the night when your brain finally has a chance to process, judge, categorize and parse into long-term (stable, non-volatile) memory all the shit that's been accumulating all day, swirling around as spatio-temporal wave-forms in a holding pattern (memory echo's) or short-term (volatile) memory i.e. need to wipe the slate clean b4 the next onslaught tomorrow - or quite literally go psycho-insane. Compared to even 50 years ago the demands made on our ability to receive process and deal with visual information has profoundly increased. We live in a visual maelstrom and are bombarded with so much visual information we are drawn outside ourselves and 'into the world'. We have lost depth and become stuck on superficiality. Everyone and everything is judged by first impression, in fact within milliseconds: "How does it/she/he look?". And when it comes down to navigating the great oceans of the impersonal public, especially when walking alone and therefore without the acceptability imprimatur that the company of friends provides...you're a sittin duck...no matter who you are. Why should it be different for CD'ers? The only difference really is one of extent, not process. For we are magnets and worthy of a bit more scrutiny - but only because we're not what's served up everyday at the local restaurant friendly neighborhood pub church temple synagogue or mosk (how the hell u spell that?). But I revel in the attention, to be honest (heehee). Use it. It's fun if you're satisfied with your 'looks' and otherwise don't give a damn. Like...why sould you fc'n care anyways? I mean...DO you? 'Cuz think bout it...Who are They? Do you really fcn care what the general public thinks? No, you don't wanna be stupid and lose your job or pissoff your fam... So choose your turf, find some rational thinking ppl, make em your frineds and just do what you want. And if you're out 'n about alone sometimes just make sure you're locked 'n loaded, packin heat. I mean it's your right to protect your self! That is...if you're livin in the U.S. of A., eh? Just be sensitive to others though. But...most ppl are goodly, mean no harm and are...just misguided 'innocents' lacking...the wider scope of vision we just assume so...smile, have patience and don't hurt anyone (unnecessarily).

To answer your question: I am ME. Like it or not here I am and here I come! Happy days we're goin all the way. Oh... la - la - la - lalalala - la - la - la. Go all the way with me - go all the way! Tonight lightening strikes, lets go into Twilight...

[ReineD]

m-o-s-q-u-e.

If you had to use visuals to prove that they pack a punch, couldn't you have used a supernova or something? ;)

[Annaliese2010]

thanks for the spelling...tho ur supernova metaphor loses me but...it doesn't matter 'cause ur cute...as most female immortals are...g'nite babe...

p.s. OH! haha...yea i get it...nova as in supermassive black hole (i think? hm... no fair, not as smart as you...). but that's my favorite scene...with that song playing in the background...1st he casually flips the bat with one hand walking up to home plate...then that one moment JUST when Jasper swings and...slo-mo freeze frame - BAM he hits Rosalie's pitch out of the effin meadow...

[ReineD]

No. Big bang, without the violent connotations associated with guns. We are a peaceful, nurturing, and sensitive people. lol. And supernovas are prettier than Colts. :)

[Annaliese2010]

No. Big bang, without the violent connotations associated with guns.I know what you're saying but imho I'm just saying one has to use violence to oppose violence, is all. You know how it is here. Well...here anyways...where not too far away there is a big CIT-tay w/rel high unemployment...
We are a peaceful, nurturing, and sensitive people. lol.Aw, I know and I am too believe me...just also wanna stay alive lol.
And supernovas are prettier than Colts. :)Yea they are...

[inessa]

Everyone I have ever talked to about dressing ask the same questions. Are you gay? That's what everyone wants to know and I think they have a hard time accepting that most CDs are not gay. You can see it in their faces that they just don't believe.