To Pass or not to Pass

[t-girlxsophie]

Ive been thinking a lot about this,through reading various threads on here.
I think this Desire to Pass can be a very destructive thing,It gets in the way of dressing to be yourself and to live your feminine life to the full.If we are really being honest very few of us genuinely Pass,me included A lot of us may blend in,but I wouldnt say many Pass,but does this make us any less worthy as CDers i don't think so

I know this is a tad hypocritical,if I did pass I would be ecstatic,Personally I think though its a trade off for the other parts of my CD life that have turned out right.I applaud those that do pass,this isn't a winge at you,But I just feel that we should just go out and Enjoy ourselves,Look well turned out and dressed Nice of course but go and have fun without the worry of whether you look Passable,remember not everyone out there is an oil painting.

[prene]

I want to pass. I understand I have a shadow after 7pm and have man hands. I am a little tall plus 6' in heels.

I fantasise about being more feminine. I love the feminine lifestyle.

I don't know where I am going with this . . . .

Harsh reality t-girlxsophie.

I will still fantasize and try to get closer and closer to the feminine look.

....

[noeleena]

Hi.

As you know im out all the time , & with Jos my s o & our granddaughter of 7 , to day we went to the swiming pool a inside one , so Jos stayed with Dejarn for about an hour , she had a good time playing with others as well , so i went off to do a few things , while out & about i normaly meet up with people from our groups from waimate & get talking ,
After ,i went back to the pool it was time to go for some food so off to mac town for a treat for Dejarn . a few people were there . & on the way out Jos said a few people were looking at me pretty normal not those of cause who see me a lot, school holidays here so we get a few coming through . so they wont know me .

Because im well known even some from the schools in oamaru will say hi ,

For me im not bothered . as i stand out, my clothes are skirt, tee top, boots low heel ,a sleveless top come zip up front, so really normal dress wear .
except for my headwear & that will drew attention because very few people wear them . its a scarve one of many & most people who know me see that & know who i am .
Okay so for the ? the answer is no i dont pass , Id love to hear there comments tho . yet my friends who know me have said they think that i look great & would tell me different if i looked stupid in what i wear , & some times & even to day was no different many women dont look at me they look down at my boots ,
they are normal brown boots a bit like work boots just nicer .so what is it about me wearing boots . & its not the first time . it happens a lot . Any way it was a good day out ,

So really a day out doing what we do every week except for having Dejarn with us & going to the pool .

...noeleena...

[Joanne f]

Because CDing is so diverse it will never really have the right or wrong answer as some will worry about that and some will not and some have all intentions of doing that and some will have no intentions of doing it , but (always that but):heehee: i expect you would be right in thinking that it stops a lot from doing what they would like to do .
There are good points about wanting to do it as there are also good points in saying it should not be necessary to do it .

[ellenwannabe]

I like the word blend

[eluuzion]

I really do not believe I have ever "passed" or "fit in" or "fell into a catagory" or "belonged" anywhere my entire life. I was ok with that as a kid and I am ok with it now as an "adult kid", lol.

My goal in life has always been the same. At the end, I want to be looking back at the memories of all of the things I did do in life.....Not look back and regret a bunch of things I wish I had found the courage to do...but did not.

So far, I am still on target...

[tamarav]

When I go out I don't want to blend or hide in a crowd, I want to be the one people actually focus on. But, I am very happy with what I do, have a professional reason to back up my look, and can handle myself.

Passing is an unknown for most of society, except us. We define our ability to go out in public and not make any waves as "passing". I think that is bunk. Everyone passes, it is just how they feel about themselves. I have this discussion with my co-workers, all women, and they think we are all nuts. Why would a person stay locked up when they had self-imposed doubts about how society would view them? They would stay in the closet, so to speak, all their lives, living miserable doubting lives of despair.

Not me! I got over that. I go anywhere. I work dressed, whether others think I "Pass" or not. I don't hide behind others, I step right out and greet those that may think they can overcome me with rude remarks.

"Passing" is a mindset, not reality. If it wasn't there would not be any overweight, ugly, or broad shoudlered women out there.

[Kierci]

Well I have said it before. My personnal opinion is this here : A crossdresser dresses clothes of the other sex for personnal pleasure not trying to pass in public. A TV is a crossdresser that dresses for pleasure and to try to "pass" as the other sex at least sometimes. A TG welll this is a person who was born into one body not matching the mind its not a pass or dont pass as it is a need to make the mind match the body match the mind. again I hope I dont offend anyone but this is my measley mind sees things, right or wrong hey who really is to say?:2c::love:

[kellycan27]

There are a million schools of thought on this "passing" question. As you mentioned, it's important to some, and of no consequence to others, "I would rather blend than to pass", "It's all about attitude and self confidence", "passing is subjective" ( which I believe to be true).My stock answer is........" Passing" is important to "ME" because it allows me the opportunity to live my life with basically the same anonmity that you may enjoy in your drab mode.

[charlie]

Hello t-girl!
The dream of passing for me would just mean that I don't have to worry about situations in the "ladies room", being stared at, or mocked (worse yet hit) in public. Lets face it, those of us that go out just dress as the best woman we can be, grab the keys and go through the door. What happens, happens. Fortunately, nothing bad has happened yet. So I guess I can blend to some extent. Pass...no.

[Katesback]

The P word is soooooo sooooo problematic! I have known genetic women that have mannerisms and appearances that dont fit the norms. They sometimes get called on even though they are genetic women.

I have known transsexual women (myself included) that occasionally get clocked even after YEARS of presenting to the world a woman ALL the time.

To be seamless is akin to someone becomming a professional football player. You simply cannot be at the level of pro with a part time effort! The same applies to a female presentation.

Now on the other hand if you make an effort and carry yourself with confidence and have no shame. If you act like you belong in the environment that you are in. If you have a sense of humor and smile......people will not care for the most part. They will clock you but they wont give you a hard time!

As stated it is all the attitude!

[Nicole Erin]

Worrying about "passing" does hinder enjoyment of life. I know when I would go out dressed totally en femme I would worry non-stop if I was "passing". It got to the point where I said, "why do I even bother with this crap, it causes more grief than anything".

Kate said you cannot be at a pro level with a part time effort - quite true, I think many people forget that in their daily efforts of whatever they wish to perfect. Guilty here. :o

And then a contrast - Kelly wants to blend in, go unnoticed, while Tamara wants to stand out. See folks, we each have different goals. Those are examples of two extremes. And then everything inbetween.


I like the word blend
Yeah it is a more realistic goal. Easier than passing.
My favorite is "accepted". Accepted means - people know you are CD/TS, but still want to be friends, or do business, or chat, they accept YOU, regardless of gender. I have some friends that accept me, be I wearing jeans and tee or something pretty. I am just (man name) to them, OK fine, would rather be Erin, but friends are more important than anything. :hugs: so it is cool.

I think the best advice here is from Tamarav.

Eluuzion said about not fitting in. Well, for all humans, we always tend to look at our limits and think we are different. We all think we are stuck in the middle. We all think we got shit on by life somehow. We all think "if only". But remember, you are unique, just like everyone else.

I am sure there is some catchy phrase spoken by someone wiser than me, but in many ways, all humans think they are on the outside looking in.

If you don't pass well, OK, so be it. Why not make the best of things? I don't pass, and don't live as a woman yet, but it sure as hell doesn't stop me from doing what I want.

[kellycan27]

I didn't say I wanted to blend and go unnoticed, what I meant was that I just would like to be treated as a woman in much the same way as so called "normal" people are treated whether it be garnering attention in the public eye or what have you. :hugs:

Kel

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i like Kelly's comment regarding anonymity ....that sums it up for me... i'm not an extrovert, i'm not an exhibitionist..i just want to relax and be comfortable in my own life.

i never passed much until recently..still not close to 100% but doing well....its so fundamentally and completely different than "not" passing i can't put it in words...its wonderful to feel that you belong when you spent your whole life not belonging

[Lexine]

I agree with tamarav's point that passing definitely has something to do with how you feel about yourself. Even without a female voice, for as long as I'm confident with myself, I can pass for a woman just because I know who I am inside and because I feel that I don't have to prove myself to anyone other than me and my own standards. To me, CDing is and always will be about a means to express ourselves or a side of ourselves that's seldom seen.

[msginaadoll]

I do not pass but depending where I'm at I also dont want to be the circus freak. I believe you can dress classy and with style or even dress down and look your best. If you make an effort, I believe as a whole people are accepting. The way I figure it people will accept me most times as a woman like figure.

[Jessica Who]

Yes, passing can get in the way of dressing, depending on how much importance you put on it. Slowly but surely I'm coming to terms with my giant man hands and feet that give me away

[Angiemead12]

im all for passing if it means to be treated like any other human being! but its difficult with my broad shoulders, man hands, adams apple, 6'4 in height with heels, and low voice!

I have only been out once and I didnt pass! but I still enjoyed it because the resto staff were really nice! And I even got to use the ladies room!

[Sophie_C]

Since this is a perennial question and never ends, does anyone agree with me that this should just be made a sticky? I know it's a mod thing, but it just seems the right way to approach a subject that always resurfaces...

[ReineD]

My favorite is "accepted". Accepted means - people know you are CD/TS, but still want to be friends, or do business, or chat, they accept YOU, regardless of gender. I have some friends that accept me, be I wearing jeans and tee or something pretty.

Well said! :)

[RachelPortugal]

Since this is a perennial question and never ends, does anyone agree with me that this should just be made a sticky? I know it's a mod thing, but it just seems the right way to approach a subject that always resurfaces...

I agree, this follows similar lines to my "Crossdressers' Identity" thread from a few weeks ago where I wrote:

I have read so many threads here about "passing" and I wondered why we have to pass. Sorry it a long one, but I wanted to share my thoughts.

Yes there are those amongst us who are transitioning or wanting to live totally as their female persona, so passing (or should I say being accepted as a female) is important to them.

For those many others, including myself, who want to get out and about crossdressed, total passability should not be an issue. Let face it, for most of us, it is a time consuming challenge - make-up, body hair, breast-forms, wig, not to mention voice and height issues.

Wouldn't it be great if crossdressers could be openly accepted for what we are, just men in skirts (or dresses). In some respects that may already be so.


Rachael

[Annaliese2010]

Life is too short...there's too many other things that fascinate me, places I wanna go, things I wanna do, goals to reach, girls to meet... for me to worry so much about such things. My philosophy is to never play a game I can't win and that's exactly what the Passing Game is to me; a losing proposition. So why bother? I'll be damned if I get caught up at the starting line!

Oh believe me...I so admire CD/TG girls that look so fine you'd never know it unless you were lucky enough to date one and come to know it as your relationship transitions into one that is physical. But these are the exceptional exception to the rule. For these lucky beautiful few were by chance born with a more delicate, pretty or cute face and physique that can easily pass as feminine. And if someone like this undergoes counseling and HRT at a very early age the results can be absolutely stunning. But such is not the case for the vast majority of CD/TG's *sigh* who will forever possess some or a many male body features. For the latter to play the Passing Game is imo, a fools errand if the target audience is the general public.

Did you ever see a GG who is tomboyish or "butch" (idk the better term for this and apologize if it is considered derisive). How they tend to dress more male-like w/o trying to pass for a male? Well...I take a hint from them and try to strike a balance that represents me. I try to stay current wrt new fashion and makeup trends simply by reading magazines like Glamour, Cosmo, Vogue and Allure. If whats out there looks good on me as is, I'll buy the clothing outright. If not, I will try to at least be in sync with whats hip, or the current general style with a mix of mens/womens clothing that works, and whatever then fab color is for whatever season. Then by careful attention to your accessorizing, you can glam up or down as needed, depending on whatsup for the weekend. What usually results is a simple cooridnated ensemble that has def feminine flare, if not very femme AND one that accommodates my unalterable male features, softening them, yea ok, but not in any ultimately futile attempt to negate or hide whats underneath there --> ME! My smooth, sexy, healthy, hungry ready body! I got nothin to lose, nothin to hide and nothin to prove to no one. I got bod, got pride and wanna have fun using both! Having fun with what ya got is a better game to play. One you can win!

[sherri52]

Most of us would love to pass. I know I do not pass no matter what others may tell me. I do however feel comfortable when I go out enfemme. I don't travel like Kim or Natasha but I do enjoy my time out enfemme. Maybe I have gotten to the stage of "I don't care what people think" but my time enfemme is mine and if I turn heads then I get to snicker as I pass them by.

[Sarah Michelle]

As I was reading these posts and forming my own thoughts, [would love to pass but not likely to, dress because I feel more comfortable in these than in drab] I was struck by the comment by eluuzion. Like her, I've never really fit in where-ever I was, whatever I was doing. I have always been masquerading so as to conform.
Like so many others, I don't want to pass as one or the other, I just want to be accepted as someone in the middle.

[Misty is Kindafem]

Passing" is important to "ME"

I agree with the smokin' hot Kelly

I don't know why this is even a matter of discussion.

It's difficult for me to work up much concern over another girl's intentions to pass or not, and I sure as hell don't give a damn what somebody thinks of mine.

Listen up, I'm working to pass, period. Its my goal and I will achieve it. If that's offensive to you than you may as well learn to deal with it because I'm not going anywhere.

The "anti-passers" are tiresome. If passing is such a lost cause then why even bother to shave? Why put on makeup? Why wear a wig?

You live your life and I'll live mine.


"nobody wants to look like Tootsie"

-Misty

[CharleneT]

. . . i'm not an exhibitionist..i just want to relax and be comfortable in my own life.

i never passed much until recently..still not close to 100% but doing well....its so fundamentally and completely different than "not" passing i can't put it in words...its wonderful to feel that you belong when you spent your whole life not belonging

BINGO ! Very well put !!

there is a "zen" to it ;)

[TrekGirl1701]

The P word is soooooo sooooo problematic! I have known genetic women that have mannerisms and appearances that dont fit the norms. They sometimes get called on even though they are genetic women.

Oh, definitely! Especially younger women. I've seen girls/women dressed like punk rockers. Either because they are or they're just fans of punk rock. They look totally different from other women, and, yes, they do get strange looks from people, and, yes, they do have people talking about them.

The same goes for men! I work with a fellow who really puts people off because his style of dress is pretty "out there", but he's actually a pretty well-spoken person.

The old saying "Never judge a book by its cover" is perfect in these situations.

[Katesback]

I play roller derby. Many of the girls on my team have tattoos and dress in a way that is atypical. We are what we are I suppose. If you want to see some of thier pictures as well as mine you can visit the web site for the team. goldcoastderbygrrls.com

P.S. I am the one that is putting the site toghether. It has been a work in progress but I have had about 5000 hits in less than a month since it has been up and running.

[Annaliese2010]

I agree with the smokin' hot Kelly

I don't know why this is even a matter of discussion.

It's difficult for me to work up much concern over another girl's intentions to pass or not, and I sure as hell don't give a damn what somebody thinks of mine.

Listen up, I'm working to pass, period. Its my goal and I will achieve it. If that's offensive to you than you may as well learn to deal with it because I'm not going anywhere.

The "anti-passers" are tiresome. If passing is such a lost cause then why even bother to shave? Why put on makeup? Why wear a wig?

You live your life and I'll live mine.


"nobody wants to look like Tootsie"

-MistyI hear ya, you're looking good and it's working for you (and it's cool it is and probably will ever more so in time) but...I don't think it's an all-or-nothing (pro/anti) choice as you are trying to frame it babe. I myself do not judge others for playing the Passing Game, though by your avy it obviously works for you and a 'game' you're 'winning' i.e. its the right way to go....for You....but not everyone is so fortunate. I guess what I'm suggesting is there are alternatives to the 100% all-out go for broke look-like-a-woman full feminization route. However I certainly do not mean to imply that being unshaven, unkempt, un-femme is okay! Good god girl, how awful! See...for me, idk... I simply choose not to try to emulate a GG woman for a number of reasons: it's hugely time consuming, I got other stuff I wanna do with my time, and I simply don't think it's right for me. But that does not mean I'm gonna be unshaven (unthinkable!) nor look like a 'man in woman's clothing'. Ewww?!

In fact... I have a smooth body ev-rywhere, wear the latest makeup and even though I'm not always in a skirt when I go out, and certainly not so at work, still...what I wear reflects the latest styles, colors, fabrics and feel - and well yea, probly my mood on any given day. So...I have my own style, one that is a mix. I mean...you have it better than you realize when you go shopping. Do you think it's easy to define your own style? One that's aesthetically viable, isn't out-there or strange looking? It's not, precisely because I have a strong sense of style, what's pretty, what's not, what works, what doesn't. I sometimes wish it weren't so. Can be a curse to have such a gift but...it does allow me to do perhaps what few are able to do correctly: to expresses the fem side of me to the degree I consider just right. I get 'looks' enough from both men (eww!) and women (yay!) to know I'm cute, pretty and sexy...well ok, attractive enough anyways. However, at 1st glance I don't think people know what to think bout me; how to categorize me...but are attracted nonetheless. I admit though...sometimes there's nothing more fun than to go... femme all the way from head to tippy toe.


Oh, definitely! Especially younger women. I've seen girls/women dressed like punk rockers. Either because they are or they're just fans of punk rock. They look totally different from other women, and, yes, they do get strange looks from people, and, yes, they do have people talking about them.Those kind of girls, totally Hot imo...even more so if they're bi.

[Freddy12]

I hope someday to come close to being able to pass.

IF it ever happens it will be far in the future. For now, getting up the courage to go into stores and try on skirts, bras dresses, etc. is the next step.

There is a wide range of people reading on this website, and they are in different places. I don't think we should be critical of those that are trying to pass or others who are not trying to pass. We are all struggling.

[SuzanneBender]

i'm not an extrovert, i'm not an exhibitionist..i just want to relax and be comfortable in my own life...its wonderful to feel that you belong when you spent your whole life not belonging


Worrying about "passing" does hinder enjoyment of life...See folks, we each have different goals. Those are examples of two extremes. And then everything inbetween.

Accepted means - people know you are CD/TS, but still want to be friends, or do business, or chat, they accept YOU, regardless of gender.

What a great thread! I don't think I could have summed up my feelings about this any better than Nicole or Kaitlyn did.

The best candies are the ones that have an oohhey gooey perfect yumminess on the inside. You know what? Those confections rarely look perfect on the outside. Some of the finest moments in life is letting others sample whats inside despite the outside shell.

[Lynn Marie]

CDing is very much like any other hobby with me. I'm contiually challenging myself to get better at it. Passing is not my goal though. Boldness and confidence en femme is.

[Annaliese2010]

To boldly go where few have gone before!

To skip 'n dance where wise men never trance.

[jenny1971]

I know I will never be able to pass, given my physical attributes. I certainly wish that I would have been shorter, smaller and able to pass - but I have accepted the facts and since I nearly only dress at home, I don't feel sorry about not being able to pass anymore.

[Misty is Kindafem]

I hear ya, you're looking good and it's working for you (and it's cool it is and probably will ever more so in time) but...I don't think it's an all-or-nothing (pro/anti) choice as you are trying to frame it babe.

Well, you sure know how to get me to zip it ;-)

First, thank you so much for the sweet compliments. :o

Second, I must not be making my point very clearly because smart girls are missing it.

In my efforts to be brief (brevity is the soul of wit, after all) yet still mildly profound, I think I may be soft peddling my main point.

Annaliese darling, You and I are in agreement. I was not trying to frame a pass or no pass argument. I was just saying that for many of us it means something and each tiny little improvement is worth every ounce of effort. Um, an ounce of victory is worth a pound of battle, if you will.

Just because some girls don't give a whit about passing does NOT mean it's a pointless endeavor to those of us who want it. It's funny that it's not enough for people to be passionate about something, they have to despise something else on the flip-side. So I'm passionate about "passing" and I'll keep working until I get it done. Does that mean I should also detest others who don't share my passion? I have absolutely no interest in not shaving for a few weeks and going out in a dress with no wig. There are those that do and they have my respect and admiration. Do I have to hate something just because I don't "get" it?

My original rant was triggered by the flurry of posts that seemed to suggest that our efforts to pass are foolish and unnecessary. That the "enlightened" gals have moved on to more worthy pursuits. That's fine for them and I wish happiness for all of my sisters, but some of us have a different point of view and I don't appreciate the high and mighty attitude of the "no passers".

Awww, she's still trying to pass, poor thing.

-Misty

[gabimartini]

I believe the most important thing is to have fun expressing our femininity through our CDing. Personal objectives and possibilities will differ across the board. As long as it makes each individual happy, that's what matters.

My two cents.

[PattiMichaels]

We all have our own reasons why we do what we do.

Crossing the line between fantasy and reality may entail coming to grips with some harsh realities. As cold as that sounds on the surface, reality is simply reality.

Reality shouldn't deter any of us from pursuing as best we can the desires we all share. We may simply may have to adjust our fantasy to how we can best merge it with reality in order to find inner balance.

Patti

[t-girlxsophie]

Well as I suspected a lot of varied opinions on this subject,Just in case anyone thought I was having a go at those who pass,I wasn't,I have met TVs who look stunning and have told them so,It can be good to have something to aim for.

Wether we "pass",blend or whatever it just goes to show that no two ppl are the same even in the TG community.But we shouldn't let it spoil the feeling of being the female we love to be when we are out and about.

I ventured out today and just held my head up and walked with purpose.not worrying about what was going on around me,turned into a great day with no incidents,as I thought and hoped most ppl are too wrapped up in their own daily lives to worry about us

[windycissy]

I'm with Kelly on this one...call me insecure, but the last thing I want is to be the center of attention when I'm dressed as a woman. Truth is, if I didn't pass, I wouldn't go out. I'm lucky I guess: not too tall, skinny, crazy self-confidence, and I really work at it because I love it so.

[kellycan27]

Actually I do like to be the center of attention.... as a girl. :heehee:

[Wen4cd]

I do not consciously treat men differently than women, and I try to watch my behavior for unconscious expressions of sexism.

So for me, to wish to 'pass' would be counterproductive. It would mean that I wished to be treated differently as a girl than I would as a boy, which would mean that I supported the treating of people differently based on gender affect, when I personally prefer to be treated as an individual, and as a human being, like I treat others.

Passing would not only be deception in my case, it would be hypocritical. It took a fair amount of work to be able see gender well enough to not see gender anymore, and while dressing was part of that work, it was never intended to deceive, or to take advantage of others' latent sexism for my emotional benefit.

[windycissy]

Actually I do like to be the center of attention.... as a girl. :heehee:

That's a whole new category: those who pass, and those who pass as hot chicks! If I'd started all this when I was a kid, maybe I'd have had a shot at that, now I'm content to be a cougar :)

[Michelia]

and here I am jumping in.

I guess I am one of the ones that is always saying "passing is in your head". But I think reality is more like someone earlier said. There are two different kinds of girls here. I do not think there are the passers and the anti-passers.

But it is more like there are the girls like Kelly and Misty who are young and pretty and have worked hard to get where they are, on the one hand. I do not think there is anyone here that does not admire you and think you are beautiful and have every right to pursue your dreams and be a true girl in the world. I think you are all so cute. I could be jealous as hell and I think many of us are. It must be a beautiful feeling to get around the way you do.

Then there are those girls like me that do not have a chance to ever really pass. Some of us, have spent a long time in the closet hoping that one day we could get out... if only we could pass. Many of us are still stuck there.

Misty and Kelly, you girls make me proud. And you should be proud of yourselves too. But when I say "forget about passing", I am not talking to the lucky Mistys and Kellys of the CD world. It would make no sense whatsoever to tell you girls this.

Yet I am also proud of myself and those that get out there and do their best knowing they do not pass. It is also hard work to look good when you know you do not pass. And when you do this it does all become about a mental thing. You pass in your head and you stop worrying about how others see you. When you can do this, then your attitude and confidence and personality win the day. And when everyone knows you are not really a girl, but they are willing to accept you as one, that is also a beautiful feeling. And if someone out there thinks I look like Tootsie, it is their problem.

So girls, it is all good. I want the true beauties out there representing us. And I also want more of those in the closet out there showing the world that whether we pass or not, we are good, semi-normal people capable of productive lives and of loving themselves and others!

And Windycissy, you are beautiful too. I did not mean to leave you out!

[Carly D.]

I agree, passing for me is a gigantic stretch.. My pictures that I post I look very fem like but from certain angles any woman can be a ten.. In my case if I face the camera I can see my male side.. Passing or looking even somewhat fem does come in handy though, if you go out in public.. If you go where there is a large crowd of TG type of people as well as alternate type of lifestyles (I'm not trying to be controversial here, don't read that into this) you might very well be able to cross dress and not pass and be accepted no problem.. I personally don't like to wear makeup , and would really rather not wear a wig (fake wig that it is), but when I did go out (late night seclusion type of stuff) I chose to wear the wig to at least try to look the part such as it was.. Or is..

[Pepper2783]

Yeah you have a point. You got me thinking.

[dilane]

That's a whole new category: those who pass, and those who pass as hot chicks! If I'd started all this when I was a kid, maybe I'd have had a shot at that, now I'm content to be a cougar :)

At the older-crowd dance clubs, you get a chance to experience some of that action well after you've said goodbye to the 30's :)

[Misty is Kindafem]

But it is more like there are the girls like Kelly and Misty who are young and pretty and have worked hard to get where they are,

As much as I love being in the company of babes like Kelly, I can't let this go without some clarification; I'm NOT young, I'm just not old yet. I've been 39 for a couple of years now and sooner or later that calendar is gonna tick up a year no matter how much I procrastinate.

I'm also not in the same league as Kelly. She is a full time lady with a fiance and SRS on the to-do list. On the other hand, I'm a part time tranny who is only out in my personal life and I'm too cowardly to come out at work.

I admit that I can be photogenic sometimes but I'll bet you a buck that if you stood me next to her I would probably look like some dude with unfortunate taste in clothes.

Now having said that, I'll return the floor to you and I believe you were talking about how pretty I am,

...please go on


-Misty

[DianeDeBris]

This continues to be an interesting topic of discussion, and I appreciate all the viewpoints that people have expressed here, as well as on similar earlier threads.

I haven't gotten far enough in my own thinking to be able fully to enunciate everything I think (or may find out I think!) about the "Passing" question. I can say, though, that as I've allowed myself to be out and about more, to visit places and shop at stores and attend events that are simply "real" (for example, not keyed to the CD world, or in the gay/drag bar scene), both my comfort level and my confidence have soared. Not surprisingly, the reactions I've received have become much better as well. I suspect this also relates to developing a better sense of how any other woman of my age and stature will usually dress, do her makeup and present herself. For example, I'm finding that I can walk down a street in broad daylight, wearing slacks and a cami/shirt combo with little makeup, and nobody bats an eye; if I wear a miniskirt and five inch heels *everybody* will stare, and it turns out the staring is not at "the CD" but at the out-of-place presentation! I'm also finding that I can go about my business, have a drink at a bar, use the lady's room, eat a meal, shop in a store, and not get a second glance from anybody at all, so long as I'm presenting myself in the manner (not just appearance but also actions) that any other woman would be using.

And -- best of all -- I find all this beautifully liberating. I no longer feel like I'm "working to pass," I'm simply being myself, and it feels GREAT!!

Now I need to think and reflect more, but thanks to one and all for affording me the opportunity to verbalize these ideas, as far as they have gotten so far.

[Sharon michelle]

I wish I was a babe. Pretty soon if I were to pass, they'd respect me...like their granny!

[Michelia]

I forgot to mention that although I try to always look good, I am a very busy girl with a family, a job, a business, and have a few apartment rentals, and now a boyfriend.

If I always went all out in my get up, I would rarely get out the door dressed. Often I will slap on some fast make-up, let my hair down, and I am out the door with no bra or fakeys. It is nice to be able to do this. I would hate to just be able to just get out on Saturday nights dressed.

All this is not by preference, it is just the way my life is.I always enjoy it more when I am dressed all the way. But that takes at least three hours for me. I just do not have the time for this. Many times I spend a forty-five minutes getting ready. And when you get out this way, it does make you tougher and bolder. You find out you can still have fun. It also makes you realize how passing is just not that important. This may not work for everyone, but I found it works for me.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Listen up, I'm working to pass, period. Its my goal and I will achieve it. If that's offensive to you than you may as well learn to deal with it because I'm not going anywhere.

The "anti-passers" are tiresome. If passing is such a lost cause then why even bother to shave? Why put on makeup? Why wear a wig?

Just because some girls don't give a whit about passing does NOT mean it's a pointless endeavor to those of us who want it. It's funny that it's not enough for people to be passionate about something, they have to despise something else on the flip-side.



I shave because I like it, and I wear makeup sometimes because I like it, but don't always do it, and I even more rarely wear a wig because I like the look of longer hair with stuff but it's hard for me to keep my own hair long and manageable. There's a difference between being "anti-passing" and being "Anti-looking good."

I just wanted to respond to you here though because I don't know if you realize that many of us who don't pass often get the same insistence that we should that you feel us anti-passers give to you. I can't tell you how many times it's been suggested I don't dress to pass because I just haven't worked hard enough to do it properly.

Plus newer crossdressers, or I should say people new to exploring their cding, get so much pressure to pass because it is talked about and held up as a gold standard so often, and if they don't pass, then that's just dumping more insecurity upon someone already dealing with enough as it is. That is why I post as many anti-passing things as I do, but I'm never posting it with the intention of saying "Stop trying to pass!" my intention is always to let people know "You don't HAVE to pass if you don't want to."

I post advocating non passing crossdressing, but I don't think passing is pointless, I just think that the only importance passing should have is the importance an individual puts on it for themselves, and that's it.

I do personally think that the more crossdressing men who openly dress without the insistence on passing the quicker it will take for public acceptance of us, but my way of advocating that is to just go out there and do it myself and hope others might follow from my example, rather than tell people who do pass that they're doing it wrong.

[Misty is Kindafem]

I just wanted to respond to you here though because I don't know if you realize that many of us who don't pass often get the same insistence that we should that you feel us anti-passers give to you.

I'm glad you responded. Just because our presentations are in opposition doesn't mean our ideology has to be.

To put it bluntly, I don't have the stones to do what you do.

With wig and makeup I'm almost unrecognizable as my male self and that's exactly how I like it. You may cherish certain aspects of your maleness but I certainly don't.

I honestly can't understand why you would enjoy what you do, but I would never suggest that you were silly or misguided. I leave those judgments to the straight world.

To me, anyone who stands up and says "My penis will not define me" is okay and gets my support.

Passing the way I see it is indeed the holy grail and I may spend the rest of my life searching for it, but what's so wrong with that?

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, I'm just asking that you let us be.

-Misty

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If u can't ever pass, you can either stay home, not outwardly dress(wear womens underwear), or have the guts to go out there and do what Steve does..

there is a permanent conflict that will always be there between loud and proud non passers and folks that are desperately trying to blend in either because of their fear of being "caught, laughed at or worse" or their gender identity being female...and i don't see a problem with that..

its interesting that everytime its brought up there is a huge discussion about it...i get drawn into it every time..my perspective has shifted over time...as a 6'2 crossdresser i never passed, and i learned to not care...i openly discussed my transness with people, winked at people that gawked at me, etc etc......but over time and with the help of full time practice and ffs, i pass much better and i feel differently..

so when somebody starts a thread by saying "i don't think passing is important" or "i think passing is the holy grail"...the folks thinking differently tend to feel like they have to respond and the circle begins..very rarely do i see personal attacks and i think that when that does happen it reflects more on the "attacker" and not on the general feeling of transpeople

i have found in my real life test that other people care deeply about my appearance...i worked incredibly hard to look my best as a woman...and people respond by being much more comfortable with me ...that makes me happy and affirms my identity...but it in no way disrespects or hurts folks that choose to live their transness differently or folks that do not have circumstances or means to improve their ability to pass...

my opinion is that if a tg person could magically pass , the vast majority of us would...but thats no reason to argue with the folks that would not..and vice versa

[jenna_woods]

I think at timew we all want to pass, but at this stage in my life I don't care if I am "read", I am just being my self and enjoying it.

[t-girlxsophie]

My starting this thread wasn't to have anyone at each others throats,It was merely to find out what our community thinks,I have friends who Pass and those.like me that don't.I wouldv'e been overjoyed if I did but oh! well I still love me.

We are together in this,we should see that all of us have different personalitys and traits,but one way is not "better" than the other.As long as we are all happy in ourselves,that's all that matters

[Fab Karen]

Those of us that have been out in the world keep saying this. ( that doesn't mean we don't try to look femme )

And next time you're out somewhere in boy-mode, stop and ask yourself, am I passing as a real man?:)

[Karen564]

Speaking of passing, I was doing great since starting college last november...I was all woodworked in & none the wiser, except for a few that I disclosed my status to...
Well, last evening while in class, my cover was blown & fully outed by my teacher in front of the whole class, by using me as an example for a comparison for part of her lecture and Said I was a Man!...gasp! shock!, anger flowed through my veins, blood pressure sky rocketed....

Why she did that, I have no idea what so ever....although I knew she had her own bias opinions about me which may have went against her grain in some ways, ..but I never thought she would go this far to totally embarrass me in front of the class..

As much as that very insensitive act did to me, and made me want to hide under my desk, I was a big girl & tried to stay as calm as I could & sat through the lecture to the end, class ended and then walked out with my head held high.....and nobody said a word to me..other than 2 girls that said, Bye, see Ya on Tuesday ...

So it looks like I'm now totally out at school, but that won't stop or hinder me and I am still determined as ever to excel & maintain my current 4.0 GPA.. (but I will be very upset for a while, but I'll have to get over it, or it will consume me)

So to pass or not to pass, does it really matter now?
Guess that wont do me any good now..so............

All I can do now is continue on with my life and live the best way I know how as I've been doing since last year as a female that was born with a birth gender defect...

In the end, it's how you feel while being in public, and if you learn to just be your true self, whether dressed or not, nobody should place any judgment or deter someone who's just trying to be themselves....

Since I went 24/7, I never really thought about it as passing after that , because that sounds like some kind of stage performance act, which was not what I intended, so I more looked at it as blending into the woodwork because this is how I will live until I die..even though I was the most talkative girl in the class asking the most difficult questions ....so it doesn't mean I go about life without a pulse.....lol

And no worries, this incident will be addressed to the schools administration...
Some should just know better than to mess with a hormonal transsexual woman..especially this one!

So like I said, To pass or not to pass, is it all really all that important when people know about your past gender?

My own answer to that is no, I think Acceptance wins hands down in the end....but I'll still do my best to blend in (ie: Pass)

:drink::drink::drink:

[Windy]

If u can't ever pass, you can either stay home, not outwardly dress(wear womens underwear), or have the guts to go out there and do what Steve does..

there is a permanent conflict that will always be there between loud and proud non passers and folks that are desperately trying to blend in either because of their fear of being "caught, laughed at or worse" or their gender identity being female...and i don't see a problem with that..

its interesting that everytime its brought up there is a huge discussion about it...i get drawn into it every time..my perspective has shifted over time...as a 6'2 crossdresser i never passed, and i learned to not care...i openly discussed my transness with people, winked at people that gawked at me, etc etc......but over time and with the help of full time practice and ffs, i pass much better and i feel differently..

so when somebody starts a thread by saying "i don't think passing is important" or "i think passing is the holy grail"...the folks thinking differently tend to feel like they have to respond and the circle begins..very rarely do i see personal attacks and i think that when that does happen it reflects more on the "attacker" and not on the general feeling of transpeople

i have found in my real life test that other people care deeply about my appearance...i worked incredibly hard to look my best as a woman...and people respond by being much more comfortable with me ...that makes me happy and affirms my identity...but it in no way disrespects or hurts folks that choose to live their transness differently or folks that do not have circumstances or means to improve their ability to pass...

my opinion is that if a tg person could magically pass , the vast majority of us would...but thats no reason to argue with the folks that would not..and vice versa

Kaitlyn you are a true inspiration. If only I had your courage to wear feminine clothes, even once or twice, or heaven help me, go out about town for some quick shopping! I know I'll never pass (even though my hands and face are quite soft I'm over 6' 4'' and my feet/hands are huge!), but if I was half as comfortable in women's clothes I'd love to go out and laugh at the starers as you do.

Karen, I really feel for you. Forgive me for asking, but did you tell anyone close? Has anything improved now?

People need to learn acceptance, regardless of who you are or choose to be.

[Karen564]

Karen, I really feel for you. Forgive me for asking, but did you tell anyone close? Has anything improved now?


TY..:hugs:
As far as what just happened last night?
Yes, I chatted with a very dear friend of mine earlier today about it......
Improved? Like how I feel now?....I think that's too early to say at this point....but I should be OK....I've been through far much worse times than this, so I wont let this get the best of me...

[Lainie]

Today I wore a linen shirt dress, tights, and high-heeled boots & big fashionista purse; no make-up or wig; and the usual mustache. Had a long chat with an art gallery owner who was very curious about CDing--completely tolerant, completely uncomprehending. Visited a TG friend who curled & teased my hair into a very femme style, which was fun but only made the guy face more inappropriate. So I pulled the hair back to unisex fluffy/messy and went out to dinner. Lady ahead of me in the queue said very nice things about my boots, didn't mention the dress. A cop who was having dinner in the same restaurant looked a little bug-eyed as I squeezed past him on my way out, but didn't choke on his mouthful of food.

I really admire those who can pass, for their talent and hard work. I can't, so I do what I can.

[msginaadoll]

If I pass by people and they dont stare or gawk or run into things is that passing? People are so busy nowdays going about there own business that they dont seem to be aware of whats going on around them. Maybe thats a good thing for us CD's and those who are concerned they don't pass.

[dorylinn]

My own answer to that is no, I think Acceptance wins hands down in the end....but I'll still do my best to blend in....

:drink::drink::drink:

I admire all you girls who venture out of the closet. :daydreaming:


You are my pioneer heroins :clap:

I have just "outed" myself to my wife recently and until just now, going out into the general public has only been a dream. :c9:

[gigiluv]

I love Eluuzion's answer. Is that not applicable to all of us? Is that not the way we should all look at it. I want to pass, but the world will not end if I don't. If I dwell on it the only loser is me for worrying instead of living.

Thanks Eluuzion. Great advice for all of us.

[Rebecca Petersen]

Boy, I've been hanging around the "TG Community" for 20 years now, and that darn "Pass" word always comes up. I will tell you one thing that I have found out though after talking with many, many TG folk. There are those that pass, or at least think they pass, and those that want to pass.
As pointed out earlier in this thread, "Accepted" is what we should all be shooting for.
Strictly my opinion.

[Jodi M]

I try to look my feminine best and just enjoy my time out as a girl whenever I go out and nobody has ever looked at me and said "Hey,your a guy in a dress" and I like it that way. I am sure I have been read at times but nothing has been said and I just go on about my bussiness. I would probably be upset though If I was actually confronted or ridiculed.

[Loni]

passing??????? what is passing.
i would be very happy if i could just blend in with "real" life and be treated as a lady when i have a dress on.

now if i could be 8 in shorter and a good 10 dress sizes smaller in the shoulders.and maybe still have hair.and, etc, etc. :daydreaming:

but i must work with i have.

Loni

.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

With wig and makeup I'm almost unrecognizable as my male self and that's exactly how I like it. You may cherish certain aspects of your maleness but I certainly don't.

I guess for me, while I do cherish aspects of my maleness, it's more that I feel that, for me, when I truly accepted myself as being transgendered, I just didn't like the feeling that in order to express that part of myself I had to pretend to be someone else. That's what bugs me about passing. I view what I do as dressing *like* a woman as opposed to dressing *as* a woman. I cherish my transgendered identity.


Passing the way I see it is indeed the holy grail and I may spend the rest of my life searching for it, but what's so wrong with that?

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, I'm just asking that you let us be.

Well, here's the point where I'd like to ask you to consider a different perspective on this issue. You notice the anti-passing threads because they are the anomaly, they stick out because they offer the opposing viewpoint to your own preference. In reality though, the pro-passing folks on here far outnumber those of us who don't like it. As such there are far more pro-passing threads than there are anti-passing threads. Furthermore, there are many threads that are about passing, or how to pass, or do I pass, or I think I passed.. et al, that don't have anything to do with the "pro/anti-passing" debate.

It is taken for granted on this and most crossdressing websites and boards that everyone is trying to pass. You are not in the minority on this issue by a very large margin, so you probably have no idea how much those of us who don't want to pass feel like we have the pressure to do so pushed in our faces on a regular basis. Speaking from personal experience, that can be really harmful to the self esteem of a CD for whom it is harder or impossible to pass, who is already striving to accept this part of themselves.

As I've said before. My point in posting against passing when I do, is not to tell you that you shouldn't view passing as your holy grail, but it should be just that, *your* holy grail, and not something every crossdresser should strive to achieve, which is the way it usually is presented.

[Michelia]

I guess for me, while I do cherish aspects of my maleness, it's more that I feel that, for me, when I truly accepted myself as being transgendered, I just didn't like the feeling that in order to express that part of myself I had to pretend to be someone else. That's what bugs me about passing. I view what I do as dressing *like* a woman as opposed to dressing *as* a woman. I cherish my transgendered identity.




It is taken for granted on this and most crossdressing websites and boards that everyone is trying to pass. You are not in the minority on this issue by a very large margin, so you probably have no idea how much those of us who don't want to pass feel like we have the pressure to do so pushed in our faces on a regular basis. Speaking from personal experience, that can be really harmful to the self esteem of a CD for whom it is harder or impossible to pass, who is already striving to accept this part of themselves.

As I've said before. My point in posting against passing when I do, is not to tell you that you shouldn't view passing as your holy grail, but it should be just that, *your* holy grail, and not something every crossdresser should strive to achieve, which is the way it usually is presented.


Not to mention that lots of books and businesses try to make a living trying to tell you "how to pass" and "how everyone can pass" and all such nonsense. I could spend thousands of dollars and still not fool anyone.

If you want to pass and you are after going around unnoticed and fully accepted as a girl, power to you. I am behind you all the way. But please do not forget it is those that go around not passing that are making others conscious that we are out there and thus working everyday towards acceptance of tg folk.

Karen, I am so sorry about what happened to you. Unconscionable that in a school in a highly educated state something so backward and mean could happen.

[Wen4cd]

I guess for me, while I do cherish aspects of my maleness, it's more that I feel that, for me, when I truly accepted myself as being transgendered, I just didn't like the feeling that in order to express that part of myself I had to pretend to be someone else.

I like how you put this. While 'cherishing aspects of my maleness' is not how I see it, it still communicates a feeling I share. I cherish aspects of my wholeness, and would no more attempt to repress traits of myself that might be considered 'boyish' than I would those that were 'girly.'

For me, dressing serves/ed to help integrate natural, normal traits that I had unconsciously repressed for being femme, for the goal of being as complete and whole as I can be. To completely flip-flop, and then to try to repress any traits that are boyish, would be about the same thing in reverse.

The tricky part is that in all this subconscious sorting, there will be 'shadow' traits, that one will actually want to repress, being neither male nor female in truth. On a certain path of integration, these traits can be transferred to the image of the 'boyself,' thus making the 'boyself' appear uglier and less desirable to the egoconsciousness.

I've gone through this myself. At times in integration, my male persona, (in my mental landscape,) became the 'dumping ground' for anything I did not wish to hold on to, and "he" got more and more shadowy.

Learning to love and cherish 'him' was a lot more difficult for me than learning to see and accept me was for him. He was called by beauty, wonder, and other magical things that come from anima projection. He was irresistably drawn to accept and be one with 'me.' But when the transferrence began taking place, I really had to struggle not to throw 'him' in the garbage can, because on to him was being transferred the parts of the 'total package' that were not so pretty and wondrous.

The way I see it 'he' struggled and suffered his whole life to find me, shield me from harm, and ultimately to bring me into existence to live in the world. He would willingly sacrifice himself to give me life.

I would not live up to what faith he put into me if I just kicked him to the curb for his trouble. I would be evil, knowing what it is to live in repression, if I were to stuff him into that same hole, even if he thinks he wants it. He deserves to live, and actually, he needs to live and exist if I am to, because it is all 'me' in totality, once you start to see past the dualism.

So, 'phase two' of integration was my duty to see past the shadow that was over him, and re-transfer those dark traits into their 'proper' place, which is neither male nor female, but just a shadow aspect of total humanity.

[Misty is Kindafem]

As I've said before. My point in posting against passing when I do, is not to tell you that you shouldn't view passing as your holy grail, but it should be just that, *your* holy grail, and not something every crossdresser should strive to achieve, which is the way it usually is presented.

...and when both ends have come together, behold a circle.

I couldn't agree more.

I must say that I'm pleasantly surprised with the tone and substance of this whole discussion.

Now that we've arrived on common ground, I have nothing left to say. :drink:

-Misty

[kellycan27]

For those of you who wish to pass... don't give up hope. It's a lot easier to pass out there in the real world than it is to pass here.:heehee: