Dumb question on legal name change

[Ze]

Yeah, this is probably a dumb question, but I can't find any actual documentation of an answer online. :o

I plan to change my name soon enough (within a year). However, my gender identification (unfortunately) won't be changing with it because I haven't undergone any of the physical alterations that would "allow" that change in gender identification.

My question: Can I (or am I legally "allowed" to) change my name to a distinctly male one without changing my gender to male along with it?

I question this because it would seem more people would do this to aid their passability before physical transition, yet I don't really hear stories of such. I wouldn't be surprised if the American courts have some sort of rule disallowing this.

Edit: (May as well ask this here, too.) Also, in the States, what is the distinct change in physical anatomy or behavior for transmen that allows courts to see a biologically born "female" as male? Hence, allows them to change their gender identification? Is it X time on hormones? Top surgery? What?

[SirTrey]

I did.....My legal name change was over three years ago, but I have only been on T for two years....and My paperwork only got changed to "M" post-surgery....So, yes, you can change your name to anything you want to so long as you are not doing it for bad reasons like avoiding debt, etc. Hope that helps. :thumbsup::drink:

In answer to your edit, it's "irreversible sex reassignment surgery"....You need a letter from a surgeon stating it just that way....That can be top surgery or bottom surgery, so long as it is worded EXACTLY that way....but most surgeons who do this kind of surgery know that.

[Kieron Andrew]

My question: Can I (or am I legally "allowed" to) change my name to a distinctly male one without changing my gender to male along with it?I guess it depends on the state, but i would have thought so, most change their name THEN their gender mark later, and yes i am referring to USA ;)


Edit: (May as well ask this here, too.) Also, in the States, what is the distinct change in physical anatomy or behavior for transmen that allows courts to see a biologically born female as male? Hence, allows them to change their gender identification? Is it X time on hormones? Top surgery? What? Top surgery seems to be the common thing in MOST states...but i'm guessing its (again) a state by state law?

[Veronica Nowakowski]

you can change your name so long as a judge approves, and many, many people get the gender name change without the rest. Generally, the rule is your name is whatever you want it to be. If you wanted to change your name to George Walker Bush or Barrack Hussein Obama, you'd probably get problems. But if you're just changing to a generic male name you should have no issue. I'm sure the probate court will assure you of that.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

short answer is yes...its depends on which state you live in how difficult it will be.

[Ze]

Thanks, guys! That clears things up! :thumbsup:

Edit: And thanks, ladies! You sneaked in there while I was replying. ;)


In answer to your edit, it's "irreversible sex reassignment surgery"....You need a letter from a surgeon stating it just that way....That can be top surgery or bottom surgery, so long as it is worded EXACTLY that way....but most surgeons who do this kind of surgery know that.

Ah, and therein lies the rub. As far as I know, most people can't be approved for such surgeries until they've been on hormones a while, right? And you can't get the hormones unless you've been living full-time for X amount of time...

Personally, I think it's absolutely asinine that people have to go through that much, spend so much money, and wait that long before they're "allowed" to legally change what they knew all along was true. (I know you all probably agree with me on this. :heehee:) It's where Western medicine and the courts gouge us. As if having the "problem" to begin with wasn't enough. :thumbsdn:

Hmm...I feel a new paper coming on. :thinking:


Top surgery seems to be the common thing in MOST states...but i'm guessing its (again) a state by state law?

So does that mean I'd be male or "female" in one state as opposed to another? (I'm thinking along the lines of gay marriage in the States, where they are legally married in one place, yet another place has the right to not recognize that marriage at all. Same thing?)

I like that I'm asking an Englishman about US legality. :heehee:

[Kieron Andrew]

I like that I'm asking an Englishman about US legality. :heehee:

:heehee: Ze post your state it may help us find some info in black and white for you

[SirTrey]

No, it doesn't mean you are different sexes in different states.....For example, My driver's license now says "M".....I am a male driver in all states.....I changed My designation with the SS Administration (which is federal), ergo, I am a male worker, no matter which state I am working in....As to the surgeries, many surgeons do not require you to be on T prior to surgery....what you actually need is a therapist letter stating that you have been diagnosed with GID (gender identity disorder) and medical clearance from your doctor....I know for a fact that Garramone doesn't require you to be on T pre-top surgery....He mentioned that when he and I were talking when I did My telephone pre-op consultation...He also doesn't require guys to be at a particular weight (which some doctors do).

[Ze]

:heehee: Ze post your state it may help us find some info in black and white for you

:ner:

Currently a resident in Pennsylvania, but will soon (in a few months) be going to school in Massachusetts, in which I might become a permanent resident there.

I could hold off/accelerate my residency depending on which state would give me an easier time both for a name change and a change in gender identification.

Edit: But Trey, don't most psychiatrists demand T before they'll give the letter? That's what I'm ultimately wondering about. And eek on the weight thing; I didn't know that could be a problem! :eek: That ain't fair! I can't help that I'm small and underweight; I was born genetically female! Cruel, cruel irony...

[Kieron Andrew]

http://www.tsroadmap.com/reality/name-change.html
Massachusetts (http://www.tsroadmap.com/reality/name/massachusetts.html)
Pennsylvania (http://www.tsroadmap.com/reality/name/pennsylvania.html)
http://www.tsroadmap.com/reality/social-security.html
http://www.tsroadmap.com/reality/birth-certificate.html
http://www.tsroadmap.com/reality/passport.html
http://www.tsroadmap.com/reality/drivers-license.html

[Ze]

Thanks for all the links, Unkie! This'll really help me get things in order.

[Sharon]

I lived in your state when I did exactly that, Ze. You can change your name to anything you want as long as you aren't doing so in order to elude legal or financial obligations.

[Ze]

And if I am? :whistling:

Nah, just kidding. :) Thanks, Sharon!

[JoAnne Wheeler]

It appears that in Kentucky, you have have to have a letter from your surgeon stating that you have undergone SRS/GRS. I do not like that, but I may be stuck with it. This seems to be more cut and dried for M2F, but what about a F2M who has had the hysterectomy. Does this count ? Surely, a transman would not have to have penis addition surgery to get an M on his drivers' license - would he? Someone asked that question two days ago and I do not know if there is an answer - does anyone know ?

JoAnne Wheeler

[Stephenie S]

FOR THE LAST TIME, I AIN'T FEMALE!

Well gee, hon, I think we got the message. That don't mean ya ain't hot though!

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Stephenie S]

It appears that in Kentucky, you have have to have a letter from your surgeon stating that you have undergone SRS/GRS. I do not like that, but I may be stuck with it. This seems to be more cut and dried for M2F, but what about a F2M who has had the hysterectomy. Does this count ? Surely, a transman would not have to have penis addition surgery to get an M on his drivers' license - would he? Someone asked that question two days ago and I do not know if there is an answer - does anyone know ?

Yes, I know. Irreversible surgery. Top surgery qualifies. Bottom surgery is never required, but may be necessary for the individual's self satisfaction.

As far as I know, irreversible surgery is required for both MtF and FtM. Ochiectomy qualifies, breast removal qualifies, and GRS qualifies. You just need the letter from a surgeon. He/she does not have to specify exactly WHAT the surgery was, only that it was irreversible.

Stephie

[Ze]

It appears that in Kentucky, you have have to have a letter from your surgeon stating that you have undergone SRS/GRS. I do not like that, but I may be stuck with it. This seems to be more cut and dried for M2F, but what about a F2M who has had the hysterectomy. Does this count ? Surely, a transman would not have to have penis addition surgery to get an M on his drivers' license - would he? Someone asked that question two days ago and I do not know if there is an answer - does anyone know ?

JoAnne Wheeler

Good question about the hysterectomy; I'm not sure on that one. I don't think it counts.

Thankfully, we don't have to get bottom surgery before we can legally change our gender (the options we have are pretty faulty), but we do at least have to get chest surgery.


FOR THE LAST TIME, I AIN'T FEMALE!

Well gee, hon, I think we got the message. That don't mean ya ain't hot though!

Lovies,
Stephenie

Obnoxious enough for you? :heehee: And aww, you're sweet. :love: Do I tell you that enough?

[EnglishRose]

I think you said you were coming to Massachusetts to study. Come, come! You can get your license gender marker changed without hormones, surgery etc. You just need a therapist's letter, I believe.

[Ze]

I think you said you were coming to Massachusetts to study. Come, come! You can get your license gender marker changed without hormones, surgery etc. You just need a therapist's letter, I believe.

:eek: Wow, I sure hope this is true! Have you managed to do this yourself?

[Lorileah]

You just need the letter from a surgeon. He/she does not have to specify exactly WHAT the surgery was, only that it was irreversible.

Stephie

seems like that would be open to say an appendectomy also, I love lawyer talk :) loopholes can be wonderful

[EnglishRose]

:eek: Wow, I sure hope this is true! Have you managed to do this yourself?

http://www.masstpc.org/projects/rmv-changes.shtml

Annoyingly, I can't find an official link to this form from for example the MA RMV site, but there are multiple news outlets (and the hate group massresistance) reporting on it. The masstpc site asks for experiences of those who use the form. Haven't gone through this; immigration was trouble enough for the moment :)

[Ze]

seems like that would be open to say an appendectomy also, I love lawyer talk :) loopholes can be wonderful

Maybe it's time I got my tonsils out...:thinking:


http://www.masstpc.org/projects/rmv-changes.shtml

Annoyingly, I can't find an official link to this form from for example the MA RMV site, but there are multiple news outlets (and the hate group massresistance) reporting on it. The masstpc site asks for experiences of those who use the form. Haven't gone through this; immigration was trouble enough for the moment :)

Awesome! Thank you, Christina! :love:

[Veronica_Jean]

Ze,

Recently in Ohio it is possible to get the gender marker changed without SRS or a letter from the surgeon. That does not mean the SS board will change their designation.

So, depending on what you are looking for, it is potentially possible to have both a name change and F to M on your driver's license without surgery. You still require a letter from your therapist saying you are committed to living as the opposite gender.

A couple of women from my local support group here in Dayton have gotten their driver's license changed.

Veronica

[Sally24]

Drivers Manual (Massachusetts) pg 40
http://www.mass.gov/rmv/dmanual/chapter1.pdf
If your gender identity no longer matches the gender designation printed on your
Massachusetts Driver’s License or ID Card, you may be able to amend your license or ID.
To do so, both you and a medical or social service provider who is treating and counseling you must complete and sign a Massachusetts Gender Designation Change Form. You must


also complete and sign a new license application. The fee for the new license or ID Card is

$25 and a new photo-image is required. You must turn in your license or ID containing the
other gender designation.
You do not need to provide proof of sex reassignment surgery, an amended birth certificate, or proof of a court-approved name change.

[Ze]

Thank you so much for this new information, ladies! :bh: My main concern is my gender on my license, not necessarily birth certificate and such, so that works.

Question: Does the therapist who fills out the form have to be practicing in MA? Because I could start taking care of that now! I'll look into this.

I planned to update my license (photo) before moving to MA, but I think now I'll wait until I get there! I have to check and see if getting an MA-specific license takes more than becoming an MA resident. It shouldn't be too hard to become a resident since I'll be, well, living there. :)

I'm very happy right now!

[Karen564]

Question: Does the therapist who fills out the form have to be practicing in MA? Because I could start taking care of that now! I'll look into this.

I planned to update my license (photo) before moving to MA, but I think now I'll wait until I get there! I have to check and see if getting an MA-specific license takes more than becoming an MA resident. It shouldn't be too hard to become a resident since I'll be, well, living there. :)

I'm very happy right now!

To answer your 1st question,....... No, the therapist does Not have to practice in Mass, the only requirement is that your therapist is licensed..from whatever state...

And yes, you will need to prove residency in Mass in order to obtain a MA license...

[SirTrey]

Ze, in answer to your other question, you don't need to be on T to get a therapist letter...You need a therapist letter to get T (the diagnosis of GID is what you need to GET on T). (Edit: There are a few doctors who will give you T without a therapist letter, but most want a letter from a therapist stating that you do have GID in order for them to prescribe it for you since GID is still considered a psychiatric diagnosis, not a physical one.)

[Stephenie S]

OMG, isn't there a whole lot of info flying about here.

Remember we are talking about TWO different situations all of a sudden. Ze wants his name changed. Fair enough. He can change it. County Probate Court. Provide proof of residence in the county. Utility bills, mag subscriptions, phone listing, etc. Pay the money (in VT it was $55), and a month later you get yer name change. Ze was worried about trying to change his name to a gender specific name like "Bill" or "Dave" or "Bonecrusher". Unless you are doing this to defraud or get away from creditors or the law, your name can be anything you want. No one will care what you call yourself, Ze.

Now the second issue is the DL. That's a bit trickier. It's my experience that this is a situation where you are at the mercy of individual interpretation. Without question, if you go in to the DMV with a court order stating an official name change, the DMV will issue you a new DL with the new name. No problem. But if you want to change the GENDER also, this may be problematic. I think different states may have different policies. Some may be very rigid and require an amended BC. And some (like Vermont) may be a bit more relaxed about it. I changed the gender marker on my DL using my "carry letter" from my therapist stating that in order to comply with the HBSOC, I was REQUIRED to present female 100% of the time. The DMV had no trouble with that. But they DID require a court order to change my name. I complied, but for a short period of time, my old name was driving around with an F on her license.

I understand, from posts here, and from info from my sister who lives in MA, that that state has similar relaxed standards about names and gender markers. Ze, move to MA, establish your residency, change your name, get your new DL, and then we'll work on the next step.

Start with your therapist in your home state. Get that "carry letter". They are kinda silly and good for little but confidence building (you'll never get outta jail with one), but sometimes they come in handy. And you'll LOVE having one.

Here's Mine:

Credentials yada, yada. yada. Date_____

To whom it may concern:

I have been treating the bearer, ZE, since __________ for Gender Identity Disorder (or whatever). In order to comply with the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care, he is REQUIRED to present as male 100% of the time. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me at _______________. Thank you.

Signature, more credentials Yada. yada.

Short and sweet and to the point.

If it would be useful to you or your therapist, I could fax you a copy at some point in the future.

Now, for all you lawyer types out there, irreversible surgery refers to irreversible sex surgery. Tonsillectomy doesn't qualify, silly. Appendectomy doesn't qualify. Top surgery for a FtM qualifies. Orchiectomy for a MtF qualifies. Bottom surgery for a MtF qualifies. Bottom surgery for a MtF is not required. The requirement is a surgeons' letter stating irreversible SEX surgery. He/she does not have to specify exactly what that surgery was.

Stephenie

[Stephenie S]

Ze, in answer to your other question, you don't need to be on T to get a therapist letter...You need a therapist letter to get T (the diagnosis of GID is what you need to GET on T). (Edit: There are a few doctors who will give you T without a therapist letter, but most want a letter from a therapist stating that you do have GID in order for them to prescribe it for you since GID is still considered a psychiatric diagnosis, not a physical one.)

Yes, yes, and yes.

Stephie

[pamela_a]

Ze, one thing you may also want to check into is changing your gender and your name at the same time. I'm not familiar with MA law but in MN the judge who signed my legal name change also ordered my gender marker changed to female. For MN there is a line in the petition for "other" :

Other: Change name and gender to female on birth record, driver license, social security, and any or all other legal forms of identification


The judge approved this also and I've had no trouble changing my social security, birth certificate and driver license name and gender. Mind you, this required providing supporting documentation from my MD and therapist stating I had "permanent physical changes" but no specifics were given in the documents as to what the changes were.

[Stephenie S]

See, it's different everywhere you go. Name change is pretty standard though.

[Karen564]

Now the second issue is the DL. That's a bit trickier. It's my experience that this is a situation where you are at the mercy of individual interpretation. Without question, if you go in to the DMV with a court order stating an official name change, the DMV will issue you a new DL with the new name. No problem. But if you want to change the GENDER also, this may be problematic. I think different states may have different policies. Some may be very rigid and require an amended BC. And some (like Vermont) may be a bit more relaxed about it. I changed the gender marker on my DL using my "carry letter" from my therapist stating that in order to comply with the HBSOC, I was REQUIRED to present female 100% of the time. The DMV had no trouble with that. But they DID require a court order to change my name. I complied, but for a short period of time, my old name was driving around with an F on her license.



Steph,

In Mass, A carry letter will not do Ze any good at the RMV...in regards to changing the gender marker or anything there....

But it is very easy to do once he & his therapist fill out the Mass RMV Gender marker change form..which he has a link to get it from a previous post...

[Stephenie S]

I think I said that the DMV will change your name in response to a court order. I can't imagine how they could not. A "carry letter" is not worth much more than the paper it's printed on, except as a confidence booster for the bearer.

I only said that my DMV was willing to change my gender based on that. It was similar in effect if not in legality to your official MA gender change document.

It's all a moot point now anyway as everything has been changed. (or as Joey said on FRIENDS, "It's a moo point.")

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Aubrey Green]

Ze buddy, you can legally change your name anytime to anything you want.

How else could a person name their children Moonunit and Dweezil.

You will have to appear in court, but it is only a formailty.

Should we call you Homer, Bart, Barrack, what will it be little buddy. Hey, little buddy, how about Gilligan?

[Ze]

I think "Bonecrusher" sounds good. :D

Thanks again for all of this information! Pamela, that's another route I'll look into. Thank you!

I'm planning an itinerary for when I move to MA; I'll be bringing up that one form with my therapist on Tuesday. I'm happy to hear any licensed psychiatrist can do this; I'm 99% positive she'll fill the form for me without making me go through T or surgery. :) Yay!

[Ze]

My therapist is qualified to fill out the form and she's gonna do it! :GD: :GD: :GD:

Which leads me to my next question: Do these procedures have time constraints to them? I'm asking because I'd need her to sign the form within the next month or so (because I'm leaving), but might not get the entire ball rolling until later in the year (because I also want to change my name while I'm at it, but first need to come out to my family and go through the court system and become an MA resident and blah blah blah).