PDA

View Full Version : Gender identity before sexual orientation?



Ze
04-18-2010, 12:21 PM
(I've had too much time to think lately.)

So yeah, basically I questioned whether or not I was a dude way before I questioned whether or not I was attracted to women. When I finally realized I solely liked the ladies, one of my first thoughts was, "Maybe I'm just a butch lesbian and got confused." But then immediately I tossed this thought because it seemed (and still seems) utterly ridiculous. If it really was nothing but orientation woes, there's no reason I would've have taken the larger (and arguably riskier) jump to gender rather than desire first.

For those of you that had both your gender identity and sexual orientation called into question for yourselves, just curious in what order you did it. I don't know if my situation is unique or the norm.

I'd be interested in the answers of both FtM and MtF transfolk, if the latter feels so inclined. :)

SirTrey
04-18-2010, 01:27 PM
Gender first, sexual identity second....I have always felt male and I have always been attracted to women....but....I always knew I wasn't a lesbian, so My sexual orientation was not an issue for Me....I just always felt like a man with a woman. But the medical evidence tells us why....When the brain knows what sex/gender you actually ARE, you then move on to step number two....which is figuring out who you are attracted TO....then you know if you are gay or straight. (edit....or bi) :2c::drink:

ReineD
04-18-2010, 01:40 PM
Ze, is this thread for anyone to answer? :)

Gender first before sexual orientation, yes, but what about just basic attraction? I knew when I was about 6 years old that I liked boys in a different way than I liked girls and to me, it was all tied into my realization that I was a girl, I was different from them.

Before age 6 or so, I saw no difference between the genders. I used to fist fight all the boys cos I was protecting my little brother. I remember my parents punishing me because they said that my brother would have to learn to defend himself. I stopped fighting the boys once I realized that I liked them.

Ze
04-18-2010, 01:43 PM
Ze, is this thread for anyone to answer? :)

Sure! :hugs: Thanks for contributing!

In regards to that interesting question on basic attraction (which I didn't think about), without going into details I personally was somewhat "numbed" regarding attraction throughout childhood. Didn't grasp the concept of it; just went through the motions until I finally sat down around 20 years old and actually thought about it. :)

4serrus
04-18-2010, 03:41 PM
I am not sure. Orientation, I think?

This is going to be confusing and hard to follow. I apologize. It confuses me, too.

In the community I grew up in, boys and girls did not play together. It just was Not Done. The only boy my age I was ever exposed to or had any real contact with before puberty was my cousin, who I saw during occasional summer weekends and at major holidays. I didn't have a real internal concept of gender. I knew I was a 'girl' because everyone told me I was a 'girl' and therefore segregated into the 'girl' half of society. I had little exposure to the boy half of society, and had no idea of how it operated other than it seemed to be loud. I did know that I was different from everyone around me somehow--keeping in mind that practically everyone around me was female. The thought that I might not actually be a girl never occurred to me. I just thought I was defective.

On the other hand, I definitely knew that I liked boys. Not so much boys in general, but specific boys; "I like Zachary" or "I like Evan". Sometimes I would also get that feeling for some of my friends (girls, remember). But that was weird, disgusting and gross, because you weren't supposed to feel that way with other girls. I just took this as further evidence of my being defective.

Then I got to puberty and realized that boys were noticing me and wanted to be around me, even though I was defective, because I was apparently a 'girl' and had boobs. This was okay with me. The concept of "transgender" didn't even enter into my consciousness until I was in my 20s. I had no idea that there were other people who felt like I did. I just though the whole time that I was uniquely wrong somehow.

Kieron Andrew
04-18-2010, 03:54 PM
I always knew i was male, but i hid behind the label of lesbian because i have always been sexually attracted to girls so it was easier to get dates that way to experiment...once that started not to fit, i decided to that i needed to come out as trans...so it was sexuality first then gender even though i always knew i was male...does this even make sense lol

Abraxas
04-18-2010, 05:11 PM
I dunno, for me it was probably around the same time I would guess. Maybe 8 years old. Although for me, since I'm gay, it was hard to differentiate between liking boys because I was attracted to them as people, or because I wanted to be like them.
That seems to have gone away now that my boyfriend is in the picture and I've started transition. I'm not nearly so concerned with needing to be like someone; now I can just be myself, and be in love with my boyfriend, and the two are definitely separate.

Faith_G
04-18-2010, 09:12 PM
Gender identity first, definitely. I had gender issues long before I had any idea what sex was.

The gender identity/body dysmorphia stuff combined with an unrelentingly homophobic upbringing left me with a lot of ambivalence towards sex and I had no clear orientation - at least not that I was willing to embrace. :straightface: Accepting my gender identity has freed me up to admit that I might <gasp> like guys. :eek: :D

pamela_a
04-18-2010, 11:24 PM
Neither and both. Being raised as I was the idea of being attracted to a man wasn't an option. I felt wrong about who (what) I was but I never understood why. I enjoyed female company but I have a difficult time saying I was "attracted" to women. In spite of that I got married and had children. It wasn't until I accepted the fact I was a woman that I even allowed myself to entertain the idea of being attracted to men but even then it was a moot point as I was married at the time.

When I was widowed last October all the barriers I'd built collapsed. I now find myself more and more looking for male companionship. Maybe it's something new or maybe it's been there all along and I've never acknowledged it until now. I'm not sure I'll ever know, but then does it really matter?

Shawn
04-18-2010, 11:47 PM
(I've had too much time to think lately.)

So yeah, basically I questioned whether or not I was a dude way before I questioned whether or not I was attracted to women. When I finally realized I solely liked the ladies, one of my first thoughts was, "Maybe I'm just a butch lesbian and got confused." But then immediately I tossed this thought because it seemed (and still seems) utterly ridiculous. If it really was nothing but orientation woes, there's no reason I would've have taken the larger (and arguably riskier) jump to gender rather than desire first.

For those of you that had both your gender identity and sexual orientation called into question for yourselves, just curious in what order you did it. I don't know if my situation is unique or the norm.

I'd be interested in the answers of both FtM and MtF transfolk, if the latter feels so inclined. :)
I always felt like a guy, so realizing that I was atrracted to females just made sense. I thought that meant that I was a lesbian and I lived that life for many years, but it just never fit me. Now, life is finally right!
Shawn

Karen564
04-19-2010, 12:45 AM
I believe you need to do both in way at 1st...then concentrate on your gender, and the rest will follow.......But you probably already went through step 1 already...


Like for myself, I always felt born into the wrong gender since the age of 5 and that was way before I had any sexual attraction to any sex...

Then when I got older, I followed suit of what a normal male was supposed do and start going out with girls, which I loved being with the all the girls, but after my 1st sexual experience with one, it all felt so very wrong to me, as in, felt I was the one that should of been one on the receiving end during the act, and also confirmed the feeling that I had the wrong plumbing... then I thought, maybe that girl just wasn't the one for me, so I did it with another & another, etc. but it still left me feeling very, very wrong performing as the male...and feeling even worse that my body didn't match the way I felt inside my head on every level..

Fast forward, 30+ years, that strong feeling of being born as the wrong gender never faded on every level, both physically, mentally & sexually..

So later when I started my transition process & then onto HRT, I left all the sexuality out of the picture & worked on my gender exclusively for years, then let the sexuality fall where ever it may after...
Today, I now have the hots for guy's sexually big time, but I still like to keep all my options open, but either way, I need to be the female on the receiving end..

Sorry if that's TMI....
:hugs:

halfman_halfamazing
04-19-2010, 03:45 AM
i'm gonna say gender identity? idk because whenever i liked a girl, the first time was one of my best friends when i was about 13/14 i never felt like a girl. I never felt lesbian. I felt like a boy with a girl but I did feel kind of like 'whoa, wtf..' like 'what is going on?' i was never a lesbian. high school i had the double life where i was dating my girlfriend online who thought i was bio and i was going to an all girl school where i was just trying to catch a date. It wasnt until i got out that i became more manly and the man before you.
I had gotten girlier in high school i was like ok enough of this boyishness let it go so i finally started listening to my sister on how to dress and such. So i really dont think people saw it coming unless they recall my youth then they could be all 'ohh.. well duh.. there it is'

LisaM
04-19-2010, 08:11 AM
Definitely, gender identity first. I remember wanting to be female when I was 4 or 5. My questioning my sexuality was years away.

NiCo
04-19-2010, 09:39 AM
Never had a problem with how I see myself gender wise but a few times I questioned if I liked females sexually, males sexually and both. I know I have always liked men, but when I turned about 17 y/o I started having strong feelings for females…it stayed that way until a few weeks after starting T, and then I became less and less attracted to them until it got to the stage where I couldn’t be in a relationship with them. I don’t even know if I could have sex with a female…too many bad experiences perhaps, or maybe I was masking my true self to appear more masculine. Idk.

What I do know is I am a man who likes men…and therefore I am gay. I think I may have experienced normal teenage sexual confusion but I have never doubted what I am gender wise. Never.

EnglishRose
04-19-2010, 11:55 AM
As a kid, I had plenty of what could be seen as gender issues but never attributed any of them to gender identity; I guess I accepted the default? So my orientation wasn't set pretty much until around 12, but I never considered myself female until recently.

Thornton
04-19-2010, 07:54 PM
Sexual orientation first, gender identity second.

I actually cam out 3 times in my life. First as bi, then as butch lesbian, then finally as straight man. I'm pretty content being a straight man. I don't really see myself walking out of any more closet doors in my future. I feel like things finally make sense. But I can't tell the future. As I stand I don't see it ever happening, but I might end up pansexual. But, yeah, i highly doubt that.

[EDIT] ok, so I should've clarified. I did come out to myself gender-wise at the age of 5 as male, but then I went right back in that closet out of fear. I didn't come back out til the age of 17, when I was sure who I was attracted to.

So which came first, the identity or the orientation, is really up to interpretation.

Karen564
04-19-2010, 10:37 PM
Maybe I should put this in much simpler terms...

Your Gender does Not determine your Sexuality, just as Your Sexuality does Not determine your Gender...

Treat them as 2 separate issues...:hugs:

mapletree
04-19-2010, 10:40 PM
I just asked myself what I would want to sleep with ?
woman woman woman woman and woman

WalT
04-20-2010, 02:07 PM
I knew I was bi/pan around the same time I knew my gender identity (around 3 or 4). I just didn't know what either of them were until I was in my tween years. It's not that I had sexual feelings that early, I just knew I "liked" people, just plain and simple. I saw myself as just plain bisexual until maybe 13 or 14 when I learned about pansexuality, then started identifying as that (though it is much easier to explain you are bisexual to people than pansexual). It's not that my orientation has changed, it's just the words for it have.

However I've been out as pan since I was 13, but still have yet to feel entirely comfortable coming out in the real world as FtM. My sexual orientation was soooo much easier to deal and cope with, let me tell you that (although I still hid my orientation from some of my peers; simply didn't want to attract attention to myself, I was being beaten up enough as it is and didn't want people to just like me because they thought I was a "hot bi chick"). I didn't come to terms with being FtM until about six months or so ago.

Ashley Lynn Swift
04-20-2010, 03:00 PM
For me It was diffinantly Gender first. Ever since I can remember my christmas wish every year was to wake up and be the girl I always should have been. growing up I always tended to act more like a girl then a boy. I would always chose playing with barbies over playing with cars anytime me and my friends where playing any type of game I always pretended I was a girl.
then as I grew up and started to become aware of my sexuality i really started to get confused I knew that I was attracted to girls, but there was also an attraction to certain boys too. I even experimented with one of my friend but it didn't seen right. So by the time I reached high school I was identfing myself as a lesbian trapped in a man's body.
Then when I started my transition over a year ago I just alway claimed that I was a lesbian. it wasn't until about two months ago that I found myself starting to feel some attraction to men again. After having been on the Hermonse for about 8 months. Now days I consider myself Bi, but I still prefer women over men, and transmen over both GG's and GM's.

DanielMacBride
04-20-2010, 03:27 PM
For me, the first *concrete* thing that was called into question was my orientation. However, let me clarify that - I have known since I was maybe 3 years old that *something* was very wrong, but given the environment I grew up in and the rigid gender conditioning that came with it, I didn't have the parameters or the tools to articulate what that *something* was. I just knew that I didn't fit the usual "girly" things - I hated dresses and ballet and all the stuff my mother insisted on forcing me to do because I wasn't "graceful" or "ladylike" enough (well duh mom, there'd be a reason for that lol...) I used to describe my life as being like walking through a Dali painting (think "Soft Watch", where everything appears solid but is slipping out of reach and you can't get a decent grip) and being the only person who KNEW that's what it was - everyone else thought it was normal. If I look back now I can see the signs clear as day though - I was a total tomboy: preferred jeans, skateboards, climbing trees and the company of boys to dresses, ballet, and tea parties with girls lol.

So when I was about 14 I think, I realised that I was attracted to girls as well as boys so from that point I identified as bi, while still knowing but not being able to articulate *why* I didn't fit everyone else's idea of a girl. Because of a combination of the family expectations, rigid gender role conditioning and not knowing what the other options were (as well as I think a degree of denial - I used to think it was me that was wrong, that I had to somehow try to fit the role I had been placed in), I did all the "girl" things - went through an "uber-femme" phase in my late teens/20s, got married, had kids and threw myself into being a fulltime parent in an attempt to "fit" and to distract myself from knowing that something wasn't right but not being able to pinpoint what that something was. It took me till I was almost 37 years old to figure out exactly *what* was wrong and what I had to do with it o_o

My orientation has been much more fluid than my gender identity - I started out as a closet bi (default mode for people who look like girls in my family was heterosexual, no other options allowed), then about 5 or 6 years ago went through a period of not being attracted to men at all and identifying as lesbian (that lasted about 2 years until the time I came out as trans). During the time I ID'd as lesbian, I had a very brief but strange relationship lol (there was a kinda weird power dynamic thing going on, where both of us were constantly trying to gain the upper hand) and when that relationship ended, I was left with an unsettling feeling that something still wasn't quite right. I knew I still liked girls, so I knew my orientation wasn't in question - so I dug a bit deeper and realised that the reason I didn't fit the female role or feel comfortable in it, was because I didn't FEEL female, and then it kinda snowballed from questioning why a particular power dynamic made me uncomfortable, into realising that I wasn't who I thought I was at all, and finding that a whole lot of stuff suddenly made sense.

Once I actually allowed myself to explore the possibility (or for that matter even realised it WAS a possibility! lol) that my gender was not the same as my birth sex, it was very obvious to me what my gender identity is, and it has remained solid since I realised I'm male - I have never once questioned it beyond "am I sure I'm doing the right thing?" (and the answer is always a resounding "YES!"). My orientation however has been much more fluid - since coming out as trans I have gone from straight guy to pansexual. It has changed, and yet it's pretty much still the same orientation I started with (except that now I don't call it "bi" because having a better understanding of gender, I don't subscribe to the idea that gender is a binary; and to me, "pansexual" covers every possible gender, not just the standard binary options).

*wanders off to crawl into bed since it's almost 4:30am and I have to be up at 8am to take Ethan to school....*

Ze
04-21-2010, 10:58 AM
Maybe I should put this in much simpler terms...

Your Gender does Not determine your Sexuality, just as Your Sexuality does Not determine your Gender...

Treat them as 2 separate issues...:hugs:

They're indeed technically two separate issues, but society definitely makes them similar based on how we define sexuality (attracted to "men," attracted to "women," etc) and any variations to man-woman/heterosexual creates a struggle in life. Orientation and gender get all muddled up in my brain sometimes because society likes to put them in related categories.

So that's what I was trying to get across, but didn't know how to say that. :heehee:

Leo Lane
04-27-2010, 05:59 AM
I've been questioning my gender identity since age 6 or earlier. I never thought about my sexual orientation till I was 12.

Picklebob
04-29-2010, 10:03 AM
I'm not quite sure what would be first for me. I remember gender roles being impressed on me when I was very young (girls have long hair and wear skirts and boys have short hair and wear pants) and thinking, ok, I'm a boy, I need to do this.

About the time I started 6th grade, I was intently curious about what it would be like to be a girl. At that time, I wished that I could go to bed and wake up the next morning as a girl. I also wished that I could go back to being a guy if I didn't like being a girl. During 7th grade, I found my way into my mother's closet, and decided that I was a crossdresser, even though I "knew" that it was "wrong" from the first time I put on women's clothing.

I continued identifying as a crossdresser until about a year ago when I realized that I was more between genders. Some days I am more feminine, and some days I am more masculine. I now call myself transgender because I kind of find myself in the middle of the gender spectrum a lot.

As far as sexual orientation goes, from the time in 8th grade when I noticed girls, I've never really questioned my orientation. I'm just interested in girls.

Stephanie Anne
04-29-2010, 10:22 AM
Oh totally! If it was just a question of orientation, I would have been a happy gay boy years ago. But nooo this whole gender f$%k up got in the way and made me question my orientation to this day.

nikkijo
04-29-2010, 12:17 PM
the male body repulses me.. period. nikki first emerged when i was 13 and slowly she is becomming more dominate in who gets to show themselves in my life... so ive stepped beyond CD into transgender but if/when idecide my life can handle a full change id end up being a lesbian... orientation was never the question..

Ze
04-29-2010, 12:23 PM
the male body repulses me.. period.

Umm...thank you?

Bones
05-24-2010, 05:39 AM
From a very young age I did not have a "strong sexuality." I just liked "whoever." Only within the last 4 or 5 years or so did I hear what pansexual was and realize, "Well, that's what I am." When people asked if I was gay or straight, I'd just say, "Whatever. I like people." That's how I was. And with my gender identity, I'd most often say, "I'm just a person. I don't feel strongly one way or the other."

Well, that wasn't very true. I wanted a male body but I didn't think about those differences until I was much older, in my teens. I was not a social outcast, but I was not part of the "dating scene," and when I thought about sex, I envisioned myself as a male. For some reason, however, that was not odd to me and I didn't question my gender identity. I still thought I was "just a person." Not really a guy or a girl on the inside. Well, then I put myself in sexual situations, thinking, "Yes, the person I wish I was is a man, who who am I?" The realization that I was a girl and could do nothing about it threw me into chaos three years ago. I'd been a cross dresser for several years at that point, dressing as a boy exclusively. My parents did not detect this because they just thought I was being a tomboy. But in my mind, I was dressed like a boy.

I never went through a "lesbian" stage or anything like that... like I said, my sexuality is very fluid and seems to have no boundaries (in terms of gender/sex I mean). I would say I have always been content with my sexuality and really only questioned my gender. Now, I DID go through a, "I'M A GAY BOY!" phase early in transition. I was obsessed with the sexual aspects of being a gay man (such as... [ahem!] "frotting"?). Well. I got over that for two reasons; 1) I will never have that penis and 2) I can't deny it, I'm attracted to women also.

olga
05-24-2010, 08:59 PM
For me, sexual orientation was first. I finally came to terms a couple of years ago that I’m not sexually attracted to women. Dating (and my marriage) was only an attempt to do what’s normal and expected…

Now I know that I’m neither sexually attracted to women nor men in my male persona.

Second was gender ID. I feel more feminine than masculine. This is still pretty new to me. My female side is attracted to women, but more in the sense that I want to be the woman in question.

Very confusing. But hey, isn’t that what makes life fun? :drink:


olga

Bones
05-24-2010, 09:26 PM
but more in the sense that I want to be the woman in question.I understand this very well (except I want to be the man obviously). I used to think I was some sort of autosexual, or attracted to myself or something... but I realized it's just that I'm more comfortable in that role. I cannot enjoy sexual or romantic situations at all "as a woman." It sounds like it's the same way for you, just the other way around (I'm just throwing ideas out here; don't let me speak for you!). :happy:

RachelZ
05-25-2010, 03:09 PM
Well my orientation wasn't hard to figure out. Of course I've questioned myself a few times, but the answer has always been clear to me. I'm not attracted to men. But my problem is I can't figure my gender identity because I keep flip flopping back and forth. I have days when I feel like a man and I have days when a feel like a women. So I'm still trying to decide what kind of person I want to be.

Kieron Andrew
05-25-2010, 03:13 PM
I have days when I feel like a man and I have days when a feel like a women. So I'm still trying to decide what kind of person I want to be.
nothing at all wrong with being an inbetweeny :)

alpha12
05-26-2010, 12:25 AM
I was raised without any recognition that gender or orientation outside the community-recognized norms existed. Playing with boys was not allowed. I got in trouble regularly in kindergarten for playing with (and fighting with) the boys. The girls relentlessly played house, and when I was forced to play with the girls, I invariably played the dad.

From first grade on, kids were separated by gender and I barely spoke to anyone not female other than teachers for the next thirteen years. I wasn't aware of sexuality much either, but certainly orientation became an issue. I was clearly different, in many ways, physically I was taller and stronger, but socially I was incredibly inept and didn't know how to play those games at all. Ended up being very quiet and seriously depressed from late elementary on and off until I left.

When I did leave the fundamentalist lifestyle in my early twenties, I was dealing with serious mental health crisis brought about by the fundamentalist lifestyle. When I met my girlfriend, I just assumed I must be bisexual, because I had just begun to learn about the existence of sexual orientation. My girlfriend was confused however, by, well, me. Despite my feminine appearance, I was not feminine enough for her.

Although I can now identify the incidence of gender dysphoria throughout my childhood and particularly adolescence, I only really began to think of myself as gender ambivalent when I experienced very extreme gender dysphoria and very severe depression during pregnancy. When the same thing recurred in my second pregnancy, my thought that I am not really set up to be a woman became more a part of my conscious identity.

I sure don't feel like a gay man, although I am married to a man. I sure don't feel like a lesbian, although I experience the desire for women pretty often. I guess I just feel like I'm trying to make do with what body and hormones and such that I have, because I'd rather deal with gender dysphoria than with transitioning. To me, that means enjoying the male body vicariously, through that of my partner, and frequently wishing for (ok, lusting after :drooling: ) straight sex with a woman.

So, back to the question: I felt different in a gender- rather than an orientation-based way first, but I consciously identified as gay before I identified as having gender identity issues.

Bones
05-26-2010, 03:43 AM
Hmmm. Despite being a tomboy, I never really got into fights. I was a brainy kid. I really preferred just sitting under a tree and talking. I think that was probably a "girly" thing to do, but I still knew I wasn't like them. My group of friends was actually... 2 boys and 2 girls in elementary school, plus myself. Later in elementary school all of my friends were girls. The whole "cooties" thing, you know. Boys wouldn't get near me. Then in middle school it was all boys for friends (like 12 guys) and 2 or 3 girls. Then in high school it was pretty mixed again. I was always that "oddball." A lot of kids thought I was a boy when they met me. I also never dated any boys and people knew from a young age that I liked boys and girls. I was gender-neutral a lot of the time. People did not know how to address me.

When I played "house," I actually tried really hard to play a genderless character most of the time, because I was somehow ashamed of my desire to play a boy role. So I'd play an ambiguous role, but in my mind it was a male role, even if others naturally labeled me as a girl.

Physically I have always been the smallest and weakest person in any group. That did not change my feelings however. Though I did at a pretty young age realize it was pointless to try to be a boy. I was weaker than most girls. In 5th grade I played "rough soccer" with the boys. They chased me, I ran backwards, fell, and sprained my wrist. It was the most horrible thing, because I loved to draw and I couldn't for weeks. That all sounds very feminine, yet I know my identity is that of a guy.

I did for a long time feel like I might be some sort of gay boy. I wanted to be male, but oddly enough not overly masculine. I liked the idea of being a passive male, who was gentle, kind, respectable, and well-spoken. Somehow this is all just "gay" and that makes people doubt my identity. But see, a man can be all these things and still a man. And really, I didn't turn out that way. In reality, I'm crude, loud, obnoxious, blunt, and rude just like most other men. I'm kind of horrified at my own behavior sometimes but it just comes so naturally.

4serrus
05-26-2010, 08:57 AM
Alpha, who are you and what are you doing in my brain. Your childhood seems a LOT like mine was. I also grew up in a rather fundamentalist (christian) environment, that screwed me up mentally for years and years. I also nearly killed myself when I got pregnant, and fell into a deep unrelenting depression for over five years. Worst. Thing. Ever.

Ze
05-26-2010, 09:02 AM
I can't imagine how either of you survived pregnancy. The very thought of myself going through it is...horrifying isn't a strong enough word.

And perhaps that's why the "pregnant man" thing on Oprah upset me so much. Seeing him actually triggered my own dysphoria.

alpha12
05-26-2010, 09:42 AM
No, horrifying isn't close to a strong enough word. Nothing like a parasite living off your body, turning you not only weaker, sick, and miserable, but also unbearably feminine. And everyone around who was willing to let gender slide, just out a sense of politeness and avoiding sexist behavior, suddenly starts treating me like some kind of Victorian-era, fainting-spell-prone, weak girl. And you have to spent huge amounts of time at an ob-gyn office. It doesn't help that the pregnancy and birth rituals in US culture, while slowly changing, are more or less founded on the principle that women are weak and need to have their subservience to men and their inherent weakness reaffirmed. Horrifying is not close to an adequate descriptor.

I wonder how common people like 4serrus and myself are. The medical people insist on treating depression that occurs in pregnancy as just a variant of post-partum depression. They weren't really interested in hearing about the huge role that gender dysphoria played in causing or contributing to my very serious depression in both pregnancies. I sought out a therapist who specializes in GLB issues, but gender issues were not really something he had an awareness of.

Ze
05-26-2010, 09:51 AM
Yeah...I just can't...yeah no...

I honestly don't have words to express my horror. Kudos to you (and serrus) for surviving such stuff. I decree that makes you both stronger men than most of us here, enduring perhaps the most intense form of "anti-masculinity" and the epitome of dysphoria and yet somehow living to tell the tale.


I wonder how common people like 4serrus and myself are. The medical people insist on treating depression that occurs in pregnancy as just a variant of post-partum depression. They weren't really interested in hearing about the huge role that gender dysphoria played in causing or contributing to my very serious depression in both pregnancies. I sought out a therapist who specializes in GLB issues, but gender issues were not really something he had an awareness of.

That's an excellent curiosity and point.

7sisters
05-26-2010, 10:28 AM
I have nothing to add, but here is an interesting link and point of view
http://sethisaboy.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/figuring-on-things/

christina marie
05-26-2010, 10:50 AM
for me it was as most gender first.always knew i was "different" but tried my best to fit the role expected of me. complete with full-blown overcompensation at every turn. I am still in the process of figuring out who i really am inside,but i am finally starting to feel comfortable in my own skin. . . a little. . .maybe. Orientation is a subject i tend not to look too deeply at,am more attracted to personality,so it seems kind of irrelevant to me.

NiCo
05-26-2010, 11:25 AM
I can't imagine how either of you survived pregnancy. The very thought of myself going through it is...horrifying isn't a strong enough word.

And perhaps that's why the "pregnant man" thing on Oprah upset me so much. Seeing him actually triggered my own dysphoria.

Same here. Hence why I refused sexual activity all together, and would never dare do it with that. Glad I’ve had a hysterectomy, thank god I never will have to go through with it. I feel really sad for guys who have went through with it, not by their choice but because of family reasons, having to be something they aren’t. I have no sympathy for the “pregnant man” and I do not take him seriously as a man. Carrying a baby AFTER transitioning? WTF? No.

Don't get me wrong, I’m sad I’ll never have bio children...but I am not going to beat myself up about it, there was only one way I could and I seriously wasn't willing to go through with it.

The end.

Ze
05-26-2010, 11:29 AM
Same here. Hence why I refused sexual activity all together, and would never dare do it with that.

Exactly. Not only would I not do it that way, but even if I did, the possible outcome is so horrible to bear that it's best not to risk it at all.


I have no sympathy for the “pregnant man” and I do not take him seriously as a man. Carrying a baby AFTER transitioning? WTF? No.

I wouldn't go as far as all that, personally. To each their own in my book, but he and the resulting media definitely didn't do us any favors.

Lorileah
05-26-2010, 11:34 AM
this makes my head even more confused, but thanks guys for basically supporting the fact that I am not as insane as I thought I was. (even if that sentence did not reinforce the fact)

Being as this is the TM section, I stayed out but now to be brief, I think both sides go through this. We feel gender first (why can't I be like...him or her??) sexual later (or never???). Oh and some of us XY's never had the desire to make or bear children. I am with Ze...icckkkyyy :)

Ze
05-26-2010, 11:38 AM
Being as this is the TM section, I stayed out but now to be brief, I think both sides go through this.

And since when has my Lori felt like she can't post in here? :slap:


Oh and some of us XY's never had the desire to make or bear children. I am with Ze...icckkkyyy :)

Well, I do want to be a daddy some day, but I could care less about bloodline and biology. :)

NiCo
05-26-2010, 11:39 AM
I wouldn't go as far as all that, personally. To each their own in my book, but he and the resulting media definitely didn't do us any favors.

I can't get my head around doing it after transition. I can accept why before but not after.

The media made matters worse, if he had kept it to his private life, fair enough but no...he tarnished us all and that's why i can't take him seriously. I only respect people who gives us a good name, not someone who gives us a bad name. Tis sad.

I agree with each to their own, but he didn’t exactly keep it to each to their own, he involved us all.

Anyways, back on topic. ;)

I think I’m actually bi-curious. I fancy women but wouldn’t be with them…I think I’d probably experiment too…but I wouldn’t be able to commit. I struggle committing to any relationship; the one I’m in just now is very relaxed and used to be open…but I’ve decided to attempt at committing and so far so good, I’m not feeling suffocated. :p

I'm stuck between bi-curious and gay... :eek:

Ze
05-26-2010, 11:49 AM
I can't get my head around doing it after transition. I can accept why before but not after.

Me neither, but neither before nor after unless by extreme pressure or manipulation. Perhaps his desire for a biological child was simply that strong; it further insults me personally, but what can you do.


I agree with each to their own, but he didn’t exactly keep it to each to their own, he involved us all.

I guess insofar as he identifies as a transman, but I don't recall him making any outrageous claims as, "This is what all transmen do." It was the media, lacking education, and misconstrued assumptions by the general public that really did us all in. Just like anybody else can go public with their personal story, it's fine just as long as listeners remember that it's a personal story. That was the biggest problem with this situation. It's hard for outliers to be seen as outliers until what's "usual" for us is already understood by others. In an odd way, though, I see him as more a dude than most of us here; much like what I said earlier about transmen enduring pregnancy in general.

7sisters
05-26-2010, 11:49 AM
No two fingerprints are the same. And no two people are alike. It must be lonely for Mr. Beattie. What he did was like throwing a lighted match into a oil well. He has made people uncomfortable. And his actions call for a lot of rethinking on gender issues.

I am not in the position to judge him. I just see him as a colourful thread in the gender tapestry. Sometimes I think that he must be so scared the word 'man'could get taken away from him. Then I think he shrugs away what poeple think. He has a life to live and he does not care what the world must think. Who knows what motivated him. And it may be unfair for me to enter into conjecture.

NiCo
05-26-2010, 11:56 AM
Good points. I stand by what I said :)

Bones
05-27-2010, 02:50 PM
You know.
I think I could make it through pregnancy but... I don't want to. I don't think I would feel that a child is a parasite or anything like that. I don't like the idea of pregnancy but I would never speak of it in such hateful words. To me it would be a bizarre experience and I would try to disassociate myself from it. I'd have to just tell myself it was someone else's body.

Oh and I certainly believe Thomas Beatie is a man. I don't degender people simply because they are different than me.

kurokaze
06-16-2010, 11:12 PM
Heya Ze,

(and other forum peeps)

JUST a "butch lesbian" ... confused... uh... THAT PART is already confused --- even if you correctly identify "butch lesbian" you're NOT //just// that, you're the cat's pajama's ... one or more bags of chips or ... however that slang stuff works (( you're "cool" =^_^= ))

So you say it was FIRST a matter of [[ gender identity / presentation / transition thoughts ]] ... wow! same here hehe (( sorta... but I'll get to that ))

Well ... that's pretty much the opposite of... My MTF (trans) partner thought herself "gay" or "bi" for years... though she's transitioning now, and is quite happy with her female identity, and even still prefers men (( and it's REALLY NICE that she loves me regardless of how I'm identified / presenting =^_^= ))

----- [[ CONTEXT ]] -----

Hum... is this thread acceptable for me to post on? I am NEITHER ftm nor mtf transsexual ... (am intersex) as well as an androgyne (( a presentation other than crossdressing or even gender-fluid ))

...ah well, here goes...

[[edit]]

"do I want to be male???" ... No... No, I am not male ... probably not even going to (re) consider it ((aprox. half my life I've known I didn't want to be male ... several years after deciding "female" I re-affirmed my decision, this time when I decided against T / instead took a low dose of estrogen... health problems which took me to an endocrinologist... meh))

DEFFINATELY KNEW I was "female, and I like females" before I attempted to sort out my identity... truly can't see myself living male (again)

o.O The rest of my post is now semi-irrelevant??? eh... it's really hard for me to

[[--- done with my edit --- nothing else I want to insert here... eww, mental image]]



I have (born with) an intersex condition which "mixed things up" my whole life (( intrinsic androgyny / femininity... at the end of the day, I'm female bodied, even if I was initially assigned and raised male )) Female bodied... but in the early '80s "external" still meant "male assigned at birth" when you're intersexed ((( non-perfect genitals, but external was the bottom line ... thank goodness for progress )))

In my NOT SO SIMPLE case... the androgyny (once upon a time) had peers occasionally calling me "gay" or "fag" or ... other things (( happened while I lived male... assigned / raised... ***shrugs*** )) ... [[ Think I'll also mention was VERY lame to use the boy's locker rooms for gym class... ultimately I stopped changing all together, but at the cost of loosing my "Easy A" when they marked my grades down for refusing ]]

... Ultimately ( As an adult ) I actually did something about it... I finally presented (publicly) as female, at age 22 (( my "over-simplified / under-explored identity" had been female since about age 16 )) ... I tried living intersex-stealth (((passing "female" was a non-issue... it WAS ALWAYS hard to pass for male though))) ... but living as (100%) female was a truely horrible experience for me (( At the very least, it was a huge shock to my system, particularly all the interest I got from MEN... oh gosh... I gave all the wrong ones a chance ))

----- [[ ALL OF THAT was just for the "context" ]] -----

Ultimately, I now consider myself a lesbian + androgyne
(( which is my sexual orientation + presentation ))

"dyke boi" is a LABEL which I find amusing =^_^=

as a //boi/// I am "not 100% female-identified" (mostly though) and am female bodied, and I like women ((hence the "dyke" part))

[[ boi ]] -- wikipedia =^_^= (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boi_(gender))

Thanks for starting this thread ze,
Ryan (the "dyke boi")

AnonyMouse
06-17-2010, 10:33 AM
I have known since I was maybe 3 years old that *something* was very wrong, but given the environment I grew up in and the rigid gender conditioning that came with it, I didn't have the parameters or the tools to articulate what that *something* was. I just knew that I didn't fit the usual "girly" things - I hated dresses and ballet and all the stuff my mother insisted on forcing me to do because I wasn't "graceful" or "ladylike" enough (well duh mom, there'd be a reason for that lol...)

Sounds like my childhood, yup. My mother usually didn't try to force me to do feminine things - she always felt like cross-gender behavior in kids was a normal thing, and didn't detract from who they were gender-wise. (Bless my mum's dear old heart for that!) But once Christianity came into it, she put her foot down. I HAD to wear my hair long (which I disliked because of practicality, not gender). I HAD to wear dresses to church. Yadda yadda yadda.

Still, it wasn't a gender issue, at least in my 3-16-year-old brain. Just personal taste.



I was raised without any recognition that gender or orientation outside the community-recognized norms existed.
Yup. I credit this for the fact that I never really questioned my own gender identity.


Alpha, who are you and what are you doing in my brain. Your childhood seems a LOT like mine was. I also grew up in a rather fundamentalist (christian) environment, that screwed me up mentally for years and years. I also nearly killed myself when I got pregnant, and fell into a deep unrelenting depression for over five years. Worst. Thing. Ever.

Oh, lord, the Fundamentalist Lifestyle. That stuff messed me up, seriously. (For instance: I'd lie awake at night worrying that I was going to die in my sleep, because I was convinced that God's mercy was the only thing keeping me awake. I was also chronically self-flagellating because I couldn't bring myself to obey the principle tenets.)

I am SO glad that my sister got me out of that BEFORE I could get married, get pregnant, and not figure this stuff out until I was 45 with children.


You know.
I think I could make it through pregnancy but... I don't want to. I don't think I would feel that a child is a parasite or anything like that. I don't like the idea of pregnancy but I would never speak of it in such hateful words. To me it would be a bizarre experience and I would try to disassociate myself from it. I'd have to just tell myself it was someone else's body.

Oh and I certainly believe Thomas Beatie is a man. I don't degender people simply because they are different than me.

I'm inclined to agree with this. I seem to be something of a special case here: I actually wanted to get pregnant when I was a kid. Not for the "miracle of life growing inside you" and all that stuff. Just because I really wanted to have kids. I figured putting up with an interior invader and the havoc it would wreak on my body would be worth it to have children.

Now, though? No, thanks. I've seen pregnant woman. The way they clutch their stomachs like they're going to fall off. Then there's the involuntary weight gain and the "waddling" and other stuff that I find repulsive not because I'm a guy, but because I have serious fat-terror issues (thank my mother for that, too). I do not want rounder breasts, fuller hips, or a rounder face (ESPECIALLY NOT THAT!) I don't care what it would do for my skin, either - I don't want that much estrogen in my system.

Still, I applaud Thomas Beatie for having the 'nads to do that. And I hope that maybe he's inspired a few people to broaden their definition of what a man is. I know that I did after I read about him the first time.

Anyway, back to the original question... Even though I'm conventionally straight (female body, attracted mainly to males), my sexuality was the first thing that I really questioned. Partially because I'd started to notice (though insistently deny) that I had a thing for certain sets of boobs. Also because of my high testosterone levels, and my persistent inability to act feminine (without trying really, really hard). I could not figure out for the life of me WHY I wasn't a lesbian. I finally decided - and this is a sentiment I still agree with - that I'd just gotten lucky. (Of course gender identity and sexual orientation are different things, but it is statistically more likely that a trans man will be attracted to women.)

got2free.Ollie
06-25-2010, 08:13 PM
I was born female but feel I should somehow be male...even though I'm ok with my female body. I try and fail at crossdressing FtM but I'm gonna get my first compression shirt so I'll be able to try more often :) and I'm also bisexual.

For me it was sexual orientation first because that's been affecting me since I was about 6-7 years old and I finally settled my confusion and uncertainty this year...about 11 years later :P

my gender identity issues started later on...maybe a few years after puberty(puberty was at 9). It was always more important to me to sort out who I was attracted to and why first. And then my mind decided to mess with me more and bring up my gender identity :P like I wasn't confused and depressed enough as it is...
so yeah...that's the order for me :)