Why?!?!?!?

[Veryconfused]

Why is it that when a girl wants to be a boy she could just be called a Tom boy and dress like a guy wihout being judged as much as a guy deciding he wants to have fun and put some makeup and short skirts on and try to experiment? Mabey someone can explain why our current day society is like this.

[Emma73]

Good question. I hope the answer happens soon.
Because I don't know either.

Luv Emma.

[Deborah Jane]

Why is it that when a girl wants to be a boy she could just be called a Tom boy and dress like a guy wihout being judged as much as a guy deciding he wants to have fun and put some makeup and short skirts on and try to experiment? Mabey someone can explain why our current day society is like this.

I have no explaination as to why our society is like this, but you, me, all of us here, are also members of society We, if want to badly enough, can change this situation by being who we are.
Nobody stops you being you and is not illegal to go out dressed exactly as you wish [within sensible reason] If you want to go out and be your femme self, what's to really stop you?
Many of us here do go out "dressed", some more than others and guess what?.....Society still functions, those who go out, enjoy living their lives, the world carries on.......No one really cares!!!

[Sheila]

you know growing up I was what society deemed a tomboy, not for me the stupid frilly pink dresses, the silly Barbie/Cindy dolls, I was one of the boys, I climbed tress, rode cows(as well as horses) bareback, I played cops n robbers, cowboys and indians ............... and incessantly I heard the lament "why can't you be like XYZ from 3 doors away ..... she's a proper little girl" :puke: at 50 I can still do many things "proper" women (and some men) wouldn't have a clue how to do, I can mess under hoods of cars, wire electrical goods, (when living with thw MIL it was me who changed the light fitting at the top of the stairs when it went not Debs (she has a tendency to set fire to things when dealing with electrics :doh:)and several other things along those lines ............ it does not make me any less of a woman just as putting on a skirt does not make you any less of a man ............. if I can venture into the world doing "man" things the only thing stopping you going out as you want is not society but YOU YOURSELF

Stop moaning/wondering why women do what they do and get away with it, start doing what you would like to do and make society accept you, you are not doing anything illegal, so what is stopping you ?

[TrekGirl1701]

I'm in complete agreement with Debs and Shelia. We are a part of society so therefore we should be the ones proving that we can wear what we want and act how we want.

I'm doing my part. I'm currently writing a fictional novel that's based on my experiences crossdressing growing up. As soon as I'm done writing it I will be coming out of the closet to everybody I know and I'll be shopping it around to publishers as the person that I am deep inside.

Will the going get tough? Hell yeah! Am I excited to traverse the uncharted territory of my life as an uncloseted crossdresser? Oh, hell yeah! :)

[lee in a skirt]

I agree completely with what your saying and it just so happens that when I started university I wrote a piece of work on a similar matter.

please note this is just my opinion on the matter and does not mean that it is true.

I believe that the basic answer is that in modern day society women have more rights than men. This is because when women were fighting for the right to vote and be seen as equal they won which they should have as they are equal. However since then some women still campaign which is why in the modern day females have more rights than males and so females are not judged on what they wear where as males are.

please let me again stress that this is only an opinion and that I do treat women as equals.

[gabimartini]

Judging from the number of inquisitive posts you made recently, it looks like your bell went off. Questions and more questions start to pop and it's easy to get overwhelmed by the lack of understanding. A lot of us go through that, I know I did.

Unfortunately, some answers just don't exist. Why does society frown on men wearing dresses, I don't know! Why does time move forward and not backward? Why does the sun come up every day? Why don't I win the lottery? Why wasn't I born a GG?

Some things are just the way they are, end of story. Although there could be technical explanations to some questions, they would certainly not give you the relief you need. For instance, technically the probability of a baby being boy or girl is 50% each -- however, understanding that from a technical point of view does little for me, since in my heart I sometimes feel I was born in the wrong 50%.

In your case, what would a lengthly explanation about gender-related behavioral patterns of Western societies do for you? Not much. You'd understand why people frown on CDing, but it wouldn't change the fact they continue to frown, you know?

The best you can do is get to know yourself, your desires, your needs, your limitations, accept them and just carry on. The kind of answers your looking for are inside your heart, and they will come to you when you are ready to deal with them. I know this may sound like hogwash from some kids movie, but it's true. Your answers, the ones that work only for you, will come, give it time.

[Vicky_Scot]

Why is it that when a girl wants to be a boy she could just be called a Tom boy and dress like a guy wihout being judged as much as a guy deciding he wants to have fun and put some makeup and short skirts on and try to experiment? Mabey someone can explain why our current day society is like this.

You do realise thats the million dollar question?

[Satrana]

Why?
5 reasons

1. Women wanting to emulate men is seen as a positive move since women were historically deemed to be the weaker and lesser sex. It was considered a natural thing for women to dream about achieving the higher status

2. Being the lesser sex, society was not particularly threatened, tomboys were after all expected to marry and have children like all other women. It was never seen as a threat or corruption of society, more a childhood adventure.

3.The male image is about power and authority which are not taboo concepts. The traditional female image is primarily sexual and sex is a taboo subject.

4. Male gender upbringing has a dislike/fear of emotional closeness amongst males - basically homophobia so a male CD is always considered a sexual threat. Whereas homophobia is not a central tenant of female upbringing so it does not set off any alarm bells

5. The feminist movement thought that to obtain equality women would have to behave and compete directly with men so all the weaknesses and submissiveness associated with femininity had to be ditched. Feminists socially engineered female crossdressing to be an outward sign of gender equality so it essentially piggybacked on the feminist movement.

So there you have it. Female crossdressing was just never considered a threat or a taboo and so was easily engineered into the feminist movement where it has become the society norm. Male crossdressing has none of these advantages. Where women had a hill to climb, men have a mountain. But luckily our society is far more progressive now largely in fact due to the success of the women's movement which deconstructed the female gender role so the mountain men face is crumbling before our eyes so it now resembles more the hill women faced.

[Karren H]

Ohh that's an easy one... Because that's the way it is.. If there was a valid reason.. Then it could be changed.. But there isn't.

[Mirani]

Why is it that when a girl wants to be a boy she could just be called a Tom boy and dress like a guy wihout being judged as much as a guy deciding he wants to have fun and put some makeup and short skirts on and try to experiment? Mabey someone can explain why our current day society is like this.

So, how many times has this question been asked here (I realise the OP is new and wouldn't know)?

I think we should all stamp our high heeled feet in childlike rage.

You never know - we may make the world change direction :straightface: and all will be fair.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Why?
5 reasons

I think Satrana basically hit the nail on the head here. I think we can sum it up in even just one reason: It's a patriarchal misogynistic society.

I'm also on board with everyone else who says if we don't like the way things are, it is our obligation to change it.

[CherryZips]

So are there any societies that accept crossdressing?

[Frédérique]

Why is it that when a girl wants to be a boy she could just be called a Tom boy and dress like a guy wihout being judged as much as a guy deciding he wants to have fun and put some makeup and short skirts on and try to experiment? Mabey someone can explain why our current day society is like this.

You're not confused -- you're just inquisitive (in a good way)...:)

Society is programmed this way, probably along the lines of a survival instinct, and it’s an obsolete way of thinking, if you ask me. You could make the case that crossdressing relieves stress, the end product of male insecurity, and a lot of wasted effort is expended in an effort to bolster one’s purported male identity. What I’m trying to say is that if you’re male, you’re expected to be male – any other existential variation cannot be right (read: queer), in the eyes of the unfortunate people who insist on polarized thinking. I think men fall back on what they know, and what they’ve been taught (you aren’t born with these concepts, IMHO), precluding any original thought about gender…:straightface:

[AKAMichelle]

Stop moaning/wondering why women do what they do and get away with it, start doing what you would like to do and make society accept you, you are not doing anything illegal, so what is stopping you ?



Very wise advice.

[JulieC]

Why is it that when a girl wants to be a boy she could just be called a Tom boy and dress like a guy wihout being judged as much as a guy deciding he wants to have fun and put some makeup and short skirts on and try to experiment? Maybe someone can explain why our current day society is like this.

Welcome to the hypocrisy of society. It's all over the place, knows no logic, knows no bounds. There's all sorts of these sorts of failures.

Here's another one; in central Asia, having teenage boys wear women's clothes and dance for an admiring all-male audience, and then being subjected to sexual abuse by their male masters is considered in those circles to be acceptable. Yet, teenage women performing the same dance? No, can't have that. That would be immoral. (lookup Dancing Boys of Afghanistan)

There's zillions of these inconsistencies.

[Lorileah]

you, me, all of us here, are also members of society We, if want to badly enough, can change this situation by being who we are.
Nobody stops you being you and is not illegal to go out dressed exactly as you wish [within sensible reason] If you want to go out and be your femme self, what's to really stop you?
Many of us here do go out "dressed", some more than others and guess what?.....Society still functions, those who go out, enjoy living their lives, the world carries on.......No one really cares!!!

Yay! Debs!!! How true is that. The majority who fear dressing are fearful for internal reasons. The "what if's"

One reason that we don't enjoy the same perks as Tom Boys is that in most of the cases of tomboys, they don't put a sexual note on it at an early age. There is a positive spin on being a tomboy, you can take them fishin', you can take them drinkin, you can go to NASCAR wit em, and then later they magically return to being "girls" and guys LIKE that.

Now, when you hear or see anything about Crossdressing men in media or when your buddies hang out together, CD's are wimps, sissies, "gay " guys out to recruit straight guys into the life style (makes you wonder what is so much better about gay sex over straight sex), who are also criminals and murderers ( I still await the newspaper article that says man in dress saves child from runaway train). And you know who perpetuates this??? MEN! With the exception of spouses (who should have been told from the start) most women don't give a dang what you wear. Who cares? You do, you are the main reason you can't be a male version of a tomboy.

[charlie]

I think Lorileah hit it. We are the reason....us as men and males in the past. When we were growing up in middle and high school we all pointed fingers and had names for guys we thought were gay, sissy's or queers. It was considered wrong and not normal to be feminine. Well look at us now. And the shoe (high heel in most cases) is on the other foot!

[kellycan27]

You do realise thats the million dollar question?

What do you think society's reaction would be to a gg that dressed in men's clothing,and sported a fake beard or mustache, and shoved a rolled up pair of socks down the front of her pants? I think that if you want to make the comparrison.. do it right.

[Ocean Mist]

Why? Because life is full of hypocrisy and always will be! I'm as hypocritical as the next, so if my recent pole of 1 person, me, is indicative of everyone and everything, it confirms my suspicions :)

[KarenCDFL]

I don't think this will ever be answered, at least in my remaining years.

When a girl wears a guys shirt it is called fashion
When a guy wears a girls shirt he is called a faggot.


What can you do? Sigh....

[Joanne f]

I wonder if it is so straight forward as you think it is , we can only see it through our eyes so i wonder if it would be the same looking at it through the tomboys eyes.

[eileendover]

Typically the group holding the "political" power, like middle-age white males, is constrained to behave in their stereotypical ways. Violating these guidelines is not acceptable, and might get you excluded from that group.

Members of other groups are freer to explore a broader range of behaviors, especially any that mimic the group in power. But even if their behavior does not fit the stereotype of the group in power, that behavior is simply considered a distraction or amusement.

[Schatten Lupus]

So are there any societies that accept crossdressing?
Some have. The one that comes to mind is that some native American tribes held the transgendered individual in very high regards, to the extent of having sacred positions for the two-spirit, and it being considered good luck to be married to one.
Today, I'm gonna guess it's more to do with an overly insecure patriach society. Men are seen as strong, women as weak. Thus a woman acting like a man would be desirable, as they strive to emulate what is the standard for strenght. A man wanting to act like a woman though would be a "downgrade" of sorts, and undesirable.
I do think that more regular gender barriers will have to be torn down before the trans community as a whole can recieve more social tolerance though.

[Tina Dixon]

Men must be men not any thing else thats the way the world looks at us.

[Hope]

It is simple, to quote Madonna, quoting Ian McEwan:

Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
'Cause it's OK to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading

[Ze]

I love how whenever this question comes up, it's always severely watered down.

As always, decent replies here come from Lori, Joanne, Kelly...actually, you know what? I think for once there's actually more replies on this topic that actually get at least part of the picture than those that are way off base. Kudos to those of you that did the former! :thumbsup: I think this is the first time I've seen a thread on this topic and did not leave in the same rage I entered it with. The Ze-Man is pleased. *strokes his Mafia cat*

Edit: I wonder how many times I can say "actually" in a single post...

[Mirani]

What do you think society's reaction would be to a gg that dressed in men's clothing,and sported a fake beard or mustache, and shoved a rolled up pair of socks down the front of her pants? I think that if you want to make the comparrison.. do it right.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Gemma87]

I don't think this will ever be answered, at least in my remaining years.

When a girl wears a guys shirt it is called fashion
When a guy wears a girls shirt he is called a faggot.


What can you do? Sigh....

I know it bugs me alot thats the way things are. :sad:

[joannemarie barker]

its as much our fault as anybody elses.girls take the bull by the horns so to speak and wear what they want.i wanted to wear pink frilly dresses as a boy,nobody said i couldn't but i didn't,well,not in front of anyone :)

[ReineD]

Why is it that when a girl wants to be a boy she could just be called a Tom boy and dress like a guy wihout being judged as much as a guy deciding he wants to have fun and put some makeup and short skirts on and try to experiment? Mabey someone can explain why our current day society is like this.

Like it or not, women's roles throughout the ages and cultures have been subordinate to men's. Even though people can cite exceptions, they are still exceptions. And the gender divide still very much exists today. Women make less money than men and they hold fewer positions of power in government and the work force. Even divorce laws are not equitable, they very much favor the men.

Society is more accepting of people moving "up" than "down" from within the pecking order. It is therefore more acceptable for women to aspire taking on aspects of men's gender roles than vice versa. Maybe the roots of all this reside in our basic instincts of survival.

Believe me, being able to wear pants is a very small crumb to have received. I would much rather have been socialized in a world where men could wear dresses and where I could be taken seriously and be treated as a true equal, whether my contribution was to have raised children or not.

[Fab Karen]

People assume that once a girl hits puberty she'll outgrow it because she'll start "noticing" boys- of course they overlook the possibility that she'll be "noticing" girls.

[bredalee25]

The reason I don't go out dressed is because i'm not confident enough with my femme look to pass as a woman.

I for one don't agree with sheila who's moaning i'm not and i'm certain the person who started this thread isn't either. They simpily asked a question it didn't sound to me as if they were moaning about it.

What if the situation were reversed and it was a bad thing for a GG to act manly and quite alright for a GM to act feminine. I think the GG's would be asking the same question of us.

Sorry but this is one of my pet peeves it's a sore subject with me. This is just another example of women doing as they please and men being held to act a certain way or be labled weird or worse the misconception that all CD's are gay.

Sorry for ranting but thanks to this forum and the wonderful country I live in I've got the right to say within reason what ever I want to say on this or any other subject.:thumbsdn:

[msniki48]

Why is it that when a girl wants to be a boy she could just be called a Tom boy and dress like a guy wihout being judged as much as a guy deciding he wants to have fun and put some makeup and short skirts on and try to experiment? Mabey someone can explain why our current day society is like this.

Just my perspective...that of an old lady who grew up in a man's world. For a woman to act strong like a man....oh there are comments...bitch is usually one of them. but we have been descensatized to seeing it often now that women's rights have allowed the female to be all she can be.

a man is at the top of the food chain. [ or so they think and so do women of our age]
for a man to act as a woman is acting less than a man....for a woman to be bold and strong...is acting like more than a woman....this of course is not truth...just a perception. :doh: [ a perception that i think will take another generation or 2 to eliminate.


women are so much more complex than men....any man who can act womanly...is using so much more of his brain than the most macho dudes on the planet....but they will not admit that...at least not yet...but we are making progress :battingeyelashes:


hugs

msniki48

[RockerTerri]

Fear. People fear anything that dosent fit into the conceptual categories their brains have created through the process of simply being immersed in a society that holds those categories as valid things, with real world meaning attached.

Theyre afraid that something that wont fit, is something they have no control over.

[Angiemead12]

because in society females are 2nd rate and yes madonna did say it in her song!

[nikkijo]

I don't think this will ever be answered, at least in my remaining years.

When a girl wears a guys shirt it is called fashion
When a guy wears a girls shirt he is called a faggot.


What can you do? Sigh....

ONLY SOMETIMES... i have on many of occation shown some "girls cuts" are identical to that of the "guys cuts" basic T's and most "boot cut" jeans are this way. the differences lie in the actual size labeling.... a girls large may infact be a mens small-tall or x small tall ... so the actual shirt looks totally different when a narrow body is combined withthe standard sleeves versus comparing a mens large to a womens 4xl. where dimentions may be identical.


and most guys who call other guys faggots or girls for that matter are uncomfortable with the fact they cant deal with their jealocy..

[Andy66]

I wonder if it is so straight forward as you think it is , we can only see it through our eyes so i wonder if it would be the same looking at it through the tomboys eyes.
Well, I'm glad you asked, Joanne. When dressed boyish or doing boyish things, I've been called a "dyke" or something similar a few times, and been looked at strangely many times. I'm usually the friend but not the girlfriend, but not really one of the guys either. Yet oddly, men seem to think of me as any other female when it benefits their egos: I am often treated like some sort of weakling or idiot... until they get to know me.

Men's and women's struggles are often different, but we all struggle. Neither men nor women have things significantly better in Western society.

[Blaire]

Very wise advice.

Except, of course, when given to someone living in a place where it is illegal!

I wonder what the perception would be in one of the planet's few matriachial societies?

The disparity questioned is even regional - there are places where CD's have more respect innately than others.

In the end, the problem lays in the last 100 years of the western world. Men > Women, and to aspire to something less than you are is just wierd!

[Pepper2783]

Because they have virgins. Now suck it up and act like a man. Or woman.

[eluuzion]

Why is a woman in a suit a “business person” but a man in a dress is a “transvestite?”
Why is a blackboard green?
Why do you click on start to exit Microsoft Windows?

Life is full of questions with no “good” answers.

I think this one might have some historical background. “Cavemen carried clubs to display “power”. We now call those weapons “money”. If Fred Flintstone and Barney set out to hunt for food wearing dresses and carrying purses, I doubt that Wilma would be anticipating anything impressive for dinner. The most physically intimidating males were viewed as having the potential to be the best “providers”, so they were the most desirable “mates” in “Bedrock”. Any bar full of alpha males will convince you that many still believe in the “biggest club” theory, rather than “money”…

Although the prehistoric “club” has been replaced with the “dollar bill” as the symbol of “power”…money is not as visually “convincing” as a muscle-ridden body builder. Society apparently still needs a certain display of visibly recognizable physical “strength” to reassure them. Just look at the popularity of “professional” wrestling events.

Regardless of how obvious it is in any given situation, any visual dilution of the “male” image still evokes a loss of faith in the male’s ability and worth as a “hunter/provider”.

That’s my 2 cents, where’s my penny? :)

[Karen564]

Why is it that when a girl wants to be a boy she could just be called a Tom boy and dress like a guy wihout being judged as much as a guy deciding he wants to have fun and put some makeup and short skirts on and try to experiment? Mabey someone can explain why our current day society is like this.

Maybe you should ask this same question in the FTM section, just so you get a better idea of what they think about all this......:D

[crusadergirl]

Its not as one sided as we think. I notice alot of bad things said about boys and girl how they dress. Someone asked me why i dressed as a girl i just said because girls dress as guys minus the mustache for the most part. This question comes up and its never easy to answer.

[Satrana]

So are there any societies that accept crossdressing?
The most liberal societies are found in South East Asia, in particular Thailand, Philippines and Polynesia. It is common to see TGs walking about the streets with widespread social and family acceptance and they are also a common sight in TV shows. However their gay communities also routinely include crossdressing so gender and sexual orientation are lumped together and considered as a single issue. This means the hetereosexual CD is not widely acknowledged. It is ironic that these more welcoming societies are in many ways less knowledgeable about gender and sexual differences.

I recently spent a week in Thailand 100% enfemme and was warmly welcomed by the locals who never hesitated to treat me with respect. I was never once stared at and I dont pass for a second nor was I trying to pass. I walked around in five star hotels and shopping malls without incident interacting with everyone. Even when they heard my deep male voice they never winced.

I wish Buddhism was the world's dominant religion then we would not have developed the transphobic attitudes we see in the West.

[Mirani]

If Fred Flintstone and Barney set out to hunt for food wearing dresses and carrying purses, I doubt that Wilma would be anticipating anything impressive for dinner. The most physically intimidating males were viewed as having the potential to be the best “providers”, so they were the most desirable “mates” in “Bedrock”.

That’s my 2 cents, where’s my penny? :)

:heehee: Fred and Barney wore dresses!

[Sheila]

This is just another example of women doing as they please and men being held to act a certain way or be labled weird or worse the misconception that all CD's are gay.

Women are paid less on average than men for doing the same jobs, women still struggle to gain acceptance as reliable middle/upper managerial material, mainly due to the "owww she will need time off to have babies, look after kids, need time for sick kids, school plays, then there are the monthly PMT crap" as has already been said, when we dress in jeans and t-shirts and not the pretty dresses and skirtk, it is viewed as a phase we will grow out of :Angry3:,

WE don't do as we like, without backwash you know .........we are called all sorts of names .............. guess what ? some of us let it wash all over us, and get on and do what WE as individuals want to, we ain't breaking any laws ................... we don't worry about what others think .......... what we do does sometimes take guts, it does hurt when we are thought of as less than our pretty, simpy, counterpart "**real females**" ......... why the hell should I expect a man carrying 4 boxes to stand with the door open for me because I am female, surely sense dictates that I hold the door open for him !!!!!!!!

So many asking for understanding for being who they are, yet not willing to look beneath the surface .................. must be a man thing !!!!!!

[Deborah Jane]

:heehee: Fred and barney wore dresses!

I'm not so sure about Fred, but Barney did get caught by Wilma [Freds SO] wearing one of her dresses :eek::heehee:

111832

[Toni_Lynn]

Why is it that when a girl wants to be a boy she could just be called a Tom boy and dress like a guy wihout being judged as much as a guy deciding he wants to have fun and put some makeup and short skirts on and try to experiment? Mabey someone can explain why our current day society is like this.

Sorry --- this could just as easily be turned around and stated as

Why is it that when a boy wants to be a girl he could just be called a drag queen and a celebrity and dress like a girl without being judged as much as a girl deciding she wants to have fun and put a prosthetic penis between her legs and wear men's underwear and men's suits, shirt and pants and try to experiment - and get called a dyke? Maybe someone can explain why our current day society is like this.

Ludicrous, eh? Yet how many drag queens etc are embraced by society and are stars on TV compared to the number of drag kings.

Life is tough on both sides of fence. Such 'in general' characterisations are a slap to our ftm brothers

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

NOTE about the edits: I originally typed my reply before having any coffee. That coupled with the fact that threads that whine that 'girls have it so much easier cause when they wear guys clothes and no one cares' really burn my muffins! :Angry3:

[Karen564]

Women are paid less on average than men for doing the same jobs, women still struggle to gain acceptance as reliable middle/upper managerial material, mainly due to the "owww she will need time off to have babies, look after kids, need time for sick kids, school plays, then there are the monthly PMT crap" as has already been said, when we dress in jeans and t-shirts and not the pretty dresses and skirtk, it is viewed as a phase we will grow out of :Angry3:,

WE don't do as we like, without backwash you know .........we are called all sorts of names .............. guess what ? some of us let it wash all over us, and get on and do what WE as individuals want to, we ain't breaking any laws ................... we don't worry about what others think .......... what we do does sometimes take guts, it does hurt when we are thought of as less than our pretty, simpy, counterpart "**real females**" ......... why the hell should I expect a man carrying 4 boxes to stand with the door open for me because I am female, surely sense dictates that I hold the door open for him !!!!!!!!

So many asking for understanding for being who they are, yet not willing to look beneath the surface .................. must be a man thing !!!!!!

:iagree:

Yup, what Sheila said.....

One important thing I always noticed (excluding FTM's) regarding all the GG tomboy's I knew was, they never tried to "Pass" as a guy....and also know they had no desire to use the men's restroom.....EWwwww....

Geez......all this whining about some females not dressing to some males or Cders ideal woman standards & doing whatever we want is getting very tiring.....so please grow up.....

Unfair? What's unfair is our pay scale!!! :drink:

[ReineD]

This is a support forum, and last time I checked, discussion was encouraged and people weren't put down for asking questions, especially the new members?

*biting my tongue* :meditate:

[PortiaHoney]

Point for consideration: How many here who CD in private will not take it to a higher level because they view the "female" role to be a downgrade from their current postion in societies pecking order? This is not what they think others will think of them, but rather, is it their OWN views of what they do that prevents them from being more open.

Just curious, given that the most frequent answer so far is that males are deemed superior and females inferior by society and we are members of that society.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Point for consideration: How many here who CD in private will not take it to a higher level because they view the "female" role to be a downgrade from their current postion in societies pecking order? This is not what they think others will think of them, but rather, is it their OWN views of what they do that prevents them from being more open..

I actually think this margin is probably pretty slim. I don't think it's that they feel people will judge them because they're female, but rather because they're a crossdresser.

[kellycan27]

I think that "peckers" are the main problem to this whole question.:heehee:

[PortiaHoney]

I actually think this margin is probably pretty slim. I don't think it's that they feel people will judge them because they're female, but rather because they're a crossdresser.

I'm sorry Ryan. It's pretty late here and I wasn't sure what I was saying sounded right.

I'm curious about those who don't go public because THEY feel they are "lowering" themselves - not because of anybody elses opinions. It's not about passing or being convincing enough to be judged as a female and then being lumped into the "lesser beings" category.

Yes, I am sure they would be in the small minority, but I can't help feel that, with the amount of talk about societies opinions, that there must be those who actually subscribe to that way of thinking even here. And that this way of thinking is where the conflict arises within the person. It is not that they are afraid of being accepted as a female and been discriminated against on that basis or even being discovered to be a guy in a dress, but that the discrimination arises internally before any external factors come into play.

This is one of those topics which keeps getting raised and it just dawned on me that maybe this could be a reason why some keep it very private and won't even venture past their front doors.

But, then again, we live in a very liberated society, so we should all feel comfortable doing what we please, so long as no children or animals or others are hurt in the process.

:love:

[Lorileah]

ohhhh, that would be...mean. asbestos panties anyone?

So is the true answer here "life sucks"?

[Cutedot]

Madonna probably said it best in "What It Feels Like For a Girl":

Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
'Cause it's OK to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading
But secretly you'd love to know what it's like
Wouldn't you?

Fact is: it makes no sense for society to condone a man in a dress, since it would be "reducing" the societal leader to a 2nd rate citizen...

Dot

[eluuzion]

So are there any societies that accept crossdressing?

The ancient Moche civilization of northern Peru (just prior to the Incan civilization) were an interesting bunch. They are known for their sexual "pecularities" (to phrase it nicely). They actually raised some boys whose role in life was specifically to portray women. (for the pleasure of elder leaders). Too bizarre to give details here.

They are still famous for their pottery and artwork, which depicts many of their sexual antics and ceremonial sacrifices, etc.

[Veronica Nowakowski]

I consider the female role to be a step up, but man trying to be a woman a step down. But then I dress in public, very public (plan on giving a short speech en femme next Saturday and lead a workshop en femme in June), so perhaps this doesn't apply to me.

[Toni_Lynn]

I have given this some further thought. Consider these points.

1) Many of us feel anger that CDers can't openly wear anything feminine, yet (believe the myth that) GGs can wear guy's stuff without a second glance. This second part about GGs, in a sense, is hand in hand with an unconscious belief that women are better than or superior to men because of of this favourable situation.

2) We believe that it is because the public sees the thought that a man taking on a/ the "female" role is a step down. Yet how many men in traditionally female roles, such as nursing or teaching, get paid more than women.

3) There is a certain percentage of CDers who, as a part of their erotic life, participate in feminisation that has an element of ridicule, punishment, and humiliation in it. We allow sexual to partners to use degrading terms on us. We have handles on 'net such as CDsl(letter u)t.

When considered as a whole, I think that because of point 3, some CDers actually perpetuate and feed points 1 and 2. Point 3 reflects very heavily back on GGs. How can we expect to be treated with respect when we ourselves tear down that which we love so much through our actions.

Any thoughts

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[Satrana]

I think Madonna's choice of the word degrading is spot on. It is a lot more than just a change in social status. A rich man becoming a poor man would not receive the stigma a MTF crossdresser receives. Nor is a change in social status a source of endless ridicule and laughter that fuels Hollywood movies.

Some of the definitions from the word degrading illustrate what I am talking about.

To lower in dignity; dishonor or disgrace
To lower in moral or intellectual character; debase.
To reduce in worth or value
Reduction to a state of shame or disgrace
Loss of self-respect or dignity

Disgrace......shame......debasement. These words conjure up a moral dimension to the change in social status. It is not just a lowering in status, but a humiliating, disgraceful change in status. The only equivalent that comes to mind would be a person who becomes a prostitute - their moral integrity is called into question and their lifestyle is seen as a challenge to social values.

Simply put traditional Western values see a MTF crossdressing as an abomination ie detestable, abhorrent and depraved largely due to the perceived sexual motivation.