Very important news.

[susandrea]

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/aug/05081602.html

U.S. Court Says It’s Okay for Men to Come to Work in a Dress and to Shower with Female Co-Workers

HARRISBURG, Pennsylvania, August 16, 2005 (LifeSiteNews.com) – A Pennsylvania court has opened the door for men who believe they are women to come to work in a dress and to use the women’s restroom and shower facilities. The decision by the Commonwealth Court, which upheld a lower court ruling mandating that “sexual orientation” and “gender identity” be added to the Allentown (Pennsylvania) human relations ordinance, is being decried as an “outrage” by a traditional values group.

According to the American Family Association of Pennsylvania (AFA of PA), this is not something that the majority of citizens in Allentown want and is additional evidence of judicial activism, as state law does not extend this type of special protection to homosexuals.

Diane Gramley, president of the AFA of PA in a release stated, “Gone unreported in media stories today are the acts of intimidation and harassment on the part of homosexual activists while concerned citizens in Allentown attempted to circulate and/or sign petitions the summer of 2002 after the City Council effectively pushed the ordinance changes through in April of that year…These concerned citizens simply wanted an opportunity to place the matter before all the voters in Allentown to see if the city council-approved language was what the people really wanted. Homosexual activists knew that if the people had a chance to vote the ordinance changes would be removed. I believe the majority of Allentown citizens still oppose the ordinance.”

In May 2003, Teamsters Union Local 773 forced Carbon County to reinstate a transgender prison guard because of Allentown’s addition of “gender identity” to its human relations ordinance. “This was a message to all those who do business with companies and organizations based in Allentown: Your business dealings will be directly affected by the addition of ‘sexual orientation’ and ‘gender identity’ to Allentown’s Human Relations Ordinance,” the AFA release explained. “Does the Carbon County prison still have a man dressed as a woman guard? How many strip searches of female inmates has he conducted?”

“The Commonwealth court ruling said cities have broad latitude to take steps to protect the health, safety and welfare of their citizens,” Gramley stated. “Extending special protections to homosexuals will not accomplish either as according to the CDC, 2 out of 3 cases of AIDS are men who have sex with men, 1out of 5 male homosexuals are victims of same-sex domestic violence and those involved in homosexual activity are more prone to substance abuse, eating and psychological disorders. This is not the direction a city would want to take to protect its citizens.”

“’Gender Identity’ as defined in the ordinance opens all sorts of doors for radical transsexuals,” the AFA release continued. “Even openly homosexual Congressman Barney Frank opposes such language because he knows so-called ‘transgender’ activists will use that language to literally demand that men who believe they're women be allowed to use women's restrooms and showers.”

While stepping in the right direction, this article also highlights the vast ignorance many people--especially the "moral right"-- have concerning alternative sexuality (as you can see).

[Ibuki_Warpetal]

Yup. Sounds like a bad idea.

[susandrea]

Yup. Sounds like a bad idea.

I remember reading somewhere that there are some states that require a doctor's note stating that you are a pre-op TS in order to be legally allowed to use a woman's restroom.

Also, somewhere in this forum is an article where a THIRD bathroom was set up for transgendered men.

I can see where the situation can get tricky, because there will be (you just know it) a few bad apples that will take advantage of the situation and make the entire group look bad.

But AT LEAST people are looking at the situation! That's a huge difference from even ten years ago!

As long as the questions are making it to the table there is hope. It'll take a long time, but these are the baby steps that must happen for real progress to be made.

[Tamara Croft]

I remember reading somewhere that there are some states that require a doctor's note stating that you are a pre-op TS in order to be legally allowed to use a woman's restroom.That I can agree with.... but showering????? sorry but I don't agree with that at all.

A Pennsylvania court has opened the door for men who believe they are women to come to work in a dress and to use the women’s restroom and shower facilities.So..... what door will this have opened then hmm??? just how many men are going to start dressing and claiming they believe they are women just so they can start showering with women.... this has got to be the most retarded thing I've ever read. It's a bloody outrage..... I don't agree with it..... :thumbsdn: :mad: :thumbsdn:

[Fallen Angel]

well tamara i agee with you and some of the others as far as the restrooms and shower part.the clubs that i go to have unisex bathrooms. either a man or femal can use them, but only one at a time there not multy user ones now as far as men bieng able to go to work in femal clothing i dont see a proublem with that at all xx

[Tamara Croft]

well tamara i agee with you and some of the others as far as the restrooms and shower part.the clubs that i go to have unisex bathrooms. either a man or femal can use them, but only one at a time there not multy user ones now as far as men bieng able to go to work in femal clothing i dont see a proublem with that at all xxI agree with the female clothing 110% what someone wants to wear to work should be their preference, but shower sharing...... whatever happened to privacy??? I don't care if they believe they are female..... biologically they AREN'T. This is just so wrong...... :mad:

[susandrea]

I don't think the two issues--dresses to work and showering with women-- should have been lumped together. It's confusing the issues which are NOT NEARLY THE SAME THING.

It's pushing the envelope too quickly!

I would like to say to Tamara.... while I personally wouldn't mind sharing a restroom with a TS, I would be afraid of sex fiends taking advantage. On the other hand, in MANY parts of the world, whole families bath together without any though at all about gender. In China it's not at all unusual to see a whole family bathing outside, from grandma down to the toddler boy, buck nekkid and caring not a damn.

This is not just a gender issue, it's a Western social value under fire. The most important thing is to approach it calmly and without anger or fear. It's a tricky one to be sure, because there are plenty of jerks out there who would sneak through that shouldn't.

However, I believe that pre-op TS people who have started hormone therapy and are simply waiting for the sexual re-assignment (confirmation) regard their male organs as unwanted appendages anyway and see themselves as women, and therefore would be no more a threat to other women than a lesbian....or any other kind of woman.

The saddest thing about this article is the obvious confusion between "gender identity" issues and "homosexual" issues. And the fear both bring out in the "family values" groups. It reminds me of the letter from the mother of the gay boy that Julie Marie posted this morning--- maybe we should send it to them.

[CharleneCD]

I have to agree eith you Tamara. Shower sharing is pushing it more than a bit. While most guy( the perverts) would never think of dressing in womens to use the womens bathroom, showers might bring them out in force.

[Tamara Croft]

On the other hand, in MANY parts of the world, whole families bath together without any though at all about gender. In China it's not at all unusual to see a whole family bathing outside, from grandma down to the toddler boy, buck nekkid and caring not a damn.Well that's not exactly in the work place and with total strangers is it. I hardly think you can compare the two. The article didn't say they were TS...... post or pre op. It said and I quote 'men who believe they are women'. Now there is a difference. If it was a TS post op... then I would have no issues with that at all, but the story states 'MEN'. You have to see this from my point of view, I'm a woman and if my work place decided that 'men who believe they are women' could now legally shower with me, this to me would mean my privacy had been violated. I wouldn't stand for it, not now, not ever. :thumbsdn:

[Mx Justina]

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/aug/05081602.html

U.S. Court Says It’s Okay for Men to Come to Work in a Dress and to Shower with Female Co-Workers

HARRISBURG, Pennsylvania, August 16, 2005 (LifeSiteNews.com) – A Pennsylvania court has opened the door for men who believe they are women to come to work in a dress and to use the women’s restroom and shower facilities. The decision by the Commonwealth Court, which upheld a lower court ruling mandating that “sexual orientation” and “gender identity” be added to the Allentown (Pennsylvania) human relations ordinance, is being decried as an “outrage” by a traditional values group.

According to the American Family Association of Pennsylvania (AFA of PA), this is not something that the majority of citizens in Allentown want and is additional evidence of judicial activism, as state law does not extend this type of special protection to homosexuals.

Diane Gramley, president of the AFA of PA in a release stated, “Gone unreported in media stories today are the acts of intimidation and harassment on the part of homosexual activists while concerned citizens in Allentown attempted to circulate and/or sign petitions the summer of 2002 after the City Council effectively pushed the ordinance changes through in April of that year…These concerned citizens simply wanted an opportunity to place the matter before all the voters in Allentown to see if the city council-approved language was what the people really wanted. Homosexual activists knew that if the people had a chance to vote the ordinance changes would be removed. I believe the majority of Allentown citizens still oppose the ordinance.”

In May 2003, Teamsters Union Local 773 forced Carbon County to reinstate a transgender prison guard because of Allentown’s addition of “gender identity” to its human relations ordinance. “This was a message to all those who do business with companies and organizations based in Allentown: Your business dealings will be directly affected by the addition of ‘sexual orientation’ and ‘gender identity’ to Allentown’s Human Relations Ordinance,” the AFA release explained. “Does the Carbon County prison still have a man dressed as a woman guard? How many strip searches of female inmates has he conducted?”

“The Commonwealth court ruling said cities have broad latitude to take steps to protect the health, safety and welfare of their citizens,” Gramley stated. “Extending special protections to homosexuals will not accomplish either as according to the CDC, 2 out of 3 cases of AIDS are men who have sex with men, 1out of 5 male homosexuals are victims of same-sex domestic violence and those involved in homosexual activity are more prone to substance abuse, eating and psychological disorders. This is not the direction a city would want to take to protect its citizens.”

“’Gender Identity’ as defined in the ordinance opens all sorts of doors for radical transsexuals,” the AFA release continued. “Even openly homosexual Congressman Barney Frank opposes such language because he knows so-called ‘transgender’ activists will use that language to literally demand that men who believe they're women be allowed to use women's restrooms and showers.”

While stepping in the right direction, this article also highlights the vast ignorance many people--especially the "moral right"-- have concerning alternative sexuality (as you can see).

I read...and I feel like a cross between the Wicked Witch of the East and Tuco from The Good, The Bad and The Ugly... Tuco was the evil, mexican outlaw repeatedly just about to be publicly hanged, and muttering "yes, I'm guilty of everything!"

So, How do (I) the demonised, get un-demonised?????...

Edit Add-on: Showering with anyone...particularly strangers is not on my list of priorities...

J.

[ChristineRenee]

I totally agree with you Tamara...showering is really pushing the envelope too far. It would be open season for all the pervs that would take advantage of the situation. Definitely a bad idea....and like you said hon...just so wrong!:thumbsdn:

[Ibuki_Warpetal]

It would be funny to see all the guys in dresses trying to get to shower with chicks and turning down the ones who don't crossdress.

There should be an official person looker-atter-guy that would evaluate whether you are sincere about being TG like some kind of drill sargeant.

[susandrea]

Well that's not exactly in the work place and with total strangers is it. I hardly think you can compare the two. The article didn't say they were TS...... post or pre op. It said and I quote 'men who believe they are women'. Now there is a difference. If it was a TS post op... then I would have no issues with that at all, but the story states 'MEN'. You have to see this from my point of view, I'm a woman and if my work place decided that 'men who believe they are women' could now legally shower with me, this to me would mean my privacy had been violated. I wouldn't stand for it, not now, not ever. :thumbsdn:

You're right....here in the U.S. seeing a stranger's genitals (especially the opposite sex's) is a huge deal. (no pun intended!) But even in Europe it's not such a biggie. I remember going to a beach in Italy where NO ONE was wearing a suit, and if you did you struck out like a sore thumb--- so we ditched the suits, and our American shyness, and had fun joining in and experiencing a different way of being. I would say that many, if not most, Europeans see Americans as very Puritan in their regard toward the human body.

In many countries it isn't a big deal. As I said, the families bathing together in China can be seen by hundreds of strangers and they don't even think about it (in the big cities or in the country).

In other countries, the sexes are so divided that women and men can't even share the same public places at all (some Arab countries for example) and women must be covered at all times and accompanied by a male family member. They're not even allowed to speak to each other!

There is a new world on the horizon, and the advances in psychiatry and sexual re-orientation are mixing things up quite a bit. The thing we all have to do is, STAY CALM! There must be a whole lot to this issue that isn't covered in the article for it to even be discussed never mind put into law.

My reason for posting it wasn't about seeing some guy's privates in the shower, but because it's an issue of rights for TS people (it's GOT to be that, just sadly omitted by the reporter) and the fact that the "Family Values" crowd is so ignorant.

Remember how the unisex bathroom in Ally McBeal seemed so weird at first, then was no big deal at all by the time the show ended? That idea may be around the corner, perhaps not for totally public bathrooms, but for ones in protected businesses.

It is terribly sad that there is such a huge number of deviants that figure into the picture-- that alone is something that needs far more research than it's getting, or rights for everyone are going to be compromised.

[susandrea]

I totally agree with you Tamara...showering is really pushing the envelope too far. It would be open season for all the pervs that would take advantage of the situation. Definitely a bad idea....and like you said hon...just so wrong!:thumbsdn:

While I don't condone any kind of harmful sexual deviance, there was a time not too long ago (oops, it's still here) that crossdressers were (are) considered "pervs".

What we call "perverted" sexuality has only been touched on by reseachers and has a long, long way to go, but I firmly believe that most, if not all, of the people considered "pervs" suffer from mental illnesses and are in desperate need of help... serious help. It's one of the greatest sadnesses of our time that these people are so marginalized that they fear seeking help and/or are helpless to do so because of their illness.

I recently watched a documentary that examined the physical brain patterns of serial rapists/killers and it was discovered--and proven-- that ALL of the ones examined had a great deal of damage in the frontal lobes of their brains that altered their perception of reality and greatly limited their ability to feel compassion for others (most often caused by severe abuse suffered as a child, physical and/or emotional, that was never addressed).

Just tossing them in jail or frying them instead of studying them-- in order to find ways to discover such behavior when it's fixable and come up with ways to do so-- certainly ends up harming our society in the long run, because we'll simply create armies of such brain-damaged individuals who will commit irreversible damage before they're caught. Of course they need to be removed from society, but until we find out all the reasons it happens--and is happening at such an alarming rate---we'll never see the end of it. Fear and misunderstanding of this issue is probably the most serious one out there and it's going to be a long time before it's solved in any positive way.

[Helana]

I am sure President Bush is already working on a strategy to prevent any more of these legal outrages.... :rolleyes:

With regards to showering, if they were arranged in individual stalls then I would not see a big problem with this at all. We are talking about a work place here, not a public facility. Indeed individual stall should be standard anyway to stop lesbians enjoying themselves in the shower room. ;)

I think it is a little far-fetched to think a man would turn up at his workplace dressed as a woman just so that he can ogle women in the showers and risk losing his job. Then again my mind does not work that way. :confused:

[Tristen Cox]

Not going to sit here reading everything, not really necessary to someone who can tell right from wrong. Looks more like they're trying to use a negative against a positive. By combining the two if one goes so does the other. Clothes fine, acting feminine fine. Using the damn showers???? Not now not ever. I'm TS and I wouldn't dare violate someone's privacy like that, whether 'I think' I am or should be female or not.

Thinking is not a factor, you either are or you aren't. My 0.02? Use something unacceptable to get rid of something that could be. I look into the future of these kind of things and that's where I see it going if they push this showering shit.

And yes for once I agree with Tamara. That's twice this week. WTF is happening to me :confused: :p

[susandrea]

Not going to sit here reading everything, not really necessary to someone who can tell right from wrong. Looks more like they're trying to use a negative against a positive. By combining the two if one goes so does the other. Clothes fine, acting feminine fine. Using the damn showers???? Not now not ever. I'm TS and I wouldn't dare violate someone's privacy like that, whether 'I think' I am or should be female or not.

Thinking is not a factor, you either are or you aren't. My 0.02? Use something unacceptable to get rid of something that could be. I look into the future of these kind of things and that's where I see it going if they push this showering shit.

And yes for once I agree with Tamara. That's twice this week. WTF is happening to me :confused: :p

You know, the more I think about it the more I suspect that the author of this article deliberately slanted the focus of this issue on the shower aspect to create the exact kind of anger it's seeing even here of all places. Do you really think lawmakers in usually straight-laced Pennsylvania (where several schools have recently outlawed the teaching of evolution..hello?) would go ahead and pass a law that said any guy who just says he feels like a woman can shower with women? I doubt it. I betcha it's REALLY about TS people being accorded more rights as individuals.

If true, he did a pretty good job of it, don't you agree?

Any decent reporter with even only half a brain would have spotted the confusion of issues, not just the dresses-to-work/showering with the opposite sex, but ALSO the lumping together of TS people and gays.

The reporter intended to create fear and outrage and he succeeded.

[Tristen Cox]

The point I take to heart is 'think'. TS's come in all forms, but until they are diagnosed TS they can only say they 'think' they might be. Hell Sharon lives up their. So technically she could say "I think I'm a woman, and I'm using the woman's shower" Ever see a bunch of angry females protesting?

No knocking your article but I smell trouble brewing in this.

[Helana]

No knocking your article but I smell trouble brewing in this.

Viewing from outside, it appears this is all part and parcel of life in America. There always appears to be many of these types of battles going on all the time throughout the country as each state gets to legislate its own laws or the local courts get to interprete the law their own way. The whole thing looks very messy to me and like the recent gay marriage debacle it will probably end up hurting the TG community in America.

Susandrea is correct is saying that if this directive occured elsewhere such as Europe it would not create much fuss. There is a much higher degree of sensitivity in America seemingly fueled by the religious right. The more these issues get hyped, the greater the divide between liberals and conservatives which is bad for everybody.

I wonder when Fox News will get hold of this...... :rolleyes:

[Tristen Cox]

I wonder when Fox News will get hold of this...... :rolleyes:
Don't forget the National Enquirer ;)

[Darlene.]

Well ladies,

I wonder if anyone is interested in checking out the valitity of this article? Or does every one believe every thing they read with out questions?

Are (work place) rest rooms in your country designed with showers that accommodate multiple use?

Darlene.

[Helana]

I would like to know too. I am a developer and when I design office and factory buildings with showers they are in individual private stalls, so allowing transgendered men into the women's bathroom to shower becomes an irrelevant issue. I would have thought that would have been a standard setup in America too.

And even if the facility had common showers, it would normally be quite simple to adapt this into private stalls. I am quite sure everybody would appreciate the extra privacy, transgendered men or not.

I dont see this as a bad directive as long as appropriate steps are in place to protect individual privacy. Just don't know if this is a good time in America for such a step forward.

BTW what about general toilet use? Do the detractors think a TG man wearing a dress to work must also use the men's toilet?

The article comes from the American Family Association of Pennsylvania own website at http://www.afaofpa.org/news_release_allentown_court_decision_8.12.05.htm

Interestingly the last section was omited from the lifesite copy which reads

"The AFA of PA again outlines to the City Council of Allentown and now the Commonwealth Court the following observations included in a fax dated August 2, 2002.

q In many areas where such ordinances have been passed, the Boy Scouts and Salvation Army have been discriminated against.

q Council is putting its stamp of approval upon a lifestyle that, according to the Oxford University Journal of Epidemiology, shortens the lives of men who have sex with men by up to 20 years. The Centers for Disease Control recognizes that bisexuals are a proven "bridge" infecting women with HIV.

q Religious organization which received any city funds and employ four people would be required to hire practicing homosexuals. (Article 181, Section 02)

Only time will tell whether Allentown will become another ‘gay-friendly’ city like Philadelphia which currently ranks eighth in the nation in number of AIDS cases. Of course, all this will be with the approval of the court system in Pennsylvania."

Nothing like a good old homophobia. :rolleyes:

Other classic articles include;

7.1.05 -- Desecration of Independence Hall Completed Today --- "Gay" Historical Marker Unveiled!

June 29, 2005---- Representative Daryl Metcalfe Works to Stop Tax Dollars From Being Spend to Promote Homosexual Lifestyle

June 23, 2005 -- Southern Baptists Call for an Investigation of Schools that Promote Homosexuality

June 14, 2005 -- AFA of PA Joins Other Statewide Pro-family Groups in Urging Southern Baptist Convention to Move Resolution Forward to Protect Children from Homosexual Activism

and so on...and so on....

[susandrea]

well, BINGO!

I got up this morning and did a little research. This article is NOT AT ALL about "men who think they're women" showering with women, it is the same exact ordinance that has already been passed in 230 municipalities in the U.S. guaranteeing safety for TS individuals.

It WAS deliberatly slanted to cause outrage and we fell for it. Tsk, tsk! It goes to show you how powerful the media can be, how misleading, manipulative, ignorant, and fearful---and how it can cause misplaced anger that would lead us to us to take several steps backward, even if it's in our own best interest not to do so.

http://www.genderadvocates.org/News/Allentown.html

Crossdressers are included, and everyone should read this far more balanced description of what happened:

City protects gays, gender identity
Allentown's change in human relations law breaks ground in state.

By Bob Wittman
Of The Morning Call

April 4, 2002

Allentown City Council voted to amend the city's human relations ordinance Wednesday, adding sexual orientation and gender identity to the law's list of protected classes.

In doing so, Allentown became the 230th municipality in the country to extend employment, housing and other protections to people based on their sexual orientation.

It became the first city in Pennsylvania to add gender identity as a protected status in its human relations law.

Gender identity can refer to transsexuals or cross-dressers, but also men and women who simply appear opposite their sex.

The additions, which were supported by five of council's seven members, cover residents and people who work in the city or patronize its businesses.

Councilmen David K. Bausch and Louis J. Hershman voted against the legislation.

At the opening of discussion on the bill, council President David M. Howells Sr. read a letter from Mayor Roy C. Afflerbach urging council to approve the proposal and repeating his pledge to sign. Afflerbach was at Kutztown University for the visit of former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright.

From the start, there was little doubt the measure would pass. Introduced by Councilwoman Gail Hoover, the bill had four co-sponsors — more than enough votes for enactment.

But Hoover and members of the local chapter of the Pennsylvania Gay and Lesbian Alliance, the organization that orchestrated the standing-room-only crowd in support of the proposal, were intent on resisting efforts of councilmen Tom Burke and Martin Velazquez III to remove gender identity as its own protected class.

Although the changes Burke proposed would not have stricken gender identity entirely from the law, he would have covered it in the law's definition of sex. Hoover and others in the audience, including Human Relations Commission Chairwoman Janet Ney, argued that the distinctions among the terms ''sexual orientation,'' ''sex'' and ''gender identity'' would not be clear enough.

''It is a separate type of discrimination,'' said Elizabeth Bradbury, a leader of the Gay and Lesbian Alliance. ''I myself have been discriminated against on the basis of gender identity more frequently than I have been discriminated against on the basis of sexual orientation.''

That viewpoint prevailed. After nearly an hour of discussion and testimony from the audience, Burke agreed to settle for a precise definition and keep gender identity as a separate class.

''If we're going to use the term in the ordinance, then let's at least define it,'' he said.

Council also approved boosting the pay of Allentown's new police chief, Stephen L. Kuhn, to $90,000 a year from the budgeted amount of $75,822.

bob.wittman@mcall.com

[Ibuki_Warpetal]

So people are realizing gender != sex.

[geegee2]

That I can agree with.... but showering????? sorry but I don't agree with that at all.
So..... what door will this have opened then hmm??? just how many men are going to start dressing and claiming they believe they are women just so they can start showering with women.... this has got to be the most retarded thing I've ever read. It's a bloody outrage..... I don't agree with it..... :thumbsdn: :mad: :thumbsdn:
I agree that men can wear dresses but showering lets get real that will cause an awful lot of trouble,I love to get dressed in girly clothes but unless Im in a relationship with a gg, showering is not an option,luv;kisses;hugs GEEGEE2 :love: