The "pink" dilemma (FTM ONLY)

[Ze]

Gentlemen, what do you think of the dilemma regarding us and the concept of the color pink as a symbol for the gay community? At first I thought this might only concern those of us here attracted to men, but then I realized we're all somewhat involved, seeing as how the loose (yes, I argue "loose") inclusion of transfolk in the LGB community makes us somewhat a part of this pink symbolism. I personally have a problem with this pink culture, seeing as how it was forced down my throat my whole life in parallel manners.

I had always considered the pink-as-gay-symbol to be on its way out and replaced with the rainbow (which I have no problems with and believe it better symbolizes the diversity), but apparently I've thought wrong. I just finished reading a publication talking about LGBT-friendly (and, therefore, outrageously expensive) airplane flights to X vacation spots that blatantly boast and aim for gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender people to feel safe and welcome (and have fun) during their flight. How do they do it? Everything is decked out in pink. Pink and feminine. Name it, it's in pink, right down to the drinks and goodie bags. Drag queens are the hostesses and "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert" is usually the in-flight movie of choice. Even the airplane itself is fitted with gigantic fake "eyelashes" and it's all called the Pink Flight. You get the picture.

This really, truly bothers me. In essence, LGBT culture would appear to reject transmen due to its obsession with pink culture. (Yes, the word "pink" is added to any term when referring to LGBT-based market, regardless of any physical coloring involved; "pink consumerism," "pink neighborhoods," "pink flight," etc.) When something boasts to be LGBT-friendly, usually the T is foregone to the background unless otherwise specified. And when it is specified, inclusion is usually only meant for MtFs; FtMs only know they're included if it's further otherwise specified. In other words, we've all learned the hard way to never assume inclusion, even in the "friendliest" of places. (I wouldn't be surprised if our butch lesbian sisters feel their own sort of rejection regarding this problem.)

And even more than the terrorism of pink in my youth, I think this exclusion is what bothers me most about the usage of the color. The question for me remains whether this is accidental or if we're just plain not welcome.

[Kieron Andrew]

Never saw myself as part of the pink brigade...This (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/2b/20060724092219!A_TransGender-Symbol_Plain3.png) i consider to be the trans colours (lilac(lavender)/purple) not Pink, therefore i don't consider us a part of the pink pound (as we call it in the UK). LGB is to do with sexuality expression, trans is gender expression, nothing to do with each other at all...

[WalT]

Lavender, in my mind, is what I associate with LGBT, not pink. Not saying I'm representative, but I've heard "pink" in reference to gay only a few times ("pink money"), but lavender far more often (such as lavender linguistics, lavender scare, etc.).

[Ze]

But that's exactly my point. The universal gay man's color (poor lesbians somehow get caught up in this, too; yay ironic patriarchy) is dominating all Others, regardless of whether or not they're related. What's up with that? If they don't want trannies around, then they should just go ahead and say it; not play this stupid game. If LGBT usually doesn't care about the T, then there should be no reason to have tagged it on to begin with. And yes, orientation and gender are two totally different things, so I still can't understand why they were attached together into one community to begin with.

[4serrus]

It's just companies pandering to the rich white gay men who make up the bulk of the stereotype. Screw that mess.

[Thornton]

I believe T is attached to LGB because they both share a love for a gender; either the only gender you can be with (LGB), or the only gender you can be (T). We also share the process of coming out, and share similar social and religious discrimination once our identities are found out. To add, LGB people also break gender expectations (granted, in a completely different way than we do, but still)

This is a question I've thought about for a while, and those are the only similarities I could come up with. It may not be much, but I think it's enough to group us closely. And, when the rest of the queer community doesn't forget that T exists (especially the FTM part), I actually like being in it. I'm a straight man, but I actually like claiming the rainbow flag as my own.

To get to the original question (sorry, Ze), I really don't see pink as applying to the gay community all that much anymore. In fact, when I think pink, I think either Breast Cancer Awareness, or Victoria's Secret. I would have said the rainbow has sufficiently substituted the pink by now, but your example of the "LGBT friendly" flight stops me.

I really don't know why pink is still associated with LGBT. I mean, it can be assumed to be rejected by enough of the community (FTMs and butch lesbians). That, and LGBT does not equal "flamboyant". You'd think anything considered LGBT friendly would recognize that were not all stereotypical "flaming homos".

Maybe the pink is kept because of those who want to convert the pink triangle into a symbol of pride, like with the word "queer". And I can understand and respect that. I just don't like when the results of that effort are misunderstood or abused.

[WalT]

Thornton pretty much summed up my thoughts on this subject. :thumbsup:

[Leo Lane]

it's just companies pandering to the rich white gay men who make up the bulk of the stereotype. Screw that mess.

Word.

[NiCo]

Pink reminds me also of breast cancer awareness (which in itself is a stereotype - men get breast cancer too. I know about that all too well with my family). To be honest the only thing which reminds me of the LGBT is the rainbow. I'm not too involved with the scene nor care too much to notice otherwise. The more i'm away from lesbians and trannies the better because i've personally had too many bad experiences. Even with gays, and i am a gay guy, too much BS TBH.

I don't really mind about feeling included, no skin off my nose.

The only thing that matters to me in regards to the LGBT scene is the friends i've made through the contacts. I don't really care about what colours they use or symbols to represent, but i do agree with you Ze when you say they should just state if they don't want trans peeps in the LGBT. A lot don't even like being involved because LGB is sexuality whereas most cases of T is gender and they don't like their gender being confused with sexuality. I know for sure i don't want that - my gender has FA to do with sexual fetish or sexual preferance. Init.

[WalT]

A lot don't even like being involved because LGB is sexuality whereas most cases of T is gender and they don't like their gender being confused with sexuality.I was under the impression that was because LGB generally wants little to do with us unless they need supporters for their own selective interests, i.e. they only care about T if they can use them as instruments in their causes. I'd go as far to say B isn't very welcome either.

We are connected by the fact we suffer similar patterns of subordination, we both screw up notions about gender (lesbigay subverts notions that men and women are "meant for one another"; many are also gender variant in other ways), and that our coming out processes are very similar.

[Thornton]

I'd go as far to say B isn't very welcome either.

Yeah, B isn't taken all that seriously. Bi women are thought to be straight "hot" women who may just be with another woman until the right man comes along. Bi men aren't even thought to exist.

Pansexuals kind of get the short end of the stick too, not being included in the acronym, being confused with bisexuals (who aren't thought to exist anyway).

[Ze]

I'd go as far to say B isn't very welcome either.

Agreed.

And, as always, Thorny said it better than me.

[NiCo]

Must be different depending on the country. I've never heard of bi being taken less serious than lesbian or gay...imo. Saying that, i don't pay loads of attention to anything in the LGBT so maybe it's just me thinking that. Hey ho.

Then again is it safe to say that the UK is a lot more open minded/ or accepting than the US? Cause to me it seems like it is.

[Shawn]

Gentlemen, what do you think of the dilemma regarding us and the concept of the color pink as a symbol for the gay community?
And even more than the terrorism of pink in my youth, I think this exclusion is what bothers me most about the usage of the color. The question for me remains whether this is accidental or if we're just plain not welcome.
I believe it was the Nazi's that gave gay people the pink triangle. I think it became a "take back the night and make it your own" sort of thing. We just got included when the umbrella got bigger.
Here in the USA, you never know if the "rainbow" means LGBT or born-again christian. Personally, (sorry if I offend anyone) I'd rather be umbrellad (sp?)with the gay people.


. And yes, orientation and gender are two totally different things, so I still can't understand why they were attached together into one community to begin with.
We share a common ground in that many of us are treated as less than human. We are all fighting for basic human rights and the larger the group, the louder the voice.:Peace:

[Lonely_Lion]

I think purple works better than pink. because, (I'm no art expert) aren't blue and red opposites? purple is the mix of thos two. So in a sense, it's not Black and white, but a shade of gray. IDK, I'm being too complicated.

[alpha12]

I associate pink with campaigns for breast cancer awareness and the relentless marketing built on that so-called cause. Yeah, my uncle had breast cancer. Not a fan of the pink thing there. And I'm a runner who enjoys racing, so there is always pressure to run for some cancer or other.

I'm working on a research project on a glbtq issue and haven't come across many pink references. I prefer the rainbow. Rainbow as a Christian thing doesn't seem big around here.

[Bones]

Pink as a "gay" or "feminine" symbol is odd for me, because pink used to be exclusively the boy color, blue the girl color. This switched sometime in the 40's, I believe.

Also, I personally have no problem with pink. I have a really nice pink button down... blouse. I mean, it's pretty damn feminine and screams "gay." But it also screams, "Wow this guy thinks it's still the 70's." Which is why I love it.

I feel FtMs are not as invisible as we used to be. Thomas Beatie and Chaz Bono have given us some publicity, although with Beatie he actually just confused the public in a very big way because his decision was a bit atypical. :doh:

I do not feel pink is pushing trans men out... and I also don't understand people who hate any color. Especially a warm and pleasant color like pink. :JoanMerrie: