Is there such thing as a FtM CDER ?

[Sheila]

I have been having a discussion via PM with someone who claims there isnt such thing as a F2M CDER,. I on the other hand maintain there are F2M CDER's
So come on you guys, am I right or am I right :heehee::heehee:

[Kieron Andrew]

I have been having a discussion via PM with someone who claims there isnt such thing as a F2M CDER,. I on the other hand maintain there are F2M CDER's
So come on you guys, am I right or am I right :heehee::heehee:

You are right...

We have a few guys on the board that when dressed male they indentify as a FtM CDer ie male for the time and moment, but when dressed female ID as female, if there is MtF CDers then they has to be the opposite!...oh and before anyone says, 'that is just a tomboy'...that is TOTALLY different! Tomboys still ID as female

[Ze]

:yt:

They're just very rare. And for what it's worth, Sheila, some medical texts still argue that FtM TGs don't exist at all, either. ;)

[Kieron Andrew]

And for what it's worth, Sheila, some medical texts still argue that FtM TGs don't exist at all, either. ;)
I'd like to chat to those who write those medical texts :heehee:

[Ze]

I'd like to chat to those who write those medical texts :heehee:

They'll probably just look at you and say, "There's more gravy than there is grave about you!" :elaugh:

[BRANDYJ]

I often wondered the same thing. About the closest I've come to knowing a female crossdresser is the daughter of a very good GG friend of mine. Her daughter was once married, had a child, and now is totally lesbian. However, she does drag shows as a guy. But when I had the pleasure of meeting her, she looked and acted just like any other GG and no one would ever suspect she could dress and act male very well. I have seen many pictures of her dressed as a male. But other then her, I have never known of other GG's that are strictly crossdressers

[Sheila]

Thanks guys, :DI am glad I wasn't wrong again !!!! :heehee::heehee::D:D

[Marshchild]

:yt:

They're just very rare.

I wonder why that is. Any theories, anyone?

[Sheila]

:yt:
Sheila, some medical texts still argue that FtM TGs don't exist at all, either. ;)

well I worked in the medical field :Ze: and I know how wrong they can be :heehee::heehee:

[Schatten Lupus]

I have talked to a few GG's at other forums (non-cd/tg related) who love dressing in males clothing for the purpose of being seen as a male by others.

[Ze]

I wonder why that is. Any theories, anyone?

It comes down to how one identifies. A good example is very butch lesbians--the kind you tend to mistake for men by appearances alone. They dress in men's clothes and pass as men (and sometimes even prefer male pronouns), yet are neither cross-dressers nor transmen because they don't identify as such. Rather, they still identify as women, hence the "lesbian" part.

A bit like how transwomen (or transmen) aren't cross-dressers because of how they identify and what that identification constitutes. :)

[Sheila]

It comes down to how one identifies. A good example is very butch lesbians--the kind you tend to mistake for men by appearances alone. They dress in men's clothes and pass as men (and sometimes even prefer male pronouns), yet are neither cross-dressers nor transmen because they don't identify as such. Rather, they still identify as women, hence the "lesbian" part.

A bit like how transwomen (or transmen) aren't cross-dressers because of how they identify and what that identification constitutes. :)

But surely Ze, it is not just butch lesbians who dress and pass in male clothes,and prefer male pronouns ......... sorry but that almost sound like stereo typing from where I am sitting ..... (goes and sits somewhere else to look :D)

I am sure that there are F2M CDER's who, because of how society view dress code have an easier time of dressing in mainstream e.g. when doing the top & tails bit, it being seen as cute :brolleyes:(not that I am sure they appreciate that patronizing view, by society, whereas a male in a dress is seen (as we are led to :brolleyes:) as weird :brolleyes: and jeans and a top/t-shirt/shirt are seen as norm for GG's to wear

I mean if you read M2F you are aware that we as GG's are seen by society to dress less than ladylike, in fact mannish, so surely it then makes it easier for the F2M CDER to "PASS" on a daily basis, (short spiked hair being a fairly common look on GG's), I seriously am not trying to make light of the seriousness or dedication of F2M TS, ..... that is an entirely different ball game (pardon the pun) ..... but on a daily basis will it not lead to less angst for F2M CDER with their daily passability not in question, when dressing as male, hence perhaps why so many of them do not appear on CD.Com looking for support in the numbers that M2F's do ?

[Ze]

Of course not, Sheila. That's why I said they were an example. ;) As for the patronizing, I think I can safely say that the bulk of us get that, FtM CD or not. The patronizing becomes a whole lot more dangerous the more the patronizer sees the individual isn't trying to be "cute." So that's where a lot of the trouble starts.

I can't really vouch for the "passability" of FtM CDs either way, but if they're trying to go the whole nine yards with it, I don't see how their general public experiences would differ much than ours (TGs). It's unfortunate.

But when it comes down to a "pants/t-shirt" debate, we must always remember that there's a big difference between wearing men's pants/t-shirts and women's/t-shirts pants. Sure, women can wear pants/t-shirts now (hell, they fought for that right!), but they're still women's pants/t-shirts, and hence are pants/t-shirts reconstructed so that they are permissible for women to wear.

We can also get into the lounge wear vs formal attire debate, but I'm getting tired again. :sad:

[Fab Karen]

It wasn't that long ago in relative terms that women wearing pants was considered just as "wierd" as a male person in a dress. It wasn't always taken as "being cute." For example people were shocked to see Marlene Dietrich wearing "a man's suit."

[Ze]

For example people were shocked to see Marlene Dietrich wearing "a man's suit."

Well, going back to my scant lounge vs formal point, I'd argue that's still very much a problem. If I go around in a men's t-shirt, not as many weird looks, but look out when I feel like a button-down and a casual tie. :rolleyes: I did this once at my college and the feedback I received was so bad that I never did it again.

Sure, I've noticed a few famous women rarely donning a man's suit or whatnot for magazines, but that's a huge entertainment factor there. Put that same person in general public and we have a problem.

[Fab Karen]

It's sadly probably still taken as very wierd in some areas of the country, but it's true even in a world reknown area like where I live it would still be rare to see a woman dressed that way ( there are feminized versions, such as Hillary Clinton wears, which is a different category ), so I see what you're saying.
In Marlene's case people were doubly shocked, also because "she's not wearing a dress/skirt."

[Thornton]

I'm always surprised to hear this, because I see girls crossdress all the time in my hometown. Are they drag kings? No. But they do crossdress. I don't know if they're lesbians or tomboys or what, but, no one really seems to care. Men's clothing tend to be more comfortable/practical than women's, I always assumed that's why those women wore them all the time.

[WalT]

I see a lot of girls wearing pants but most of the girls I see out actually crossdressing (i.e. actually wearing men's clothing) are either the gamer girl sort, the occasional metalhead or two, or, well, lesbians.

[sherri52]

Your right Shiela. I was asked that very question today. Ftm Cd's do exist but the percentage of them transitioning is much greater than that of the Mtf Cd's

[Ze]

I'm always surprised to hear this, because I see girls crossdress all the time in my hometown. Are they drag kings? No. But they do crossdress. I don't know if they're lesbians or tomboys or what, but, no one really seems to care. Men's clothing tend to be more comfortable/practical than women's, I always assumed that's why those women wore them all the time.

*shakes you* How many times do I have to tell you this, Thorny? You live in Mass-a-choo-sits! Your state doesn't count! :tongueout

God I can't wait until I've moved up there. :heehee:

[Thornton]

Hey! We have our fair share of problems! Like...um...:thinking: hmmm...

[Satrana]

We have a few guys on the board that when dressed male they indentify as a FtM CDer ie male for the time and moment, but when dressed female ID as female, if there is MtF CDers then they has to be the opposite! This is not a correct definition of CDs. There are many MTF CDs who do not ID as female when crossdressed - I am one of them.


Tomboys still ID as female Not true, there was a tomboy who lived in my street during my childhood who wanted everyone to call her Scott. Later in her teens she dropped the tomboy behavior and conformed as a normal girl.

I am puzzled why there are apparently no forums anywhere for FTM CDers? Even if they do not operate with the stress and stigmas that other TGs cope with, they would still recognize they were different and want to get in contact with others. In this age where every conceivable behavior and pastime is represented on the web where are the FTM CDer sites? I have spent 30 minutes scouring the web and have only come across references to drag kings and lesbians. This is very puzzling when you consider that MTF CDs probably account for about 5% of the male population.

Maybe FTM CDers do not identify with the term crossdresser thinking that only applies to men and they use a different term altogether? Maybe they label themselves tomboys even if members here think that is incorrect?

The there is this from www.glbtq.com " Women who Cross-Dress generally do so for reasons quite different from those that motivate men to cross-dress."

[Sheila]

This is not a correct definition of CDs. There are many MTF CDs who do not ID as female when crossdressed - I am one of them.

Kieron did not say ALL he said
if there is MtF CDers then they has to be the opposite!

[PetiteDuality]

It's funny to see how many people thinks that a tomboy is probably a lesbian, while there are many threads in this site emphasizing the "I'm a CD but not gay at all"

[Deborah Jane]

I am puzzled why there are apparently no forums anywhere for FTM CDers?

There are, the forum you are on now is as much for FTM CDers as it is for MTF CDers.
We all share many similarities on our journeys and the ways in which we all deal with them.

I agree, many of us do crossdress for differant reasons, but at the end of the day, we are all still very similar in differant ways.

[Sheila]

It's funny to see how many people thinks that a tomboy is probably a lesbian, while there are many threads in this site emphasizing the "I'm a CD but not gay at all"

Yup I noticed that.... good old double standards you gotta love em :brolleyes:

[Satrana]

There are, the forum you are on now is as much for FTM CDers as it is for MTF CDers.
We all share many similarities on our journeys and the ways in which we all deal with them.


I am aware the site is open to all. But my question still remains if you google female crossdressers and exclude references to drag kings and butch lesbians then you basically come up with zip all for FTM CDs in stark contrast to the millions of hits for MTF CDs.

The only plausible explanation to me is that females with mild TG expressions choose the socially acceptable tomboy label and consider themselves to be normal and mainstream. Only those with more profound gender dysphoria recognize tomboy is not applicable and come to a TG site like this.

Make sense?

[tamarav]

I have actually had 3 very active FtM clients in the past 5 years. All three are good looking women that simply like to CD. One I helped with false facial hair and a crew cut wig, suit and men's shoes and we went dancing at a local casino. Damnned if she didn't hit on a couple of women at the casino. Her husband laughs at her and me. Think about that one..

[Andy66]

The definition of "crossdresser" is starting to sound pretty subjective. Is it how a person identifies (male or female), or wants to be seen by the public? Could be, but not all MtF crossdressers identify or want to be seen as female when dressed, so maybe some FtM crossdressers don't either. Is it the mere fact of which section of the store you got your clothes? Not always, because tomboys aren't necessarily considered crossdressers. Apparently neither are Emo boys who sometimes wear girl's clothes in a boyish way.
Is it who they prefer to date? I think we've established here that Transmen, Transwomen, and MtF crossdressers don't necessarily have to fall into the gay/lesbian, straight or bi category.

In my personal experience... I've been wearing some, but not all male clothes for as long as I can remember, usually mixing them. Men's pants, women's top; or women's pants, men's shirt. The tomboy and crossdresser labels both technically fit me, but I don't completely identify as either. Gender-wise, I'm somewhere in the middle, and flexible according to my mood at the moment - sometimes feeling more masculine and sometimes more feminine. So what the heck am I? I suppose I'm neither here nor there; all and nothing at all. :strugglin: The only time I feel like a crossdresser is when I dress very masculine.

[Ze]

The definition of "crossdresser" is starting to sound pretty subjective.

Which brings us back to square 1. :D

[Toni_Lynn]

I have to take a deep breath and count to 10 before I reply to this thread. I probably won't say much as a part of my reply, apart from that I consider it an extreme prejudice and disrespect to our FTM brothers all along the spectrum (from CD to TG) to even consider that there is no such things as an FTM CDer. As an MTF CDer it insults even me, because I know how I would feel if I went to a 'group', be it on-line or not, and had my very existence questioned.

Stop to think about it -- maybe the reason that we hear so little of FTM CDers is because CDing takes on the era of, and I shudder to use the term, a boys club house complete with a sign that says NO GIRLS ALLOWED. There is room enough under the CDing sky for all. As MTFs we don't own the trademark.

That said, I have known at least 2 FTM CDers personally in my life time. I have come across many more on the web.

Personally, I wish that more GGs would try CDing. As a 'hobby' its too much fun not to share. And that, is why, while my wife doesn't CD the whole way, she does do men's undies as a part of our romantic play. And she says its a blast!

Side note: Apologies if I said anything offensive to my MTF brothers. I admire you guys so much for your courage in being yourself.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[Niya W]

yes, i've seen two. Right down to the drawn on mustache , or fake mustache ,

[Ze]

Wonderful reply, Toni-Lynn, thank you. :love:

[Satrana]

The definition of "crossdresser" is starting to sound pretty subjective.

I agree and it is not only the crossdresser label that is subjective but most likely also the label tomboy as well. May I ask you a question Anne - as a GG who perhaps has "mild" transgendered feelings, if you were not part of the TG culture, if you did not have a CD partner and so never visited sites like this - would you ever used the term crossdresser for yourself or would you have simply used the term tomboy as a label that was familiar and acceptable to you?

You see there is a huge mismatch in the two sides and I see no reason for this to exist. For males there are tens of millions of CDs and a small number of full time transgenderists/transsexuals. On the female side there are tens of millions of tomboys, hardly any crossdressers and small number of full time transgenderists/transsexuals. This glaring discrepancy disappears when you merge the tomboys and FTM CDs together into one.

But this causes a huge problem. Mainstream GG culture has women living a form of TG lifestyle and so many non-TG women think of themselves as being a bit of a tomboy. As a result most tomboys are not TG and those who are do not use what we may feel is a more accurate label for them -crossdresser. After all it is human nature not to want to be different from others and have a stigmatized label attached to you. Given the choice wouldn't anyone choose the safe option?

I am not sure why some people are sensitive about discussing this. It is not about claiming that GGs with TG feelings do not exist but rather that the evidence suggests that very few of them consider themselves to be TG and are most likely unaware and not interested in the TG community and our desire for clearly defined labels.

Rather it appears they consider themselves to be normal, mainstream and shame-free and happily living their lives. Good for them.

[Andy66]

as a GG who perhaps has "mild" transgendered feelings, if you were not part of the TG culture, if you did not have a CD partner and so never visited sites like this - would you ever used the term crossdresser for yourself or would you have simply used the term tomboy as a label that was familiar and acceptable to you?
Very good, Satrana. I see what you're getting at. You're assuming a lot of things about me, but I think you're on the right track.

I have learned a lot about all of you on this website, and about myself. I usually either use the term tomboy or something to the effect of "that's my lesbian side." It's just easier to understand and more socially acceptable, even if it doesn't tell the whole story. It never crossed my mind that wearing men's clothes was crossdressing until I started reading all the posts by MtFs about how unfair they feel the clothing situation is. Then it occurred to me, what I do is technically crossdressing, even if it's not usually considered as such.

That's just me though. I suspect that if you tried to call most tomboys crossdressers, they would not identify as that, and might :slap: you with their purse... or their tool belt. :heehee:

[Violetgray]

Nope. FtM crossdressers couldn't possibly exist!

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o235/Silverjester/cancan.jpg

[Felix]

Hi Sheila and yeah you are right like the guys here said. I agree with Debs though there are many parallels if we take the time to look myself and Helen have found many since we have been sharing our lives :) xx Felix:hugs:

[Sheila]

Thanks to all who have so far replied, I was willing to be proved wrong, honest I was, but I just could not get my head round the fact that if M2F's cross dressed, then F2M's wouldn't or couldn't do the same.

However I must admit to being puzzled by the lack of F2M's looking for support from a site such as this ........... I do have a theory as to why they don't appear here, but that one I will keep to myself for fear of stirring a hornets nest up :straightface:

[victoriamwilliams1]

I was wondering the same thing:) I like the responses:) I think it would be cool to hang out with a F2M CD

[Ze]

I do have a theory as to why they don't appear here, but that one I will keep to myself for fear of stirring a hornets nest up :straightface:

I think we're on the same page with it, too.

Buzzzzz...

[Sheila]

Buzzzzz...

******SWAT****** ooopppppsssssss sorry :Ze: didn't see you there :heehee::heehee:

[KarenCDFL]

It wasn't that long ago in relative terms that women wearing pants was considered just as "wierd" as a male person in a dress. It wasn't always taken as "being cute." For example people were shocked to see Marlene Dietrich wearing "a man's suit."

HI Karen,

I remember back in the late 1960's in elementary school that the rule was all girls had to wear a skirt or a dress and pants were not allowed.

I remember my female teacher at the time saying in class that "The day that I wear pants, all of the girls can"

[Bones]

Yes, occasionally I will slip into a dress. If that's what you mean by "FtM cross dresser."

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt174/syndactyly01/ohwow.jpg

It is a guilty pleasure, and I don't indulge in it often because I don't want my family and friends to be under the impression that I'm "confused" about my gender identity. They already think I'm doing this for all the wrong reasons... :hmph:

I do not consider dressing as a man "cross dressing." That for me is wearing clothes appropriate for my gender. Wearing girl's clothes is cross dressing for me.

[Sheila]

Bones :slap: no that is not what I meant :rasp:. ........... ow I can see you are gonna be trouble ............. am gonna keep a close eye on you young man :heehee::heehee::daydreaming::daydreaming:


Not bad, you have bee here all of 5 mins and already you been Tamarad .......... even if it is only by me :devil::devil::devil:

[Bones]

Oh? I hope I didn't make a boo-boo. :bonk: It sounds like maybe I did.

Edit: OH NOW I THINK I GET IT.
FtM CDer as in drag kings!

I thought you meant FtMs who cross dressed.

[Sheila]

no bones you didn't ............ my weird way of thinking and humour sometimes does not cross the water well :eek:

Because there are as we all know M2F CDER's I made the assumption that there would be F2M CDERs as well, who liked to dress either on a reg basis or occasionally just like the M2F ................. somebody did not quite agree with my way of think so I thought I would come and ask the folks who would surely have a clue you guys

F2M as in Females who like/need to dress as guys on occasions for whatever reasons

:hugs: ya and I don't offend easily ........... I tend to be the doer :devil::devil::devil:

[Bones]

Yeah. FtM in my mind for some reason always means, "Trans man! Transsexual! Male-identified!" etc. I need to expand my mind a bit. :doh:

[Thornton]

I thought you meant FtMs who cross dressed.

:doh: that made my brain hurt...

[Ze]

:doh: that made my brain hurt...

Y'all are thinking too hard. :tongueout

[Sheila]

Y'all are thinking too hard. :tongueout

He is right, I am a simple soul with very simple thoughts :D:D

[Fab Karen]

:doh: that made my brain hurt...
Rent "Victor/Victoria" your brain might stop hurting. Or maybe not. :)



Y'all are thinking too hard. :tongueout
If you keep saying "y'all" after you move to Bastin, you'll get funny looks. Oh, and start throwing "wicked pissah!" Into your sentences.:D

[Sally24]

In the Boston area I've run into one true FTM CD (not a drag king). In this pic, at Pride 2007, he is in the only skirtlike thing he ever wears a kilt. Normally he wears very formal or period clothing, otherwise he would be taken as a androgn wearing pants.
113701

Steel and Sally

[Andy66]

Just thought I'd throw this out there: I'm planning on going out for a drink with a MtF CD (just friends, so I don't want to hear any crazy rumors). I will be dressed all boy, as oppposed to my usual mixed boy/girl look. Hopefully she will be brave enough to dress all girl. So yeah, I think, therefore I am, as they say.

[Kid Flash]

Hello? XD

I just recently introduced myself in the new members subforum, and even though I haven't bought a chest binder or gone out in public yet, someday I will. It does honestly feel a little strange on this site, it's called Crossdressers but I haven't seen any threads with FtM crossdressing yet and here I wanted tips. A lot of cute trans guys, but I'm definitely not going to be taking testosterone or anything like that.

I guess you can say I'm an aspiring crossdresser, but yes, I exist.

[Sheila]

KF, the guys will have loads of great tips n tricks for you :), they are an amazingly friendly,& informative bunch :)

[alpha12]

Well, my well-thought-out post just got eaten again.

My own fault, too cowardly to click the box to stay logged in.

To sum up: Perhaps people don't see ftm CD-ers because there is no recognized culture of ftm CR-ers. If I (someone who looks like a woman) wears man's clothing, I'm either

1) lazy/sloppy/casual--the jeans/t-shirt thing

or

2) "Cute" in "menswear" Blech. I hate the idea that people see me as dressing up, or that when a woman dresses in man's clothes it's likely to gratify someone else--to be cute rather than to express hirself.

or

3) a butch lesbian.

I'm not sure to what degree I'm ftm, but I don't often wear a full suit of men's clothes in large part because I don't like any of those three boxes that I tend to feel stuffed into when I try.

There is no widespread culture of ftm cross-dressers. Perhaps because when women cross-dress, they tend to get shoved into other categories, whether they will it or no.

[Bones]

Before I was "FtM," (or knew it anyway), I considered myself a cross dresser. In my senior year of high school, I went to prom wearing a full suit. This was shortly after I admitted to myself that I was transgender. Oddly enough, no one thought I was "cute" and no one thought I was a lesbian either. People-- my peers in high school-- were saying I was handsome. Mind you, I did not come out as trans at school yet. I was out to a few friends and family a couple months before that and I doubt the whole class found out before prom. No... they somehow innately understood that I was not "just a lesbian." They figured out I was a guy even after knowing me as a girl for 4+ years. Some of them knew me as a girl since 6th grade and they still totally understood me that night. It was a magical night.

[Ze]

Rent "Victor/Victoria" your brain might stop hurting. Or maybe not. :)

I had eye orgasms throughout that entire movie. God she's hot...


If you keep saying "y'all" after you move to Bastin, you'll get funny looks. Oh, and start throwing "wicked pissah!" Into your sentences.:D

Oi, don't censor me! :tongueout Does this mean I shouldn't wear my cowboy hat, either?


Just thought I'd throw this out there: I'm planning on going out for a drink with a MtF CD (just friends, so I don't want to hear any crazy rumors).

Anne and a lady sittin' in a tree. K-I-S-S-I-N-G! :playnice:


Hello? XD

I just recently introduced myself in the new members subforum, and even though I haven't bought a chest binder or gone out in public yet, someday I will. It does honestly feel a little strange on this site, it's called Crossdressers but I haven't seen any threads with FtM crossdressing yet and here I wanted tips. A lot of cute trans guys, but I'm definitely not going to be taking testosterone or anything like that.

I guess you can say I'm an aspiring crossdresser, but yes, I exist.

We have few self-identified FtM CDers here, but I hope that doesn't discourage you. :) You seem really cool so far, so I hope you stick around!


Well, my well-thought-out post just got eaten again.

My own fault, too cowardly to click the box to stay logged in.

:slap:


To sum up: Perhaps people don't see ftm CD-ers because there is no recognized culture of ftm CR-ers. If I (someone who looks like a woman) wears man's clothing, I'm either

1) lazy/sloppy/casual--the jeans/t-shirt thing

or

2) "Cute" in "menswear" Blech. I hate the idea that people see me as dressing up, or that when a woman dresses in man's clothes it's likely to gratify someone else--to be cute rather than to express hirself.

or

3) a butch lesbian.

I'm not sure to what degree I'm ftm, but I don't often wear a full suit of men's clothes in large part because I don't like any of those three boxes that I tend to feel stuffed into when I try.

There is no widespread culture of ftm cross-dressers. Perhaps because when women cross-dress, they tend to get shoved into other categories, whether they will it or no.

Hear hear. :D

[Thornton]

If you keep saying "y'all" after you move to Bastin, you'll get funny looks. Oh, and start throwing "wicked pissah!" Into your sentences.:D

nah, you can say "y'all", you just gotta say it with a Bostonian accent...if that makes any sense

[Ze]

Go Saax, y'all.

[Kid Flash]

We have few self-identified FtM CDers here, but I hope that doesn't discourage you. :) You seem really cool so far, so I hope you stick around!


Thank you, I can say the same about you. I'm definitely going to stick around here, you guys can even address me by "he" like the MtF crossdressers go by "she". I look forward to getting to know everyone. =)

[Fab Karen]

nah, you can say "y'all", you just gotta say it with a Bostonian accent...if that makes any sense
So something like,"I'm just gonna go pahk the cah, yeahl":)

[Thornton]

Go Saax, y'all.


So something like,"I'm just gonna go pahk the cah, yeahl":)

:facepalm: ok....you can say "y'all" with a Bostonian accent...but where you place the "y'all" in your sentence still has to make sense! Like, "Where y'all goin'?" or, "I'll catch up wit y'all later." or something of the like...

We really don't all sound like the Kennedys...

[Ze]

Thank you, I can say the same about you. I'm definitely going to stick around here, you guys can even address me by "he" like the MtF crossdressers go by "she". I look forward to getting to know everyone. =)

Dude, we were going to do that, anyway. :D


We really don't all sound like the Kennedys...

Er, ah, yah don't? :tongueout

[juno]

I am a beginner MTF CDer. I think that MTF is more common simply because women's clothing has a huge variety compared to men's clothes, plus the variety of makeup choices. The whole process of dressing in women's clothes can provide a lot of entertainment. In comparison, dressing in men's clothes and no artistic makeup is rather limited.

So, my guess is that FTM CDers do it mainly to present a male identity, whereas many MTF CDers enjoy the fun of "playing dress-up".

Another aspect is that women can wear moderately masculine clothes, and they go unnoticed. Maybe there are really a lot of moderate FTM CDers that are just not getting counted.

[DonniDarkness]

This has been a great thread, i would like to add something, i don't think i saw it posted previously.

Now i dont want anyone to read too deep into this, because my opinion is just for the basic concept: Sexual Orientation/Attraction
Some have said that most FTM Cders that they have recognized are mostly "butch" lesbians. They identify as a "strong" partner in their sexual orientation....with that said lets take the straight GG into account, with her sexual orientation, dressing and passing as a man makes it as tough to attract a straight guy as it does for us straight MTF cders to attract women while we are dressed as girls. This may have a lot to do with the numbers of non transitioning FTM cders not being very high.

Dont beat me up too bad, just my theory

-Donni-

[Kid Flash]

Hmm, Juno could be right, part of it could be because you can't dress up as much in guy's clothing. I personally enjoy it, and I don't like make-up much in the first place.

As to what MissDonni said... Well, on here, there are barely any FtM crossdressers but if you were to go to an anime convention you'd find loads more girl crossplayers than guy ones. Part of it may have to do with the whole anime convention environment being out of the norm in the first place.

[kurokaze]

It comes down to how one identifies. A good example is very butch lesbians--the kind you tend to mistake for men by appearances alone. They dress in men's clothes and pass as men (and sometimes even prefer male pronouns), yet are neither cross-dressers nor transmen because they don't identify as such. Rather, they still identify as women, hence the "lesbian" part...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :iagree: :tongueout :heehee: :cheer::bs::dance: :GD: :eg: :^5: :thumbup: :fs:

[[ Quoted for emphasis ... and ... well... omg smileys... hahahaha ]]

Wow, my brain just absolutely couldn't articulate how deeply I agree just now...

uhm... well... that says it all right there... JUST as I was returning to forums, wondering if there was anywhere I fit in... there's a thread that more-or-less describes my situation.

I've explored the heck out of my identity... and "living male" didn't suit me... just... wow!!!

[[ Quote ]]
...Female bodied, I even present as such, or sometimes androgyne, but never as male.
[[ Maybe.. FtM crossdresser??? WHOA!!! (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134150) ]]

I never really thought of it that way... am I a crossdresser? after a fassion? kinda like "after a fassion, I'm transmasculine" ... or even "FTM-esque" ... crazy stuff!!!

This thread just blows my mind.

Sure, even if I myself don't neccessarily IDENTIFY as such... yeah, FtM crossdressers exist. :2c:

------- MERGE ------- ((( gee shelly... that confused me for a minute... and NOW the timestamp for the second post is missing... RAWR )))

:: the following was not written originally ::


...I am sure that there are F2M CDER's who, because of how society view dress code have an easier time of dressing in mainstream e.g. when doing the top & tails bit, it being seen as cute...


...As for the patronizing, I think I can safely say that the bulk of us get that, FtM CD or not. The patronizing becomes a whole lot more dangerous the more the patronizer sees the individual isn't trying to be "cute." So that's where a lot of the trouble starts.

uhgk...

I feel horrible right about now... "cute / patronizing / etc." ... well... it uhm... sorta...

perhaps the term "dressing for comfort" applies to FtM CDs as well. or ... heck, I dunno...

... objectifying or patronizing or otherwise "not taking someone's identity serriously" ... I really wish I hadn't had personal experience with this.

The community of various persons willing to raise the bar on gender expression... well... there's enough people in the world whom aren't yet progressive or understanding.

... I can't form a complete paragraph, thesis, point right now, just that I feel absolutely horrid thinking about...

horrid ... thinking of... "ways in which someone invalidates a thing whiich makes another person truly happy"

Ze --- I wish I hadn't followed up on OTHER PEOPLE ... like ... the way the conversation went... ok I've completely lost the ability to type about this. Can't handle it.

--- edit ::: with regard to the SECOND portion of this now-merged post... just wanted to clarify one thing...

when a thread goes OFF TOPIC like this (talking about something unexpected, and potentially upsetting) ... well... I guess I'll just quote myself ((( lol )))

[[ quoted for emphasis, slightly rewritten ]]
said to ze ... I wish I hadn't followed up on OTHER PEOPLE [[ the off topic part ]] ... like ... the way the conversation went... Can't handle it...
[[ goodness, off topic is generally a pet peve of mine on forums, but off topic + potentially upsetting? RAWR ]]

[Sheila]

kurokaze, hi I am the thread starter and i would like you to know that never know way would I ever call an F2M dresser CDER/TS as "Cute" ever and I mean ever. Ze will confirm if you need it doing that I am one of the Guys biggest supporters.

We were in the quotes you used discussing in pricipal how society manages to allow/enable itself to accept F2M's dressing in suits/top n tails by using such phrases a cute in a patronizing way ........... not that we agree with it, but rather that we acknowledge that some sections of general society need to "label" it to accept it without it disturbing their "view" of how things should be ........ in many ways it is the opposite extreme from them viewing M2F's as weird/sex driven monsters for dressing in clothing designed for females ............... neither view is right, but they are views held by some :sad:

It was a conversation with another member that I had via PM that lead me to start this thread ......... I am glad you were delighted to find this thread on your return to the boards and i hope that my explanation will clear up any confusion in the conversation ZE and I had earlier in the thread .......... Ze and I have had many conversations in many threads, some in this section many across the board, some in jest, some in all seriousness, some a mixture of both as well as in PM's and visitor messages ......... please believe me I would never ever knock any ones dress code in any serious way ........ My partner is a M2F TS (we are a few steps down the TS road at the moment) and while I am her biggest supporter/fan, I can and do on occasions take the micky out of her dress just as she does me, always in fun and never ever to be taken seriously.

Please accept my apology if I in any way led you to believe that I was micky taking in any way any TG dressed :hugs:

[kurokaze]

...Please accept my apology if I in any way led you to believe that I was micky taking in any way any TG dressed...

uh... actually, I KNEW you were having a conversation / exchanging ideas on forums (was kinda obvious actually, but I still appreciate your appology)

... to be perfectly honest, I was triggered by the subject matter of...

... [[ treatment of persons whom are in "non-conforming dress" ]]

... quite honestly, that wasn't even the original thread / topic...
those sorts of threads / discussions I generally opt-into ONLY when I feel like I can handle them.

----

Side note, I quoted you (this time) for another reason... what does it mean:

[[ I was micky taking in any way any TG dressed ]] ???

I read between the lines just fine... I didn't figure you were disrespecting anyone, it was just that I was triggered... heh.

It's all good (no harm, no foul... worked through my trigger at this point and had a great day to be perfectly honest)

=^_^= Ryan

[Nicole Erin]

Depends on how one identifies.
I once had a FTM CD friend, but he didn't really call himself that. tho, he loved it when someone thought he was a guy.
I used to call him "sir".

What this person did identify as is a butch lesbian. He was so butch he farted men's Stetson cologne.

Yes, this person was GG. 100% lesbian. I do believe he was probably transsexual, just has not quite realised it yet. he would have no problems passing.

[Tamara Croft]

Side note, I quoted you (this time) for another reason... what does it mean:

[[ I was micky taking in any way any TG dressed ]] ???It's a UK saying, means taking the piss out of someone, making fun of someone... you get the idea? And seriously, you need to calm down at Sheila ok?

[BRANDYJ]

I wondered what it meant to. Leave it to the English to mess up the English language! OOPS! Just kidding! Love the different words for different things in England and the US
But ya'all still drive on the wrong side of the road!:lol2:

[Moe GG]

Well.. I dressed up as a dude once, suit, beard and all, (not Halloween) but even if I'm a tomboy in female mode, I look too girly in guy mode to ever pull it off.
Wouldn't mind doing it again though, especially if I could get a MtF CD to go out with me! :heehee: :battingeyelashes:

Still, once doesn't make me a crossdresser, so I suppose it doesn't count. :doh:

[got2free.Ollie]

ok wow I wanna follow along with what everyone is saying but I'm completely new to the terminology and I'm not sure what the difference is between a FtM TS, FtM TG, FtM and a FtM CDER...Can someone help me understand?

[Thornton]

ok wow I wanna follow along with what everyone is saying but I'm completely new to the terminology and I'm not sure what the difference is between a FtM TS, FtM TG, FtM and a FtM CDER...Can someone help me understand?

FtM TS: Female to Male Transsexual
FtM TG: Female to Male Transgender
FtM: Female to Male
FtM CDer: Female to Male Crossdresser

A FtM TS is a transman. He is fully male in identity 24/7. If it is safe enough, he'll present as male 24/7. He prefers to be referred to with "he" Him" "His" etc

A FtM TG is a much broader term. I've seen it mean different things to everyone, but I personally define it as: any person who was at one female-bodied and transgresses the social definition of femininity. This includes everyone from butch lesbians to FtM CDers to Transmen to female bodied genderqueers to everyone else in between.

A FtM CDer is a female who sometimes dresses as male. This may be to perform (as a Drag King) or in private, or just because she prefers men's clothing...

[got2free.Ollie]

A FtM TS is a transman. He is fully male in identity 24/7. If it is safe enough, he'll present as male 24/7. He prefers to be referred to with "he" Him" "His" etc

A FtM TG is a much broader term. I've seen it mean different things to everyone, but I personally define it as: any person who was at one female-bodied and transgresses the social definition of femininity. This includes everyone from butch lesbians to FtM CDers to Transmen to female bodied genderqueers to everyone else in between.

A FtM CDer is a female who sometimes dresses as male. This may be to perform (as a Drag King) or in private, or just because she prefers men's clothing...
Ah ok! Thank you VERY much for those :) You're very helpful :)
So I suppose that makes me FtM CDer and FtM TG. But I hope that FtM CDer is a bit broader of a definition than just preferring to wear men's clothing O.O so FtM CDers include people who feel they should be male but still identify currently as female? or am I out of luck on that one? lol

[Thornton]

so FtM CDers include people who feel they should be male but still identify currently as female? or am I out of luck on that one? lol

"should" is a strong word. FtM CDers don't really feel that they "should" be male. They may not prefer to be female over male; that may not have minded being born male. But they don't think that they "should" be men, that they were born wrong...

[got2free.Ollie]

"should" is a strong word. FtM CDers don't really feel that they "should" be male. They may not prefer to be female over male; that may not have minded being born male. But they don't think that they "should" be men, that they were born wrong...

Its really freakin' hard putting my feelings into words :doh: I don't think my brain feels like should was the right word there :P I think its more of, a good half the time I feel like I'm a girl and I feel 'whatever' for that, but then the other good half I feel like I'm supposed to be a guy, or that I should change...
...O.O dang this is gonna take allot of thinking to figure everything in my head out :P thanks for the help :)