When crossdressing is simply dressing

[Byllie]

This is a theme I've occasionally written about, and right now I feel like taking a stroll through these ideas.

One of the things I've learned from this forum is that there are many, many reasons a genetic male would choose to wear women's clothing. First off, I do not like using the term "women's clothing" but would prefer "feminine clothing" instead. Let's face it; women wear masculine clothing without so much as minor blink, but the reverse is not true ... yet.

Some males wear femme clothing for the rush, some for the emotional release, some to display "another side", while others do so because they wish to "be" female. The list goes on and on. But in all cases, we take as a given that it is a male who wishes to dress like a female.

Yet, this basic premise is, IMHO, flawed. It assumes there are only two genders. What if there there were three genders? Or four? Or perhaps a gender continuum? How then would we define "crossdressing"?

First, the prefix "cross-" would be meaningless. It assume two, polar genders which in our discussion would be two of many, perhaps with significant overlap.

Okay, so let's use the term "counterdressing"; that is to dress in a fashion other than your specific gender. This would work as it maintains the intent of the term "crossdressing" while acknowledging a multiplicity of genders.

Therefore, if one is a gender other than male or female, a gender that shares attributes of both, and one was dressing with respect to this third gender, then it would not be "counterdressing". But, if one still adhered to the old polar view of gender, it would be "crossdressing".

This is the confusion I find in the use of all of these terms. Personally, I'm looking to simply dress as me, as the gender I see myself as, whatever that might be. I am not attempting to either "crossdress" or "counterdress", but simply to "dress".

So, it seems that "crossdressing" for one of us is simply "dressing" for another. If that is the case, then I also feel that it is imperative to allow each of us to express ourselves as we see fit. There is no single definition for what we do, nor should there be. To adopt rigid definitions, either consciously or not, serves our group a disservice.

I will admit, I find it hard to rationalize why someone would want to dress in a manner such that they "become" someone else. But that is simply a reflection of my my personal experience and understandings. I work hard at being as accepting of others as I can. Life's too short to do otherwise.

I would also hope that as I describe the type of clothes I enjoy wearing (when I get the chance to wear them) and the fact that I have a well-cropped beard, that others will simply say, "Oh, that's Bill, and he's okay." I can even imagine someone choosing not to shave any hair from their body. Of course, this will not work with "every" type of outfit, but for some outfits it is perfectly fine.

I look forward to the day when terms such as "crossdressing" and "counterdressing" slip out of use because they no longer have any current meaning. I sincerely hope that day comes very, very soon.

Toodles!
Bill

[sherri52]

Bill this would all be great except that in the world of today there are too many people with closed minds. You could take away genders and somehow there would be those that tend to be different. There will always be some form of crossdressing or counterdressing until the world ends which will be long after i'm gone.

[sissystephanie]

Bill, I might agree with some of the things you bring out about "dressing," but certainly not all. Your Gender is determined at birth! There are, at least in humans, only two Genders, Male and Female.

The clothing you wear does not determine your gender, although it certainly may indicate your preference! During most of my married life, my late wife fixed my wig and did my makeup well enough for me to comletely pass as a female. We went out as two girls and had many encounters with men! Never was I "outed!" Now that she has passed away, I go out as a man but dressed as a female! In five years I have never had any problems while doing that. Probably just jinxed myself! LOL! The main point is that I am a man, but I love to wear feminine clothing! I am a Crossdresser and freely admit it!

BTW, I Crossdress simply because I love the fit, feel, and look of feminine clothing! Not for sex or any other reason!!

[Satrana]

Yet, this basic premise is, IMHO, flawed. It assumes there are only two genders. What if there there were three genders? Or four? Or perhaps a gender continuum? How then would we define "crossdressing"?

I agree the basic premise is flawed. There is a gender continuum even among non-TGs so the idea that we must stick to this artificial binary system of being one or the other is just plain unimaginative. We do it to fit in to expectations and lessen social stigma and to allow us to play a social role that interests us. However since we are already doing something taboo then unless we actually pass then it is really just capitulation to "normalness".

Gender is a social construct but to bend the rules beyond the binary system is a step too far for many CDs who struggle with just the basic notion of crossdressing.

I guess a better term would be to just call what we do "gender expression". This is just who we are. Individualism tends to vary with age. When you are young you feel the peer pressure more so the urge to conform and fit in will automatically lead you to mimic the binary system. But when you are older, wiser and self assured, the desire to stand out and express your true self becomes stronger. I guess it is down to confidence and your state of being out of the closet that will determine how much individualism is carried over into your enfemme presentation.

[gemsay32]

I honestly think that everything is culturally enforced. If the culture became more comfortable with this topic, it could begin to build a framework around it to reinforce it. But since it's not well understood, fear and tradition tend to dominate.

Everything that is a boy is mostly cultural, same for females. Ya, there's an obvious genetic difference, but guys wear jeans because of culture. Woman wear dresses for the same reason. These things can be different. Guys don't have to be football players. Woman don't have to be cheerleaders.

But there're obvious differences, despite culture. Engineering and math and science and physics tend to be dominated by men probably because their brains have a spatial cognition advantage that allows them to fill those roles more easily. There're a lot of woman in biology. An example of spatial recognition that I can think of is parallel parking. Since guys have this advantage, on average, they'll probably excel. Perhaps some of that is cultural. I know that research has shown that woman, when they feel marginalized, like when they see that mostly men are in a field, they don't perform as well. When people are marginalized, heart rate goes up and they can't focus effectively. Thus, they're not as likely to succeed.

Another example of genetics in culture is testosterone. Testosterone is associated with absurd self-confidence. There're many things in our culture affected by this. For example, most executives and ceo's and administrative roles are occupied by men. Same for government, all across the world it's saturated with men. This is probably true because of the advantage testosterone gives. Some woman in those fields that're trying to get into them inject testosterone into their bloodstream on a regular basis to give them the same feelings of assurance and strength.

And the differences between the WNBA and the NBA are clear for anyone to see. The woman, unfortunately, are slow compared to NBA standards. It's not a secret. And woman very very rarely ever dunk the ball. Only a few have actually accomplished it. Yet, men dunk it on a routine basis. It requires speed and strength to perform a dunk during a live game. It's not the same when you're doing it alone. This is probably the case because men can more easily burn fat and build muscle than woman (due in part to testosterone). So, even though I feel many things are cultural, some are genetic.

I recall one study. They performed an experiment with both girls and boys (children). They dropped money from up above. The girls mostly grabbed randomly at the falling money. The boys, however, methodically grabbed at them. Interesting!

[Karren H]

I recall one study. They performed an experiment with both girls and boys (children). They dropped money from up above. The girls mostly grabbed randomly at the falling money. The boys, however, methodically grabbed at them. Interesting!

Oh yeah!! That's because even at an early age... Girls know all they have to do is smile and the boys will give them all their money so why put a lot of effort into it! Lol.

[Frédérique]

Yet, this basic premise is, IMHO, flawed. It assumes there are only two genders. What if there there were three genders? Or four? Or perhaps a gender continuum? How then would we define "crossdressing"?

How about eleven genders, one for each dimension in String Theory? :heehee:

Crossdressing is a very nebulous word, like nearly every other term decided on by the majority for means of expediency. I agree with your “feminine” clothing description – I see these garments less as “opposite” and more like essential, if we are to express our true selves and feel good while we’re doing it. Hence, the term "crossdressing" is inaccurate. But, when I’m standing in a place I shouldn’t be (according to society), like the women’s clothing section in a store, the ideas of “wrong,” “opposite,” and “other” come across loud and clear. It’s like entering a cattle chute to your specified gender area, but you’re allowed to look at everything you aren’t supposed to experience. It’s sad, but there are a few brave souls who imaginatively buck the system and live to tell about it. I keep my own gender integration a secret (except here, of course), but every now and then I put in a public appearance on the “wrong” side of the fence. Just as quickly, I’m gone, preferring to be invisible. In this monochromatic world (i.e. black and white), you’ll never be able to explain the subtleties of what you know to be true to the unenlightened. I just keep it to myself, and smile repeatedly…:):):)

[Kimmy55]

Too damn deep for me!

[Mea GG]

I agree the basic premise is flawed. There is a gender continuum even among non-TGs so the idea that we must stick to this artificial binary system of being one or the other is just plain unimaginative.

I would submit it is even more complicated than a gender continuum, let alone a binary system.

And the binary system is mostly just for reproduction purposes anyway. Though even there, modern medicine is more inventive all the time.

So a continuum would be a line, like a subway line with various stops along the way.

But I think the gender/sexuality identity of everybody is more like a road grid from sea to sea...you have two different coasts, let's have them each be a gender, but you also have the north/southness of them, which might represent another factor or variety of factors...and just because two individuals live on the same coast (are the same gender), the habits of the one in Seattle v. San Diego, or Maine v. South Carolina will not be the same.

Oh, crumb, I had a point, and I'm not sure if I've gotten there or not. I lost the map.

[docrobbysherry]

Even cover yourself with feathers! But, the general public will reject your premise and u! :brolleyes:

For MOST folks, if you're born with a penis, you're MALE! If borm without one, female!
And sadly, most don't really care to discuss "gender diversity"!:doh:

[kellycan27]

When you rid yourself of the fear of what others think, or label you, and you being to just live the life that suits you.
Kel

[ReineD]

I agree that the term "crossdressing" is imposed by others who can only see the binary, and maybe it even originated among CDs themselves earlier on when they still strongly identified as male? But it certainly doesn't reflect what the TG experiences after a degree of self-exploration.

But, we do live in a world where the TGs must communicate with the non-TGs, so there needs to be one or two common terms that will indicate the variance (from the majority who do not CD) in gender expression.


How about eleven genders, one for each dimension in String Theory? :heehee:

Only eleven? This works for fermions, but twenty-six dimensions work for bosons. :)

[Byllie]

Such great replies. Here are a few comments to what I read.

Stephanie - At birth we have two genetic sexes, male and female, but gender is a construct of which genetic sex is only one part.

Satrana - I like "gender expression a whole lot better; thanks!

gensay32 - You raise a good point about physiological differences between the sexes, but genetic sex does not equal gender. If that were the case then we'd have no TGs. Also, what we see as the "male brain" and "female brain" is only a generality for the two sexes. Research has shown that genetic women can have a male brain, while genetic men can have a female brain.

Frederique - Garments being "essential" is an excellent way of looking at it; thanks!

Mea - Road grid? Precisely!

Kelly - Fear is a VERY powerful force, more powerful than we ever wish to admit.

Reine - I disagree that we need to give in to the pressure of none CDs (counterdressers). Why? What does it gain us? Shouldn't we who live these lives be educating everyone else? Isn't that what the LGBT community is trying to do?

[Kate Simmons]

I'm wondering what the term is to express a person such as myself who has embraced both the masculine and feminine feelings and energies equally? We are so obsessed with terms and definitions as a nation that we tend to forget everyone is a unique individual. If we concentrated on that, we might actually make some progress.:)

[kimdl93]

I fall among those who dress in female attire because I want to feel like a woman to the extent I can...so regardless of whether there are 2 or more "genders", I want to feel like that one specific gender - woman.

[kellycan27]

; thanks!

Kelly - Fear is a VERY powerful force, more powerful than we ever wish to admit.

True enough, but facing one's fear is what we have to do. Look at all of the positive " I went out and nobody tried to eat me" threads. nobody said it was gonna be easy.

[ReineD]

Reine - I disagree that we need to give in to the pressure of none CDs (counterdressers). Why? What does it gain us? Shouldn't we who live these lives be educating everyone else? Isn't that what the LGBT community is trying to do?

I don't see it as giving in, but rather using a term in a sentence that everyone currently understands to express a particular behavior. I'm not saying the term shouldn't be changed, but the reality is that it will take time before we can persuade hundreds of millions of people outside the TG community to use 'counterdressing', or any other term someone else might come up with, instead of the 'crossdressing'. I personally prefer 'gender expression'. 'Counterdressing' reminds me too much of 'counter-intuitive'. The word 'counter' in itself has several meanings and one of them has an antagonistic feel, indicating opposition or resistance.

At any rate, there is nothing wrong with the average person using the term 'crossdressing' in a conversation with someone outside this community. Not everyone will be inclined to take time it will take to begin convincing the other person why the word 'crossdressing' is inaccurate.

[kimdl93]

I'd have to agree with Reine on this one - we can get so caught up in semantics that communication fails to occur. Crossdressing isn't perjorative in and of itself. Its simply the common usage. If we have the opportunity to discuss our practice of "cross dressing" with someone outside the community, we can use that opportunity to explain that CDing is a very general term that covers a diverse range of behaviors.

[Byllie]

I'd have to agree with Reine on this one - we can get so caught up in semantics that communication fails to occur. Crossdressing isn't perjorative in and of itself. Its simply the common usage. If we have the opportunity to discuss our practice of "cross dressing" with someone outside the community, we can use that opportunity to explain that CDing is a very general term that covers a diverse range of behaviors.
But the term "crossdressing" implies one is dressing to appear a gender he or she is not. Yet, for many that is simply not true. For many genetic males, the wearing of feminine clothing is because it is appropriate for their gender, whatever that might be.

[Jamie001]

Your Gender is not defined at birth. Your sex is defined at birth as male or female based upon your plumbing. Some folks incorrectly confuse gender with sex. Sex can be changed with surgery but gender is of the mind. Someone can be born male sex but have a female gender.



Bill, I might agree with some of the things you bring out about "dressing," but certainly not all. Your Gender is determined at birth! There are, at least in humans, only two Genders, Male and Female.

The clothing you wear does not determine your gender, although it certainly may indicate your preference! During most of my married life, my late wife fixed my wig and did my makeup well enough for me to comletely pass as a female. We went out as two girls and had many encounters with men! Never was I "outed!" Now that she has passed away, I go out as a man but dressed as a female! In five years I have never had any problems while doing that. Probably just jinxed myself! LOL! The main point is that I am a man, but I love to wear feminine clothing! I am a Crossdresser and freely admit it!

BTW, I Crossdress simply because I love the fit, feel, and look of feminine clothing! Not for sex or any other reason!!

[ReineD]

But the term "crossdressing" implies one is dressing to appear a gender he or she is not. Yet, for many that is simply not true. For many genetic males, the wearing of feminine clothing is because it is appropriate for their gender, whatever that might be.

For most people, gender identification matches birth sex. For you and some other members here it does not. So although you do present in a way that reflects your internal gender and to you this is not crossdressing, you are still presenting in a manner that crosses societal norms for your birth sex. Whether or not society should have developed different dressing norms for male and female, and whether there should be an accepted norm for androgynous is a different topic.

I don't blame you for not wanting to use the term 'crossdressing'. TSs do not CD either. But IMO 'counterdressing' isn't much better. Why don't you simply say that you are presenting yourself as who you feel you are?

Just curious, do you present fully femme or a more androgynous appearance?

[suchacutie]

String theory has many more than 11 dimensions...that is it's problem!!!

tina

[Byllie]

Just curious, do you present fully femme or a more androgynous appearance?
Slightly androgynous; trimmed and thinned eyebrows, nails a tad longer then for most males, mix of male and casual female clothing.


Your Gender is not defined at birth. Your sex is defined at birth as male or female based upon your plumbing. Some folks incorrectly confuse gender with sex. Sex can be changed with surgery but gender is of the mind. Someone can be born male sex but have a female gender.
Thank you!

I could not have said it better.

[Jaclyn NM]

Well Byllie, in many ways I totally agree with you. I'm a male and thoroughly enjoy being a male. I've been married to the same lovely woman for over 35 years, and have three wonderful children, and four grandchildren, and I would never think of changing a single thing. But I much prefer female clothing to male clothing, and I resent the fact that we are put into these boxes where we have to dress a certain way to conform to society's "norms". And let's face it, that there is a double standard when it comes to dress. Females can wear clothing that is traditionally male but not vice versa. It probably won't change in our lifetime, but I sure wish it would. I would love to just be myself out in the open, dressing as I choose. Oh well, I guess life just isn't fair.

[sissystephanie]

Colloquially, GENDER does mean sex! Nothing else! Your gender is either male or female at birth. Yes, you can think it is whatever you want it to be, but physically it is the way you were at birth unless you have had it changed! Those who think your sex and your gender are two entirely different things are totally wrong! Now you may be a Transgender, or even a Transsexual, but if you have male parts you are, gender wise, a male!!

The Grammarical version of gender was dying out for many years, but apparently has been revived. Probably by those who want to have many different versions of genetic sex instead of just male and female!!

Unless you have the surgery, you are what you were at birth. Putting on different clothing, and changing the way you look and act can certainly make you appear feminine! But underneath you are still a male being. Only God, or surgery, can change that!

I am a male, and I love being one. Yes, I do love to crossdress, but there is no desire at all to be a woman!! I am simply a male Crossdresser!!

[Byllie]

Colloquially, GENDER does mean sex! Nothing else! Your gender is either male or female at birth. <snip>

Sex is based on your physical genitalia, and indirectly your genes. Gender is based on your self image and your behavior. The two are not the same.

And this demonstrates the issue I was raising in the beginning. For the none CD/TS/TG community, sex does equal gender. But for the rest of us it does not. We see that though sex is an either or condition, gender is not. Gender may be a continuum, or it may be an n-dimensional construct, but it most definitely not limited to two, polar genders.

In his book, "The Essential Difference: The Truth about the Male and Female Brain", Simon Baron-Cohen makes it clear that instead of male and females brains, there are male and female cognitive patterns that are not solely found in genetic males and females, respectively.

Rather, both men and women, genetically, have a combination of male and female mental attributes. What is true is that most men tend toward male patterns of thought, while most women tend towards female patterns of thought. But this distribution of maleness and femaleness for both sexes follows a bell curve distribution.

Therefore, a man can have a female brain, while a woman can have a male brain. Think sissy and tomboy, respectively.

And this discussion does not even touch upon sexual orientation which is another matter altogether.

[sissystephanie]

Byllie, I don't know where you are getting the definitions you are using, but they are incorrect! Gender refers only to the sex you were born with, unless that has been changed surgically. Writers can put any definition they want on words, but the historical original one is the only true correct one. That is the one I used. You have to give me a little credit, I was probably a CD before you were born! But I still know the English language very well!

Your reference to the brain related to a "sissy" and a "tomboy." Those two individuals are still, gender wise, a man and a woman!! Ask any reputable medical doctor!

You are comletely right about one thing. Sexual orientation is a totally different matter, which I have no desire to get into. Gender wise and sexually, I am a male!! But I sure do love the pretty feminine clothing!!

[ReineD]

Stephanie, sex and gender are two different things. There is much written about this on the internet if you want to do some research, but for now I found just a simple definition from the World Health Organization. This definition doesn't take transgendered into account in their examples, but you can fill in between the lines.

Simply put, "male" and "female" are sex categories, while "masculine" and "feminine" are gender categories.

Here's the link: http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/index.html

And also, there are volumes written on this if you just want to conduct a search. Please remember that although you have a firm handle on the fact that you are a male who crossdresses, there are others who feel differently than you do and their own definitions are just as valid for them as yours are for you.

[Joanne f]

I try to look at things from all angles and i feel that i have slightly different desires that would suit me for many reasons , i do not think that i have heard anyone say the type of thing that is in my head yet and for that reason i find it more close to call myself 3G (third gender) at least for now , i know it could mean many things but until you know where you can fit in (if anywhere) it will suit me .:doh:

[Gerrijerry]

NOW hear this girls. My daugther is a doctor who is doing research on Gender. So far she has told me the idea that there is only male and female is totally wrong. The range goes for what she calls male/male to female/ female. for example you can get a male/ female or a female/male or a male and female with both physical traits and it is so much information that I lost most of it. so many effects on the gender from before birth to after birth that saying anyone is a male or female just does not make sense. We have all heard that both have traits of the other. How much depends on so many variables. saying one is a CD gay lesbian trans etc is more what you received from your family tree then what many really believe is a choice. who in there right mind would chose to be different when you know that you will have others giving you a hard time the rest of your life.

[Satrana]

There is another important problem with the term crossdressing - it only covers MTFs. When a woman wears men's clothes neither she nor society consider that to be crossdressing. This is true even when the woman is deliberately choosing to wear male clothes for its gender effect.

Women with mild gender dsyphoria do not even consider themselves to be TG but instead use the known and acceptable label tomboy. We now have a society where the majority of women consider themselves to be tomboys but this is a mixture of mainstream women who have no TG feelings, classical tomboys who revel in men's culture and women with gender dsyphoria.

The problem is MTF CDs stick out like a sore thumb since without an apparent female equivalent, it makes us look like deviants with the resulting lack of understanding and empathy.

Our language is based on labels, people need them to make sense out of complex structures. However we in this community have the power to define ourselves and adopt our own labels which should be chosen to enhance society's understanding and empathy of who we are.

I personally take advantage of the ubiquitous nature and acceptance of the label tomboy and define myself as a tomgirl. I find that produces an instantaneous understanding of what I am without the need for further explanation.

Whether of not the label tomgirl is an accurate label is irrelevant in terms of my relationship with the public. We have to be more astute and differentiate satisfying public perception with our own need to accurately define ourselves. If I told people that I was a gender expressionist - while I might love that label myself - it would just leave blank expressions on faces and I would still have to spend the next 20 minutes explaining the label probably with little success!

[Byllie]

All I can say is ... WOW! This thread has more intense discussion into the matter of what gender is than I've seen in a long, long time. Thanks!