Why CDs Have a Negative Image [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Nyx

08-17-2005, 05:30 PM

I was reading the other thread about "Why women wear men's clothes", and it got me thinking about my ideas on the subject, especially relating to a thread I started here before. Let's face it. Crossdressers have a negative image in our society. Especially MTF crossdressers. FTMs are generally not considered, but its also because they are so rare that they aren't really a part of the popular culture (no offense intended). So why is that? I will tell you my answer to the question: Its because of the sex.

People do make an association between homosexuality and crossdressing, which is mostly unfair (we all know there are many heterosexual CDs out there, including myself). But the foremost association they all seem to make is actually between crossdressing fetichism. The images that come to mind is that of a man smelling soiled panties, masturbating in women's lingerie, and having homosexual fantasies. *This* is what most people think of, when they think about crossdressing.

And they aren't all that wrong either. Earlier today, a stranger added me on MSN. His avatar was a picture of a man's genitalia with an abnormally small penis. I asked him who he was, and he said he was a gay doing a bit of crossdressing. I'm guessing that person saw my pictures, and probably had other things in mind than making friends with me.

Men, in society, have always been considered strong and powerful. But other than that, they also carry the shadow of the abuser and the opressor. People are used to hear about men raping women or raping little girls in the news. And for a woman, the idea of a man smelling their panties is reminiscent of that: A severe violation of her privacy, and its very well understandable. The true reason why many women (and men) hate crossdressers is because they find it freaky and sneaky that some men hide in order to infiltrate what was always considered women's private area. They consider it an unwelcome infiltration of their sexuality.

Lingerie in particular, and the frills, and all the beauty appaparel, have been reserved to women. On the other hand. The idea of a woman dressing as a man does not bring sexual ideas to mind. There is nothing reminiscent of a "violation" about it, or of a sneaky abuse of strength, or any kind of perversion.

So here is your answer. You may now stop wondering why. But I'm sure you all (consciously or not) knew it already. Its just that its hard to admit. Sure, we are not all perverts. But many crossdressers *are* fetichists and practice crossdressing for other reasons than "liberating the feminine side of their personality". Those people are giving the community a negative image to the general public.

Tristen Cox

08-17-2005, 05:39 PM

Yep tell me something we haven't heard yet ;)

Nyx

08-17-2005, 05:47 PM

Yep tell me something we haven't heard yet ;)

Whether it was said before or not is irrelevant. What held true still holds true. I'm just saying people need to pull their head out of the sand. Its no mystery why CDs have a negative image. Its because some people are ruining it.

susandrea

08-17-2005, 05:55 PM

I think what you say is true, but I think at FIRST GLANCE it's a more of a simple case of "hardy-har-har", especially if the crossdresser is very masculine and dressing very feminine.

It's a shame so many adults never grew up and still do the "pointing at the weird kid and laughing in the playground" crappola.

I think all the things you mention occur when there is more contact or discussion about it, but also true and, as you say, sometimes rightly so, like when the newspapers print yet another article about the guy who steals panties from his neighbors.

It's too bad.

gender_blender

08-17-2005, 07:34 PM

The images that come to mind is that of a man smelling soiled panties, masturbating in women's lingerie, and having homosexual fantasies. *This* is what most people think of, when they think about crossdressing.

Maybe in your mind, but you can't speak for the general public. Especially in this day and age.

But many crossdressers *are* fetichists and practice crossdressing for other reasons than "liberating the feminine side of their personality". Those people are giving the community a negative image to the general public.

I have always been a heterosexual transvestite (crossdressing fetishist) in private, and only recently (within the last few years) have I taken my non-sexual crossdressing to the next level and ventured into public view with the support of friends and the comfort that non-discrimination laws give. I believe you are looking at this topic in the wrong light, pointing a finger at the wrong source. The power to change society's views on transgenderism lies in those who are choosing to endorse the unjust views by remaining closeted and silent in their habits.

The main contributor to negative outlooks on transgenderism is mass-media's inability to portray the true nature of it.

Charlie

Sweet Jeanette

08-17-2005, 07:38 PM

I'm just saying people need to pull their head out of the sand.

The sand, is not where their head is at! ----Their head is in Another dark place! :rolleyes:

Ashley in Virginia

08-17-2005, 07:39 PM

...So here is your answer. You may now stop wondering why...

Well thank god. I was needing an answer, and you being the foremost authority on the situation have finally provided me with one. I can sleep well toninght, maybe. Thanks . :rolleyes:

There are varying degrees of crossdressing. Just because you see it as one thing, there are alot of people who only do it because it is a sexual turn on. And thats ok. They really aren't hurting anyone. Fact is the transgendered will never be accepted in society. NEVER, EVER! So get over it. The best you can hope for is tolerance and thats gonna be hard to come by. So in the end, treat others how you want to be treated, and be a good person and people will either come around or leave you alone.

LaceLuvr

08-17-2005, 08:08 PM

Fact is the transgendered will never be accepted in society. NEVER, EVER! So get over it. The best you can hope for is tolerance and thats gonna be hard to come by. So in the end, treat others how you want to be treated, and be a good person and people will either come around or leave you alone.

i can't agree with this statement so easily... while it may possibly be true and i'm rarely an "optimist" I do hope that one day society at large will open their minds enough to more than just tolerate lifestyles different from "the norm". I do beleive it is possible and will eventually happen but I don't think it will come soon or easily.... till then screw 'em if they don't like it :Punch:

Darlene.

08-17-2005, 08:23 PM

Well thank god. I was needing an answer, and you being the foremost authority on the situation have finally provided me with one. I can sleep well toninght, maybe. Thanks . :rolleyes:

There are varying degrees of crossdressing. Just because you see it as one thing, there are alot of people who only do it because it is a sexual turn on. And thats ok. They really aren't hurting anyone. Fact is the transgendered will never be accepted in society. NEVER, EVER! So get over it. The best you can hope for is tolerance and thats gonna be hard to come by. So in the end, treat others how you want to be treated, and be a good person and people will either come around or leave you alone.

Yes...contrary to many peoples opinions hopes or dreams, I do not see this world becoming a perfect place (ever) so there will always be some sort of friction. Friction causes stress. Many of us claim that we dress to relieve stress. Then we turn around and involve ourselves in activities that include stress. That would be defeating the purpose for my cross-dressing.

Darlene.

Melissa A.

08-17-2005, 08:52 PM

There are men who are not crossdressers who love to smell women's panties. And jerk off in them. And there are creepy, sneaky, tacky, tawdry, classless people of every sexual stripe.

Are you saying that if this particular area of crossdressing(panty fetishes) didn't exist, most people would be ok with me dressing as a female? We have a bad image, as you call it, for more than a few reasons, the biggest ones being ignorance and fear, I think. And yes, maybe the ways we are presented, especially by hucksters and porn sites looking to make a buck, and by popular culture, have something to do with it.

But a few people, who aren't hurting anyone, ruining it for the rest of us is probably not, in terms of the big picture, one of the more signifigant reasons, at least in my opinion.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

Lauren_T

08-17-2005, 10:27 PM

Not saying this to be agreeable, but you gels all make valid points re what makes us look bad to 'society.'

The errors here are in the nature of 'pant**-sniffers make us look bad,' 'pornmongers make us look bad,' 'no, what makes us look bad is...'

ALL of those things make us look bad, don't they? There's no 'typical' American opinion of CDs because there's no 'typical' American - or Westerner I guess we could say.

These negative images of what are misperceived as 'crossdressers' are a) not objected to by any famous individual or group - i.e. we have no champions, and b) few, if any positive images are offered the public - outside of Ed Wood (the girl, not the movie) and brother Steve on Drew Carey, how many other examples can you cite of a CD being shown to be, other than attire, a totally normal - indeed, likeable or endearing - person?

People remember Silence of the Lambs and Dressed To Kill. And I suggest that the association many people draw is that crossdresser = homicidal psychotic, not the correct one: homicidal psychotic, also happens to violate gender norms of dress.

Our cause was not helped one tau neutrino by {m/b}illionaire psycho serial murderer Bobby Durst, whose latest episode in a life which features a trail of dead and missing people was acted out in nearby seaside resort Galveston. He murders his neighbor, hacks him (literally) into bits and throws the bits into Galveston Bay. (Not an ecofreak, our Bobby)

To keep a low profile, he - a criminal, mind you - adopts a disguise of dressing as a woman. No self-expression here, this is a psychopath avoiding arrest. So what's the phrase used by our local representatives of the Fourth Estate?

CROSSDRESSING MILLIONAIRE ACCUSED OF MURDER

How many years did that little number set us back?

So it galls me that murderous psychos are portrayed as valid reprsentatives of the CD paraculture - but that's far from the only source of negative perceptions of us. There are countless people in the hinterlands (and in cities too) who have no idea who Durst or Buffalo Bill are, but they ingest a steady diet of telefundamentalism, so to them we hardly less evil. Then there's yet another bunch that equates CDs with drag queens, the only men in womens' clothing they even know exists. And the one thing Joe Twelvepack 'knows' about drag queens is, "They's a buncha queeers!"

All I'm pointing out (yeah, right. pffft.) is that there isn't a single bad image for CDs out there, there're multiple. But until we start getting some better press don't expect to stroll unmolested down the main drag of BFE en femme anytime soon.

To borrow the catchphrase of The Great Criswell (one of EW's best friends), "I PREDICT!:" that David Beckham will appear in public, IRL, in feminine attire - within two years!

You've all seen the pics of Becks in that sarong and Brad Pitt in that dress, right?

After the first male superstar asserts (not admits) that he crossdresses, and his career doesn't nosedive, others will pop out of the woodwork, slowly at first, and a certain number will even, just to be seen doing the latest and therefore hippest thing, claim (falsely) to be CDs - while some others - no, make that quite a few others - in Hollywood and everywhere else - will give it a try, big or small, covert or overt.

(Just think of it; thousands, no, millions of men out there who'll step into their first pair of pant**s! And of course from that moment on, as we all know, they'll be hooked! They'll be OURS! BWAHAHAHAHA!)

Before 2010, maybe by 2008, I PREDICT!: we will have a major, major TV/TS/TG Hollywood star!

That, dear sisters, is what yrs trly sees happening. What happens after that, I ain't thunk none on.

__________________________________________________ _
Know, first, who you are and then adorn yourself accordingly
~ Epictetus

Catherine in Colo

08-17-2005, 11:14 PM

While Nyx may have presented her argument in a way that is offensive to many, if not most cd/tg folk, she also exposes a very true reality, and one that even worries me when it comes to this forum.

In the real world, when an unitiated CD, or spouse, or significant other, attempts to seek information about our world, their first exposure is usually to something associated with sex or pornography, whether it be a transexual porn site, or a forum such as this, where many, if not most, of the posts revolve around fantasies or sex.

Please don't get me wrong..I'm not condemning or judging those who make such posts, because the reality is that, if measured solely by posts, a majority of those interested in crossdressing or crossgender expression are interested in the sexual nature of this phenomenon. And because THAT is what so many people are exposed to first, THAT is the impression they get of everyone in our community.

I personally have no problem with those for whom this is primarily a sexual thrill...to each their own. But for those of us who seek something deeper in this exploration, we have a hard time differentiating ourselves. So Nyx, you are preaching to the choir in this instance. Those of us who are concerned about the negative perception of cds can do nothing about it, and those of us who don't care, well, you aren't going to keep someone from posting about how sexy they feel in 5 inch heels, because that is their right to do every bit as much as it is ours to try to explain why it's something deeper than mere sex.

To answer your question, we're not complaining about that reality..we're just doing our part to change it...

Renee

Helana

08-17-2005, 11:36 PM

I personally have no problem with those for whom this is primarily a sexual thrill...to each their own. But for those of us who seek something deeper in this exploration, we have a hard time differentiating ourselves. So Nyx, you are preaching to the choir in this instance. Those of us who are concerned about the negative perception of cds can do nothing about it, and those of us who don't care, well, you aren't going to keep someone from posting about how sexy they feel in 5 inch heels, because that is their right to do every bit as much as it is ours to try to explain why it's something deeper than mere sex.

Good points. But I would go further and say just about every CD and TS out there has at some point incorporated CDing into their sexual fantasies and so pointing the finger at those who have jerked off, is really pointing the fingers at 99% of the TG community.

Certainly the internet very much skews the public image's towards she-males and kinky sex acts, much to our detriment to be taken seriously. This is never going to change. The internet is all about sex - I believe about 70% of all data sent is sex related. We just have to live with this reality while at the same time ensuring serious discussion and fair representation is achieved in the real world.

The worst thing we could do as a community is become intolerant of those who enjoy the sexual element of CDing.

racquel

08-18-2005, 05:37 AM

Helana states correctly"The INTERNET is all about sex - I believe about 70% of all data sent is sex related. We just have to live with this reality"

I heard it said one time that if all sexually related stuff was banned from the INTERNET 90 per cent of it
would disappear and the other ten percent would be looking for it. :rolleyes:

I also believe that as more of us brave being out en femme in a respectful,appropriate manner the ignorance will lessen,although it will take awhile. :rolleyes:

ChristineRenee

08-18-2005, 05:54 AM

I think Lauren T has it right. When some big time Hollywood star(s) out themselves as CD'ers...you watch the new "fad" start to take hold. This is usually how these things start and become accepted and commonplace. Just look at reality TV...and now ballroom dancing is becoming en vogue again.

It will happen...and maybe sooner than we think......I sure hope so anyway...before I'm too old to enjoy (or remember) it!:D

Julie

08-18-2005, 06:12 AM

Melissa A.

08-18-2005, 06:35 AM

Whatever the reason(s) the public views crossdressing negatively, the fact remains they aren't going to change their views soon unless we do something to help them understand. Add to that the fact this is still listed as a disorder and we have a serious uphill battle.

We need leaders who aren't afraid to show their faces in public and I just don't see that happening. The measures one takes to keep their crossdressing a secret is testament to that. How can crossdressing ever gain acceptance when virtually every one of us lives in fear of discovery? If you're afraid of being found out, then you must be doing something wrong. Therefore, if you think it's wrong, so will everyone else. Actions speak louder than words and our actions say we are ashamed of being crossdressers.

The general public will never change their attitudes until we do first.

Discovery doesn't scare me. I don't care who knows. I really don't. and some do. But there's a difference between people knowing and seeing. I admit I don't have the strength yet to just walk around downtown or go shopping as Melissa. I wish I did. I admit that I am afraid of the possible ridicule, the staring, etc. Not to mention being beat up. I hope I can find the strength to change that. One step at a time, I guess. My whole family knows, though I don't talk about it with anyof them, save for my Mom. I was discovered when I was younger by a friend and have friends who know(word got around, impossible to stop!) who probably wish they didn't. But that they are still my friends means that I have shown them that I'm still the same person I was before they knew. So I guess, accidentally, I have accomplished some of what you are talking about, Julie. But I'm not gonna show up at a party as Melissa and purposely make people uncomfortable. I am comfortable with who I am, and won't deny it, if asked. And any woman I am really interested in, I tell. But I guess I still have some reservations. It's a process that I hope will continue, and bring me more strength and confidence, as time goes on.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

Melissa Ryan

08-18-2005, 07:53 AM

Please forgive me for not rambling (too much)(for a change) I happen to be a member of the general public. I have no problem with any of you here! Most of my friends are "nomal" and a lot of them know about me. The ones who know, just accept, the ones who dont, I dont care to share my life with to much, (but I dont condemn them for not seeing things my way) for all the reasons pointed out in this thread. So I guess I choose to move my life down the path that is easiest to walk along as me. Thankyou, for holding my hand. When YOU need ME, just call.......1800.......

Sorry, just joking. I am here, and I will be here for any who need.

.......Melissa.........

Wendy me

08-18-2005, 08:21 AM

Whether it was said before or not is irrelevant. What held true still holds true. I'm just saying people need to pull their head out of the sand. Its no mystery why CDs have a negative image. Its because some people are ruining it.

all to true and those that see us alone or together as a groupe look at and judge us for what we show them as who we are . show them that we as the leaders and speakers of a for the most part unknown or miss understood people, throu our thoughts words and actions.. think of how you project your / owr image out in the coumity... what dose it say abought you ???? what dose it say abought us all as a groupe....be seen and heard as you realy want people to see and hear you ....girlfreind only one thing i would change in this comment you made ..." i'm just saying people need to pull their head out of the sand." possably thay have their heads some were else.... thank you sister a veary good post....

susandrea

08-18-2005, 09:25 AM

Yes, it's the "bad" CDs that make the news, not the "good" ones. There's no balance! It's far more tantalizing to print a news feature about the crossdressing bank robber or the guy arrested with 600 pairs of stolen panties than it is to write about.....well what? That a crossdresser successfully went out to dinner with his wife? One would have to save a drowning child while dressed to get any good news, so no wonder the general public sees CDs as weirdos. And that's backed up constantly by movies as stated before-- it's either portrayed as funny or deranged.

Just YESTERDAY my boss was talking about how she saw a friend's husband at the beach and noticed his legs were shaved. She said it "made her sick", and then went on to say that everyone suspected he was gay and just never admitted it. I didn't even bother joining in the conversation and suggesting to her that she was not only phobic but retarded as well. I know that anything I could have said would just make her dig her claws in even more. As they say, "Cast not thy pearls before swine".... meaning that some people simply aren't ready for an enlightened mindset. Maybe in a couple of lifetimes.

It is a fact that has to be considered that the reason the "bad" CDs get news and the "good" CDs so rarely do, is that there are so many more "bad" ones out there and the "good" ones, the majority by far, aren't. Coupled with the fact that the intelligence and sophistication level of the U.S. is at an all-time low lately, it's no wonder the stereotype of a pervy crossdresser is so pervasive in today's society. Add in the porn aspect of she-males, ect..... and there you go.

It's a very tough hurdle to get over. Until people get to experience more positive aspects of crossdressing things won't change. Unfortunately, it's still so common for the CD himself to wrestle with negative feelings about going out, or to be consumed with just immediate family issues (kids and/or an unsupportive spouse) to even think about interacting with the pubilic and projecting a positive image. I've seen over and over again the desire to "blend in" which is certainly understandable, but also invisible.

So, yes, it may end up being the celebrity and political crossdressers-- few that there are-- who will have to lead the way through all the low-level panty stealers to get enough attention to make it count.

I'll take one very famous soccer player with pink nail polish over six panty stealers, three porno she-males, two psycho-killer transexual movie characters, and a bank robber in a dress thank-you very much!

Nyx

08-18-2005, 09:51 AM

One would have to save a drowning child while dressed to get any good news, so no wonder the general public sees CDs as weirdos.

Thats not such a bad idea....

What we really need is.............. WOMAN MAN!

With a bulletproof spandex-titanium alloy mini-dress, fire resistant nanofiber stockings and wig, ultra perforating metal spike high heels and a purse full of guns and handgrenades.

Then we just get woman man to save a few people from criminals and make a sexy pose for the newspapers, and we're set ;) We'll get plenty of kids that go "mommy! I want the woman man action figure!" and "mommy, I want to be like woman man when I grow up!".

susandrea

08-18-2005, 09:59 AM

Thats not such a bad idea....

What we really need is.............. WOMAN MAN!

With a bulletproof spandex-titanium alloy mini-dress, fire resistant nanofiber stockings and wig, ultra perforating metal spike high heels and a purse full of guns and handgrenades.

Then we just get woman man to save a few people from criminals and make a sexy pose for the newspapers, and we're set ;) We'll get plenty of kids that go "mommy! I want the woman man action figure!" and "mommy, I want to be like woman man when I grow up!".

Actually, comedian Eddie Izzard talks about his alter-ego "Super-Tranny", who seems to get to the scene of the crime a half hour too late because he had to finish his glass of white wine while putting the finishing touches on his makeup. :) (He says, "That's why trannies wouldn't make good super-heros; they'd never get out the door fast enough). :D

Phoebe Reece

08-18-2005, 10:02 AM

Maybe someone should send the idea for "Woman Man" to Spielberg to make a movie out of. He could make it with Tom Cruise in the lead. Maybe that would help our image.

Fallen Angel

08-18-2005, 10:09 AM

look the trueth is it takes alot of courage to go out in public to begin with and a set of kahuna's that would fill a dump truck!so most people woudnt even think of bothering you in the first place but the sad part is we are condemed for the life style we live and prematurely strerio typed and labeled as gay,perverted,ect in our sociaty. and we can have this discution till we are blue in the face if we realy want change if we realy want people to know who we are and what we are abought than we have to stand as a group united. one or two wount make a differace but a thousand could and untill we voice our selves to be heard it will never happen you cant sit on your lorrals with your lap opened and you mouth shut and think its going to happen think again! if you truely want change we have to make it happen xxx

Phoebe Reece

08-18-2005, 10:13 AM

Amen Angel!

Tamara Croft

08-18-2005, 10:21 AM

Angel I coulda written that myself, well said!!!

Only you can change the way society percieves you, only you can educate the idiots that give you labels. Yes there are a few CD's out there that could give you a bad name, but there are more of you out there that outweigh them. Of all the members on this forum...... and there are a few thousand, I've only seen one that had some perverted fetish towards his daughters lingerie..... but that was one..... and that one was soon outweighed by the members on this board. And before you go on to tell me how hard it is, I know, I know that it's not as easy just to go out there and make yourself heard, but until you get out there and tell the world that you're sick of being labelled..... how will things ever evolve?? It's not up to film makers to fix things, it's up to you. Women didn't get to vote by making a film about it, they stood up for their rights.... so you should do the same.

Ophelia D'Void

08-18-2005, 02:18 PM

One would have to save a drowning child while dressed to get any good news, so no wonder the general public sees CDs as weirdos.

Unfortunately, if we did happen to save a drowning child, we'd probably be beaten to death with purses, what with people thinking we're trying to rape the little kid when we give mouth to mouth.

Tristen Cox

08-18-2005, 02:23 PM

Ophelia D'Void

08-18-2005, 02:31 PM

Well, actually, that sort of thing is happening in Southern California, with Caucasians becoming a minority, and Hispanics and Asians becoming more numerous, but that was met with alot of anti-affirmative action legislation and quasi-racists anti-immigration laws, but that's something for a different forum.

April

08-18-2005, 02:44 PM

Hello Ladies,

Society often has negative misconceptions about transgendered people. In my humble opinion, shows like Jerry Springer and she-male porn sensationalize and contribute the most to societies negative misconceptions. Many of these misconceptions linger on because the vast majority of transgendred people remain deeply in the closet. Are we not the most qualified people to be doing the educating of the public and clearing up misconceptions? And yet, the majority of us hide in fear and shame doing nothing. I know, I know, yes, but.....

Tamara Croft

08-18-2005, 03:26 PM

Ya know some day it's gonna SUCK when they are the freaks and the minority instead of us. Then the tables will be turned, and they will know how it feels to spend your life watching your step.

I can't wait!
Yeah.... and they can have their own damn forum and call it www.non-crossdressers.com ;)

Tristen Cox

08-18-2005, 03:30 PM

:lol: True

Julie

08-18-2005, 05:09 PM

Angel,

You finished what I was thinking.

Imagine a TG politician getting up in front of the cameras chastizing those who persecute, ridicule, denigrate or otherwise keep the negative myth alive. Imagine your priest standing in front of the masses telling them they need to stop hating TGs and instead love and accept them. Imagine the newspapers or local media supporting the TG agenda to rid society of hatred and bigotry.

This seems light years away but it's the kinds of things that have to happen before the pendulum will start to swing in our favor. Everything begins at grass roots levels and grows from there.

But how many are willing to expose themselves for this cause? That's where the problem begins.

Ayla GG

08-18-2005, 07:35 PM

Nyx,

Thanks for sharing your insight & perspective. You wrote an interesting & honest observation of our world view/ society. I don't find your observation offensive ( I'm not a CD but my SO is & I'm supportive). I know for a fact that sometimes people just want to share their passing thoughts/ ideas. I always love reading these things because you can always learn something from new perspective, even if I may disagree with certain point of views...I can still respect it. CDing is a sensitive issue & people deffinitely need to understand/ learn what CDing means in order to get over their phobia/ negative feelings.

Perhaps CD rights can start with little steps. CDs who are in touch with themselves & have accepted that CDing is part of their being can open up with the people in their life. You can try to educate them, make them understand what it means to you & what the journey was for you as you grow. If you can't open up or make the beloved people in your life who will give you the benefit of the doubt...people who know you intimately, how do you expect other people who don't know you, readily judge you & have prejudices against you understand. Start the battle small & hopefully that small change will have an impact...it will grow somehow to better understanding & acceptance.

I know...I know I'm not a CD & I may not even know what I'm talking about. But I do know what it feels like to be perceived as a freak...an outcast & I know how important acceptance is, recognition & respect...being loved because you are what you are.

inherundys

08-18-2005, 09:05 PM

Just YESTERDAY my boss was talking about how she saw a friend's husband at the beach and noticed his legs were shaved. She said it "made her sick", and then went on to say that everyone suspected he was gay and just never admitted it.

Good lord! What a shallow life she must lead. Made her SICK????

I grew up in a family with a gay cousin. Never made any of us "sick". We just knew "W" was different and accepted it. No one ever spoke ill of him, or made comments behind his back. We all loved to be around him and his friends. I always looked foward to family functions that included him, because a good time was had by all, every time.

racquel

08-20-2005, 08:12 PM

Ayla says"Perhaps CD rights can start with little steps. CDs who are in touch with themselves & have accepted that CDing is part of their being can open up with the people in their life. You can try to educate them, make them understand what it means to you & what the journey was for you as you grow. If you can't open up or make the beloved people in your life who will give you the benefit of the doubt...people who know you intimately, how do you expect other people who don't know you, readily judge you & have prejudices against you understand. Start the battle small & hopefully that small change will have an impact...it will grow somehow to better understanding & acceptance"
Very well put and so true.Treat this issue like charity.
Start at home. :thumbsup:

MarinaTwelve200

08-20-2005, 08:52 PM

Its really quite simple, IMHO, why CDs have a "Negative" image with much of the public.

So many of the public have crazy , stupid and ignorant ideas of what they think HOMOSEXUALS (gays) are, and of course they Think CDs are "homosexuals", so they share the same stupid ideas about CDs as they do gays. Simple enough.

Sharon

08-20-2005, 08:57 PM

Marlena Dahlstrom

08-20-2005, 11:44 PM

Besides all the reasons already mentioned, here's a couple more reasons.

In America culture (can't speak for others) manhood is often defined less by what you are, but rather what you aren't: not female, not gay. Especially during the past 30 years when gender roles have been changing so rapidly. As Joe Jackson once asked in a song: (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/j/joe-jackson/72749.html)

What’s a man now - what’s a man mean
Is he rough or is he rugged
Is he cultural and clean

When we were boys we'd taunt other about being homosexual long before we knew what that was. What we really meant was another boy wasn't being boyish enough. Likewise, we'd tease them about being girlie-men.

So CDs face a double dose of prejudice. First we must be "unmanly" for wanting to put on a dress. Second, since the only image most of the public has of men in dresses are drag queens (or ******* porn), they assume we must be gay.

I ran across an interesting study on attitudes toward CDs done on the usual college sophomores at a Midwest universary, tracking attitudes before and after seeing some speaking from Tri-Ess. Surprisingly, it was the male students who showed the greatest change towards acceptance, much more than the women (although overall the women were still more accepting). From the students' comments, apparently once the male students were convinced the two speakers were hetro and otherwise good family guys, they decided CDing was a bit odd, but not really different than other sorts of hobbies.

Another factor is a number of people (both male and female) have fairly rigid ideas about what's the "right" and "wrong" to behave, both in terms of sexual morality and gender roles. CDing bends those rules in ways they find disturbing. Similar to the way gays disturb them. In a way, we're like bisexuals (who face prejudice from both straights and gays) because our existance implies that roles can be a bit blurrier than people would like to think. Plus since we can move between roles there's a bit of the "enemy within" paranoia. We literally can be the person next door.

Jen_TGCD

08-21-2005, 02:05 AM

...because our existance implies that roles can be a bit blurrier than people would like to think.

:clap: This makes the most sense to me. Most people can only think of gender in terms of "opposites"... boy/girl; male/female; masculine/feminine. To consider that there is anything "in between" is uncomfortable and confusing.

I have to admit that I am still a bit self-conscious around effeminate men. I am always gracious but my mind somehow conflicts with the male I'm looking at and the feminine actions being projected. :strugglin Now, if this same person is dressed like a female... my mind says that all is well! I'm used to seeing and being around CDs but have less contact with effeminate males.

So, that "conflict" may be what makes the general public ill at ease. When there is conflict within someone, they either... ignore it (pretend it doesn't exist) -or- they get angry.

Also... for those that would like to know more about Gender Activisim, either go to Google (or another search engine) and type in Transgender Activist or Gender Activist and you will find a lot to explore on what has already been done to make gender expression a legal right, as well as, promoting public awareness. And, do not ignore the GLBT or GLBTIQ sites. Yes, they are Gay and Lesbian but they are also legislating for Transgender and Gender Rights. Some quick links are:

GenderPAC - The national organization working to ensure every American's right to express their gender free from stereotypes, discrimination, and violence.
www.gpac.org (http://www.gpac.org)

National Transgender Advocacy Coalition - The nation's preeminent Transgender civil rights organization
www.ntac.org (http://www.ntac.org/)

Transgender Crossroads - News and Views From the Midwest
www.tgcrossroads.org (http://www.tgcrossroads.org)

GenderTalk
www.gendertalk.com (http://www.gendertalk.com)
This is the website of GenderTalk radio, as well as a transgender activism resource and information archive maintained by Nancy Nangeroni. GenderTalk is the leading worldwide weekly radio program that talks about transgenderism in the first person. Each week we present news, information, and exciting new voices that challenge our traditional view of gender -- and more.

Rachael Warren

08-21-2005, 04:01 AM

Having read through all of the posts in this excellent thread, I felt that maybe this would be worthy of thought.

In genealogy it is said that after ten generations, everyone is, in someway, related to everyone else.

If this is the case then If we all come out to our closest family members, and continue to be loving and caring people towards them, attitudes will gradually change. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but change will come about.

I sincerely hope that my children don't see me as some sexual deviant, and trust that their attitude to others like me that they may encounter in life will be the same.

From what I have read, we represent anything from between 1 in 10 and 1 in 1000 of the male population, if you think about it, that is even at the highest estimate, a large number of people, worldwide, so in just a couple of generations acceptance could begin to emerge. Remaining completely in the closet doesn't help our plight!

Isn't this what has happened for the Gay community over the last several decades? Society is slowly becoming far more tolerant of this minority, true the AID's issue helped to publicise and accelerate this change, but a few brave individuals started that ball rolling decades ago.

People are fearful of what they don't know or understand. If someone has never met a Gay person, the may adopt a stereotypical image of one, If they have known one first hand from friendship or family, they will see the person, not the "problem".

I, for one, don't need acceptance from society, I have what I need already, acceptance from my family!, acceptance from society would be a bonus. ;)

I have done my little bit for the cause, now it's up to you..........

Just my 0.02 worth.

Lots of love, Rachael. :)

Wendy me

08-21-2005, 06:33 AM

You know I have to drop my two cents in here. And I stick by this. WE know why we get a negative image, but I feel the public should be the ones that review these things more indepth. Preaching to each other doesn't do much to educate 'them', since most of us know all these things. We're not the ones being intolerant and looking at ourselves as a negative bread of human being, they are. We see things in their true perspectives. It is our job to educate those that 'close' their eyes to anything that doesn't fit the stereotype image. The public needs to see why it is a negative they see and that there is a positive hidden due to their prejudice against us.

all too true but frist as i have said we need to be out in their eyes dressed or not but rather being that person or persons that get involved that speake up , you know we all know the people that speake and it commands the proples around them to listen ...be positive be forward and speake louldy let your voice and actions ...not go unnoticed ... that someone or someones are people that stand out not saying hay i cd but rather thay stand out because thay are possitive , thay are full of life ... thay breathe in life and it can be seen and felt by those around them ....talking to the people here to convence them is a waste of time ...think abought it we all want for people to understand us ...who hopes that thay won't ???? so were we neen to go is out to the veary people and show that we are people that are to be listened to then through that we can spread our message ....till your seen as someone that their voice matters on what ever issue then no one will hear you .....get out and talk to people anyone ....everyone...i talk to everyone i see mostly chitt chatt be talk and be heard ....rember no one will listen to you if you don't talk to them ................

MarinaTwelve200

08-21-2005, 07:41 AM

Besides all the reasons already mentioned, here's a couple more reasons.

In America culture (can't speak for others) manhood is often defined less by what you are, but rather what you aren't: not female, not gay. Especially during the past 30 years when gender roles have been changing so rapidly. As Joe Jackson once asked in a song: (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/j/joe-jackson/72749.html)

What’s a man now - what’s a man mean
Is he rough or is he rugged
Is he cultural and clean

When we were boys we'd taunt other about being homosexual long before we knew what that was. What we really meant was another boy wasn't being boyish enough. Likewise, we'd tease them about being girlie-men.

Seriously though, Therin lies the problem, at least in MY opinion.---many, if not most people STILL think homosexuality means the above--They didnt know what it was when they were kids and they STILL dont know as adults. They never got their facts straight.

Even the "defining quality" of homosexuality, guys having sex with other guys, which they may be aware of now, is often thought of as just another ancilliary aspect of gay guys only added to the list. The comments like "throw the kid a football", "Send him to military school"--or actions like cancelling crossdress day at highschool because "it promotes homosexuality" prove my point.--people who hold these opionions think "gay"is a locally defined "manhood" issue--a carry over from childhood.

To THEM a CDer IS GAY---and has all the negative aspects of their ideas about homosexuality, froma 'disgusting lack of "manhood" to a propensity to sexually abuse children projected upon them.

Often I attack this problem on a case by case basis. When I hear a friend, relative or aquaintance taunt a another person or talk about a person being "gay" in a mistaken or derisive way, I usually play dumb and flat out ask them "How is THAT (whatever they said) gay? " I'll listen to their nonsense and follow up with another question, "Do you even KNOW what "gay" means?" ---Then I'll give them the textbook definition, and shake my head in a frendly , but condescending manner and comment under my breath "I wonder where U got that idea?"

My hope is to embarrass them with the fact that they are not all THAt "sexually knolwledgable" after all, and suggest that they may have been publicly making a fool of themselves in this respect by such comments over the years----A realization that might "shock " them into hitting the books to get their facts straight. Hey this actually WORKS ---sometimes, but only for one person at a time.

susiej

08-21-2005, 11:44 AM

Ladies, I think that fear is a major factor in "straight america's" attitude toward us.

In particular, "Joe Sixpack" out there, a regular, "normal", conservative kind of guy, has a hard time coming to grips with the very possibility that the girl he meets at a bar might turn out to be a transvestite. This is really compelling. Gwen Araujo was murdered for this (google her name if you've not heard of her).

The very possibility that Joe will find himself attracted to another man scares the :censor: out of him. In order to eliminate the possibility, Joe wants to be guaranteed that everybody who looks feminine on the outside, is a GG on the inside, "the way God intended".

Joe Sixpack's sexual insecurity and fear -- his problems -- manifest as oppressive and derisive attitudes toward tv's -- our problem. To solve our problem, we have to solve his, by allaying his fears. No doubt this is a tall order, and I don't have a clue how to begin in our case, but there's hope: the gay community is doing it. 30 years ago, many in "straight america" still believed that gays wanted to "recruit" our children -- now we have "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" on television.

Hugs,
Susie

Nyx

08-21-2005, 12:17 PM

30 years ago, many in "straight america" still believed that gays wanted to "recruit" our children

This is a bit out of topic, but unfortunately some do. I have had a certain amount of pressure from gays and bisexuals myself... Even though I'm not in contact with them that much, and now there is an increasingly popular idea that people should just try every sexual thing they can. And you see people encouraging straight kids to "experiment" gay sex. I also find alot of gays are trying to simply confuse heterosexuals with some forms of propaganda. Spreading ideas such that people who don't like gays must be gay themselves in order to keep them silent.

Personally, if *we*, as crossdressers, want to make a difference, I say the first step is around us. I have already told many of my close friends about this. Most of them accepted it without problems. They know I'm not a weirdo. And if their reaction had been to run away from me, then screw them, they weren't real friends. Girls generally accept this especially well, for the most part. What I am saying is, the best way to maker a difference is to tell your friends. You don't have to dress in front of them, you don't have to show them pictures, but you can make a difference just by making people understand that crossdresser does not mean perverted gay drag queen ******* murderer freak, basically.

Helana

08-22-2005, 01:41 AM

Marina

You make an excellent point, it does not matter to joe average whether we are attracted to men or not, the fact that we have choosen to reject machoness and delight in everything feminine immediately makes us homosexuals.

Nor does it matter if we can convince them that we are in fact hetrosexual, in many ways that just makes us even worse. At least if you are gay you have an excuse for acting feminine, while we have no "legitimate" excuse at all.

We cannot win against ignorance. The ignorant have no desire to be educated as they already believe they know the "natural" order of things.

Getting rid of this attitude is nearly impossible. The initiation of boys into the macho role of manhood is so pervasive everywhere in all cultures that no matter how much educational material you put out, there will always be strong opposition from the intolerant which unfortunately seems to be focused around religious viewpoints. In our case it will not be sufficient to make the public aware of us, awareness will not overcome belief based intolerance.

Sweet Jeanette

08-26-2005, 10:15 PM

katrinafltg

08-27-2005, 09:43 AM

well, regardless of the general public's attitude the fact of the matter is that we live in America and we have a great deal of personal freedom here. Its not illegal to crossdress. If you want to go out in public, its your right. Some tg's do this and they don't care one fig about what the crowd thinks.

I don't really care about the feelings of the "general public." I find them to be boring and banal. I've always gravitated to the fringe elements of society for stimulus and conversation. I am not a complete misanthrope. I live in the city and I like being surrounded by human beings.

I do not dress and go out among the general public. Why bother? They wouldn't appreciate it and I don't need the negative attention. There are plenty of places for tg's to socialize and mingle, both commercial and private. Most people end up choosing only a few places to socialize anyway so what's the difference?

Employment can be a sticky issue but if you are a college graduate and a successful worker and you live in an urban area you're probably not going to be affected by your crossdressing even if it is known. As long as you don't throw it in people's faces. People can be surprisingly tolerant when you keep your eccentricities out of the work place. Society is very permissive these days. People are doing all kinds of wild things right now and as a result many are tolerant of other people's desires and interests.

Of course the rednecks and the lower classes are hostile to tg's, gays, etc. Who cares? I don't socialize with those people. I have no desire to dress up and go to some country bar. I would turn on a lot of those guys which would make them angry and the women would be pissed because they could sense someone was intruding on their territory.

Which is understandable. I've worked with people of low education and intellect. Since the men don't have much of an interest in the intellectual life their women must rely almost purely on their sexuality to draw and maintain interest. The last thing they want is a tg competitor especially if she looks good. its probably a galling reminder of the weakness of their position.

One good thing about being tg is that it is a great motivator to succeed in life. Succesful people are the most tolerant. They have what they want and they are happy. They don't want to spoil their happiness by wasting energy on hating people who are having no effect on their own happiness.

there will always be some negative jerk but this is unavoidable and life is not perfect. You are not going to get along with everyone. some people will dislike you no matter how "normal" you are. Fine. As long as they keep their manners.

We live in a sort of demimonde which is fine with me. I like it. Its like being part of a secret society. I have no desire to be "accepted" by society at large because, again, I consider society at large to uninteresting.

Remember that we have come a long way. It is not illegal to crossdress. Not to long ago walking around in a dress would have landed you in a jail cell. There are laws in place to protect us from hate crimes as well as violence in general. If you get beat up because you wore a dress to a motorcycle rally, that' s your fault.

Don't fret because we "should" be able to dress whenever and wherever we please. Its like those girls who whine because they feel they "should" be able to jog at any time of day or night in any part of town they please. You have to deal with reality.

I think what's important is that tg's learn to be comfortable with themselves at an early age. I don't think its important to be "open" with your parents. If they can handle it, great! If not, who cares? I'm an adult and I don't need my parents approval to live my life.

Its especially important to be open with women in a serious relationship. its not fair to you or her to keep secrets.

I dont' tell every friend or acquaintance I have. A few know and the rest I prefer to keep in the dark. Its something beyond them and what's worse than experiencing revulsion is attracting the interest of people you want nothing to do with. You'd be amazed at how many guys will come on to you if you let them know you're a tg. People are bored and tg's are something novel and exciting.

Be happy with yourself. Its the most important thing.

I know I sound like an arrogant bitch but I don't have time for small minded block heads. I can be the sweetest person in the world but do not unload your personal bullcrap on me. My natural mindstate is one of happiness and I get very peeved when someone tries to get me to join them in their misery.

I believe in Love