The war between the pants and skirts

[Renelle]

I’ve received some interesting responses to a question I posed in the Ask the GG’s section. It’s about the skirts versus pants (trousers, if you’re British) identification. I’d like to open it up to everyone. (Yes, even you Transmasculine guys).

If as Cder’s, we identify skirts and dresses as feminine, then aren’t we by definition, making a moral judgment on what a woman “should” be? If a woman wears pants, is she somehow less feminine? Aren’t we being just as judgmental, and Chauvanistic, as the “civilians” who judge us for what we wear to define ourselves?

In fact, it could be that we are the worst offenders. It seems to me, and I include myself in this, “We have met the enemy, and they is us.“

Thoughts anyone?

[msginaadoll]

Renelle, you definitely have a point there. I had a difficult time wearing pants because I thought it wasn't feminine. That was at least for me. As I get older however I realize that whatever feminity I have comes from inside me. that I can wear pants, skorts, short, kilts, capris, whatever and that does not take away or diminish who I am. I still want to look cute however-but pants work as well as skirts. It is easy sometimes to confuse the clothes on ourselves with what makes a woman or man, etc. As India Arie sings, "I am not my hair...."

[Gerrijerry]

I wear more slacks and Jeans then I do skirts and dresses. I don't think anyone sees me as a male when I wear womans jeans or womans slacks. In fact I have found that I fit in more with what normal woman wear most of the time. YOu should look around at what woman wear and when they wear it.

[Sarah_GG]

If as Cder’s, we identify skirts and dresses as feminine, then aren’t we by definition, making a moral judgment on what a woman “should” be? If a woman wears pants, is she somehow less feminine? Aren’t we being just as judgmental, and Chauvanistic, as the “civilians” who judge us for what we wear to define ourselves?

Excellent point! There are regularly posts that denigrate women for wearing pants, trainers, sweatshirts etc.

[Rianna Humble]

I agree that if we condemn anyone for wearing trousers, then we are doing what we dislike in others.

Trousers are fine in their place - whether that place be on one of my GG friends or colleagues or on the rack. It's just that they don't suit me - when I first came out at work, I agreed a compromise where I would wear jeans and a top but colleagues told me I'd look better in a skirt or a dress and they were right, I do.

For me the watchword is acceptance. I want others to accept me for who I am and I'm willing to accept others for who they are.

If I'm asked for my opinion on a friend's choice of clothing, I always try to find something positive to say about it, although I sometimes add "but I don't think it would suit me".

[joaniecd]

Lets not be judgmental. Pants , slacks, trousers, skirts, they are all clothes. We wear what we want and looks good on us.
Women have for years worn mans clothing and it has been accepted. They wore mans jeans until the mfg's found they could make more money by putting some extra stitching on them and calling them woman's jeans . Then we liked the look and started wearing woman's jeans.
I do like the feel of a nice pant suit, the way the slacks hang . In the summer I do tend to wear more skirt suits. Mfg's are now starting to mfg intersex clothing. Soon we can dress same as our partner or SO. i say Dress in whatever feels good.

[Kate Simmons]

I dunno, what folks wear is a personal preference, gender notwithstanding. It is just clothes after all and they do not change who we are as people or biologically. War? Secret one maybe. Marvel already had that.:battingeyelashes::)

[Super Amanda]

It's really a war of crossdressers vs. the idea of femininity, IMO.

Being a little younger, my whole life dresses have basically been out of style for woman's casual fashion.

It seems like the "dress and hose ONLY" types are generally a bit older, most likely remembering women their whole lives wearing dresses and skirts. I think they may have a subconscious aversion to dresses because of that. I mean, in my childhood in the 80's, women were already not wearing dresses so much, except for toddler girls that is, so to me a cute pair of jeans can, and is most times more feminine.

So the REAL "pants vs. skirts" war ended like over 30 years ago, IMO.

[Renelle]

I just have to think that a lot of us here (again, me included) are making the same type of judgment, only opposite, as the rest of the world does.

I've found that underdressing to go outdoors produces a similar effect as wearing skirts and heels indoors. But again, underclothes are just clothes, they're not me. If this is an inner femininity and not just a fetish, wouldn't I (we) be able to feel feminine even in men's clothes? Or, maybe I (we) just need an extra boost.

[Annalise]

Good point here. I so feel more womanly and sexy and girl like in a dress or skirt but also I think for me, it is because I think I look better in a skirt than pants because I have no hind quarters in pants :/

[BRANDYJ]

A moral judgment? NO WAY! I think a woman should be just the way they are in pants, shorts, dresses, skirts, nude or a burlap bag if they prefer. How does my choice or preference in what I wear make a moral judgement in what a woman should be? I don't get your point at all. It is so far fetched. Almost as far fetched as to say a woman in a pretty dress is also making the same moral judgement as to what all women should be.

Sorry, I don't agree with this premise at all. In no way do I feel a woman is less woman simply because she wears pants, jeans or trousers. I never think of what a woman should be based on what she wears. It would be judgmental if I said, that woman looks stupid, ugly wrong or whatever simply because I don't like her in pants.
If, and I do mean "IF"...I felt or said that a woman belongs ONLY in a dress or skirt, then I'd be chauvinistic and judgmental.
I in fact love the look of a good looking woman in pants, jeans, shorts or whatever.
It's easy to see why most of us CD's want to wear skirts an dresses instead of pants of any type. In the first place, it is definitely garments that in most societies are strictly for women. So we want to identify with dresses and skirts as being more feminine because we are trying to feel, look and maybe act like a woman. We can and do wear pants most of the time, so we would not have that special feel of a skirt or dress on our bodies and legs.
this is like saying we put on makeup and are making a moral judgment that all women should wear makeup! Fortunately, there are many women that do not need a bit of makeup to appear feminine. That can't be said for 97+% of us CD's Bluntly, we NEED makeup to appear feminine. most women don't That surely does not suggest we are making a moral judgment or being chauvinistic. It boils down to simple choice in what makes us look and feel feminine. Pants just don't do it for me. I prefer the look and feel of a dress or skirt.

Women are beautiful in anything they wear. They make it look good and right on them.
A man without a wig, makeup and perhaps growing a beard and mustache and maybe even bald, simply would look ugly, stupid, funny, freakish and out of place in a dress or skirt..to most of us. Even us CD's!

So call me judgmental for that last statement about how I feel a man looks in a dress if not trying to look totally female, then you can call me judgmental at least but chauvinistic?

I like to wear makeup, dresses, skirts, bras, slips, hose and heels with absolutely no moral judgement at all as to how a woman should be. Of course society will do that to me. And I accept that and understand it.

[sissystephanie]

As for my self, I wear whatever feminine clothing I feel like wearing. I dress for myself, not for the rest of the world! And I don't think it make much difference to other people anyway! I do wear jeans, ladies ones, Karren! But I probably more likely to wear a skirt or skort. As I said, I wear what I like.

[StaceyJane]

I admit it, I love skirts.

I guess it is because I can wear pants anytime and I do have a pair of womens pants my wife gave me because they were too big for her. To me those are just another pair of pants, nothing special.

Skirt really do help me feel like a woman.

[lilmissjenny]

i feel just as comfortable wearing a skirt as i do a pair of jeans.

[ColbyInTx]

I don't think it's a question of whether pants mean you're not feminine, rather that pants are less feminine to us than skirts or dresses because we, as men, can wear pants every day.

I think a woman can look just as feminine and sexy in the right pants as she can in a dress or skirt. However, I think we CDers do not envision ourselves as feminine in a pair of pants. :2c:

[Renelle]

originally posted by BrandiJ

... it is definitely garments that in most societies are strictly for women. So we want to identify with dresses and skirts as being more feminine because we are trying to feel, look and maybe act like a woman.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to point a finger at anyone. I'm thinking out loud about my own motivations and what may or may not be true.

If we say that we identify with women by wearing their clothes, and then turn around and say women should not be defined by what they wear, then aren't we promoting a stereotype? It seems to me that any inner-feminity we claim to have, would be present in either syle of clothes.

[PretzelGirl]

I don't think it's a question of whether pants mean you're not feminine, rather that pants are less feminine to us than skirts or dresses because we, as men, can wear pants every day.

I think a woman can look just as feminine and sexy in the right pants as she can in a dress or skirt. However, I think we CDers do not envision ourselves as feminine in a pair of pants. :2c:

I would be careful with the broad brush. There are many of us that can feel plenty "feminine" (whatever you define it as) in a pair of jeans. Just read other posts in this thread where ladies say they wear pants and it feels right. I went to a movie, dinner, and a Tri-Ess meeting with my wife and daughter on Friday while wearing jeans and a nice pink top. I felt plenty "feminine" and had a real nice and relaxing time.

Now, I am not saying that there are many that only want to wear skirts and dresses. But we are all the same in that we are different. Just like snowflakes!

[Kate Lynn]

Personally I prefer womens low rise jeans and skinny jeans over a dress or skirt,even just in the house,I do own a couple skirts and dresses,but usually wear them after a shower.
I don't try to be feminine any more,I just no longer see a point in it at this stage of my life,especially after a person in the crossdresser chat refered to me as a,"YUCK",because of how I prefer to dress.

[Toni_Lynn]

Oh wow! Do I have to throw a curve ball at the whole thing. I have declared that every Sunday from now on will be kilt day for me. In fact, to be quite honest, when I'm in boy mode I quite like wearing my kilt.

So here I am today in Wal*Mart, buying groceries, toothpaste, etc .. in boy mode .. and in my McLaren tartan kilt ... BTW - I now own 3 kilts and am working on number 4. Been out and about at concerts, the theatre, museums, Home Depot, whilst kilted.

Do I feel particularly masculine whilst kilted? No. Do I feel feminine whilst kilted? No. All in all, I still feel like me, the perfect mix of boy and girl.

Has anyone made a snarky remark to me about being kilted. Truthfully in a year of kilt wearing, no. In fact I've had more people than I thought might be interested about what was worn beneath the kilt ... the answer to which is "nothing, its all in working order".

If one is of the stripe that says 'girls can wear anything and no one says anything, but boys can't ...' then I have a) either proven your point, in as much as I'm a girl, albeit a CDer, or b) totally dis-proven it.

Now one might say, if you are going to go through all that, wearing a kilt, just to wear a 'skirt', then why bother, just wear a skirt. To them I say 'pshaw :brolleyes:'

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[Michelle-Leigh]

Ain't no kind of clothing gonna make anyone feminine unless they feel and act the part ! It's who, not what you put on !

[bianca66]

Red opened toe pumps an pink cords or black heels and low cut jeans with a flower on the pocket makes me feel just as femine...Jeans with a low heel going through the mall or shopping tends to blend in better than with high heels/nylons and a skirt.

[Kayla Shadows]

I hear the pants and skirts debate a lot.Like,why crossdress if your wearing pants.I dont think somebody is going to see you in full makeup,heels,a womens top and whatever and say,oh,your wearing pants,your not really crossdressing.I have womens jeans that no "man" would step into even though they are just jeans.Designs,hearts,stones,tight to a nice flare.Some jeans are absolutely flattering and cute.I have nothing against pants.Just "rules".I identify womens clothes as crossdressing.If its made for women,have fun with it.Dont throw yourself in another box just because people that arent you define things as such.

[Joanne f]

I do not think it is quite that simple as Pants/Trousers= masculine and skirts= feminine, as you can get very feminine trousers and masculine looking skirts, it is more in the way something acts accompanied with looks that makes it feminine or masculine than the item it`s self and on top of that you can have a very feminine person wearing something masculine which will still keep that person feminine the same as someone who is very masculine will still look masculine in something feminine.
The movements/looks of the person overrides the given gender of the items being worn.

[bredalee25]

Personally for me it's not the way that a skirt or dress makes me feel when I wear it it's more the fact that pants jeans or slacks are things I can wear as a guy in public skirts and dresses I can't wear in public only in private at home.

I think we as CD's identify with skirts and dresses as being for girly and wear them for that reason. I find myself wearing leggings more now for comfort more then feeling femme

[Cheryl T]

Personally I don't see anything "masculine" about a nice pair of slacks or feminine jeans. I find that many styles of slacks are quite feminine and sexy, especially with a nice pair of heels. I have a personal fondness for Palazzo pants which I feel are quite sexy.
I do agree that some are prejudiced towards skirts and dresses as was evidenced in a conversation with a sister at a Tri-Ess meeting one night. The subject came around to wearing skirts and dresses and such and her comment was ... "isn't that why we do this?", to which I immediately answered No. Another time she stated, "I can wear jeans anytime as a guy, why would I want to wear them as a girl?"

More and more I find myself in a nice pair of jeans or slacks, as most women do these days, unless I am going somewhere "dressy". In those instances I prefer a nice skirt or dress. Around the house it's always jeans as they are more functional for daily activity.

Just my tastes I suppose...:2c:

[Rianna Humble]

If this is an inner femininity and not just a fetish, wouldn't I (we) be able to feel feminine even in men's clothes?

In my case, it's not that wearing men's clothing makes me feel less feminine. My problem is that wearing those is associated with pretending to conform to the male gender stereotype.

Whether I am forced to pretend to be "him" or free to express my inner self, I still know that I am a woman trapped in the wrong body.

[Fab Karen]

It's a minority who talk that way about GG's. Personally I wear what looks good on me, and makes me feel good. Even if I wanted to wear them, I couldn't get my legs into those tight girl-jeans.

[Alice Torn]

Until about 1967, girls and women wore skirts and dresses, most of the time, including nurses, teachers, almost all professions. It was a more pretty world, then! However, as some have asserted, some trousers are feminine, and look nice on some ladies. There is another gurl that has a strong, and funny opinion on this, and hope she posts.

[Traci Elizabeth]

I don't think you have a valid point whatsoever.

All we are trying to do is to assimilate with what other females wear. It does not matter what is it they wear from cardboard boxes, military uniforms, space suites or whatever.

We are simple mimicking their style. I don't think it is any more complicated than that.

To assume anything else is really just fishing for "nonsense."

[erika130]

This is a good point
For me, it comes down to how a woman presents herself, be it she's wearing pants or a skirt,
For instance I have totally seen women whom I think are very feminine or present themselves as very feminine & are wearing pants, & they looked sexy I might add, while at the same time women who wore skirts and to me just didn't seem feminine at all

[Carly D.]

To me, I prefer wearing a skirt or dress, and the only pants I wear are those exercise type of spandex goodies.. I don't believe that because I prefer skirts or dresses that I think women should only be seen wearing this.. I don't mind women wearing a pants type of clothing.. But to me, I don't feel like I am cross dressing if it doesn't include pantyhose, heels and skirt.. That is mostly where it all starts for me anyway..

[Elle1946]

You said "If as Cder’s, we identify skirts and dresses as feminine", it isn't the Cder's that made that definition, it is the general population. That is why Cder's have such a problem wearing that attire in public.

[Veronica Nowakowski]

I never had an issue with wearing women's pants, do it often.

[Frédérique]

If as Cder’s, we identify skirts and dresses as feminine, then aren’t we by definition, making a moral judgment on what a woman “should” be? If a woman wears pants, is she somehow less feminine? Aren’t we being just as judgmental, and Chauvanistic, as the “civilians” who judge us for what we wear to define ourselves?

No, I’m not making any sort of moral judgment. It’s nice to see a woman wearing a skirt or dress now and then, but it’s their choice if they want to or not. The fact is, they CAN wear these garments and “pass” through life without censure, while we MtF crossdressers cannot. I simply like skirts, so I like to wear skirts, and you are free to draw your own conclusions…:straightface:

Is a woman less feminine if she wears pants? This is a ridiculous question, and you need to assess things on a deeper level, my dear. What is your definition of femininity? You can accurately make the case that I am less masculine because I am an MtF crossdresser (I’m telling you so), but you cannot and should not generalize about people, especially your fellow crossdressers. The reasons for wearing the “wrong” clothing are complex and many – it’s not so much an effort to “define” oneself as it is an ongoing mode of expression for one’s internal gender integration. Can you dig it? Whether a woman chooses to wear a skirt or not is completely irrelevant – look within yourself, beyond external appearance, and discover the truth…

[Renelle]

Glad you chimed-in Frederique.


look within yourself, beyond external appearance, and discover the truth…

That's exactly what I'm attempting. One thing I'm picking up from the Ask the GG's and Inquiring Minds sections is that if we CD's were true to ourselves, we would feel the same regardless of what we wear, just as women do. The fact that we may feel more feminine in one thing and not another gives credence to the idea that we are creating another woman in their place. One of the questions about myself that I hope to answer is, "Is this something within me, or am I creating a poor substitute for something I don't have.


Is a woman less feminine if she wears pants? This is a ridiculous question

I only ask it rhetorically. And yet the question remains, if she is not less feminine, then why are we more feminine while wearing a skirt?


it’s not so much an effort to “define” oneself as it is an ongoing mode of expression for one’s internal gender integration. Can you dig it?

Yes, I think I can. I don't ask these things to offend. I think the GG's raise some valid points in their skepticism of us and we would do well to check our own motivations.

[Tina B.]

Frederique, thank you for putting my thoughts to words, I could never have said it so well.
Tina B.

[Ze]

In response to all of your questions, Renelle: yes. :D

[dominique]

For me I prefer wearing skirts, but sometimes wear trousers. I might have an old idea that women should wear skirts but thats my opinion. I feel much more of a woman when I wear skirts. Personal preference. You can wear what you want, its up to the person and how they feel.

[sherri52]

I find it hard to relate because I wear all things feminine and feel the same because I wear them. I'm in fem jeans all day long and switch to dresses at night or maybe a nice pair of slacks. A woman is feminine as long as she perceives herself as such. If she choses to dress like a man, she may not be less feminine but she will no have that look

[Sarah Doepner]

For a very long time I wouldn't consider wearing pants as a crossdressing item. I felt that a) I could wear pants anytime, b) I've got a lot of ground to make up where I couldn't crossdress and, c) If I'm going to present as a female I'd better use every feminine cue possible, hair, forms, makeup and something with skirts.

I've found that as I've become more comfortable with my crossdressing that my eyes have been opened to the world of pants. I have 8 or 10 pair that range from jeans to a pink flowing pair with legs that are almost skirts. With heels any of them are as feminine (in my mind) as any skirt or dress I have. Still, if I have the time and option, I'll go with a skirt.

[Stitch]

Wow, my pet peeve in the GG inquiring minds spawned its own thread. Awesome. I'm honoured you found my post such an insight. :heehee:

Now I realise that many of you don't hold these sentiments but I have come across countless posts on this forum where some gals seem to think that today's women aren't as feminine as the ones in the past, and seem to glorify the clothes from older eras. "GGs don't wear enough pantyhose." "GGs don't wear enough dresses" "GGs don't wear enough heels" At the end of the day we dress how we want to dress and I feel very sexy in my tight fitting trousers. I feel they show off my curves far better than any skirt. I don't wear heels either, but I feel very cute and happy. If I went from some of the views here, I'm hardly a women at all and that saddens me. Thankfully this views are a minority.

I also hate when someone says "that GGs who wear trousers are cross dressing." What year is this? I feel plenty feminine in trousers and have never had any complaints from Men.

:) Thanks for hearing out my rant.

[Ze]

but I feel very cute and happy.

Because you are and then some. ;)

[Stitch]

Because you are and then some. ;)

Aww Thanks Ze. :o From you that means a great deal to me.

[Karen564]

As a TS woman and since living 24/7, I practically live in my jeans, but they are just low-rise skinny leg jeans, and I love them because there so soft & comfey...
But if crossdressers or anyone for that matter wants to think I'm less of woman or feminine for wearing them, then so be it....for I could care less what they think...

I'll still wear what I want, since I still feel very feminine no matter what clothes I'm wearing..I just don't need clothes anymore..:heehee:

But come summer, I'll be either wearing some shorts & skirts, but only because their cooler..so it's all about comfort for me, not to be someones eye candy..

[Loni]

what does femininity have to do with what one wears? dress/skirt/jeans/shorts?
i have seen many a man in full boy mode and he was quite feminine, and i have seen many a lady in a dress, skirt, jeans nowhere close to feminine.

as others hare have stated it is not what you have on, it is how you act and believe inside that matters.

me i feel like a lady whether in a skirt or my skinny jeans. but then i also ware my skinny jeans even in boy mode as they just fit better then the baggy stuff in the stores.

.

[DonnaT]

I don't pass judgment on what anyone wears.

I just know what feels good to me, and trousers just don't do it for my gal side. Neither do t-shirts, for that matter.

[TGMarla]

I always wear skirts and dresses. But I admit that the primary reason for this, other than the fact that I absolutely love wearing dresses, is that as a man, I am not allowed to wear them. Same goes for high heels, hosiery, pretty jewelry, and the like. I can toss a pair of pants on any time I want to, but dresses are a treat. So if I am going to take the effort to get all femmed out, I opt for wearing dresses. I do not think that women who wear pants (note: that's all of them!) are any less feminine than women who happen to be wearing a skirt or a dress. But I do admit that I wish women would opt for skirts and dresses a bit more often than they do.

[kellycan27]

One word.. practicality. I wear dresses or skirts when the situation warrants, and jeans when it doesn't

[Lynn Marie]

What I wear has nothing at all to do with any judgement I may have of what women should or should not wear! It's simply what looks and feels good on me. I have a fantasy of the '50s woman and I like to look like that and more to feel like that. I also have more modern clothes that I like the feel of most importantly and the look of also.

To me, two of the most important aspects of the CD experience is how the clothes feel on my body and how the clothes make me look in my mirror. Both aspects are exciting and enjoyable to me and me alone. There is no judgement.

Now if you're talking about stockings verses pantyhose, then I've got some some serious judgements!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LOL

[Renelle]

Originally posted by Ze

In response to all of your questions, Renelle: yes.

Thanks for the positive reinforcment. I was wondering when the cavalry was going to come over the hill.

Originally posted by Stitch

Wow, my pet peeve in the GG inquiring minds spawned its own thread. Awesome. I'm honoured you found my post such an insight.

Well, being an old-fashioned, partially sexist admirerer of the Romantic era, I often find women to be inspirational. It's just who I am.

I think you raise an important and often times glossed over issue. I think there is, at least on a subconscious level, an association with skirts being a feminine expression along with the flip side of pants with masculinity. If anyone doesn't think so, then ask yourself this:

If skirts are not feminine, then why don't transmasculine men wear them?

Let's face it, skirts are feminine. This is where so many CDers seem to run into trouble with their GG SO's. Especially if she wears pants (trousers) most of the time, as many do. From her point of view, her skirt wearing SO is an affront to her own sense of self worth. We CDers are inadvertantly insulting GG's in our feeble attempts to find a feminine sense of ourselves.

It really is what is in the heart that matters. I'm coming around to the idea that the extent of my own CDing is a measure of how far I am from a true expression, not how close.

[suchacutie]

It takes a lot more than skirt/dresses or pants to define gender. I've never understood this whole topic, in all honesty.

I guess that's why I just changed out of my dress into a lovely teal blue pajama set...pants...!

:)

tina

[Renelle]

Originally posted by suchacutie

I've never understood this whole topic, in all honesty.

Don't worry. I don't get it either. I keep hearing about how we don't define ourselves by what we wear, while we constantly define ourselves by what we're wearing. There's something about the coventional wisdom around here that just doesn't add up.

[~Michelle~]

If you have good looking legs, why hide them?

[Myojine]

i like skirts becuase they are comfy, cute and easy, not becuase they are feminine

[Rianna Humble]

I just don't need clothes anymore..:heehee:[/I]

:eek: Won't you get arrested?

[Nicola2876]

I almost never wear pants en femme which is the exact reverse of my wife who wears pants everyday. I have bought women's pants before and think they can look very nice with a pair of heels. I just love skirts and dresses and I tend to wear them when I can.

[Toni_Lynn]

If skirts are not feminine, then why don't transmasculine men wear them?

If I may, I'd like to elaborate on this, and maybe get a response from Milo. Would a transmasculine man wear a kilt?

Its almost too much for me to think of before I've had a cup of coffee!

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[sometimes_miss]

I don't 'look around' and see what other people are wearing in order to decide what to wear. If I did, as a guy I'd usually be dressed as a slob. I prefer to wear what most would see as dress slacks and a dress shirt most of the time, and if temperature allows, a jacket. Sure, there's a place for polo's and khaki's: On the field. Most other places, a nice pair of slacks and a good shirt simply looks better (IMO). Just the same, I think women look better wearing a pretty dress or skirt; and while most of the GG's think 'dressy footwear' always means some form of heels, I could never subject anyone's feet to that for any length of time, I've seen what long term wearing of heels does to feet, legs and spines. They do make pretty sneakers, after all. So while I do own several pairs of high heels, my favorite outfits are mostly a skirt, pretty white top or sweater set, pantyhose, tights or stockings, and white sneakers with laces color matched to the rest of my outfit. And it's what I like to see women wear as well.

[TGMarla]

Yesterday, while servicing a client, one woman that works there mentioned while talking to another girl there that she never wore dresses. I happened to overhear, and I asked her why not. She said they just weren't for her. She said she didn't like the attention.

I smiled and said to her that if we both wore one, I'd probably get a heck of a lot more attention than she did. She laughed and said, "I'll bet!" I thought it was kind of funny, but it did shed some light on this particular topic.

Anymore, when a woman opts to wear a skirt or a dress, she often does draw attention to herself, since it is becomming more and more infrequent that women do make this clothing choice. It's a shame that it has come to this. But her point is well-taken. She simply does not wear skirts and dresses because it draws too much unwanted attention to her.

[Frédérique]

Glad you chimed-in Frederique.

I appreciate your calm civility. You must wonder where I’m coming from (so do I, at times), but thanks for the restraint…:)

I was thinking today about your OP, and then I thought about my sister, whom I live with. She is one of the most feminine people I’ve ever known, yet she never wears skirts. I imagine most women equate the garment with impracticality and vulnerability – the latter happens to describe how I feel when I’m wearing them, a sudden awareness or openness that I purposely seek out. I like it, but that's coming from a lifetime of male pants wearing. As such, I don’t (or can't) make a solid connection between skirts and femininity, but I know one thing – they force you to put your legs together and step away from masculinity in a BIG way…:battingeyelashes:

Your “war” theme is also on my mind. Didn’t skirts originate as male* battle garments, and then gradually make their way to present times, kidnapped by children, then women, for stylistic reasons? :thinking:
*Come to think of it, who else would be battling each other? :sad:

[Vickie_CDTV]

Strictly speaking, it isn't just the older set who fall into the "dress or skirt and hose only" category. I grew up and came of age in the 80s and I am in my early 30s, and I am firmly in the "dress or skirt and hose only" category.

The idealized sophisticated adult woman in the 80s, at least as I remember it, was in a skirt or dress and hose and heels and less often pants. That was the kind of woman that I desired to be at the time (Joan Collins comes to mind immediately.) I think that had a lot to do with it, though I have always considered myself to be a traditional, rather old fashioned woman as well.

[Renelle]

Calling it a war may have been overstating the case. Maybe intermittent skirmishing would have been more accurate. It looks like I opened up a can of worms, in any case.

Originally posted by Frederique

I imagine most women equate the garment with impracticality and vulnerability – the latter happens to describe how I feel when I’m wearing them, a sudden awareness or openness that I purposely seek out.

I like your idea of associating skirts with vulnerability, rather than femininity. That’s a more gender-neutral term that would’ve shed a little more light and less heat, had I realized it earlier. As if the make-up and accessories aren’t enough, I have to learn a new vocabulary too. Great.

Anyway, I’m going to have to leave it here, for now. I’m off tomorrow for a long planned vacation, away from computers and familiar scenery. Thanks to everyone who added your 2 cents (pence, if you’re British). It’s been fun and enlightening. See you next week.

[t-girlxsophie]

I have to admit I was one or the CDers who thought it less than Womanly to wear trousers,how daft a notion,Now having said that Although I do wear trousers on occasion e.g. bootleg denims and trousers.There's no beating the feeling of nice skirt or dress,with nylons and heels for me,but If I feel like having a day in trousers I know I wont spontaneously combust:D

[Satrana]

If skirts are not feminine, then why don't transmasculine men wear them?

Classic.

The pants/skirt war is a proxy battle over whether the traditional ideals of feminine are good or bad. Feminists declared that traditional femininity was bad, it signaled weakness and submissiveness to oppressive men. Modern empowered women had to break away from the past and redefine themselves. In order to show that they could compete with men and be their equals women had to accrue the elements of masculinity that supposedly made men successful and powerful - ie a career, independence, self-confidence, sexual aggressiveness and the male dress code hence the widespread abandonment of skirts and dresses.

I know of women who do not own a dress or a skirt. When such a woman finds herself in a situation where a skirt is required they remark how uncomfortable they feel. This is not a practical remark about the clothes themselves but a psychological issue over the perceived message the clothes transmit.

Ask a boy how to turn a boy into a girl and the answer will always be the same - make him wear a dress. Since all female clothes are taboo for males to wear, the association is simplistic and stark - the visual image of a woman = femininity.

This black and white viewpoint is deemed ridiculous because it is contrasted by the equally simplistic feminist notions of bad femininity. Hence we end up with the hypocritical judgement of men being demonized for using classical feminine imagery because women now distance themselves from this look because of feminist zealot ideology.

The feminist war on traditional femininity hardly stops at clothes. Housewives were similarly demonized, even the bearing of children is declared an oppressive burden.

So it is not surprising that many SOs despair when they see their partners gravitate towards traditional feminine looks, behaviors and activities that they have been pressured to cast aside themselves - because REAL women do not look or act that way.

The good news is that the internet if redefining how people think about themselves. They are listening and reacting to other people and turning a deaf ear to propaganda machines. Traditional femininity is actually a statement of strength not weakness and the younger generation are rediscovering this for themselves.

[sfwarbonnet]

From a practical standpoint, it is easier to put on and sraighten a one holer (skirt) than a two holer (pants). I use a wheelchair or scooter, and usually underdress and I need a long skirt that looks like pants when seated. Anyone know where to look?

[MargaretJ]

I've mentioned to my sister, the easiest way to spot a crossdresser, is we are the only ones wearing skirts. I love skirts, as they show of my great legs, and never really considered buying girlie trousers. However I did buy a pair of girl jeans last year, and a pair of trousers recently, to go with a skirt and jacket for the business look, and I have to admit there is something very sensual about wearing girl trousers. They also help conceal my beer gut a bit, and I have a nice looking derriere when wearing trousers. Peace has broken out in the trousers-skirts war, and we are getting along rather well now.

[clandestine322]

Very interesting point Renelle considering both sexes actually have access to both types of clothing. There are skirts for men just as there are pants for women. I want to wear a skirt/kilt just because it is less restrictive and more comfortable than pants. I am not one to think that these articles of clothing define gender. It seems the only difference is the fit. Most times pants are sewn and shaped differently for women as opposed to men.