Terminology - TG and TS ARE NOT THE SAME THING

[Super Amanda]

I just posted a comment about this, but I think it deserves a thread.

*Transgender (pronounced /trænzˈdʒɛndər/) is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from the usual gender roles.*

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender *


So pretty much everyone on this site except for SOs and admirers are transgendered, why is that so hard for some to accept?

I don't care what anyone self identifies as, I'm talking about the definition of transgendered.

I care because being a full time transsexual woman I deal with people all the time now who are very misinformed about transgendered people, and I feel like if we can't get our terms straight, how do we expect the public to? I don't care what country you're from either, when I say "homosexual", we ALL know what that is and "transgender" needs to be at that point.

I feel like many people who identify as crossdressers think there is some stigma attached to the word transgender , maybe it sounds too much like transvestite? But way more than once I've read threads here where a crossdresser says something along "I'm not a transgender, I just like to dress up" Sorry dude, but yes, you are.

I know people are gong to tell me "You can't tell me what I am" and to that I say I calls it like I sees it, meaning that every person in this world, like it or not has a label attached to them, be it "christian", "white", "single" , "brunette", "fat", etc, all labels, all true of the individuals. It's human nature to give something a name.

Here's to unity!

[kellycan27]

I am only transgendered on these boards.. to the public.. I am a woman. That's all they need to know about me. thank you very much.

Kel

[Sammy777]

I don't care what anyone self identifies as,
I'm talking about the definition of transgendered.

I care because being a full time transsexual woman I deal with people all the time now

every person in this world,
like it or not has a label attached to them.

It's human nature to give something a name.


Pardon my bluntness.
But WTF does it matter that much to you what someone ELSE cares to call THEM SELF?

So a CD'er wants to be called a TG instead.
Another CD'er doesn't like being called TG.
Drag queens don't like being called CD or TG.
"Straight" guys who have sex with men don't want to be called Gay.
I can go on, but you get the point [I hope].

I could give a rats ass what someone wants to call themselves.
Just don't call me late for dinner. :heehee:

Is a Turtle still a Turtle if someone calls it a Tortoise?

Ya, EVERYBODY has a label, and 99.999% of the time is was given to them by someone else!

How did you deal with people BEFORE you were an out TS?

Personally, I do not use the term TG,
Hell I don't even like the term TS most days.
TS [for now] does get the point across when I need it to though.

Call me crazy, But the only "labels" I am interested in are:
Ma'am, Miss, lady, girl, girlfriend and maybe someday if I'm lucky - Wife.

You want to stand up on a podium and preach to the unlistening, unlearning, uncaring masses then go right ahead. I won't stop you.

Just don't try calling me up to the mic because I will be to busy getting on with and living my life as nothing more then another woman in the crowd.

[Sheila]

I think Amandas point is not so much for the individuals understanding, but more for community awareness in the wider world ......... & I do see her point

Is a Turtle still a Turtle if someone calls it a Tortoise?
sure it is, & the tortoise still remains a tortoise, however one would treat each differently, Amanda is TS therfore ma'am, miss and maybe one day Mrs is appropriate for her along with the TG label (at the moment) .......... a part time CDER who is not TS would not like to be called Ma'am, miss, Mrs when in drab mode.

As she said she does not care what each individual SELF identifies as, but she made the point about the definition of Transgenderism and it's meaning :straightface:

[Sammy777]

Amanda is TS therfore ma'am, miss and maybe one day Mrs is appropriate for her along with the TG label (at the moment)

As she said she does not care what each individual SELF identifies as, but she made the point about the definition of Transgenderism and it's meaning :straightface:


I never said Amanda wasn't a TS,
nor somehow not deserving of the titles Ms or Mrs.

However - you can not have one without the other.
You can not say you do not care what someone labels themselves and then go on to say people need to address and adhere better to the definition of a certain label.

Either you care about "the labels" and what they mean.
Or you care about "the people" and what they want/get out of it.
You can't worry about and care for both at the same time.

That is what I am saying. :D

[Sheila]

Sammy I know you didn't :hugs:

but I think she is saying she cares about both the individual right to self identification and the label that society will view us all by ....... I am many labels daughter, wife, mother, woman, ex nurse, etc etc, but also female.

one of my exes was dad, uncle, brother, husband, farmer man etc & male

both of us humans ............. labels help people get an overall view of not just people but the groups/societies we belong to in life, so the easier & better the overall picture by definition of us by one word the better for us all ......... if we can have a positive image being portrayed in one word surely that makes life better for everyone & helps dispel some of the images of our community by the negative ones :straightface:

[subaru_forster]

Super Amanda,

Though I understand the purpose of having a common terminology, I don't believe that you got the terminology correct yourself.

You quote from wikipedia that it involves a "variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups" that deviate from gender roles, but that does not mean ALL groups. In fact, on the wikipedia article you cited, "Transgender is the state of one's 'gender identity' (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both)"

By this, the "self definition" you were quick to dismiss is truly the main relevant cornerstone. There is a meaningful difference between someone who just dresses up once in a while for fun and someone who does it just to feel "normal". The term "Transgendered" is most commonly used to refer to the latter.

The example you gave of someone who "just likes to dress up" is not transgendered, because this person, even when dressed up, still feels like his birth sex at the core of his being.

I feel that self-identification of what gender one truly feels that they are, or where on the spectrum they might lie is very important in the issue. Using language to throw away this distinction rather than to clarify it is destructive.

[Tracy_Victoria]

There are many Labels for what we do, ie is there a difference between a crossdresser, and a Transvestite. in the dictionary there is not a lot of difference, yet I prefer to be called a crossdresser over a transvestite.

ie

Transvestite really means to transpose clothes to that of the oposit gender.

Transgender, means to appear as a member of the opposite gender.

Transsexual mean to have a desire to be the opposite gender.

therefore, Crossdresser, Transvestite, and Transgender all really mean much the same thing and only transsexual means a desire to actually change totally.

Well thats my understanding of it.

[Jonianne]

Also, words will have different meanings depending on the context. Transgender is like the word Yankee. Outside of the US, everyone from the US is called a Yankee. Within the US, don't dare call someone from the south a Yankee.

It's the same with Transgender. Outside the community we are all transgender, because we like to dress and/or live in the opposite birth gender, for whatever reason. Within the community it tends to have a more narrow meaning - someone who crossdresses because they want to identify "as" or "with" the opposite sex.

[t-girlxsophie]

since I began dressing I have described myself as a Transvestite without any problem,only since coming on here,and similar sites have I been confronted by scores of ppl saying OMG thats wrong,well im sorry being defined as TV doesn't make me any less worthy than being defined as Crossdresser.I would suggest that the majority on here clearly know which label to attach to one another.we all know who is TS,and we all know the courage they possess to pursue their true self and we ALL respect and admire them for that but im afraid the non CDing world are not of a mind generally to give a rats **** what we call each other,to think any different is deluding ourselves.As a community whether TV,CD,TS etc we should be a strong,together community isn't that what we should all strive for :hugs:

[tamarav]

In the past few years of dressing for work and interacting with all types of people, I have yet to have someone ask me outright "what" I was. Sometimes I think we work hard to think up a descriptive name or label when we really just have to be ourselves. Enjoy what you are, ignore what others may think or say. Getting your blood pressure up over the acts of others isn't worth it.

[Kate Simmons]

I use titles and labels as points of reference only. The point is usually missed, however, when we think of someone as anything other than the unique individual that they are. The intentions rather than the facts are what are most often misunderstood.:)

[NiCo]

I am male before TG or TS. I am a human before male, TG or TS. I am equal regardless of what label or gender. That is all people have to know. The end.

[Billijo49504]

I classify my self as HUMAN, that's all. And trying to just live my life...BJ

[Raine]

I use to try to explain androgyny with being transgender, but many people unfamiliar with the term believe it is synonymous with transsexual.

However, although crossdressing implies transgender behaviour, identifying as a crossdresser does not imply transgender identity. Telling a crossdresser they are transgender is incorrect, under the implied context of identity. Telling a crossdresser they take part in transgender behaviour is correct. The nuance here is that crossdressers are transgender but do not always identify as such. If that's not confusing to a normal person, I don't know what is.

The general way transgender was defined makes it extremely difficult to use concisely, especially around such a sensitive topic. :doh: It's best left as an unspoken truth in favour of more concise word choice like transgender identity, as it is most often used, opposed to just transgender.

[BRANDYJ]

I don't understand why anyone is getting their panties in a wad over this simple topic. Correct definitions are important. I am a male, I am a CD, OK, call me a TV if you like, but I don't like the term. I am TG, but I am not TS. In some threads that fact is important to know so that others know where I'm coming from in a given situation. Some call themselves sissy, I hate that term and would get mad if anyone called me that. My SO is dominant, but she hates the term Mistress (so do I) So we prefer not to use that term. But I am not going to get my panties in a wad when someone tries to explain or correct the proper terminology.
For those that are TS and want to be called miss, ma'am, she, her etc. I get that and respect it and would only address them as they choose to be addressed. If I slip up and call someone something they do not like or feel is incorrect, please correct me and I would apologize and address you as you wish.
What's the big deal in trying to get terminology uniform and correct?

I live a Dominant/submissive lifestyle with my SO. Unfortunately, that lifestyle is under the broad term of BDSM. Damn, I hate that! It gives off what to me are bad connotations as to what sort of lifestyle I live. Never mind some of the far out (and to me, sick) stuff that is considered part of what people view BDSM to be.
So there is a need to understand the differences. And to do it without being rude or condescending to those that might ask or point out those differences.
Can't we all just get along?

[Kirra_Moon]

Drama! (I like drama, sometimes.)

It is my belief that is impossible to escape labels. Words/labels for the most part are symbols that refer to objects, ideas, etc. As a result, our understanding requires us to “label”. To those outside of the community transgender is a good catch-all word. But inside of the community a more precise “label” is generally used and should just be accepted. That does include the human race phrase. I just call people by whatever they want to be called.

To root to the problem is that some people have their own special connotations for the “lables” that refer to our community.

[NiCo]

Can't we all just get along?

Cup of tea? :)

[BRANDYJ]

Cup of tea? :)

But of course! Thank you. :)

[Traci Elizabeth]

Just call me "gal/woman/female." I doubt that the everyday person walking down the street has even heard of the word "Transgender." And if they have, for the most part I am sure it just went right by them.

[Sara Jessica]

There are a lot of themes here that I have expressed before, particularly the OP's comment that it is human nature to apply labels. I totally agree.

And at the same time, I understand some people's aversion to labeling. If that is one's sentiment, so be it. You'll never see me trying to apply a label to them.

To the general public, when we are out presenting as female, we don't have tags which say "cd/tv/tg/ts/whatever" (eliminating those from the mix who are lucky enough to simply be perceived as women). So people will come to their own conclusions, more often than not without any further input from the person who is being "labeled".

As for myself, I do not shy away from the label thing provided people get it right and that's where in conversation I might explain the differences between the various better-known labels and my place among them. It leads to better understanding and in my situation, my place in the wider tg world.

[kellycan27]

I care because being a full time transsexual woman I deal with people all the time now who are very misinformed about transgendered people, and I feel like if we can't get our terms straight, how do we expect the public to?


Amanda
I agree with you for the most part, and as some others have said labels have their place inside our community for the simple fact that it's always a good thing to know where someone else is coming from.
As far as labels and the trying to help the general public "understand" us, here are my thoughts and experience.
I have been out in the mainstream, living,working and playing,24/7, 365 days for close to eight years now. What I have discovered is that the people who garner anything from being educated are the same people that really don't care in the first place.. it's no big deal, they have better things to do than worry about us and what we do. Even if they just don't get the the whole concept....its no big deal. Live and let live. Reaching the the others is a bit more problematic in as much as educating goes. This people are generally of a mind set that says this is wrong and I seriously doubt that educating them is going to make them suddenly come to the realization that hey! these people are OK by me. One or two maybe, which is not a bad thing, but i don't think that we are going to reach these people for the most part.
Educating the public is a nice notion, but IMHO opinion the only way that we are going to have our place in society is by sheer force. We need to be out there right in their faces.. up close and personal. I don't mean that we have to beat them over the head with a sign, but rather show them by example. I really believe that because our TG community is so diverse that it's going to be harder for us to put together a consorted effort to educate the masses.
Just look at this group.. we are arguing amongst ourselves about how we want to be addressed.
The time has come for me personally to put away the label and try and enjoy my life just as everyone else has the right to do. That isn't to say that I wouldn't come to the aid of another member of our community, but as far a John Q.. I am here to stay and if they don't understand or don't like it.. they can pretty much KMA. I don't need to explain or justify my existence, and I refuse to do so.:2c:

kel

[carolinoakland]

" All poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles."

@ Kelly, I agree honey. Most people I've dealt with, and I deal with professionals from all over the world. They couldn't care less about what it is I'm doing with my life, as long as I do the job I'm there to do. And yes, I realize that while I do a lot of trans community work, I know that the best thing I can do for the public's perception and the trans community of what it is to be trans is to live my life. We need all the positive role models of TS's living the lives they should have had, we're women. And men. Carol

[TxKimberly]

I think that a lot of you are missing the point.

Amanda has provided the formal definition of the word "Transgender". You may choose to use that term or you may not - that's entirely up to you. Amanda has only sought to make sure that we know it's definition and frankly I applaud her for it, given how many posts I've seen that made it clear that the poster had no clue what it meant.

[Lorileah]

Labels are not important. Well except when they are needed to define something. In this case the term Transgendered needs to be defined and who it encompasses is important even if we do not like it. Let's put it into say a bill, like...oh I don't know...let's just call it ENDA for fun. If you write the bill to say it will prevent discrimination for transgendered individuals and then define TG as encompassing Transsexuals (who would have a definition) Gender Dysphoric people (another subset with its own definition) and so on and so on it makes it a lot harder for someone to line out certain subsets. If not as an umbrella term then the bill could pass for only drag queens let's say. Why? Because the people supporting the bill are afraid of transsexuals and crossdressers (who tend to hang out where they don't want them to) but DQ's because they are on stage and aren't really gender questioning but entertainers. See?

OK we don't like labels. I don't like labels in any day to day activity for the most part, but they do serve a purpose. We need to communicate with people every day. We all accept the word "human" as a set standard. There are subsets under that where people define themselves even more but as an umbrella term we are human. This is how we communicate to others. Say "dog" and people see in their minds a certain dog. Maybe the one they had when they were young. But under dog we can say German Shepherd and that makes it more specific. Does this make sense?

This subject is posted about every month I think. It always leads to "Don't call me Shirley" by someone who takes offense because they don't want to be put in a box. OK We get it. Sorry if we stepped on your toes. It always seems to be taken as someone poking a stick into a den of vipers (which are in fact a subset of snakes which is a subset of reptiles....But you immediately saw in your mind a viper not a Bull snake. Point made?)

[Dee2U]

There are subtlelies of meaning which are not carved in stone and I think we need to accept that we may each choose whether to label ourselves and what we label ourselves. I very muchprefer the lable transgender because it speaks to me (that is me, not everyone) of gender roles and behavioural characteristics as well as just appearance.....Dee

[minalost]

since I began dressing I have described myself as a Transvestite without any problem,only since coming on here,and similar sites have I been confronted by scores of ppl saying OMG thats wrong,well im sorry being defined as TV doesn't make me any less worthy than being defined as Crossdresser.I would suggest that the majority on here clearly know which label to attach to one another.we all know who is TS,and we all know the courage they possess to pursue their true self and we ALL respect and admire them for that but im afraid the non CDing world are not of a mind generally to give a rats **** what we call each other,to think any different is deluding ourselves.As a community whether TV,CD,TS etc we should be a strong,together community isn't that what we should all strive for :hugs:

I always though of myself as a TV until I found this site and discovered all the other things I could be calling meself...


Labels are not important. Well except when they are needed to define something. In this case the term Transgendered needs to be defined and who it encompasses is important even if we do not like it. Let's put it into say a bill, like...oh I don't know...let's just call it ENDA for fun. If you write the bill to say it will prevent discrimination for transgendered individuals and then define TG as encompassing Transsexuals (who would have a definition) Gender Dysphoric people (another subset with its own definition) and so on and so on it makes it a lot harder for someone to line out certain subsets. If not as an umbrella term then the bill could pass for only drag queens let's say. Why? Because the people supporting the bill are afraid of transsexuals and crossdressers (who tend to hang out where they don't want them to) but DQ's because they are on stage and aren't really gender questioning but entertainers. See?

OK we don't like labels. I don't like labels in any day to day activity for the most part, but they do serve a purpose. We need to communicate with people every day. We all accept the word "human" as a set standard. There are subsets under that where people define themselves even more but as an umbrella term we are human. This is how we communicate to others. Say "dog" and people see in their minds a certain dog. Maybe the one they had when they were young. But under dog we can say German Shepherd and that makes it more specific. Does this make sense?

This subject is posted about every month I think. It always leads to "Don't call me Shirley" by someone who takes offense because they don't want to be put in a box. OK We get it. Sorry if we stepped on your toes. It always seems to be taken as someone poking a stick into a den of vipers (which are in fact a subset of snakes which is a subset of reptiles....But you immediately saw in your mind a viper not a Bull snake. Point made?)

Thanks Lorileah, this is the best explanation of why we use (and frankly need...) lables I've heard yet. And yes, this subject does come up a lot, and always seams to make someone angry - a fact that has always puzzled me. I do not believe that anyone on these boards uses a label with any intention of insulting or degrading anyone. Without these labels, how will we be able to communicate with each other, let alone someone outside of our community?
Just my :2c:
:hugs:

[kellycan27]

I think that a lot of you are missing the point.

Amanda has provided the formal definition of the word "Transgender". You may choose to use that term or you may not - that's entirely up to you. Amanda has only sought to make sure that we know it's definition and frankly I applaud her for it, given how many posts I've seen that made it clear that the poster had no clue what it meant.

I got her point and it was good. My point was in "educating" the public. I don't feel that I have to ask anyone's permission to be me, and by educating them.. it seems like we are asking for their approval. Not gonna happen.:hugs:

Kel

[RobynBella]

Because to myself, whether I'm dressed as a boy or girl, I'm a girl :]

[Shananigans]

I did a survey at my old college to see if people knew the terms transgendered, transexual, tranvestite, and crossdresser. 70% saw them as the same definition...this was a liberal college and all responsants were in their 20s, mind you. Furthermore, the majority of the respondants associated homosexuality as synonymous with transvestite and transsexual. There's a bunch of other questions I asked, if you want to pm me. But, I just thought those results were pretty shocking.

I think that in order for people to become more tolerant and to move these issues "out of the closet," so to speak...you have to have more public awareness on gender issues. It's apparently lacking even with groups that you would think would know this stuff.

So, I think this is a good point. Even if you don't like being called TG...or, a transvestite (I know some people hate that too)...or, if you hate labels period...it's still important to raise awareness.

[JulieK1980]

A semantic point.

Did the dinosaurs die 65,000,000 years ago or 64,000,000 years ago? Does it matter today? No, not unless your a paleontologist who's job it is to know.

Unless your a psychologist, an educator, or gender therapist, your defining labels have no merit anyway.

[Sheila]

Unless your a psychologist, an educator, or gender therapist, your defining labels have no merit anyway.

cool, so it's okay to go around saying trannie then ?

[Stephanie Anne]

I have a great idea. We do like they do in cars and computer software. Just release different versions!


I think all these labels are destructive.

You don't have gay-light, gay-standard, and gay-professional so why have drossdresser, transvestite, drag(king/queen), transgender, transsexual, gender-queer, etc, etc, etc.

Why can't we just be transgender and shut up about it? If you want to live full time as a woman, great you're transgender. If you just want to wear women's clothes on tuesdays and sunday, you are transgender.

Yeah I know they have twinks and bears and all that crap but in the public eye it is gay period.

It should be transgender period end of story have a good life.

[Von]

I've only been here a week or so, and 'dressing' for a couple of months. So, I may well be less informed than most people here, and I'm certainly less experienced regarding the subject, but try to think of that as something of an outside perspective - often useful.

When I realized that I liked the idea of dressing in women's clothes, it was upsetting. Part of what bothered me was what that 'made me'. What term(s) could suddenly be accurately applied to me? Terms that are often perceived as derogatory or pejorative.

I'm still trying to figure out which definition best fits me. I know I'm an individual, one of a kind in many ways. No problem with that, but I'll defer to much more eloquent explanations in this thread regarding the usefulness of labels at least some of the time. Maybe it's just a curious nature, or maybe it's just trying to fit in. I'm glad that definitions aside, most people here are accepting, kind, and helpful. I've done quite a bit of reading lately, and i've come to like the term transgender pretty well. I don't know that I'm ready to absolutely apply it to myself, but I think that the fact it is so broad makes it feel easier to fit into.

Therein lies part of the problem I think. My initial thought about applying the term to myself was that it was too broad. Heaped too many people together who covered such a spectrum. My perception had been that transgender meant basically transexual. Which is probably closer to the common usage when I first learned the term as a kid. Which is problem two. The term is evolving. No wonder people don't understand what it means - the meaning has changed.

I think SuperAmanda was suggesting that it might be beneficial to everyone that might fit under the transgender umbrella to identify as such. Despite the diversity there, common prejudices are often shared against - I'll go ahead and say - us. Makes sense. Unity has helped other groups gain acceptance. I don't think anyone wants to force anyone else to self-identify in any particular way. It seems like discussing it, suggesting it, or even encouraging it is reasonable though.

In my time here it's become clear to me that the future holds more of a continuum, a gradient, of gender than the black and white definitions that are currently prevalent. I'm sure I'm not the first person to recognize that - but it's a revelation for me. Seems inevitable, and pretty cool. But until we reach that point at least, I can see the usefulness of setting and owning a common, inclusive definition.

At any rate, Just my initial thoughts on the subject. As someone coming to grips with things, I certainly appreciate the opportunity to listen to and participate in the discussion.

[sissystephanie]

The problem with Amanda's post is that she is using the Wikopedia definitions for TG and TS. Those are not the same as what is commonly found in Psychology textbooks!

A Male TG, using actual definitions, wants not only to dress as a female but also to look and act as femninine as possible. So that he can pass as a female! A Male TS, using the same type of definition, actually wants to become a woman, in every way possible, as Amanda has obviously done!

This informatiion is based on my numerous visits to both Psychologists and Psychiatrists over the 70 years I have been a CD! Yes, I am a CD, and nothing more! I am a man, but I do like to wear feminine clothing on occasion. I have NO desire to pass as a woman, or even to really look like a woman. Sure I wear feminine clothing, but no wig and no makeup! I look like a man in female clothing! That is not what a TG is, not by professional standards!!

But as long as I am called in a timely fashion for dinner, I don't care what you call me!!:heehee:

[TNRobin]

I'm a crossdresser that just happens to want to pass in public. By any definition that I've seen on this thread that makes me a TG; which by the way I'm damn proud of that title.:daydreaming:

[JulieK1980]

cool, so it's okay to go around saying trannie then ?


Sure! Especially since if you use the word tranny, we already know that you don't mean it in an offensive way.

People focus too much on the word. It's the meaning people equate behind the words that should be important.

[Jessica Britton]

I always thought labels were for canned vegetables...

Does it really matter whether we see ourselves as CD, TV, TG, or TS? The important thing is that we treat ourselves AND each other with kindness and dignity. We're all seeking the same thing, no matter what path we're following. To be ourselves, and to be treated fairly and and without prejudice, just like anyone else desires.

[Shananigans]

It matters because it limits confusion and bias. Many SOs wouldn't have the trouble with acceptance that they do if they knew about things like the transgender spectrum and that just because a guy dresses in women's clothes, it doesn't mean he is gay. This has been synonymous in our culture. It causes confusion for SOs and for anyone who is associated with the person who is coming out purely because of ignorance. Sorry, you can say it's apples and oranges...but, I think education on gender issues is extremely lacking and to say that we should just continue with the ignorance and say it's okay is just feeding into it. I hope not to see any of you posting threads about how you were misunderstood then, because it's just apples and oranges...right?

[JulieK1980]

It matters because it limits confusion and bias. Many SOs wouldn't have the trouble with acceptance that they do if they knew about things like the transgender spectrum and that just because a guy dresses in women's clothes, it doesn't mean he is gay. This has been synonymous in our culture. It causes confusion for SOs and for anyone who is associated with the person who is coming out purely because of ignorance. Sorry, you can say it's apples and oranges...but, I think education on gender issues is extremely lacking and to say that we should just continue with the ignorance and say it's okay is just feeding into it. I hope not to see any of you posting threads about how you were misunderstood then, because it's just apples and oranges...right?


It's not about "not educating" Its about using the terminology as a way to divide us.

Ultimately I'm pretty sure we all want the same thing, for the world (and ourselves) to understand us, and accept us. The difference is more in how to go about it. While some wish to categorize us into different groups, I feel we need to take a bigger look at the big picture. If we had a better understanding of our commonalities, it would give us a better understanding of where we fit into the picture.

Educating people is extremely important IMHO, but when we dwell on the differences, and focus on specific little categories of people, we divide ourselves into our own class structure. I've seen numerous examples on this forum, and out in the real world, where someone will say, "there are too many whiny crossdressers" Or they don't understand, "they're just crossdressers"

Things like that sadden me, because it points out the seeming truth that I don't like to see, we are a disjointed group that will have severe difficulty coming together, which (I think) is necessary to advance our equality, and understanding as well as acceptance by the public.

I fully understand the medical necessity of trying to sub-categorize so as to understand our needs better, but while we focus on crossdressing differences and transexual differences, and develop our own little class system, we miss the obvious similarities between the groups.

It would be one thing, if as a whole we celebrated these differences between us all. As we would gain a HUGE insight into different peoples experiences. But we don't, we go on with our own self-pretentiousness, and use the differences as a way to demean other "groups" and justify our own ego.:2c:

[Shananigans]

The argument is not a focus on differences, but the knowledge that a crossdresser is not synonymous with a transsexual. Furthermore, homsexuality is neither synonymous with crossdresser or transsexual. There is a HUGE misconception surrounding the community at large, and you need only scroll the first few pages of threads to see just that: men trying to explain to their SO that they do not want to be a woman and that they do not want to have sex with a man. I realize that there is more of a spectrum, that everyone is an individual...that people discriminate. However, ignorance is not bliss. I wasn't argusing that the terminology should be used to discriminate, only that it should be more understood. And, when a man tries to explain to his wife, "No, I'm a not going to become a woman...I am not a transsexual...I'm a crossdresser," what do you think that is? There are differences and they are used to explain certain circumstances all of the time. However, the general public is vastly ignorant on this subject all together. Furthermore, to embrace something (to reach that community of understanding) you have to UNDERSTAND. The general public has NO idea. I find it frustrating that I have to worry about my boyfriend being hit on by men when he is dressed because people automatically assume he is gay. Or, that if I were to talk to my family about him being a CD, they would automatically assume he was undergoing surgery. There HAS to be more understanding.



It's not about "not educating" Its about using the terminology as a way to divide us.

Educating people is extremely important IMHO, but when we dwell on the differences, and focus on specific little categories of people, we divide ourselves into our own class structure. I've seen numerous examples on this forum, and out in the real world, where someone will say, "there are too many whiny crossdressers" Or they don't understand, "they're just crossdressers"

Things like that sadden me, because it points out the seeming truth that I don't like to see, we are a disjointed group that will have severe difficulty coming together, which (I think) is necessary to advance our equality, and understanding as well as acceptance by the public.

I fully understand the medical necessity of trying to sub-categorize so as to understand our needs better, but while we focus on crossdressing differences and transexual differences, and develop our own little class system, we miss the obvious similarities between the groups.

It would be one thing, if as a whole we celebrated these differences between us all. As we would gain a HUGE insight into different peoples experiences. But we don't, we go on with our own self-pretentiousness, and use the differences as a way to demean other "groups" and justify our own ego.:2c:

[Fab Karen]

This subject is posted about every month I think. It always leads to "Don't call me Shirley" by someone who takes offense
... It always seems to be taken as someone poking a stick into a den of vipers (which are in fact a subset of snakes which is a subset of reptiles....But you immediately saw in your mind a viper not a Bull snake. Point made?)
Surely you're joking about the vipers?:heehee:

[Sara Jessica]

It's not about "not educating" Its about using the terminology as a way to divide us.

If used appropriately, terminology can be descriptive and educational rather than devisive.


It matters because it limits confusion and bias. Many SOs wouldn't have the trouble with acceptance that they do if they knew about things like the transgender spectrum and that just because a guy dresses in women's clothes, it doesn't mean he is gay. This has been synonymous in our culture. It causes confusion for SOs and for anyone who is associated with the person who is coming out purely because of ignorance. Sorry, you can say it's apples and oranges...but, I think education on gender issues is extremely lacking and to say that we should just continue with the ignorance and say it's okay is just feeding into it. I hope not to see any of you posting threads about how you were misunderstood then, because it's just apples and oranges...right?

Well said!!!

[Frédérique]

“The meaning of a word is its use in language” (Wittgenstein)


I always thought labels were for canned vegetables...
Does it really matter whether we see ourselves as CD, TV, TG, or TS? The important thing is that we treat ourselves AND each other with kindness and dignity. We're all seeking the same thing, no matter what path we're following. To be ourselves, and to be treated fairly and without prejudice, just like anyone else desires.

You don’t think we’re canned vegetables? Welcome to the pantry! :heehee:

Yes, I agree we are all seeking the same thing, meeting other “pilgrims” along this formless path we are following. Treating each other with kindness and dignity is what it’s all about, an exercise in humility and understanding that transcends the prejudice on display in everyday life. I liken this place to an oasis of ultra gender-unspecific exploration, where members from all sorts of backgrounds meet to discuss their “findings.” If you are CD, TV, TG, or TS, I naturally like you, and I welcome you as my long-lost friend. I only disagree with one’s sensibilities that clash with the transgendered expression one may embrace, or be at odds with, but that is trivial and rare….


I fully understand the medical necessity of trying to sub-categorize so as to understand our needs better, but while we focus on crossdressing differences and transexual differences, and develop our own little class system, we miss the obvious similarities between the groups.
It would be one thing, if as a whole we celebrated these differences between us all. As we would gain a HUGE insight into different peoples experiences. But we don't, we go on with our own self-pretentiousness, and use the differences as a way to demean other "groups" and justify our own ego.

Well, I agree there are “obvious similarities” between the groups, since we are all lumped together on this site for better or worse, but I don’t perceive the “class system” you’re talking about. Labels and categorizations don’t bother me at all, because we are living in a language-conscious period of time – it is consistently amusing to me that some crossdressers have such problems with identifiable names, medical necessity notwithstanding. Once you come HERE you will come up against the barrier of labels, but what of it? Is it so terrible to find out what you are, and that there are others who don’t share your particular take on the indefinable lifestyle you are engaged in? Since I’ve been here I have gained the aforesaid “huge insight” into experiences within the transgendered world – all variations therein are my sisters and brothers, no matter what my particular “take” on things may be. I came here to learn, period. Transgender is a curious word thought up by others (did I miss a meeting?), but I suppose it has to be called something. My preferred word for this cherished, magical “world” is beautiful…:)

[JulieK1980]

The argument is not a focus on differences, but the knowledge that a crossdresser is not synonymous with a transsexual. Furthermore, homsexuality is neither synonymous with crossdresser or transsexual. There is a HUGE misconception surrounding the community at large, and you need only scroll the first few pages of threads to see just that: men trying to explain to their SO that they do not want to be a woman and that they do not want to have sex with a man. I realize that there is more of a spectrum, that everyone is an individual...that people discriminate. However, ignorance is not bliss. I wasn't argusing that the terminology should be used to discriminate, only that it should be more understood. And, when a man tries to explain to his wife, "No, I'm a not going to become a woman...I am not a transsexual...I'm a crossdresser," what do you think that is? There are differences and they are used to explain certain circumstances all of the time. However, the general public is vastly ignorant on this subject all together. Furthermore, to embrace something (to reach that community of understanding) you have to UNDERSTAND. The general public has NO idea. I find it frustrating that I have to worry about my boyfriend being hit on by men when he is dressed because people automatically assume he is gay. Or, that if I were to talk to my family about him being a CD, they would automatically assume he was undergoing surgery. There HAS to be more understanding.


The positive side is, we both have the same ultimate goal, we just differ on the way to achieve it.:)

I do believe a lot of the people have missed the point I'm trying to make, but I'm at a loss of how to explain my thoughts better. I'll dwell on it, and beat the dead horse till I come up with a better way to express it.

In the mean time have a drink on me! :drink: coz I am! :hugs:

[ReneeT]

Wow..... this is deep.....

"What is the meaning of "is"?" W.J Clinton

I humbly suggest we all go back and read Tamara"s post (#11)

Renee
"Just a Tranny"

[Anneliese]

I have a great idea. We do like they do in cars and computer software. Just release different versions!


I think all these labels are destructive.

You don't have gay-light, gay-standard, and gay-professional so why have drossdresser, transvestite, drag(king/queen), transgender, transsexual, gender-queer, etc, etc, etc.

Why can't we just be transgender and shut up about it? If you want to live full time as a woman, great you're transgender. If you just want to wear women's clothes on tuesdays and sunday, you are transgender.

Yeah I know they have twinks and bears and all that crap but in the public eye it is gay period.

It should be transgender period end of story have a good life.

Agreed! We are who we are. We're different. Who gives a flying you-know-what what the terminology is?

I'm sorry, but one of the most hysterical groups posting here are the CDers who talk all macho and het. You CD, you ain't macho, ok? I have, up until this time, never had a gay or bi experience, but I realize my CDing puts me into another category of theoretical straights. I am open to ALL possibilities and am not in way shamed to admit it.

[Sammy777]

cool, so it's okay to go around saying trannie then ?

Sure
As long as your talking about your car to your mechanic :lol2:

[ReineD]

Having an umbrella term is a good thing. The members here don't specify their gender IDs, either in their posts or under their names. So it's handy to have a generalized term to use in posts if you don't want to insult anyone. If I'm using an example of a relationship in a response, I'd hate to say to an OP who is a married CD and who identifies as a man, *a TS, or a woman, and her wife*. And I don't think an OP who is a transwoman married to a GG would appreciate reading, *a CD, or a man, and her wife* either. And not everyone has representational avatars. Plus, the likenesses in avatars are so small that it is hard to tell many times who is who. Especially if I'm not wearing my glasses. lol.

*TG* is just a safe term to use if you haven't read many posts by a person and you don't know their details. So it does confuse things even further when people equate TG with TS, while others equate TG with CD. And it is maddening when the members of a community refuse to accept what are widely accepted definitions, and stubbornly insist on using their own. [EDIT - or none! It makes it difficult to use descriptive language.]

Honestly, it reminds me of my kids, each insisting on having their very own branch to decorate on the Christmas tree, when there was the entire tree to think of. This is acceptable behavior among children, but not in adults.

:2c:

[shayleetv]

Shakespeare wrote,"A rose is a rose, is a rose. By any other name would smell as sweet." OR in some opinions here would stink. There are some here who just don't like to be labeled and that in it self becomes a label. As for me, I have been in my life, labeled unjustly for other things than my girly ways. But I have found ways to live with it and made it a positive factor for good in my life. Right now I will answer to anything that seems to please you or anyone else. After all it is not the label that I hang on me that's important, it is the label that others hang on me that defines me to the world. The trick it seems is to somehow convince people that we are just people and not all those other labels that don't mean much more than another way of saying your different. And different in this case is not a compliment.

[CherryZips]

I'd like to defend labels.

They're useful for good reasons.

-Avoids Confusion; if you don't have labels it leads to miscommunication - with post op ts being seen as fetishists that have taken it too far and married cds being asked how the hormones are going.

-Personally Useful; would it really be better to grow up as a kid and be told well there's just this group of people who do stuff. Or is it better to hear the subtle variations and different roles there are? If you want a happy life isn't it better that you can read up on things and see who you might be so you can make better decisions on your life path by learning from others? Just because you remove the signs doesn't stop their being paths (which there clearly are) but it does stop being getting to where we might be happy faster.

-Understanding; I'm not generally a fan of social revolution but if people want accepted for being who they are pretending there are no labels isn't going to help. Understanding ourselves lets people know basic things like; we're not harmful to them and how they should interact with our different needs. We have more labels now for ordinary psychological states and we are better for it.

-Dignity; people are different, differences have names. If we all have to be the same in order to get on then thats no kind of acceptance. If you can't label yourself maybe you're not accepting yourself?

-Realistic; whether we want it or not the groupings exist, and yes groups can mean hierarchies. But those class systems are going to appear anyway. Better to name things and recognise those follies for what they are.

Did that sound angry? I'm not angry at all. Just fascinated by the topic. Maybe there should be sociology section? Or would that be divisive? :heehee:

I regard myself as crossdresser for erotic purposes and mild gender reasons and I see myself as being on the transgender spectrum. I can see some transexuals might have a problem with that and I can understand that and thats why I believe in subtler labels.

Of course I don't have a handy list to produce.....which is where my point falls down. :o

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I am she as you are he as we are all together ..
or something like that..

i hope we all want the same thing...peace on earth and good will towards men...and women, and we are all equal as human beings in every way

but there is a huge fundamental gap between what a crossdresser is, and what a transsexual is... there just is...

men are men...women are women...the fact that i changed my outside appearance, and even my internal parts!! to be myself is different than expressing a feminine side...its black and white...

in my opinion, that's all a big reason why you will find lots of transwomen say "i'm not transgender..i'm a woman"... and others that are ok with saying they are transgender don't like it so much when a person that is into crossdressing on the weekends says they are transgender too..it just doesnt feel right..

this is all just my opinion,
but when an outsider looks to understand "us", how does it help if their understanding is wrong?

if i walk into a place of work, female, but known as ts, still anatomically incorrect and i need to go to the bathroom, i can get in trouble..i might not even get hired because an HR manager quietly advises sr mgmt that it may be a problem
it impacts my livelyhood.....that has nothing whatsoever to do with crossdressing..its not crossdressing....saying we are the same doesnt help me at all...thats a selfish example but its true..

i respect that you can do and say what you want. but that's how if affects me..and theres not a whole bunch i can do about it...the cat is out of the bag, and the world pretty much accepts the term transgender as inclusive

but i'm compelled to stand up for my own identity, and its totally fair for everyone else to do the same

[lizbendalin]

As someone who goes to schools and other locations to educate students and the general public on the transgender community I have a specific interest in the use of terms.

I think it is of utmost importance that we can settle on some standard usage and understanding of words. All of us have the self-interest to be able to define who we are. We all want to be us, whatever that us is. When we all have different definitions and understandings of shared words, when we say to someone we are TG, TS, TV CD, GQ or whatever, all we do is muddy the waters as they may have heard those exact same terms being used in completely different ways. If we are at all interested in gaining greater acceptance and understanding from the "normal" population we must move toward a common usage of these words.

And just a note, one cannot be transgendered, one is transgender. You say "I am transgender", or "s/he is transgender." You cannot be transgendered, that's like saying someone is straighted, or gayed, or asianed, or Britished; it goes against the rules of the English language.
:2c:

[Anneliese]

Reading posts here would indicate some are certain of exactly who and what they are. Others are constantly evolving, while still others are confused. I am a CD who has never known anything but hetero relationships who would may be transitioning to TS. I have little to no desire for women...or men...but am ridiculously turned on by pre-op transsexuals (including myself dressed) but have not yet acted on this. So, if a CDer is turned on by those who are TS, what label does one place on them? Transgender might cover it temporarily.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

you are what you are...the fact that some of us have not figured it out doesnt change what you "really" are...

in fact, the labels may make it worse for you...especially if you somoehow view one label as more or less desirable..
if you just defined yourself as "a person that likes...." or as "a person that is.." and then fill in the blanks yourself then there would be no problem...evolving over time is about what you think of yourself, not what you "are" or what you "like to do"

[Shananigans]

Reading posts here would indicate some are certain of exactly who and what they are. Others are constantly evolving, while still others are confused. I am a CD who has never known anything but hetero relationships who would may be transitioning to TS. I have little to no desire for women...or men...but am ridiculously turned on by pre-op transsexuals (including myself dressed) but have not yet acted on this. So, if a CDer is turned on by those who are TS, what label does one place on them? Transgender might cover it temporarily.

You are an individual...but, I might note that I would have had no f'ing idea what you were talking about had you not used labels. That's where the hippie love view of complete unity and lack of labels ends...when I can't understand your personal situation, or what the hell you are saying. Labels and definition are used for clarity and understanding. You exemplified this by using a variety of them in your paragraph to explain your situation, but at the end you are your own individual.

[Pink Person]

A transgender person is someone who self-identifies as one gender but has some significant qualities that are commonly associated with the opposite gender. A transsexual person is someone who self-identifies as one sex but has some significant qualities that are commonly associated with the opposite sex.

A cisgender person is someone who self-identifies as one gender and doesn’t have any significant qualities that are commonly associated with the opposite gender. A cissexual person is someone who self-identifies as one sex and doesn’t have any significant qualities that are commonly associated with the opposite sex.

Transgender people are transmasculine or transfeminine.

Transsexual people are transmale or transfemale.

Cisgender people are masculine or feminine.

Cissexual people are male or female.

Gender is a general formal and functional characteristic. Sex is a specific formal characteristic.

People who self-identify as one gender but dress like the opposite gender are transgender, not cisgender. Get a second opinion from any cisgender person if you need one.

Of course, all transgender people and cisgender people come in many variations. However, there is no intersection between these two groups.

Burly studs who wear dresses are not really burly studs, sorry to say, but some of them are very cute in a very transgender (not cisgender) non-manly manner.

P.S. Transsexual and cissexual are both sex types, not sexuality types. This post is about gender types and sex types, not about sexuality types. Honestly, I would prefer the terms transsex and cissex to transsexual and cissexual, but I am deferring to common usage in defining sex types. I am definitely not discussing any sexuality types (hetero, homo, or bi) or their relationship to gender types and sex types in this post.

[Lorileah]

We all want to understand. We want to understand who a person is. We want to understand who we are. And in this forum we are all different, we know that much. If we were all the same it would be at best boring. But why do we insist on separating ourselves from each other even more?


you are what you are...the fact that some of us have not figured it out doesnt change what you "really" are...

No you are who you are but when you need something to describe who you are for rights and legislation and academia you are a part of a group. It looks here like some people who say they don't like labels actually latch on to a label. A more specific label like "I am a TS! not a CD!" but then say don't label me.




but there is a huge fundamental gap between what a crossdresser is, and what a transsexual is... there just is...



There is? This is the ultimate in labeling and borders on elitism. It gets back to the "us" vs "them" again. It sin't a battle. It isn't a class war but somehow it always gets back to that. Somewhere along the line someone here starts the "you can't possibly understand what I am going through because YOU are not one of me." We are all in the same boat here and if we don't start rowing together we will die of starvation. This is a continuum not a linear progression. We don't all "evolve" into getting surgery and finishing our lives living as women. But we are all in that "boat" of being able to get jobs, keep jobs, get housing, even, yes dare I say it, use the restroom. Let's get off the I am something YOU can never understand. I will never be a lot of things but that does not mean I don't work to understand those things.

The word transgenderism (be it noun, verb, adjective whatever) is the current term that will help define people who fall under the gender dysphoria group. If you are post-op TS and you are a woman...great. If you are a TS no matter what physical surgery you may or may not have you are transgender(ed) and if you want the rights that ENDA and other laws are going to provide (hopefully) you will have to accept that.

Be specific about who you are. Ok. But also be assured that that specificity is a part of a broader group. Can you imagine where civil rights would be now if each individual ethnicity decided they didn't want to part of the larger group?

Enough TS vs CD stuff OK? Especially when we don't even have the same definitions of what each of those are. We are one group


I am she as you are he as we are all together ..
or something like that..

its black and white...



No it isn't. And you make that point in your post later. But yes we are all together.

[ReineD]

I Hope My Mom Doesn’t Think This Is Childish

No, not childish at all. At least you're willing to discuss it and come up with alternative meanings if you disagree with prior posts. :)

I don't doubt your definitions, but are they your own, or can you cite where they come from if you got them from somewhere? I'd like to learn more about them, thanks.


You exemplified this by using a variety of them in your paragraph to explain your situation, but at the end you are your own individual.
Well said, Shananigans!

So there are three debates. One, whether or not there should be an unbrella term for anyone who is not cis; two, whether we should have terms to explain who individuals are within the trans community; three, whether or not we should agree on the terms, and if we do, how do we reach a concensus.

[JulieK1980]

We all want to understand. We want to understand who a person is. We want to understand who we are. And in this forum we are all different, we know that much. If we were all the same it would be at best boring. But why do we insist on separating ourselves from each other even more?



No you are who you are but when you need something to describe who you are for rights and legislation and academia you are a part of a group. It looks here like some people who say they don't like labels actually latch on to a label. A more specific label like "I am a TS! not a CD!" but then say don't label me.



There is? This is the ultimate in labeling and borders on elitism. It gets back to the "us" vs "them" again. It sin't a battle. It isn't a class war but somehow it always gets back to that. Somewhere along the line someone here starts the "you can't possibly understand what I am going through because YOU are not one of me." We are all in the same boat here and if we don't start rowing together we will die of starvation. This is a continuum not a linear progression. We don't all "evolve" into getting surgery and finishing our lives living as women. But we are all in that "boat" of being able to get jobs, keep jobs, get housing, even, yes dare I say it, use the restroom. Let's get off the I am something YOU can never understand. I will never be a lot of things but that does not mean I don't work to understand those things.

The word transgenderism (be it noun, verb, adjective whatever) is the current term that will help define people who fall under the gender dysphoria group. If you are post-op TS and you are a woman...great. If you are a TS no matter what physical surgery you may or may not have you are transgender(ed) and if you want the rights that ENDA and other laws are going to provide (hopefully) you will have to accept that.

Be specific about who you are. Ok. But also be assured that that specificity is a part of a broader group. Can you imagine where civil rights would be now if each individual ethnicity decided they didn't want to part of the larger group?

Enough TS vs CD stuff OK? Especially when we don't even have the same definitions of what each of those are. We are one group



No it isn't. And you make that point in your post later. But yes we are all together.

This is EXACTLY what I was trying to sputter out my thoughts in my post! lol! Very well said!

[msniki48]

I just posted a comment about this, but I think it deserves a thread.

*Transgender
is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from the usual gender roles.*



So pretty much everyone on this site except for SOs and admirers are transgendered, why is that so hard for some to accept?

!


Transgendered...involving tendencies to vary from the usual gender roles..

Amanda that describes so many of us here...me included. i feel i am TG...I cross dress to express that side of me. There are also many members of the site, that do not in any way try to present as female, and dress or underdress more for sexual enjoyment...as soon as they are done ...off comes the clothing....and they are back to being a guy. I don't think that is TG.

so i believe that not only the SO's...are not TG, but we have some other members here that simply cross dress to cross dress:heehee:


hugs:hugs:.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Hi Lorileah...i think we've had this debate in different ways before...

First off i have to say i disagree with your premise regarding elitism...i'm quite offended by your inference and I bet just about anybody here who has read my thousands of posts will see that i am anything but elitist.

the only way you can say that is if somehow you equate the word crossdresser as more negative than transsexual...where did i say that? nowhere.

i hear you on your point about saying no labels and then using them...i can't figure a way around it and reasonably discuss this issue......if you want to get semantic about it, i can only say i'm quite guilty but was trying to comment on the "label" of transgender for a large inclusive group of people...and although i used the words ts and cd....i would argue that we (and pretty much everybody here) know the difference..having similar experiences is not the same as being the same..the fact that we have shared similar experiences like going outside and being scared because of what we wear is one major way that we are all the same

i''m not even remotely saying that you can't understand something...

i'm saying that if you say you are man and dress, and i say i'm a woman and dress, our motives are totally different...they are not the same...the fact that our motives and goals are different matters..but neither is better.

however, i am saying that you don't dress up in women's clothes at work, I'm saying that you have no bathroom issue where you work, i'm saying that you don't go to a job interview in a skirt, longish hair and makeup..and worry about whether they know, or whether they care.. you don't have your credit cards taken away from you, you don't spend $100,000 of thousands of dollars to improve your quality of life..you are less likely to lose your wife and family....you don't get turned away by doctors and most importantly you don't view yourself as someone that is basically nonexistent until you are able to change gender roles..you don't take life threatening drugs because the alternative is life threatening as well...
do you view all this as elitist? as false?... btw a crossdressing guy has every right to do all of the above, why doesnt he? i'll answer my own question..because he's not transsexual..and has no desire to be...and if he does desire it...then i bet dollars to donuts he's on the way to some self serious self discovery

the fact that i have all these problems and you don't doesnt mean you don't have alot of problems too....it doesnt mean that there is something you can't understand, and i certainly don't think my problems are better than yours, or anybody elses for that matter...

you simply cannot say "enough with the cd and ts stuff" and get away with it.....it matters. there are CD"s and there are TS's ...that doesnt make it a competition, that doesnt mean one is better ...and i never said it was...

i wouldnt have put such a long answer but calling me elitist pisses me off...i have an opinion, i shared it..i said i don't know the answer but this is how it feels to me...why you have such a problem with me is a mystery to me..

[Shananigans]

Hi Lorileah...i think we've had this debate in different ways before...

First off i have to say i disagree with your premise regarding elitism...i'm quite offended by your inference and I bet just about anybody here who has read my thousands of posts will see that i am anything but elitist.

the only way you can say that is if somehow you equate the word crossdresser as more negative than transsexual...where did i say that? nowhere.

i hear you on your point about saying no labels and then using them...i can't figure a way around it and reasonably discuss this issue......if you want to get semantic about it, i can only say i'm quite guilty but was trying to comment on the "label" of transgender for a large inclusive group of people...and although i used the words ts and cd....i would argue that we (and pretty much everybody here) know the difference..having similar experiences is not the same as being the same..the fact that we have shared similar experiences like going outside and being scared because of what we wear is one major way that we are all the same

i''m not even remotely saying that you can't understand something...

i'm saying that if you say you are man and dress, and i say i'm a woman and dress, our motives are totally different...they are not the same...the fact that our motives and goals are different matters..but neither is better.

however, i am saying that you don't dress up in women's clothes at work, I'm saying that you have no bathroom issue where you work, i'm saying that you don't go to a job interview in a skirt, longish hair and makeup..and worry about whether they know, or whether they care.. you don't have your credit cards taken away from you, you don't spend $100,000 of thousands of dollars to improve your quality of life..you are less likely to lose your wife and family....you don't get turned away by doctors and most importantly you don't view yourself as someone that is basically nonexistent until you are able to change gender roles..you don't take life threatening drugs because the alternative is life threatening as well...
do you view all this as elitist? as false?... btw a crossdressing guy has every right to do all of the above, why doesnt he? i'll answer my own question..because he's not transsexual..and has no desire to be...and if he does desire it...then i bet dollars to donuts he's on the way to some self serious self discovery

the fact that i have all these problems and you don't doesnt mean you don't have alot of problems too....it doesnt mean that there is something you can't understand, and i certainly don't think my problems are better than yours, or anybody elses for that matter...

you simply cannot say "enough with the cd and ts stuff" and get away with it.....it matters. there are CD"s and there are TS's ...that doesnt make it a competition, that doesnt mean one is better ...and i never said it was...

i wouldnt have put such a long answer but calling me elitist pisses me off...i have an opinion, i shared it..i said i don't know the answer but this is how it feels to me...why you have such a problem with me is a mystery to me..

That sums everything up perfectly. Using labels isn't a way to say that one group is "better" than the other, only that there are differences between the two. Of course, as you stated, there are similarities. There are similarities between all people...so, I don't know how that is really type of argument at all. We are all people and so we are one and blah blah. We have labels because there are differences between people. Differences make us unique. They give us a face. As you pointed out, knowing the difference between a transsexual and a crossdresser helps us understand the different internal struggles between the two.

Hell, if everyone hates labels...let's not say "ladies" or "girls" or "boys" or "female." Let's not call it "en femme"...it becomes laughable...it becomes stupid...it becomes a childish.

Labels are wrong when used to say that there is group superiority but NO ONE on here is arguing that, so I don't know why it has been brought up.

I am a unique individual. I am described by a variety of labels. You might call me bisexual. You might call me a woman. You might call me an intellectual. You might call me a bitch.

And, you'd be right.

[Lorileah]

i'm quite offended by your inference and I bet just about anybody here who has read my thousands of posts will see that i am anything but elitist.

And I apologize for hurting your feelings. How about I change that to certain transsexuals on this forum? Maybe you aren't in that group but the way I read your post read that way top me. It still kind of does with
i'm saying that if you say you are man and dress, and i say i'm a woman and dress, our motives are totally different...they are not the same... which if a "CD" by your definition reads it says "hey I am entitled you are just doing it for fun." There are some of us here who aren't either/or which is the point of the definition argument for using an inclusive word like transgender (note the medium is a problem because what one writes is not necessarily what one meant). There are a lot of us here (N.B. the word "us") who are not men in a dress and who for whatever reason cannot call ourselves transsexuals. Why? Because we have been told in so many words that is you ain't gonna get surgery you ain't a TS. Your post seemed to define people who are real vs people who play act. Again, probably not what you meant to say but that is how I read it and I think many more will also


the only way you can say that is if somehow you equate the word crossdresser as more negative than transsexual...where did i say that? nowhere. No but that is the inference I get. See above


i''m not even remotely saying that you can't understand something... and here is my mea culpa, I didn't mean to infer that I didn't understand. I was saying that the words are used to help people understand


however, i am saying that you don't dress up in women's clothes at work Bad assumption on your part, I do at least wear 50-75% "women's" apparel every day
I'm saying that you have no bathroom issue where you work, i'm saying that you don't go to a job interview in a skirt, longish hair and makeup..and worry about whether they know, or whether they care.. you don't have your credit cards taken away from you, you don't spend $100,000 of thousands of dollars to improve your quality of life..you are less likely to lose your wife and family....you don't get turned away by doctors and most importantly you don't view yourself as someone that is basically nonexistent until you are able to change gender roles..you don't take life threatening drugs because the alternative is life threatening as well...
do you view all this as elitist? You don't see that? You just said that you seem to be more entitled over these issues that you see as only TS...
btw a crossdressing guy has every right to do all of the above, why doesnt he? i'll answer my own question..because he's not transsexual..and has no desire to be...and if he does desire it...then i bet dollars to donuts he's on the way to some self serious self discovery Again you don't see how you are saying that your issues are not the issues faced by others here who are not calling themselves TS?



you simply cannot say "enough with the cd and ts stuff" and get away with it.....it matters. there are CD"s and there are TS's ...that doesnt make it a competition, that doesnt mean one is better ...and i never said it was... but you have issues that you don't see others as having. OK I am not fighting this any further. It isn't an either/or proposition. It is a collective issue for all persons who are transgender. A "CD" can lose a job, home, money, life just as easily as a "TS". Yet for some reason some TS's here seem to think they are at a higher risk.

Sorry, if I angered you. Sorry if I struck a nerve. I am not here to anger anyone in that manner. It is not the first time I have painted with a broad brush and appeared to be singling someone out. And it is not an indictment to all the transsexuals (no matter where you see yourself on that spectrum) but to the ones who seem to think that some of us are not in the same situation. It isn't just clothes. It isn't part time fun vs full time life.

With that, I am off this thread.

[Fab Karen]

..having similar experiences is not the same as being the same..the fact that we have shared similar experiences like going outside and being scared because of what we wear is one major way that we are all the same

We say SIMILAR, we don't say being CD & TS are exactly the same. There are some differences, but some ( not most ) TS's throw around the idea that there's NOTHING in common. Those same people should know there are GG's who'll say the same thing to them- not very nice or even correct, but they talk in black-&-white terms as well. And for example, there are people who feel 50-50 male & female, neither totally in one box or another.
A post-op TS woman will never know share exactly the same experiences as a GG. Should GG's shun them because of this? ( this is not directed at you, I'm not making an assumption about you shunning someone )

[Kelly DeWinter]

Why can't we all just get along ?

This old argument is a prime example of why I really try to avoid terms/lables, but sometime you just need something to put you hand on while communication.

Throughout history words have started out to mean one thing and evolved to mean something else.

Sometimes a word starts as one thing and ends up meaning something different to a different generation.

if you called someone a 'dog' 15 years ago, now teens and young men use the term as a term of comraderie as in "yo ! Dog ! "

'gay' 20 years ago ment happy and have come to describe men who are sexualy attracted to men.

(Moderators take this next one in context with the post please. and if you must ban me do it for a short time)

Sometimes a word can be offensive in one era and inoffensive in another for certain groups of people. 50 years ago whites call blacks 'nigger' as an offensive term, Today blacks use the term as one of connection in brotherhood, while whites tenderly refer to it as the "N Word".

15 years ago trangender or crossdressers were seen as a group of people either seriously mentaly ill or seriously degenerate in their morals.

In this our current generation Transgender or crossdresser, reffers to a group of people who identify as either the opposite, or abiguious of their birth gender.

15 years ago trangender or crossdressers were seen as a group of people either seriously mentaly ill or seriously degenerate in their morals.

I prefer where we are today and where we are heading, I have spoken to people who have said things like:

"My FRIEND is a crossdresser."
"My SISTER is transgendered"
"I went out with a group of people and 1 or 2 was a crossdresser and we had a WONDERFUL time."
"so and so is a LOVELY crossdresser."


So why argue on a terms that is so fluid that 3-4 years from now will most likely mean something we may all actually like ?

"Shes so HOT she's got to be a Crossdresser !"
"You really rock that transgender look"

Kelly

[JulieK1980]

If we are going to debate the defining labels, and definitions. It would be worth noting the medical communities diagnostic labels for us.

All mental health issues are defined by the DSM, which is the psychology/psychiatry version of the physician's desk reference. If someone were to attempt to transition, they would need a diagnosis from this book to begin the process. No other terms are acceptable in the medical community. However that said, this book is revised every year, and one of the current debates in psychology is whether the current terms are accurate, and we may see revisions in the next several years for all gender identity issues.

Here is a link to an overview of the DSM labels that pertain to us. (The book itself can be found at most bookstores, or your local library, just make sure its a current edition)

http://www.mental-health-today.com/gender/dsm.htm

[Karen564]

1st, I have to say that I cringe when I see these types of threads now, because it always brings out the label haters..and then it slowly gets all argumentative & ugly..

I think all Amanda was trying to do was offer some basic education without getting way too technical..and probably offered this because lately, we've been seeing too many confused soles mixing up these basic terms up on this site...
Only problem is, in a few months time, we'll see more newbies & be right back to square one again...

As far as I'm concerned, the term Transgender (TG) fits 99.8% of the members here...

Trans- = Across, to cross over ....

I read here that some say they are not TG because they only dress for fun, and others say they still look like a guy when their wearing female clothes so their not TG...
Sorry Charlie, but if you are repeatedly dressing up as the opposite gender you were born as, fun or not, you are still TG...and if you don't believe it, then your just fooling yourself..

If you had zero TG feelings at all, then you wouldn't be dressing as the opposite gender more than one time,... period....
So obviously, there must be something in that brain of yours telling you to do it & cross that gender boundary for whatever reasons & also take it serious enough to join a site such as this ...and of course this is excluding the SO's & some of the admirers that come here for their own reasons..but this isn't about them really..

But as far as being TS....That's another story....lol

In here, I'm a TS woman, but outside of here, I'm just a woman..

[DonniDarkness]

I am relatively new here, and i have to say this topic is by far, the most interesting topic i have seen since my first thread read on this site.

This topic states, asks and demands, in a way, a level of unity from us all on how we label oursleves.

Just to amplify this topic: most people associate this topic (viewed in third party by me; as a "bi-gendered part-time-girl, full time husband")((if i may label myself here)) as people who are socially unstable....hence where the "Wild Bill" and "rocky Horror guy" jokes come from in the general interaction in the world; full of labeling, self-absorbed and close minded population with a dedicated un-faultering mindset to be just like the next person...Pant pant pant.....But i have been a people watcher and artist much longer than i have been an admitted CD, and i feel i am somewhat biased in this.....

Being a lover of the human "Social Pecking Order" that society creates, i find myself intrigued, even as a trans-whatever semi-young person, I too agree, that if there were a social TG standard that it would be easier to explain "who we are" as individuals" using the TG Spectrum as a guideline.

Somehow as man, woman, child, human, and earthlings; we have to finally decide what we call ourselves as a whole!

We all meet here, despite our differences, some are post op, pre op, mid transition, submissives, fetishists, full transitions, GG's, GM's, MTF, FTM, Role players, Fantasy artists, and the all to occasional lurker or admirer.

We really do need to decide on something that fits us all...and not out of a book wrote by stuffy psyche professors... a real answer to this as a comunity....

Sorry, i feel like im somewhat ranting, but i do have a valid point in all this

Hugs,
-Donni-

[Kaitlyn Michele]

for crying out loud..

elitist? i am entitled to shit. i am an elite as much as the ocean is an elephant..

are u saying that a ts is not more likely to lose a wife than a cd? that you want to use women's bathrooms at work? that you get turned down by doctors for life giving medicine?? cmon...get real ...i'm just talking about real life...your situation is just as important and meaningful as mine...i think its great you wear some women's clothes to work...however if you identify as a man...you have different issues than i do, you have options that i don't, you have issues that i don't...we both want to be accepted, but that doesnt mean i'm ok with you or anyone co-opting my identity.. i accept you, but you don't seem to want to accept me..

having "more" problems to deal with doesnt make you elite
if i am in debt for a million and they are taking my house, and you are in debt for a thousand and they are charging you extra interest, am i elitist because i have more problems than you? because i owe more than you?

Karen, i hear you....the commonalities are many, especially as it relates to how badly we need to do "whatever it is we do", and how badly the world tends to treat us, and often how many of us tend to have alot of anxiety and depression issues especially during our youths.....

i liked your gg comment...its a big issue..and it actually highlights my point in bright shining lights..a gg is a woman, a gm is a man...and a crossdresser is a man... I'm not a man..i'm a woman, but frankly many people don't accept this......especially if i can't look very much like a woman, ...its a pretty big problem and it has nothing whatsoever to do with crossdressing.

the similarities are many, but in my opinion there is also a huge fundamental difference...and that one difference is literally the essence of being transsexual.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Ok everyone, lets not take this personal, we are having a discussion. It can continue to be an interesting civilized discussion, or a moderator will shut it down.

[olga]

the similarities are many, but in my opinion there is also a huge fundamental difference...and that one difference is literally the essence of being transsexual.

Please, everyone. Take a deep breath, and try to step out of your body. Imagine yourself just as your soul, detached from any physical manifestation. No clothes, no apparel, no accessories, no one looking at your appearance, nobody judging your image.

Are you a man, or are you a woman?


olga

[Von]

Please, everyone. Take a deep breath, and try to step out of your body. Imagine yourself just as your soul, detached from any physical manifestation. No clothes, no apparel, no accessories, no one looking at your appearance, nobody judging your image.

Are you a man, or are you a woman?


olga

I've never heard that before. How cool. I just fell asleep though (I assume that means I'm a man). Actually (I didnt fall asleep), the closest I got was genderless. But, unable to idle my engine, the thought that crept in was that I don't think I want an answer that excludes either one.

----

Maybe it's because I'm new here - and new to serious consideration of the subject, but it's a compelling thread. My take is that everyone has made valid points that contribute to my understanding at least. I would be surprised if there was a consensus - I'm glad to hear polite debate from any viewpoint.

Personally, I continue to think that an umbrella term would benefit everyone under that umbrella as a social and political force. Nonetheless, I do understand if any group feels the need to distinguish between themselves and any other group without any implied value judgement. My argument would just be that those should perhaps be considered subgroups being distinguished between rather than groups. As I noted earlier, I'm not really sure where I fit yet. Maybe I never will be. If I decided to tell anyone (outside this community at least) that I was transgender, I would fully expect their next question to be "So...what does that mean...?" - expecting clarification.

Maybe it's logical for everyone remotely on the TG spectrum to identify as a part of that spectrum for our mutual benefit - without any need to sacrifice their more specific identity if & when they feel that distinction is important.

But don't quote me on that (smiley face that I can't seem to insert from my phone goes here).

[Sheila]

Maybe it's because I'm new here - and new to serious consideration of the subject, but it's a compelling thread.

Maybe it's logical for everyone remotely on the TG spectrum to identify as a part of that spectrum for our mutual benefit - without any need to sacrifice their more specific identity if & when they feel that distinction is important.

well you might be new here, but you sure do talk sense to me :) (mind the fact that I think it sense, that could discredit the point :rofl:)



But don't quote me on that (smiley face that I can't seem to insert from my phone goes here)................ inserts smiley for von ;) :)

ooopssssssss I just did :D:D

[Deborah Jane]

Here's to unity!

Having followed this thread through so far and noting to myself that it has gone the same way that these types of thread always do, all I can say regarding unity among is..........

We don't have a hope in hell!!!

[MrKunk]

I concider myself to be a crossdresser and to be transgender. As said earlier other
terminology means little when describing myself. However I will honor what others
want to refer to themselves as. Oh and I will stay educated on the terms and backgrounds
of those terms. But also as said earlier don't get runs in your tights and your panties in a
wad over this okay? We are all here for a common reason.

[Lori_Anne]

I do not label my social, sexual or spiritual orientation , I do not like to use labels it creates an unnecessary barrier between people and their connections to one another, to nature, and to the Seen and Unseen worlds.

Just like when I say I'm from Alaska and you are from the lower 48. This put's a certain degree of separation between us even though we are both Americans.

Witch in turn put's a certain degree of separation between us and other nations even though we are all part of the same world and we are all Human Beings.

The truth as I see it, is that the arrangement of the universe and the full harmony and tone of mankind, is a mighty universal dance, choreographed for the perfection and fulfillment of each participant, we are all a small part of the same Universe and all connected.

We are not and have never been separate, there are no borders, no labels and no flags to separate us from one another spiritually.

“There are many paths all leading to the same mountain top.”
Buddha


BTW, A turtle is aquatic and a tortis lives on land!

[Kelly DeWinter]

[QUOTE=Lori_Anne;2162676]
“There are many paths all leading to the same mountain top.”
Buddha

[QUOTE]

"..... but you only need one path from the top to comprehend the meaning of gravity "

DeWinter

[Tamara Croft]

Can't you girls/guys discuss anything on this board without getting into arguments? Obviously not... so here's what is going to happen now...

THREAD LOCKED!